Jason Balance
been playing a lot more survivor recently due to queue times, and going against jason i noticed some things that bothered me, namely DEPUTY BADGE that addon, seems a tad extreme and more on iri power level feel like that should be toned down by a fair amount, or reworked, as almost every jason i've seen runs it, i think my main issue with it is that if shape jumpscares right after triggering the skill check its basically a free pop?
I dont mind the whole, staying in power thing giving that feeling of "could be anywhere" but the speed with teleport, on a thirteen second cooldown, that also gives you 25 seconds of haste, and tons of info that requires coming to a grinding halt to not reveal yourself, maybe like 18 seconds would be more reasonable? like i can easily use it to cut people off in chase as is after having used it to reach them, and that plus spear is extreme
finally, the ease of getting spears, just remove the "get spear on hooking a survivor" and make that an addon, they are already everywhere, you dont need free ones from hooking
Im sure i could argue for things like reducing the haste duration post jump scare etc. but tbh its really mostly the cooldown and deputy badge.
Comments
The spears are interesting because when you're playing vs him, it can sometimes feel like he just has infinite ammo. But then you try playing as him, and suddenly getting a spear mid-chase is really difficult, requiring you to give up distance to take a detour to grab it.
Before I had a chance to play as him a bunch, I thought he was a bit too much. But now that I've played him, I think he's overall fine with a few small issues. It really is important to play as the character yourself to learn what struggles they go through and how others counter him. My performance against him went up dramatically with some experience playing as him under my belt. This is true in the opposite direction, too - you should play against the character to see if your issues playing him are personal issues or not.
Jason just needs two nerfs to basically be in a perfect spot imo. They also happened to both be in Scott Jund's video today, so now people can accuse me of parroting streamers!
Also they should maybe look into nerfing Thrill of the Hunt back down to 50% like it was before the buffs it got in 8.4. Hex builds are really difficult to deal with right now and it's all due to Thrill, where before that buff they weren't that hard to deal with while Thrill was still a pretty good perk.
idk coz the haste for coming out of OE just circumvents the downside of constantly reloading, it's dumb.
Sorry if this is technically “off-topic,” but because you said “in the perfect spot…”
How do you feel about the power creep that is his base kit? I don’t see anyone talking about it, and I find it incredibly concerning.
Jason may not be OP or “too strong,” but his kit eclipses the need for anyone to play Wraith, Spirit, Huntress, Deathslinger, Springtrap, Onryo, Demo, and probably several others I’m forgetting to mention.
It raises serious concerns for future killer design
This is exactly why he needs the haste. I didn't understand why he got it either until I played him. He has to reload after every shot like Deathslinger and Springtrap, except that he doesn't have as much control over reloading as them. He has to walk by a junk pile or a hook. Until you play him yourself you don't realize how inconsistent this is. I know it feels like when he's chasing you that they're everywhere but trust me they're not.
Even when he does have access to both a junk pile and a hook in a tile, they have respawn periods after he grabs ammo from them
I feel like you're thinking about this the wrong way.
First off, as you said yourself, he's not OP or too strong (outside of the hex build). So clearly he's not power creep, then. Except for Spirit, all of the killers you mentioned need buffs. Some of them are really weak right now. Unless you think they're the healthy ones, but then the survivors need nerfs instead.
But also, killer playstyles are important and Jason doesn't have the same playstyle as these killers except for the projectile ones.
but why does he need it for 30s on a 12s CD? 15s would be more than fine.
I mean strictly speaking about the haste effect, what's the difference here between a 12s cooldown and 15s cooldown? They're both shorter than the duration he gets haste for. This nerf would be more to his ability to traverse the map since it would take him longer before he could go back into OE.
But also refreshing it is more inconvenient than it seems. You can only come out of it at a window, pallet, or one of those unique pre-broken pallet spawns. I loaded up a bot game to show the issue.
I chased Tapp to killer shack and then entered OE to refresh haste. I cannot exit OE anywhere on the outside of shack where he is, I have to pick the window or pallet, so he's completely safe until I do.
