Mrpugalug916
Mrpugalug916
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083320#Comment_4083320
If you can read your own point you used MMR as your arguement, what is your MMR, do you know?
High mmr my friend. I win a lot so naturally im ranked with better players
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@TheGoon224 said:
I am mainly talking about killers with powers that don’t reflect what their film or game adaptations actually are. For me I personally think that Xenomorph is genuinely the most disappointing killer in the game for me because this is like the prime candidate for a stealth killer, especially for it being an adaptation of alien, which clearly they were advertising it as because they had Ellen Ripley in her outfit from the first film, had the Nostromo wreckage as the main centerpiece for the map, and even specifically used the Xenomorph from the first film just for him to be a mid-range zoner.
Alien 100%. They should've implemented the facehugger to its kit to where if youre hooked a face hugger comes off of the hook and infects the survivor. To where they would have to deal with it at a medical station or else it would burst out of their chest if they dont do it in time
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Billy sacrificed himself ######### do you mean?
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@TicTac said:
Nurse is, atleast with the last Blight nerf, clearly the strongest killer in the game.
Some other killer have different mechanics to keep their power in check, which of those would be in your opinion work for Nurse without making her awful to play?
- Infect first/triple hit (for example Nemesis, Unknown)
- Limited Power (for example Oni, Myers)
- Items to reduce the power (for example Singularity, Xeno)
I swear this game is the only game where its balanced around the weakest, whiniest group of players and the devs listen to them. Is her fatigue and 2 blink limit not enough with her cooldowns? Was her lunge after blink counting as an m2 attack not enough? Stop nerfing killers just because you suck at going against them. My hardest killer to go against is lich but you dont hear me moaning to get him nerfed.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082823#Comment_4082823
That's not really an arguement when you have no idea of knowing you're at it lol
Not sure what youre on about and dont really care. Hes trash in chase. I dont care what tier your favorite streamer tells you hes in to be honest. He is leagues worse now with his cooldowns. Hes in trash b tier with clown and deathslinger
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
I cant believe the level of incompetence in most of this games survivor community
It really is dire. DbD is the only game I play where the playerbase has somehow degraded in skill over time instead of improved. The quality of the average Survivor match is bad these days, and it's almost always due to poor teammates.
Its because they've been coddled by handholding mechanics and balance the game around the worst players. If they would just listen to their vet players, and balance the game around high mmr like every other game out there, the bad players would be forced to get better
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082716#Comment_4082716
So far from the truth with Dissolution + Blood Favor, and his Bamboozle add on, people keep forgetting glaring problematic options the killer has.
He does need changed, the community pretty much agrees on it, there is no one i know who doesn't hate ghoul.The survivor community that has never played as him at high mmr lol. Thats who bhvr always listens to so it would be on brand if he gets another nerf. They dont listen to the actual veterans in this game. Play against any decent survivors at high mmr and youll get it dude otherwise you have no clue what youre talking about
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@Mistfit said:
just dc or force them out if you're having that much of a problem
Bro theres a DC penalty. Do you not play killer? Lol why would I want to wait an exponential amount of time when I should be able to just open the exit gates and then abandon. Survivors have zero problem running to me asking me to down them when theyre having a bad game but BHVR doesnt Play testtheir own game because if they did they'd see how many of their changes dont help out one side. Only survivors get an out if they're not having fun with zero consideration for the killer.
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Yes blindness is bad dude. Survivors are just mad because it shuts down windows of opportunity. Their major crutch of this game
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@Carth said:
Yes let's make blindness even worse. If a survivor has bond actually that's super unfair third seal blocks the aura. I agree, let's make blindness block 1 aura at most and for 2 seconds tops.
A SWF being able to say "Hey dude I'm by shack" or "hey im hooked near basement entrance by main" surely should be given to everyone.
Of course this gets down voted but youre right dude. Blindness needs a huge buff. Like you shouldnt even be able to see the hook bubble in my opinion. Make the killer actually a threat when he gives you a debuff
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The statistics dont tell you anything when bad survivors give up. Almost all the stats in this game are flawed because of survivors quitting early, artificially inflating kill rates. Most killers in this game arent even at 50%
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@HommeBizarre said:
I want to hear what people think of Kaneki
What they like, and what they don't like.
