Alther_Primus
Alther_Primus
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Honestly the way I see it it's going to be a buff for people that want to play every killer the same, but most likely will be a nerf for the people that actually took the time to learn his gimmicks.
Also, I despise the fact that he's a setup killer now. They're so boring to play as IMO, so now the only reason I feel to play Freddy is character loyalty, and that's not a good feeling.
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I would have voted Freddy, but with the looming rework I can't say that in good faith, so I put my second favorite: The Doctor.
Freddy is my favorite because of all of his mindgames, stalling, and tracking potential combined with the fact that he's Freddy Krueger, how can I not enjoy that?
Doctor is a solid number 2-potentially ascending to number 1- because he's also a decent stall killer with tracking. More importantly on Doc though is how satisfying the screams and explosions of generators are while I laugh alongside the Doctor.
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Honestly, as much as I don't want the rework to come, as much as I hate the fact that they sacrificed his rather unique gameplan for stalling with hit and run for a boring trap killer, I know it's coming. Might as well throw out what some new addons might be.
If they make Dream Pallets/Dream Snares a case of only one and the other can be obtained via addon I wouldn't be surprised to see more Dream Power addons.
100% They'll have to have ways to reduce Dream Transition, 60 seconds is far too long to be of any use.
I imagine he'll have an addon to remove some of the new desks. Hopefully they'll also reduce
I have little doubt that he'll have some addons to reduce the cooldown on his Generator TP.
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This kinda looks like a nerf, but I don't think they mentioned the Aura Reading. If he keeps that, then with the passive sleep mechanic he might have the best information gain in the game which could be insane when paired with the Generator teleport.
The other stuff looks gimmicky and time-inefficient though, not a fan of trading stall for those.
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I'm well aware that I'm about to get Downvoted to oblivion here, but I unironically think that FNAF's Springtrap would be a suitable killer. The source material's simplicity offers a lot of creativity for the power, he would fit perfectly into DBD's lore, having been a monster in life (and unlife, in regards to his time actually being Springtrap), and he could have easily been nabbed from the FNAF6 Inferno. It doesn't hurt that his FNAF3 design was pretty much the only thing to come out of FNAF that was spooky even after the first time you saw him.
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Frankly the fact that Freddy's getting a power bare is pretty much just confirmation that he's not going to be the same at all, which is a shame considering he's my favorite killer to play as.
As long as he's not a soulless chase killer like Clown I might be able to pull through though.
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@vampire_toothy We pretty much have the same top 7. I'd probably change a few things on the bottom half of the list, but honestly once you get past the top 5 or so things start to get a bit blurry anyways until you hit the bottom 3 which we both agree on.
For the sake of the thread though I'll post my tier list anyway.
1. Nurse: For obvious reasons
2. Hillbilly: Immense pressure and mobility along with a strong punishing tool.
3. Hag: Absolute control over a portion of the map, can easily become the deadliest killer with a good web, but requires setup.
4. Spirit: Incredibly strong mindgames with decent pressure to boot.
5. Huntress: Deadly on certain loops and lethal in open areas, but not as good as she used to be.
6. Michael: Michael still has insane stealth and can turn games around very quickly.
7. Freddy: Hands down the best stall in the game with insane tracking and even what feels like a prototype Spirit mindgame. I sincerely dread his coming rework.
8. Pig: Solid stall with the Traps and a tool to either get hits or force Survivors to leave loops early paired with some stealth.
9. Legion: Absurd tracking and easy first hits with a side helping of stall. Nothing terrible about this killer tbh, they are just outclassed by others.
10. Wraith: Another decent killer, Wraith's stealth is nice for sneaking up but really without either the stealth combo of one of the Clappers + Ghost or the Map Control Windstorm combo it's rough to get anything going with Wraith.
11. Plague: Plague is hands down the hardest killer to tier. If Survivors cleanse she's above Legion and potentially Pig, but if they don't cleanse she's below Doctor due to her height making loops absurdly difficult to mindgame.