I also need a new spear. I have two reload points here. Both of them are in inconvenient places. The hook is on the long side of shack, the junk pile is outside of shack. If I miss a shot, I need to go out of my way to get another. If I miss both shots, I simply can't get another until chase leaves shack.
Seriously? A bot game is the best evidence you could come up with, lol.
How does the fact they're bots matter here? I'm showing the environment, not demonstrating my skills as Jason.
I'll do it again:
Here's the "Scooby-Doo" hallway, as Mr. Tatorhead likes to call it. I have 1 hook to reload from here. In fact, in total on this part of the map, I have only 3 reload points.
Here's the other two. Neither of them are in the Scooby-Doo hallway, so if I'm lucky and I already have a spear when chasing someone into that hall, I only have one other shot before I'm down to just being an M1 killer or leaving the chase.
And this isn't a complaint, by the way. I think it's good that the survivor is rewarded for dodging/killer is punished for missing. I'm just pointing out the consistency issue Jason has.
However, it's the exact opposite if I were chasing someone in the tile below. In that case I would have a junk pile and hook both easily available inside of the tile and I don't need to go out of my way for either.
PS: Just to be clear what I mean by Scooby-Doo hall:
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
I’m not convinced the Killers mentioned are different enough (except maybe Onryo) to justify playing them over Jason. Outside of super niche builds like moonshot Huntress, Jason satisfies enough of each major killer archetype (that isnt traps/zoning) to be a one-stop-shop.
Arguing granular details about killer powers is futile when people don’t play killers for granular reasons. If two killers are similar playstyles, people gravitate towards the more powerful.
Jason might not be “OP” but he is objectively more powerful than killers who have 1/3 of his kit. It means future killers need to come equipped with just as much bloat to convince players to buy/play.
This isn’t a problem today, but it is a problem for the future. …not the first live service game to go down this route
Because it does nothing to show how the game actually works. Like even the image you are using shows how powerful Jason is. He blocks the pallet in the statue room and then M1s them and after that pins the person since you can throw over it and if not there's the hook like 0.5 seconds away and the survivor can't get anywhere in that time frame. Same issue with the second image you shown where he can just block the pallet and m1 or throw and then easily reload in chase.
I don't agree with this at all. There are people who have a strong preference between characters in the same playstyle. In fact most people do. I also don't think the differences Jason has with most of the killers you mentioned are granular except for the projectile ones.
Ex: I have historically never liked playing projectile killers, but I do like playing Springtrap, because he doesn't have to reload and he can throw his hatchet away to brute force down 110 abuse tiles, which are the reasons why I didn't like playing projectile killers before him.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Jason has a 1 second animation as he exits power and can't move, and then another 1 second period where he can't attack. He only blocks the pallet for this 2 second duration, it's basically just there to keep the survivor from dropping it and stunning him in the middle of his teleport.
If he's running Bamboozle and teleports to a window, he blocks the window with Bamboozle, otherwise the window gets blocked for this same 2 second duration where Jason can't do anything.
Also I never said Jason wasn't strong. But he's strong in the way Spirit or Dracula is strong. He's not overpowered outside of how good he is at guarding hexes.
No I just know the layout of the map. No matter what happens Jason will win that pallet. Because it's blocked in a short room you either spear them or m1 easily since it's all hallways around you. Using RPD to show how he's weak is a horrible idea since even if they run out to the stair vault then you spear them there as Jason has both haste and a fast as hell windup in a cramp area, it's extremely powerful and has essentially no counterplay besides be psychic.
the killer as a whole is broken and annoying. Everyone is playing him because he’s easy and broken his add ons literally does the work for you.
Don't be disingenuous. You were talking about how he gets a free hit there because he blocks the pallet and M1s. You clearly didn't know he can't attack instantly after teleporting or that the pallet block only lasts for the same length of time he can't attack. Judging by this you may not even know that his speed boost only makes him slightly less fast than a 115% movespeed killer, since you're talking like he gets a burst of speed like Wraith here.