I'll begin, his leap cooldown when not attacking is awfully low. Why on earth does he has the right to come super fast to you, get a 0.5sec cooldown and hit you for free.
Tbh, it's the only thing bugging me about him
Post nerfs hes literal B tier. He was A tier pre cooldown after pallet break but he gets looped by decent survivors and struggles on indoor maps. If youre getting body blocked then that means youre just trying to hold W which you cant do against him. Bad survivors got him nerfed to begin with and he didnt need one. His power was already lackluster to begin with lol
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Youll never get better at the game by using windows though. Its like if im playing nurse and constantly use the add on where it shows me where I blink. Literal training wheels on survivor.
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@Venusa said:
Warning: if a video game opinion genuinely triggers you, don’t read this thread.😂
I think Nowhere to Hide is one of the cheapest and most braindead perks in the game and makes a bunch of other killer aura perks obsolete.
Why run niche tracking perks when you can just kick a gen and instantly reveal everyone around you for that long? And if you pair it with Lethal Pursuer, it gets even dumber.
People love calling Windows of Opportunity “handholding” for survivors, but what exactly is this then?
The perk takes so much tracking work away from the killer. You just kick a gen with no cooldown and get value. And since you can kick the same gen like 8 times anyway, the limit doesn't matter. It's just “kick gen, spin camera, walk at highlighted survivor.”
- someone’s nearby = free info
- nobody’s nearby = also free info because now you know where not to waste time searching, time to kick the next gen LOL
I don’t even think it’s overpowered necessarily. I just think it’s an insanely low-IQ perk for how much value it gives you.
What’s your unpopular Dead by Daylight opinions?
Nowhere to hide brain dead? Lol its aura. You can still only chase one survivor and you can only regress a gen 8 times. Literally every killer opinion gets more down votes on this forum than likes.
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Healthy change in my opinion
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@Jay_Whyask said:
Indirect Nurse buff 🤢
In all seriousness, is it actually 3 seconds, because I fast vaulted into & out of a locker earlier today & it definitely didn't take 3 seconds to do it.
Good because I just picked her up. You shouldnt be able to dodge a power by just hopping into a locker. If you go in a locker you should be forced to commit
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082522#Comment_4082522
Okay, which one of us do you think is more likely to be at high MMR? The person with every achievement in the game, three p100 killers, who showed you they have more hours on killer than survivor… or the person angry because they can't ragequit faster?
But secondly, I can 100% imagine a scenario where the survivors are mean enough to hang around the exit gate not opening it to make you watch them t-bag. I have been told to self-harm by survivors who beat me before.
However, unless you are actively seeing them all gathered up at the same gate, what I think is most likely happening in the majority of cases is that they're split at opposite gates unsure of where their allies are and waiting for a terror radius to finish opening the gate and start the EGC, and you are assigning malice to what is likely concern for their allies and not wanting to leave before they know people are safe unless they get pushed out.
Instead of me needing to play more killer, I think you need to play more survivor so you can understand reasons why survivors might not want to open the gate beyond wanting to make you upset.
Is it ragequitting or conceding? If I know i have no chance id rather queue up and go next instead of wasting my time. Survivors are allowed to do that. All I want is for killer to get the same opportunity. But go ahead keep huffing your own farts. Your p100s literally mean nothing but bloodpoints youve dumped lol. Even more useless if they're survivor p100s. Also your argument is a fallacy and holds zero weight. Youre trying to argue from authority. I probably have more hours than you but id never try to win an argument with that fact.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082507#Comment_4082507
Things I have never once seen happen.
Its almost every game that they get to endgame lol. Especially if there are 3-4 still alive. But once again just because one player never sees it because they dont play killer at high mmr, it doesnt happen. Survivors are just wholesome goofballs right? They cant do anything wrong and it's the big meanie killers fault for playing killer
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Yeah okay I can open the exit gate true but that still wont let me abandon and keep my bloodloints. I wamt out of the match and be able to queue up for the next one ASAP. Not wait out the entire EGC lol. Play killer more bud
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@Zakon05 said:
You can open the gate yourself once the 5th gen is done.
