How much more anti-camp and anti-tunnel do survivors need?
Survivors have been given:
- Basekit BT (With Haste)
- Insane OTR Buff
- Reassurance
- Kinship
- Hook Grab Removal
- Anti-Camp meter
Oh, and lest we forget pre-existing DS.
Now we are getting +10sec on hook stages.
My question is, how much anti-tunnel and anti-camp do Survivors need until they admit it's a skill issue if they're complaining about camping?
Also, I see a lot of players saying things like "if you don't camp this doesn't affect you". Some killers need to secure stages to win from time to time. If I'm playing GF or Trapper, waddling around the map looking for more fresh people to hook is a fantastic way to lose the game. This has nothing to do with skill; NOT camping against good teams in many situations is setting yourself up for an automatic loss. You literally DO NOT have the time to do that. People need to stop pretending that this is somehow fault of the player.
Comments
The idea of it being a 'skill issue' and not a 'coordination issue' is laughable. Soloq has no coordination, and is more than half of Survivors found in matches. That means regardless of skill, half of the players simply don't have the coordination to make use of the value these features can provide. Weak skilled Killers have long abused this lack of coordination, instead of gaining more skill in chase or macro. I win more than 74% of my matches before the gens even pop*, and I main Ghosty (followed by [in no particular order] Legion, Clown, Myers, Trapper, Dredge, and then more powerful Killers less often than those prior). You literally DO have the time to play correctly without camping or tunneling. Failing to learn that skill is the only reason that players using those Killers couldn't win consistently (consistently being anything above the 60% kill rate).
*Gen Defense counts the % of games where you win before the final gen pops as Killer. (Which means it doesn't include games where you win after the final gen pops.)
I guess I can see why you're mentioning Solo Q because if you're going against potatoes all day then you DO have the time to play "correctly". I am not including bad players in this argument. Obviously Solo Q players will go down insanely quickly to mouse 1 killers but that's because Soloq players are terrible.
Please go against a good team and try to go around the map, going for many chases as a mouse 1 killer and record the results. I think you will learn something.
These changes do nothing for Soloq because solo q is and always has been trash no matter what. All they do is buff swf when they dont need it.
Given that the "anti tunnel" solutions don't really exist, and the only change in two years to buff anti tunneling is a +2 seconds to DS that they immediately walked back to +1s, you're really just complaining about anti camping features.
And the answer to: how many anti camping features are the devs going to add? It's this:
As many as it takes for killers to leave a hook and chase survivors instead of staring at furniture.
It's a lot like the 10 seconds of BT, which does literally nothing and has no impact on the game unless the killer is already at the hook, or goes back to hook within 10 seconds of the unhook (so, camping or proxy camping).
The extra 10 seconds of hook timer has no impact on the game unless the killer is hanging out near hook. Survivors always want to unhook as fast as possible, because the game is effectively a 1v3 while someone is in time out on hook. That's why immediate unhooking/hook bombing exists, is to make the game 1v4 as soon as possible and reduce the killer's pressure.
The people who are against this change either do not understand the basics of pressure in this game, or are actively trying to undermine the change because they want to watch paint dry near a hook. This is why reassurance got severely nerfed from the ptb before it even went live.
The devs have taken a pretty hard stance against camping with the removal of hook grabs, AFC, and now extra hook timer. At some point people need to go do their actual objective by chasing survivors instead of standing still.
Except for the fact that the game is built around kills and not going around the map spreading hooks?
I don't know how else to put it when I say that spreading hooks is a free loss against decent teams and it has nothing to do with skill. If you hook one guy, then go for a fresh survivor, then another, then repeat the cycle then the game will be a 1v4 for the majority of the match meaning gens will just fly.
If they want to make the game balanced around spreading hooks then they need to make spreading hooks an actual effective strategy because it just isn't. There's a reason why the best strategy in top level play is to just tunnel tunnel tunnel.
