The Hag - Balance Changes [Updated]
This forum post will explore ideas for making the Hag relevant in a post-10-year anniversary of Dead by Daylight (DbD).
A Brief Mention of Perks:
- Hex: Ruin
- Hex Devour Hope
- Hex: Third Seal
I consider these three perks to be balanced and generally perfect in their current state and fit well with Hag's overall character (a Witch archetype cursing survivors). Ruin is no longer overtuned (old 200% regression - patch 3.5.0) but isn't useless either (no longer deactivates when a survivor is sacrificed - patch 6.1.0). These Hexes are rewarding and create healthy side objectives for survivors, prolonging the match for the killer.
The Hag: From A to D Tier
During her prime in the early years of DbD, the Hag was once considered a strong A-tier killer. However, as the game evolved around her, she continued to fall further and further behind the rest of the killer roster. Four specific changes were introduced to the core game that negatively impacted the Hag:
- Basekit Endurance after being unhooked [6.1.0]
- Anti-Camp feature [7.3.0]
- Hook Stage Timer (60-70 seconds) [8.20]
- Pallet Density Update [9.2.0]
Isolated, these changes don't mean much, but altogether have made playing Hag an uphill battle: 1) Basekit Endurance meant Hag was no longer able to secure an immediate down from the survivor who had just been unhooked (hence why Decisive Strike and Borrowed Time were so meta back in early DbD); 2) Hag could no longer proxy camp a survivor within her web; 3) the extended hook stages created less pressure for survivors to run into the mine field of Hag's web; 4) and the pallet density made it more difficult for Hag to secure an early down.
Generally speaking, some of these changes were necessary and healthy for the game; however, it undeniably hurt what made Hag so powerful.
Despite all the doom and gloom, Hagatha was still able to stand (or limp) on her two feet. Although on paper she seems to be a rather weak killer, she can also be a formidable pub stomper. It may be her small size, small terror radius, low-pick rate, or the genuine skill and planning from her dedicated players, Hag manages to dominate most public matches. Give a good Hag the time to set up her web early game, and she can easily dominate survivors—experienced or not.
So, if Hag is such a good pub stomper, why bother with exploring new changes? Well, it isn't the complete story. I'll go more into detail in the next section.
Power: Blackened Catalyst
Hag's ability, like a lot of the earlier-designed killers, is quite simple: place trap > survivor triggers trap > teleport and follow up with a hit. This ability has 4 specific layers that are highlighted in her add-ons:
- Teleportation Range [base 48 meters]
- Trap Setting Speed [base 1.9 seconds]
- Trap Trigger Range [base 2.7 meters]
- Phantasim Duration [base 6 seconds]
Following the 6.7.0 Mid-Chapter, where Light Burn interactions were removed from certain killers, Hag's traps were now able to be removed with a swipe action [4-seconds to wipe trap away] to avoid her being, in Bhvr's words, "too oppressive." This was both a buff and a nerf to the Hag since her traps couldn't be removed during chase. But it also meant that survivors were given more agency for countering Hag since it didn't require bringing a specific item to the trial. Ultimately, this change was fine and provided a healthy counter-play to the Hag. However, there is a different, unintended counterplay to Hag that needs to be addressed aside from wiping traps.
Unintended Counterplay: Harassing Hag's Traps
When setting a trap as Hag, you'll notice a radius surrounding the muddy symbol you just drew into the ground. The radius is the trigger range for survivors activating the phantasm, giving the Hag the ability to teleport and hit the survivor. However, some players have discovered that if you step just on the edge of the trap's radius and run in the opposite direction of the phantasm, the Hag cannot get an immediate teleport hit on the survivor. This tech completely defeats the purpose of her traps: the counterplay should be wiping her traps, not intentionally setting them off without consequence (this is commonly referred to as 'harassing' Hag's traps).
Note: Harassing Hag's traps in itself isn't a problem, but it shouldn't be without consequence upon successful teleports (i.e., using Spring Burst or triggering Hag's traps when she is unable to teleport [carrying a survivor; breaking animation; out of teleportation range; etc.] are legitimate forms of counterplay).
Unless the devs say otherwise, this should not be the intended counterplay. When Hag received some very welcome buffs in patch 7.6.0, the devs changed her trigger range add-ons from an increased trigger radius to a decreased one. This was intended to address this issue; however, it doesn't matter how much you decrease the radius… the survivors can still use this "tech" and avoid being hit by the Hag regardless of how efficient she may be with her teleports.
Therefore, Hag's trigger range add-ons are generally redundant (you can still secure hits on unsuspecting survivors with these add-ons; however, the add-ons in themselves don't cause the hit).