12. Doctor: Ah, the Doctor, the DC King. Now-a-days he's not really that threatening between the fact that he needs addons to make Madness 2 worthwhile outside of gimmicky Skillcheck builds, and his terribly short zapping range makes one of those addon slots mandatory for using his power as a chasing tool. Even then it's pretty inconsistent, I can't count the number of times I've zapped Survivors only to have them vault anyways.
13. Clown: Let's ignore his horrendous bugs that make his power a gamble to start with and look at the rest of his kit: He has no map pressure, stealth, stall, or tracking because he's supposed to have a strong chase, so what's his chase power? He slows himself to slow Survivors, and honestly unless you have extreme precision with the bottles they don't do anything without addons. Then there's the fact that you'll lose any time you gained in the chase, reloading your bottles.
14. Trapper: Trapper's pretty simple: Inconsistent Hitboxes, tons of counterplay relative to his strength, and the fact that he has to go on an easter egg hunt to have a power.
15. Leatherface: If you're not camping the basement you'd be better playing other killers.
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Freddy is easily the most underrated killer IMO. He's a walking Hex: Ruin with extra tracking and even some built-in Mindgames. Frankly, with the tech that's come out over the past year or so, I actually don't think Freddy needs a rework.
In regards to killers that are severely overrated? Clown. He slows himself by the same amount his gas slows Survivor and he loses any of the minimal amount of time he might save with it because he has to reload. He is the epitome of everything wrong with the "Chase Power = Strong" mentality, and that's not even touching how bugged his bottle collision is.
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Honestly keeping Remember Me and deactivating it once Collapse has started was what they should have done in the first place. It would have made a lot more sense than nuking a mid-tier perk from orbit.
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@Shad03 I mean, when it's just one Survivor that has it it's not a huge issue. They may be a pain in the neck, but it can still be handled. The thing is that this perk, while not as awful as Old!DS, has a very similar issue: Multiple people can run the perk with very little to no downside. The difference here is that while Mettle of Man doesn't rob you of early momentum, it also has no downside for *not* being the Obsession.
It just feels bad for both sides IMO. As a Green Rank Survivor I'm getting nearly Red Rank level Killer variety, and I've already covered my issues with it as a killer.
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My issue with Mettle of Man is the fact that if you play an M1 killer you're punished for it unless you get really lucky with RNG Insta-Down perks, or rely on NOED. As somebody that doesn't really like using those perks, but still plays an M1 killer, Mettle of Man punishes me for that. Killer diversity was already not that great, but after Mettle of Man came out it feels like a legitimate rarity to not have one of the chainsaw bros as the killer.
Unless they intend to give every killer a way to damage via their M2, there's no adapting for a lot of them, especially when it gets stacked with Adrenaline, Dead Hard, and either DS or BT.
At this point, until they rework Mettle of Man any killer games I play will be strictly memes or farm games, I love this game to pieces but it's not worth the headache I get from the mental gymnastics of adapting to a perk that punishes you for playing the game.
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@not_Queen said:
I am still finishing up the dev update and it needs to be validated before we publish it.
Send halp.
I would if I could, doubly so since I've got a feeling that it's the update with the Freddy info and as a Freddy main this has my attention.
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I'd be more in favor of making the ability to kick gens worthwhile, perhaps addind a 10% Regression per kick before it begins regression? Obviously that would nerf PGTW to 15% at tier 3, because the other 10% would be there by default.
Alternatively you could have the regression speed double or even triple what it is now. Right now kicking gens is pointless without PGTW or Unnerving/Overcharge combo, so something *baseline* to help make kicking gens a worthwhile use of your time would probably be a good start.
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That was a beautiful pun, I appreciate that!
Wonderful puns aside, Neon Legion looks nice but... I'm probs not going to get it unless they bring back Legion's ability to vault without giving Clown a piggyback ride every time <_<
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Honestly I wouldn't mind getting something for being a Freddy main, especially since I'm going to have to completely re-learn him, so getting a little something for learning pre-rework Freddy would be wonderful, especially for the dozen or so of us that are dreading the rework.