And again, I wasn't trying to show Jason is weak, I was trying to show that his access to ammunition is inconsistent and this is most likely why he was given the move speed boost to bring him up to just shy of normal killer movement speed, instead of being locked to 110% like other projectile killers. In some places he has easy instant access to reloads, in others he doesn't. As a result he has to rely more on M1s than other ranged killers do, as he can't afford to miss shots as much.
… Okay I'll try to explain this easier for you. Since Jason blocks the pallets, someone in that room can't stun him which then lets him either m1 or spear them. Jason is extremely strong and even if he somehow misses the hook is right there and there's essentially no slowdown and since it's all cramp hallways you can't dodge in. The best example you have of his ammo being inconsistent is a location where he wins every throw and can't be mindgamed.
Once again, this has nothing to do with Jason's power level. I took that screenshot to show the inconsistency of his access to ammo to explain why he has a buff that makes him a normal movespeed killer. Jason best not miss there because if he does he only has one more shot, and that's assuming the shot he took wasn't the hook in that room.
But to address this situation specifically: look at the youtube clip I linked. You have two pallets there, not one. If he chases you in there and goes into Omnipresent Evil to refresh his movement speed buff, wait between the two pallets to see which one he teleports to. The pallet block is completely irrelevant because it is not a chase tool, the block only lasts the same amount of time Jason cannot attack.
If he teleports to the one in that room, run to the other one, which also puts walls between you so he can't throw his spear at you.
Unless all you know how to do is run to pallets and camp them, you have answers to Jason teleporting into that room.
You have a point but that would suggest he needs it shorter than his CD then? I don't see how the reload points matter since he can grab it in OE anyways, as a Trickster player I have to stay stationary at a locker and also move around perma at 110, i need more hits than you requiring me to hit 6 times as much with the possibility of decay thrown in.
Why should Jason get to do my job more easily, I'm reworked just earlier this year, yet you can just reload, get haste, even displace them from the loop with barely even a fraction of the effort, not to mention your hitboxes are much larger.
I basically NEED bamboozle to be able to loop shack against a good player as Trickster, Jason gets haste base kit.
It's frustrating to face and it just doesnt make sense even compared to unknown what Jason can do..
He is this way to sell him.
Deputy Badge, Coroners Coffee and the exhaustion stone are outliers in his addons for sure.
Badge with Surveillance is especially nasty.
Badge needs to be reworked imo. Coffee is borderline fine, but needs to be weakened and probably split into two addons. Exhaustion stone just needs to be weakened.
I just went against a Jason who barely used omnipresent and focused purely on spears, it felt like going against a huntress with built in anti heal and a tp in the back pocket, that was miserable. Also why was shack brought up as a balance point? Thats just miserable for almost every killer? and I agree hes this way to sell him, but hopefully he gets reigned in, as it stands with queue times im stuck playing survivor, and half my matches are against Jason
oh also…
Addendum: Nerf him more, 25 second cooldown, I was too kind in my suggestions, i hadn't realized he refreshed scrap piles on using omnipresent i thought they had cooldown like hook, or give them respawn timers instead of refresh on OE
Trickster is one of the worst killers in the game, why do you want Jason brought down to his level instead of Trickster brought up to Jason's? Also I'm not a Jason main, in fact I don't even like playing him very much, I just spent time playing him to try to learn why the devs made some of the decisions they did. I deliberately did not use the hex build.
Jason does not get Bamboozle basekit. Like I said, the window/pallet block lasts only 2 seconds, during which time Jason cannot attack. If he's using Bamboozle and teleports to a window, he applies the Bamboozle block.
People keep picking apart the singular tiles without actually understanding what point I'm trying to convey with them, which is that his access to ammo is inconsistent and that's why he has the movespeed buff he does.
I went to Midwich this time, widely regarded as a killer-favoring map, and screenshotted two tiles to convey the point, and hopefully people will get it this time.