Hag isn't the worst killer in the game; however, with so many changes over the years, Hag is being pushed further and further away from modern DbD. I think it's important to ask ourselves how much is too much counterplay?
My final point: it's a genuine frustration that survivors can harass Hag's traps without any consequence. In fact, it's often better to do this strategy than actually wiping her traps! So if it's a better alternative to counterplay, why should the wipe interaction exist at all? In conclusion, let Hag's primary counterplay be wiping her traps, not harassing them!
Updating The Hag For A Modern Dead By Daylight
If I were tasked with alleviating this issue, I would implement one single change to the Hag's kit to make her the formidable killer she once was. But before I offer my own changes, I want to deal with a common argument I see a lot of Hag mains suggest that I vehemently disagree with: making Hag a 4.6 m/s killer.
Making Hag 4.6 m/s will create bad incentives for not using her ability as intended. Hag shouldn't (ideally) be gaining bloodlust by running around a pallet to hit or down a survivor. Your primary injuries should be from triggered traps (hence why I strongly oppose the trap harassment tech), not bloodlust. Otherwise, it completely defeats the purpose of her ability.
Keeping Hag 4.4 m/s incentivises players to use her traps as her primary way to injure survivors. Sure, you can chase the comp Ace around Cow Tree on Cold Wind Farm with bloodlust three and only four traps across the map, but it's incredibly inefficient. I'm being hyperbolic, but the point remains the same: the 4.4 m/s isn't a simple balance decision, but it is there to drive incentives as well.
So, if 4.6 m/s is off the table, what's next?
Well, let's cover what we learned so far:
- Movement speed is 4.4 to create trap incentives
- The trap incentives exist as Hag's primary way to injure survivors
- However, survivors can trigger and harass Hag's traps with no to little consequence
[Change] When a survivor triggers a trap, the Hag receives a 40% lunge increase upon teleporting to the triggered trap.
Note: Think of it like Nurses' increased lunge after a blink.
This one change solves Hag's biggest grievance of trap harassment and now incentivises survivors to wipe her traps as a primary counterplay AND gives a stronger incentive for players to use her traps! In other words, it's the best of both worlds (note: the increased lunge would only work on immediate teleports to the phantasm).
With this change, maps like Eyrie of Crows will feel less like an uphill battle (uphill feeling like Mount Everest) and give her a somewhat fighting chance.
Add-Ons:
- Teleportation Range
- Trap Setting Speed
- Phantasm Duration
- Aura Reveal
These four add-ons, for simplicity sake, should remain the same. There is a fair debate whether Hag should have universal teleportation as basekit to keep her updated with modern DbD. I'm not against this, and I'm open to other ideas to replace her teleportation range add-ons. But the other three add-ons are perfect, and I wouldn't touch them, personally.
Trigger Range Add-ons:
[New] Increased lunge by 10%, 15%, 20% after teleporting to a triggered phantasm.
The trap trigger range add-ons are redundant. This new rework seeks to address what the original add-ons intended to fulfil. At max, the Hag can have a 75% lunge attack after a teleport. But the base range is already enough that Hag mains can mix and match other add-ons for more variety.
Very Rare Add-Ons:
Disfigured Ear: [Change] Survivors who trigger a trap are deafened for 6 seconds and suffer from obliviousness for 20 seconds.
Note: I love the uniqueness of the deafened status effect, but I know some other players don't like it, so I'm willing to omit that part from this add-on.
Grandma's Heart: [New] Survivors who trigger a trap suffer from blindness and exhaustion for 15 seconds.
Rusty Shackles: [no change]
Scarred Hand: [no change]
Iridescent Add-Ons:
Mint Rag: [Change] Hag can teleport map-wide with no limit to her teleportation range.
Waterlogged Shoe: [no change]
A brief rant about the "Chag" playstyle: I personally do not support the Chag playstyle (Chase-Hag) since many pseudo "Hag mains" fall into the temptation of only using these add-ons, which, in my opinion, change Hag from a strategic, area control killer to a simple glorified M1 killer. It completely kills her identity. It's fun to run as a gimmick, but solely using these add-ons does NOT make you a Hag main.
Conclusion:
I am praying that we will see new changes for Hag in upcoming mid-chapters. It's depressing to see so many killers get changes and updates, but it seems like everyone, including community consultants, have completley forgot this character exists. Hag deserves better.
I would appreciate any feedback, and let me know what changes you would like to see.