Yeah and wait out the end game collapse? Lol do you even play killer bro? Or are you just yapping because you hear a killer main opinion on your survivor main forum?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082291#Comment_4082291
I said slugging for the 4k, which happens when two people are left, not four. There's no counter to it, and no abandon option if the other person is standing.
The abandon option isn't a solution anyway, it's the lack of a solution.
Slugging for the 4k is valid. If 1 survivor is alive they can get hatch. And if the killer gets hatch the survivor can still find a key, or open the exit gates. Everything is in survivors favor. Killer gets 1 option to reliably kill all 4 and thats slugging for the 4k
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@BlackJimmy88 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081886#Comment_4081886
Yeah, weaker Kindred would be my choice too. I don't really trust people enough to give them free Bond. I've been sold out to the Killer by bad team mates to many times.
Bro you can give survivors basekit kindred and bond and they still wont use it properly. We're talking about people who dont even look at the HUD right now lol. This will only buff swf. Survivors don't need more handholding in this game
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@BlackJimmy88 said:
Because BHVR decided to stack this, anti-tunnelling and a Chapter release into one PTB when all of these should have been their own PTBs. And instead of tackling the situation is calm, efficient manner, they paniced and overcorrected by dropping everything, then making the anniversary patch barebones.
As much as I'd like to sling a few words towards the people abuse slugging, it's all on BHVR and their inability see the obvious problems and the obvious solutions.
Theres nothing wrong with slugging though. It counters at least 10 survivor meta perks. Maybe they need to look at the perks instead of a platstyle that generates pressure for the side thats supposed to be the power role. In better asyms, the one was the power role. Evolve is a perfect example. You start off weak but as the match goes on the 4 slowly have to respect you more and more. Unlike dbd when I literally have people unhooking in my face as a killer and being able to get away with it lol
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@MoZo said:
if you click on the arrow on the far right, it will close the play while you wait tab
I know but I want to be able to move it or disable it. I never use the feature and I know a lot of killer mains dont as well
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@CookieMaster said:
Pretty much 80% of the killer mains are tunneling right at the start of the match, do not say that you see much pallets 😂
Killer players should start to play fair, tank down the kill rate to 15/20% at high MMR and maybe BHVR will aknowledge that there is a balance problem.
For now on you all camp and tunnel as if 1 millions $ was involved in the trials you play, artificially inflating your MMR (yes) and the kill rate inducing more buff for survivors.Okay and? Comp players all do it in comp games why should we care about pub matches when all perks and addons are available? Baby survivors only complain about camping and tunneling. I remember when BHVR said this game has no rules. Then they bent the knee to the 500 page survivor rulebook on camping and tunneling hahaha
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@cogsturning said:
This is the biggest thing I want addressed, especially slugging for the 4k.
You already get that. You can abandon after being plugged twice and you get multiple perks to pick yourself up. Just get better. If 4 people are being plugged, its your teams fault
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Okay killers should get deadlock basekit then. Im sick and tired of survivors getting powerful effects basekit. You don't need them. You already get borrowed time basekit which works at egc and anticamp. I remember when this game took skill and coordination to escape, now the game just plays itself for survivor
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Thats why I picked up nurse. Even tho im on console she's the only killer who doesnt have to play by the 500 page survivor rulebook. If im wraith, a 7 foot tall death incarnate, im supposed to be nice to survivors because going after someone off hook is mean. Lol in any other multi-player game they'd get laughed at for trying to cry like they do in this game, but in dbd youre supposed to hold your opponents hand and walk them out the exit gates
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@TropesDaMan said:
what is the people of the forums least fav perk to play against on both killer and survivor?
i personally hate Blood Favor and DS
I dont mind ds anymore because I picked up nurse. Definitely dead hard or any endurance perk. Basically fixes their mis play or outpositioning
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@MechWarrior3 said:
So I got a response from support today about a report I sent in, and honestly it just feels really discouraging as a survivor player.