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I have my doubts. I have a feeling it'll be the Mid-Chapter afterwards tbh.
At this point though I wouldn't get my hopes up. Between Legion, Plague, and the fact that MoM exists I'm 99.9% sure that the "rework" will just end up being another nerf, especially for the people that actually play Freddy. This time, though, it'll be one that he won't be able to come back from.
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Please make Mending take priority over actions like Generators or totems, right now as a Doctor player the recent changes to Deep Wounds make Borrowed Time feel rather absurd, considering that rather than being a way to counter camping, it can effectively serve as another full health state.
I also wouldn't be adverse to Deep Wounds acting like Plague's disease by making it tick down if the Survivors work on gens/totems or vault/use pallets while in Deep Wounds, thus rewarding Survivors for breaking the chase rather than just looping forever while giving Legion a way to close out chases, which would be nice since nearly every other killer has some gimmick that they can attempt to close the chase with. It'd run the risk of making Plague obsolete, but she could use some work anyway IMO.
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Honestly I think the easiest way to push Mettle of Man in the right direction is to make it only gain tokens if you take hits while the Killer has someone on their shoulder. It would promote a more Altruistic playstyle, and could result in more synergy with his perks since the only way to not give stacks would be to drop the Survivor. Enter Buckle Up so that you can tell how much they've recovered during your chase if you lose the killer. If the killer downs you, assuming the first person hasn't been picked up they might go for them, allowing you to recover for Flip Flop.
I'd also be in favor of giving Non-Obsessions a weaker version as well, perhaps increasing the number of tokens or not getting a free sprint burst?
Either way, with the perk the way it is now it's pointless to play anyone that doesn't have a dedicated M2 attack.
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Call me crazy, but i'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Pinhead by the end of the year. From there I have no clue where else they could go, but I just have a gut feeling that he'll be the Killer Paragraph to balance out Ash the way Bubba balanced out with Bill. I'm pretty sure that Ghostface is a full chapter too.
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Honestly I just feel like they should have reverted the speed nerfs to Feral Frenzy. If you can't down with it, there's no reason you should feel slow as molasses, everything else is OK and has room for buffs.
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Honestly if being fully infected actually meant something she'd be fine, the idea of having Survivors be hindered while they vomit and leave an AOE infection would actually be a super nice change. As it stands though, her height makes looping painful because you have less opportunities to mindgame, and since her sickness has 0 impact on looping...
I know Corrupt Purge is the big selling point, but that's in the hands of Survivors. I'd like to see Vile Purge be made a bit better on it's own, and feel more like a spreading disease.
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I have 0 clue about a lot of your suggestions. I get that a good SWF is less fun than a Leatherfacecamper, and I'd unironically rather face a Moonwalking Legion than a toxic SWF squad, but I see no reason to punish potatoes like myself who just want to play with friends.
Honestly, just allow SWF groups to stay together, give Solos some buffs to bring them closer to SWF, and rebalance killers. If SWF is still such an overwhelming power, then give Killers bonus BP for putting up with their shenanigans, none of this perk-slot-alteration nonsense. I do like the idea of the DC's BP getting split up among the rest of the players, but that may end up with more toxicity and trying to force people to quit.
In regards to 4-stacks running the Tank build, well Mettle of Man was a mistake in the first place, and is a Mettle of Man issue, NOT an SWF issue. Bodyblocking is annoying, but if you really get that angry about it run Mad Grit or Agitation. I will agree that keys need to be much more visible though.