1 reload point in the tile, he has to leave the room to get another spear if he misses, or if he didn't have ammo prior to entering this room. Every room in Midwich was laid out like this.
Literally one single reload point in the entirety of the courtyard and it's shoved in the back of a corner. Now to be fair, I reloaded this map to see if this was a fluke, and the second try there was another hook in the courtyard in a much more convenient spot (slightly to the right of where I took this screenshot) but this is still far from ideal.
Okay, what about Coal Tower? Often regarded as a well-balanced map.
One reload inside the tile AND conveniently located! He has to exit the tile to get another.
This was the best tile I could find in terms of giving him access to ammo. The hook is conveniently located, but the junk pile is not. It's not the worst placement ever, but walking away from that double window setup to grab a new spear is not ideal.
No other ranged killer has to worry about this. Huntress gets multiple shots. Deathslinger can reload any time. Trickster has a ton of knives. Springtrap just needs to wait out a cooldown and he's 115% movespeed while not carrying his axe.
Importantly, bold for emphasis: this does not mean Jason is weak. Jason is a strong killer. Yes, it's good that he's punished for missing.
But he needs that movespeed buff. If they remove it, he would drop down in tiers dramatically as he suddenly becomes incredibly punishing to play. Any missed spear would become an enormous blow to his odds of downing the survivor in a timely manner, as he would be chasing as a 110% movespeed M1 killer, unless he's willing to take a detour to grab a new spear and let the survivor leave the tile.
"One of the worst killers in the game" I do just fine on them far from the worst killer, I appreciate the well thought out post but I'm tired of Jason cope at this point, your kit is overloaded and that can't be argued, Huntress and Trickster do just fine, Jason is literally easy mode ranged killer for people who want to put in no effort..
He is badly designed, end of, it's exhausting dealing with y'all.
You understand when saying this that you literally think he has abilities he doesn't have, right?
He doesn't have basekit bamboozle.
I never said he had basekit bamboozle, I said I need it to loop shack…? I Said you have haste, please don't mixup my words.
Oh boy, you sound like a big brother beeing locked down on his old PS3 games while your little brother is getting offered the PS5. Instead of trying to gut his new toy, maybe just go play with it. Every range killers but Artist were B tier at best, now we have one that's slightly competitive and suddenly we should kill it because it doesn't run on outdated materials? Yes Trickster and Huntress suck atm, they offer nothing worth the effort of playing them. To keep the videogame metaphor running : what we should do is ask the team to keep their old gameplay but remake them in HD so they can tackle the new generation, meaning adding something for them to cross the map faster because that's what everyone needs to stay competitive nowadays and Jason is barely scraping ok tier precisely because of that.
Yeah lets just make every killer Kaneki, Blight, and Jason.
That will make the game more fun for sure.
These two are far from jason he is a-tier but not that high as these two.
I dont think he needs much nerfs like only thing I would change is omnipresent:
jasons spears are ok they are rng too and his exit speed isnt that of a problem.
The examples you give all assume that you reload while not in Omnipresent Evil. You travel at 8m/s, can reload in 0.5 seconds and although it is not specified, it seems that you can reload within about 1.5 meters of a scrap pile. So going back into power gives you a very fast reload, replenishes your haste and allows you to reappear blocking a window or pallet and getting 4 seconds of killer instinct on the person you are chasing.
Also according to the wiki, the window block is 4 seconds and the reappear time is 1.5 seconds.
It needs to be toned down a lot. It essentially makes him a 4.6 m/s killer
I decided to run a match just to see, in a single chase i was able to reload 3 times at 1 tile, once from hook, once from a pile, and then once from a refresh, my greatest downtime of not having a spike in my hand was about 10 seconds, I understand what you are trying to say, but you are exaggerating the difficulty it adds, especially when you get hooks whenever you hook a survivor, as i can attest my aim aint perfect, but it doesnt need to be when i also can do the fundamentals well enough on top