Comments
@pidgeon
A hag thing I think would be neat would be to change her traps to different trap types that she can choose between. Like take the add on that makes the traps able to body block once triggered. Make it she can pick between a wide range of different traps that can do different things. One to body block. One for extra tp range. Things of that nature I think could be cool.
I understand balancing this would be a struggle for bhvr since ya know…bhvr. But I want her to keep the core of her power as I think she is a pretty cool killer :)
That wouldnt change her at all first blocking traps are only good because the sddon gives speed and makes her faster than normal m1 killer.
Traps can be destroyed normaly and she has no ability without them sl either make her faster or give her more range to teleport on traps or something that makes her more reliable because even if her traps gave her guarantee hit she wouldnt be that high annyway like if there isnt trap hag is almost done.
She got destroyed by antihook basekit protection then COH meta but that is gone and now her traps can be destroyed by anyone.
Like giving her no slowdown /hinder when she tps to her trap and giver her cooldown so she can tp to any trap which is shackless addon I think and she eould be viable more than this.
Even with this she would be picked super low due to her playstyle that isnt so active and for majority its boring like just go around snd set trsps, wait for someone to trigger some, tp and smack them and repeat untill someone gets hooked till he dies. Not fun for killer player its less engaging than trapper.
Did you bother to read the post at all? …
Hag players are the most dedicated mains I swear. Every time I see a Hag player give feedback it's always an essay that's usually pretty well thought out just so BHVR can brush it off because of her low playrate not making her a priority.
From what I remember I don't think the lunge idea works because if I remember correctly there are scenarios where you can have coup equipped and still not be able to hit out a teleport so it'd have to be something mental like 120% or something.
I think doing something similar to her like trapper where you get haste after setting a trap could be an idea. it gives her the ability to chase without relying on bloodlust while still encouraging relying on the traps. Although it might make the setting speed add ons too good.
I dont know where I heard this but long long looong ago Cote said that Hag was his favorite killer and just seeing how she has just kinda been forgotten really is sad :(
Thank you for that feedback! It means a lot!
Regarding Coup de Grace, it has now become an essential perk in my loadout, and I can confidently confirm that the increased lunge is an absolute success for hitting survivors who abuse Hag's traps (unless running an Exhaustion perk!).
However, I will concede that I was tossing and turning on the final base number, as I was concerned about whether it would be too much with other increased lunge perks like Coup or All-Shaking Thunder. So, I'm happy to tweak the numbers if necessary, but I typically find Coup and AST's lunge is more than enough.
Thanks!
Wow, really? That's so upsetting…
Was this post written by AI?
No… all human.
I can assume you say that for two reasons:
I used to write a lot of blogs on other topics outside of gaming for reference.
Regardless, I hope you enjoyed the post.
Genuinely hate how people auto assume ai because of the emphen it has gotten so bad I can't even use it in essay anymore.
Either than that disfigured ear would be my favorite add-on if they went though with these changes, I approve of pretty much all of these.
Thank you so much for writing this post. Very strong arguments, very well organized.
I really hope that BHVR sees this post and others like it from the few of us Hag mains that are left and give her the much-needed attention to keep one of the most unique and expressive killers a chance in today's DBD.
You are 100% right, an unintended and exploitative counter with absolutely zero downside can effectively remove her power and makes winning against good teams quite literally impossible on some maps. I don't see how something so simple should be able to so thoroughly punish the killer from using their power. Instead, rewarding prediction on BOTH sides of the matchup should be prioritized, as you pointed out.
I do want to point out that even running coup de grace now does not guarantee a hit against this exploit and would add a small but important hindered penalty on top of your suggested lunge buff to really make sure that stepping in traps is still dangerous.
I have also tried writing similar posts. I hope this one gains traction and gets in front of some people at BHVR. We might not play the most popular killer, but Hag mains do love her, we love the game, and we just want to see the Hag get to a place where she feels fair and rewarding to play again.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I hope you enjoyed it! :)
I really appreciated your feedback, and thank you for taking the time to read my post! :)
It's funny you mention "hinder," because it was actually something I mentioned in my original post, but after feedback, I omitted it. Maybe a basekit hinder for triggered teleports is what's necessary for Hag, but keep the concept of lunge add-ons as well?
At this point, all we can do is pray BHVR notices our small voice within this community…
Of course! Always excited to see other people who care about the Hag!
I think the important thing is getting rid of unintended and unfair counterplay. How you get there - lunge, hinder, anything - is just a detail that requires testing. I strongly believe that the fixes for this should be in her basekit, add-ons should offer more flexibility or options.
Once that's taken care of, and it would be massive, then I also think she could use a few quality of life changes, too, like a bigger basekit teleport range and some sort of notification when traps are wiped.