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So, I'm going to ignore the entire Hag conversation here and touch on the Clown:
Let's say they fixed his bugs and talk about his power: It's not good. The fact that he slows himself down for a chance to give a similar slow to Survivors is not good enough all things considered, especially when you consider his other downsides, including the fact that he basically negates the time saved in the chase with the time spent to reload. Clown's goal is to be the best in a basic chase, and use that to apply pressure, so let's expand on that:
Flask of Bleach getting built in and having his self-slow halved would be a fine start to the idea of being the strongest non-teleport chaser. Alternatively, give Clown some form of built-in Ether, since the slow seems to stop very quickly after leaving the gas cloud, though I'd still say to reduce the self-slow. For the reloading, you could either have it include a passive effect as Madjura suggested earlier in the thread, increase the reloading speed by like, 25%, or increase the number of base bottles. Of course, any combination of the above would also be fine to test, I'd even be down for a PTB in which all of this is included.
Clown as a concept is fine, but his chasing power is far too inefficient to not have any form of Mobility or Stall, + he's by far the single buggiest killer in the game. I'm not surprised he's non-lethal, his power is more of a detriment until you either get *really* good with him, or you run good addons.
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Although I'd drop Deerstalker, you've got the right idea! If you decide to commit to learning pre-rework Freddy I'd recommend checking out Pyrus' guide to the Transition Mindgame for Freddy. He's certainly not top-tier, but he's a decent mid-tier.
Honestly though, I have no confidence in the devs for the rework between the Plague nerfs nobody asked for and the fact that Legion is going from unique but busted to generic mcgee. My heart is not ready for Freddy to become a super-generic killer who still has more drawbacks than strengths.
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I still feel like Remember Me should be reverted and just deactivate during Endgame Collapse, since you have to close the hatch to start it without a Gate being open.
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I have 3 words for you: Three. Generator. Strategy.
Killers like Doctor would become top-tier because they can slow the game down tremendously, without even striking a single Survivor, and that powerful gameslow becomes even more apparent if they can set up a 3-gen strategy early on which this change would encourage. Pig's traps also take valuable time away from the Survivors in this scenario, and could prove to be a bit much.
On top of those difficulties there's the fact that sometimes you have matches where the Survivors aren't super gen-efficient, and those matches can be quite fun because they give you time to play with your food. With these changes you're just encouraging/forcing the absurd speed that game go.
tl;dr: No, it'd be too easy to abuse and encourages the current meta of doing Gens at lightning speeds.
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Not only is Endgame Pig dead for 0 reason (seriously Devs, just make RBT'd Survivors count as Dying/Hooked for the EGC Timer), the fact that RBTs stop ticking down in Terror Radius is an even bigger issue IMO. Not only does that hurt her Early/Mid-game Pressure, it deletes another fun, gimmicky playstyle in the form of Box Master Pig.
Do the devs just want us to play Hard-Meta build Billy or Nurse?
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NO, I understand Pig potentially needing tweaks for EGC, but making her traps work like Deep Wounds and removing the Endgame playstyle is not the way to do that.
EDIT: Also sadboi hours if this goes through, 'cause it'll massacre the Box Master playstyle and the Endgame playstyle.
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Honestly, with how Endgame Collapse works they could have easily kept the current 20 second doors and wouldn't have needed to change Remember Me. I understand that they want people to still get out after the hatch is closed, but they couldn't just add a caveat to Remember Me saying that it deactivates if you close the hatch?
I really don't understand why instead of making a logical change to Remember Me they decided to destroy Freddy's best teachable.
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Honestly if they just revert Remember Me nerfs, Door changes, and Pig nerfs I'd be fine with this PTB. I love the new Coldwind, and I do like the fact that different killers have different music in the lobby now.
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@fluffybunny That's what I said, they're lower-mid tier, they just feel clunky which isn't the most fun feeling. IMO if they revert the speed changes (slowing down the Frenzy movespeed and Frenzy vaults), and remove losing your power to a stun or M1 while your power's not even active, and they'd be a firm mid-tier.
I wouldn't mind if they tweaked the stun a bit as well, if I want to be blind for half the match I can always just go play Nurse instead.
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Honestly I'd say that if they can fix the speed of Feral Frenzy (both movement and vaults), they'll be both a mid-tier killer and a fun one.
In their current state they're lower-mid and feel super clunky IMO, not what I'm looking for when I'm playing a killer who's whole gimmick is Fast-paced High-octane gameplay...