I had a match where two teammates (an Ace and a Cheryl) basically refused to participate. They threw themselves at the killer, didn’t do gens, didn’t go for saves, and were clearly just wasting time while the rest of us actually tried to play.
I submitted video proof, explained what happened… and the official response was basically: “We’re not taking action because this behavior is not against the rules.”
I get that not everything can be bannable, but when players can openly refuse to participate and drag down an entire match with zero consequences, it makes solo queue feel miserable. It’s not “just one bad game” when this keeps happening and the message from support is that “it’s fine.”
If AFKing, griefing, or refusing to participate is considered acceptable behavior, what are we supposed to do as survivors besides eat the loss and move on? At some point it stops feeling like “just RNG” and more like…well that’s just how the cookie crumbles.I’d really like BHVR to reconsider where they draw the line on this stuff, because right now it feels like survivors are completely unprotected from teammates who want to throw.
This is the reply I got from support..I just wanted to rant, show my thoughts, express my feelings. Thanks for listening 👂 everyone.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YCEV4QXPQ9A4/img-1635.png
Technically tunneling and camping arent against the rules either, but just like on this forum and on reddit, if you do it, you'll be punished lol. They made their stance when they bent the knee to the survivor rulebook. I dont feel sorry for players when they get bad teammates anymore. Killers need to have fun too
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@100PercentBPMain said:
I swear I have better luck trolling with matchbox than I do playing Nurse seriously
Are you on console?
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@Icaurs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077814#Comment_4077814
No, read my post, it is a killer specific issue.
I do not hold an opinion that survivor's a good and killer is bad. BUT
The problem is there so may ways that killers are actively sucking ruining the game, and nothing can be done about because they are all victims.
This match was not a one off match. It constant stream of everything in all the time. Anytime any of this needs to be addressed it's oh but think of the poor killers. Can't do anything by tunneling, that would ruin it for killers. The entire mechanic of sabo is a dead mechanic. Survivors have given up on entirely because the killers whined and whined until it got nerfed the point that is is just dead.
Killer's 100% take the power role and use to just make the match miserable for 1 player, and it's not me every match. It happens to my teammates all the time, 1 player gets screwed and the the other 3 can't really do anything, this happens all the time. I know that there are toxic survivors. But survivors whining in the end game chat after they played badly is just not comparable to killers actively trying to ruin the game for people and then the devs rewarding this, by refusing to give survivors tools to deal with this.
THE GIVE UP EPIDEMIC.
Of cause survivors are giving up this is miserable. I know there are some survivors who just funnel the cool aid and go well sure the killer actively tried to make a survivor dc because they looped him for too long but sometimes gens go to fast so it's fine.
WHAT is wrong with online games, this never use to be a thing.
Play killer and you'll understand the frustration at high mmr
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@CuzImTim said:
Drop-Leg Knife Sheath + Outdoor Security Camera
&
See How They Run/Play with your Food + Coup de Grace,
You can't realistically loop this unless you are right next to a Strong Pallet. The Counterplay is stealthing and hope you don't get found, because if you do you either go down or, if you are lucky, you only get Injured and they instantly leave you to pick you off later.
It is super unengaging to play against. It's not even super Strong, it's just boring and makes any Wins and genuine Skill from the Killer feel completely undeserved and frustrating.
Yeah because ghoul got nerfed down to B tier thanks to baby survivors not wanting to learn the game. All you want to do is hold w. Ghoul hard counters that. So instead of crying for nerfs what yall should've did was taken the opportunity to learn how to loop. Ghoul is an M1 killer at loops! He gets looped to oblivion and theres nothing he can really do at most loops besides run through the pallet like a trapper
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@DemonicDemons said:
I recently seen a post complaining about nurse and yeah, she needs a cooldown post teleport because she can teleport twice suffers a super small cooldown and I literally can't get away from her even with sprint burst (2v8 and 1v4), at least with blight you can cut a corner and make him miss, with the nurse she rarely ever misses and can catch up faster than any other killer in the game. Nothing drastic needs be done but she does need at least a 1-2 second cooldown more after her second teleport to give survivors the chance to escape. To be clear there is no escaping the nurse unless she leaves you alone, at most you can circle back into her to avoid her attack and that's her only counter play. Make her actually pay for missing attacks rather than granting her game breaking abilities and pressure without legitimate counter play, please.