Against bad/weaker teams you can do it but it doesn't hold up against teams who don't go down in 20 seconds and are actually efficient on generators.
This is not fault of the player and anyone who says so either doesn't have enough time on the game or is just a survivor main.
Your comment that people against this change don't understand the basics of pressure is funny because if you ask any player with above 7k hours what the best strategy is against decent teams they will tell you what I am saying. Waddling around the map (especially if you are playing low tier killer) looking for fresh people will result in a loss against decent teams. It has nothing to do with how good you are.
It's a bell curve. Beginner players think that camping camping tunneling tunneling is best. Intermediate players think that going around the map for many chases is viable against good teams (because they rarely actually go against good teams) and experienced players know that getting someone out ASAP is the best strategy.
If BHVR had been willing to do a substantial change from the get go, piece meal actions would not have been needed. There have been lots of changes, but BHVR has been cautious requiring multiple actions.
Reassurance and kinship are perks, perks should give value. You need to give up something to take them.
Your comment that people against this change don't understand the basics of pressure is funny because if you ask any player with above 7k hours what the best strategy is against decent teams they will tell you what I am saying.Scott Jund has at least one video on the idea that tunneling is the default best/only strategy is wrong. Many people thing its the best tactic, but far from unanimous.
Also, the Asian top level meta disagrees with you as spreading pressure is a much more common tactic.
Implement literally everything you can think of and somehow there would be a people who gets tunneled out
I think the tools for anti-tunnel are there just they're not often run because they're altruistic perks which don't get run as much because soloQ players have trust issues about their teammates.
I wouldn't buff them anymore but I would nerf killer perks that enable camping like deadlock and DMS. Deadlock is just bad game design like old MFT it's rewarding the killer passively for failing. DMS needed to be changed ages ago, it feels like that perk causes a new issue every 5-6 months. If a killer is going to do nothing but stare at a survivor on a hook the gens should fly because they're doing nothing to stop them. In addition we should buff perks like Surge that encourage chasing, the design is good it just deserves a larger reward.
DMS hardly enable camping because you needs to pressure survivors just like ruin, and "rewarding for failing" is never a bad design in it's core
MFT's problem was extremely strong effect, extremely easy condition and no counter nature, not the way it worked
I actually agree with Scott. His point in that video is that there are situations where camping and tunneling are necessary and some times where they are not.
There are times where you should not tunnel and times where you should. You shouldn't just be following a manual which says "TUNNEL EVERYONE".
I'm saying that tunneling is the best overall/smart strategy. In fact Scott agrees with that in the video.
Tunneling and camping are tools. In my opinion they are necessary tools. However just like any tool you cannot rely on it to do everything. This is where people get my point wrong. They think I am saying you need to turbo tunnel and camp every survivor.
My point is that survivors have been given enough tools to counteract tunneling and camping, and people think that's fine because they believe that killers should just be spreading hooks rather than camping/tunneling from time to time and that's just not the case. In many games you NEED to get someone out as quickly as possible. It is the smartest thing to do (Scott agrees with me on that too). Spreading hooks is not effective enough to justify nerfing the best killer strategy. BHVR needs to stop beating tunneling/camping killers with a stick and start giving them the carrot by implementing a system which rewards them for spreading hooks.
This used to be the case but has changed since pain res and the grim embrace rework happened. Not to mention how often survivors let go to go to hook. I'm really not a fan of passive slowdown if it's not a part of the killer's kit. In perk form it just comes across as very lazy the exception being Ruin because at least that you need to actively defend the totem.
BHVR needs to stop beating tunneling/camping killers with a stick and start giving them the carrot by implementing a system which rewards them for spreading hooks.But as gets pointed out every time this comes up, to incentive anything to the level of getting a survivor out of the game is nearly impossible. 40 seconds of grim embrace apparently wasn't enough to do it.
This would be like a gen rush SWF saying the problem isn't a full gen rush build, its that boons should be 5 times as strong and then they'd actually run them.