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Coldwind changes are nice, I can actually play games there now and have fun, so I'm happy about that.
I dig the fact that Killer remixes now play when you select them. I'm hoping that the Devs eventually go and give every killer their own remix.
I actually like that Endgame Collapse ends Hatch Standoffs and Survivors that will waste an eternity teabagging at the gates.
Sure those things are overshadowed by a lot of the downsides on the PTB, but those 3 things are nice.
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Infinitely less fun to play. Trying them on the PTB is just ugh. Even if the numbers are technically better, you feel faster just normal vaulting windows rather than using your power, and you cross pallets so slowly you might as well just break them with Brutal Strength.
Oh, and their movement speed in Frenzy feels way too slow. They went from being a high-speed high-intensity killer to feeling absurdly slow when using their power.
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Since so many people are asking the questions about Pig, mine will be about the other hyper-controversial change:
So why, exactly, is the Exit Gate phase getting so horrifically gutted for Killers between the 5 second faster gate opening and heavy-handed Remember Me nerfs?
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Yeah, after this PTB I am 100% convinced that the Freddy Rework is going to just be another massive nerf. I have 0 faith in the Devs to make Killers decent after this fiasco.
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I'm still waiting for Plague Doc lol. I know someone who's also waiting desperately for the new Trapper cosmetics.
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Not going to lie, I actually liked the surprise. I'm a huge fan of cosmetics, especially when there's any sort of mix and match. I mean, what's the point in murdering everyone/getting out alive if you can't look stylish while doing it? It's also nice to get an official look at the skins with super nice renders rather than digging through for tiny thumbnails.
Honestly I just hope that some of the new cosmetics have Shard variants. I'd love to be able to grind out a Red version of the new Legion attire, or just flat out grind the Clown's new outfit.
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Honestly I wish that Blood Widow was a bit more interesting in regards to power potential, 'cause her design is amazing.
I also wouldn't mind Pinhead or Ghostface. Springtrap would be an amazing way to enter the realm of VG guest characters as well.
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Honestly if any perk was going to make me say "F it" and play Hillbilly, my most hated killer in the game, and the one killer I hate more than current Legion, it'd be MoM. Since Billy can prevent it from activating, there's no reason *not* to play him now.
It's a shame really, I really prefer other killers that are typically the M1 variety, but with MoM existing, well there's no real point to them until they change it.
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Freddy's actually a solid upper-mid tier, it's simply that his power is less intuitive than others, and comes with unexplained mechanics. Combine that with the fact that he has an overly steep learning curve for the payoff and you have the consensus that Freddy is bad.
Clown is also super overrated. His power is nowhere near strong enough in the chase to warrant not having some sort of stall or mobility.
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So here's a killer who has so much good stuff in his base kit, but at a very low standard. Let me explain what I mean.
I would love to see almost all of the changes here. Fake Pallets Baseline would be a fantastic boost to his chasing power, while also de-incentivizing tunneling so that you can keep people in confusion about Pallets. Honestly, there are only 2 things I partially disagree on:
- 26 seconds might be a bit overboard. I'd say try 15 first, since right now IIRC it's like 10 seconds. If that's not enough, we can try higher numbers, but start slow.
- The problem with Zap Denial isn't how long it lasts, it's with the pitiful range of his shock. If his base range were closer to Moldy Electrode he'd be in a much better place IMO.
Honestly though, as much as I love playing Doctor regardless of his downsides, I'd rather see buffs to several other killers like Bubba, Clown, and Nu-Legion first.
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Honestly I feel like the biggest reason that Clown struggles is the fact that his chase is only slightly above average, yet that's his entire kit. If his kit's going to be dedicated entirely to the chase at the cost of any truly decent form of Tracking, Stall, or Map Pressure, it needs to be exceedingly good at it's job, which right now it really isn't.
Honestly the idea of cutting his self-slow to 7% rather than 15% and increasing the tonic to a 20% slow would actually make him feel like he has a proper power even without addons, and could easily push him up to mid-tier in my book.