No dude. There are so many guides on how to juke the nurse. You refusing to put in the work and being bad at the game is nobody else's problem but your own. Stop whining for nerfs
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Honestly some games are just stacked against you. Killers have zero agency in this game to do anything because the tools survivors get impact the game so much that theres really not anything you can do. Especially as a low tier killer. Thats why I switched to nurse recently. Shes the only one left who can consistently deal with high mmr.
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How Much anti tunnel and anti camp do you need? Its already 15 seconds of haste and endurance off hook even before perks that further increase this. Good survivors abuse this and bad survivors still dont use it effectively but they balance the game off of survivors who dont even look at the HUD during a match. Like bro when they buff survivor they nerf killers at the same time. Just stop
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077676#Comment_4077676
A youtuber said something I agree with so it must be true.
Not what im saying at all. Ive noticed it in my own games as well as the OP.
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@Foodnt said:
I found a Youtuber who claims that the movement speed of killers are slower than they supposed to be.
do you feel the same?
i must say sometimes it feels of not catching up without them having ms perks or even missing your lunge when you think you are in range (this part is mostly mostly skill issue i guess)
i have 3 k hours in this game ( - 1k waiting for lobbies) but im still sometimes uncertain if this is subtle cheating or something else.
just wanna hear your opinion on this topic
IIts More likely that they shadowbuffed survivors to 105 without telling anyone. Look up professional outcast on youtube. He constantly shows survivors running either at his speed or faster. I also agree with a lot of his hot takes.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077443#Comment_4077443
I said nothing about survivor buffs. Very good whataboutism though!
Youre crying like killer is fair in 1v4. Killers have had to do nothing but adapt to every version of 2v8. Let us have a strong killer power dang. All you guys do is whine for nerfs. Its irritating because the devs listen to the loud majority of bad survivors. Theres evidence to prove this
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@Valuetown said:
Unfortunately as expected, your post will be downvoted into oblivion despite Nemesis and Oni being one of the most prevalent combos this 2v8.
But yes, Nemesis is not fair. Neither is Oni. Downvotes with no discussion just proves that killers don't want to work for a win.
Bro survivors got nothing but buffs in 2v8 since its inception.
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Not even in the same stratosphere in terms of power lol. Vigil exists as well dude. 66% debuff to every killer deuff
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@Wezqu said:
This guy clearly was not here when it was way more powerful when now its really not the easiest to get value if killer expect you to have it as they can do fake hits like back in the day to get you to use it and then just down you. Dead Hard is not a problem really in its current iteration it was back in the day when it was way more easy to use and had several ways to use it too.
I was here since 2017 dude. Survivors dont need iframes like they currently have for just getting hooked. Its been weaponized at high level play to body block when its supposed to be an anti tunnel perk.
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How much basekit bt do you need bby gurl?
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@Mechanix82 said:
Bro its the same build everygame. Cycle between 3 killers same hard tunnel at 5 gens with 4 slowdowns this game has become unplayable
Yeah killers have to run these builds to combat the 16 second chance perks per game and basekit BT + gen speeds
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076966#Comment_4076966
I'm bored so Ok~
So first that basekit BT. If it wasn't there what stops the killer from immediately downing the unhooked survivor? You probably say the survivors should have saved better, but then if the killer camps the hook…what then? Then theres more "handholding" in the anti-face camp which allows the survivors a chance to get a clean save. These "handholding" things allow the survivor player a chance to, you know, play the game since preeeeeviously the killer could deny someone actually playing the game. Didn't matter if they're good or not. This caused ALL survivors, good or bad, to be loud (with a pretty good reason too) and both benefit in being able to actually play. Unless your new you as a killer should know basekit BT is a thing and can either go for someone else, eat through it, or count to 15 or 30 depending on how sure you want to be. If you hook at a powered/open gate then thats on you.Second, you explicitly admitted to tunneling. DS does exactly 1 thing, which is prevent tunneling before the end game. It has many deactivate conditions and any killer can avoid it by simply not picking them up. Someone brought a perk (aka 1/4th their build) to protect themselves in case tunneling happened to them. Other "second chance" perks (aka parts of build) are also really only useful for specific circumstances (Unbreakable for example only really helps against slugging).