Though, he also needs a lot of bug-fixes as well <_<
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Adrenaline's probably the most bizarre perk in the game for me to look at.
On the one hand, it does a very good job of rewarding Survivors for surviving long enough for the Gens to be completed, and honestly is quite nice.
On the other hand, it effectively deletes any pressure the Killer had on the game. Speaking from experience as a Survivor, I've been known to simply ignore healing for the last Gen or 2 if I have Adrenaline equipped, which is really unhealthy with how reliant the Killer side is on anti-heal to stall the game tbh.
Honestly if Generator Speeds weren't so ludicrous, I'd say remove the wakeup effect vs. Freddy and remove the healing off of the hook, and see how that plays out. With current Generator Speeds though, I'd say that it's extremely strong, and I've felt despair more than once when I see 2 or 3 Survivors go from Injured to Healthy instantaneously.
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@TreemanXD True, but honestly at this point it's more likely that Balanced Landing will get tweaked than every map being fixed. I'm *still* waiting for fixes to Haddonfield, Coldwind, and Wretched Shop.
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IMO Balanced Landing is the only Exhaustion perk that desperately needs looked at, since the rest of the Exhaustion perks range from weak (Head On) to balanced (most of the others tbh.)
As much as I may hate Sprint Burst for preventing me from being rewarded for catching a Survivor out, Balanced Landing's ability to expand loops is disgusting, and in my honest opinion the Falling Stun reduction should only apply to the initial Speed Boost drop, rather than continuing to proc even if you're exhausted.
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To make my opinion blunt: I truthfully don't think any killer should be as completely useless as Legion's about to be. I understand they needed changes, desperately, but this is not the right way to go. This isn't Freddy Nerf 2.0, since at least Freddy's power is still a fun and unique ability that requires a different playstyle, this is the deletion of Legion with no respect for the people that got them. To be completely honest, the Legion changes have completely shaken any tiny amount of faith I had in the Freddy Rework to begin with.
I can respect the people that will continue to play Legion if the changes go through as-written, but playing Legion at this point is pretty much just going to be "person with knife." They could have taken some inspiration from the exploit, and made it to where stabbing a Deep Wounded Survivor with Feral frenzy multiple times makes it take longer to mend (up to a cap, of course,) giving them some proper Stall potential and fulfilling a vision of somebody stalking wounded prey as they desperately heal up. They could have made it to where you lose a chunk of your meter for vaults and whiffs, and I would have been OK with that as it offered potential for counterplay via 360s and Vault Jukes without sacrificing the live-fast die-fast style that Legion used to have. Instead we got le ebic M1 killer with free hit, totally a worthwhile killer, right guys?
But hey, instead of tweaking the killer to keep them fun and unique while removing the BS associated with them, let's just make them a worse Wraith and wonder why people continue to complain that they only ever see Billys and Nurses. That sounds like a plan, right?
As a side note... you're usually much more chill from the posts I've seen from you Detective. This post is pretty OoC for you, have a rough match vs. a Legion?
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@Th3Nightmare You are right about 0 skill and 0 counterplay, but new Legion is just a worse Wraith, unless you mean to tell me that Deep Wounds still have any meaning?
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Legion's a 115% movement speed killer who can score an easy first hit. Who else fits in this category?
Wraith, Freddy, and Pig, all of which are widely regarded as being low to lower-mid tier killers. The difference between them and Legion? Those 3 can disengage and try to get their second hit in a similar way to the first hit while if Legion tries the same thing they get punished for it.
They also lack a way to slow the game down because Deep Wounds went from being a laughable excuse for a time sink to being a shallow paper cut that Survivors can outright ignore while within 32 meters of Legion. They have literally become a straight downgrade to the Pig.
I'll try it in the PTB, but honestly they're looking like another dead killer slot.
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I'm OK with keeping Legion since I got them with Shards, but I wouldn't say no to getting a compensation of Cells from when I got Susie tbh.