Third, you brought full "meta"…so what? Most the "meta" (unless theres a new "meta" i missed) works only if you actually catch people. Now, we all don't know exactly what happened in your matches, but your saying you got 2 hooks before you decided to try and tunnel and im inferring they got out soon after that decision you made. This tells me personally that you weren't doing well. If the survivors were bad how exactly did they get to that end point? Spoilers, they were good enough against you to reach it wern't they?
Now fourth, between all that, it sounds like you wish to be able to do as you please without consequence. You wanna be able to tunnel when you wan't without the survivors being able to a dang thing. Perks can't save them, base kits neither despite both being able to be worked around. Sounds to me you want your hand held~
Here we go with the gaslighting from the survivor community once again. Nah man thats survivors. The only role who can consistently mess around, not do the objective and still win is the survivor role. Thats why they nerfed mangled into the ground. Why should survivors have to worry about their macro play, goof off and not heal, do a whole gen and then get to heal for free after only 70 seconds? Lol survivors heal meta is insane right now because of resurgence but they nerf sloppy into the ground.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076966#Comment_4076966
So majority are bad, and you want the devs to make it easier for you to compete with the minority that are good? Maybe just get better because you sound entitled as heck
I guess everyone's a survivor main on here lol. Dude what im saying is theyre balancing the game around babies who dont know how to play the game, meanwhile the experienced players who actually know how to play the game abuse every single advantage given to them while no killer can keep up consistently.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076966#Comment_4076966
Please define 'handholding mechanics' and explain how their absence would be fair to the other side. (Bonus points if you can somehow twist the language to somehow exclude the numerous killer benefiting mechanics in the game)
Since I imagine you're referring to things like anti-face camp and unhook haste and endurance then let's pretend they don't exist. Please explain to the class how being able to face plant on a hook and then one shot the person just unhooked (if they ever actually are unhooked) is in anyway healthy for the game. Are you capable of understanding why that's a miserable and unfair experience on the receiving end of that or do you just not care?
Basekit BT that has been weaponized at this point, dead hard, DS, pallet density, nerfing of killers based on low ranks giving up at the slightest inconvenience or perceived "tunnel"/"camp". Anti camp mechanics. I can keep going
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@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076945#Comment_4076945
Holy crap, OP. You made me agree with Cryptic. I never agree with Cryptic. I mean, gold star, I guess? Achievement unlocked.
Look my man, I'm a killer main as well, and I too feel the game is a bit swindling of non S-tier killers right now. That being said, this may not be the best way to present your argument. You posted what is effectively an accusation followed by what is effectively an ultimatum in a dress.
May I suggest that in the future you consider taking some time to formulate your post into a coherent argument that others can engage with? What you've presented is just kind of a baleful tangle of upsetti spaghetti.Prove my argument wrong then. Good survivors benefit because of the loud majority of bad survivors in dead by daylight. They benefit because of handholding mechanics implemented based on a survivor created rule book. Is that clear and coherent enough for you?
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076288#Comment_4076288
Its a casual mode that is really easy to win chase too IF you play with a friend, almost like that's how it was intended.
You obviously only play survivor lol. Every change made to 2v8 is based on how much the survivors whined the last time. The first iteration was honestly the best. They should've never listened to the complaints of babies on twitter
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@CrypticGirl said:
So…you're complaining about the worst Survivors in the game who give up while admitting that you can't handle going against the knowledgeable ones who don't give up. This may not be the game for you in that case…
Yes because the knowledgeable ones are the ones benefitting the most from the majority of this games survivor base being trash. All survivors get the same handholding, knowledgeable or not.