The game can be broken on both sides and create impossible/unfun situations. Boosting other options isn't the right idea, making the thing you want to get rid of harder is the way to approach it.
Painres, grim embrace or DMS doesn't work nicely with camping, it's never a "passive slowdown", those only works when killer puts enough effort
Only 1/4 or 1/9 of slowdown, gens will just fly without any problem,it's fine without perks and it's extremely easy to counter with perks
"But survivors are inefficient" is not really a nice argument, we also have efficient survivors who can use reassurance or can unhook camped survivor somehow too
This shows that anti camp and anti tunnel stuff doesn‘t get its job done.
Those things are only a small annoyance, but don‘t really hinder the killer.
1-3 are good, that we have them.
No idea what 4 even is.
5-6 I don‘t like that they removed hook grabs. They were a fun part of the game and 6 did nothing good. The AFC made only camping worse by turning most camper into proxy campers, which is stronger, turned them into tunnlers or some people leave you on the hook, because they think the AFC does anything.
The +10s on hook are very good, because it discourages it and makes it weaker. This is how I wished behavior would have done it, instead of the anti camp face mechanic.
You forgot babysitter buff
They actually hinder the killer quite alot.
Killers who need to tunnel most (freddy, trapper, Myers etc) have a nightmare going through those defenses against good teams. They give so much time to good survivors who know how to use them. Basekit BT, for example, guarantees you can get to a loop before the killer can hit you again unless you're hooked in a deadzone and the killer is camping.
What this actually shows is that there are many bad survivor players who would rather beg BHVR for another basekit feature than actually use the numerous tools given to them.
If you ever go against a 4-man, try tunneling one of them out as a mouse 1 killer, and you will see the extent to which these features handhold already good players who don't need them.
because they will never get happy and find it enough. if survivor is getting tunneled constantly, they are simply bad and lack the necessary skill .
Everyone is always going against predominantly soloq. Your complaints only have merit if you are sweating in scrims. Otherwise the vast majority of matches will easily be winnable, and if you want to improve, simply chase the best player of the lobby. If you want to complain about the 1/100 match that you get a clock calling SWF, then just say you want to balance around the top 1%, and the remaining 99% of people shouldn't have a voice.
SWF/ good teams are not as rare as you think they are. 1/100 is not nearly the amount of SWFs I get more like 1 in 5.
And even if it was 1/100, your argument is still "change good because players bad". That's not the proper way to balance a game.
and this is exactly why DS was buffed from 3 sec. many bad players thinking it was a bad perk because they would activate it and just run in a straight line. good players planned a spot to use it so they could reset a loop. but now its 4 seconds
Not all SWFs are clock SWFs, and not all SWFs are 4-mans. IIRC from BHVR's stats, 5% of matches are 4's. I'd say minimum 50% are just goofing off with their friends. Then among the remaining half, how many are utter garbage at the game regardless of how hard they try? When you get through all the filters, I was being generous to give you 1/100 of matches being clock SWFs.
Why is it a skill issue for survivors, but not a skill issue for a killer to "need to secure stages to win from time to time" by camping? I'd argue that if you need to hover around a hook then that's also a skill issue
you dont need to be a clock swf in order to abuse these changes.
I play with my swf and we are not insane at survivor, but every time a killer plays "nice" and spreads hooks we always just genrush them. It's not that hard to take advantage of the fact that the killer is keeping it a 1v4 for the majority of the game.
But what does that have to do with this change?
If a killer is spreading hooks it doesn't matter whether the hook timer is 60 seconds or 70.
Because they literally can't secure stages at all against good survivors from the beginning
It's efficiency is only determined by survivor's competence, of course it will be called skill issue on survivor's side, whether killers can win with it or not is never a point
because survivors have been given a multitude of buffs to greatly protect themselves from camping yet killer has been given nothing to buff the fact that spreading hooks is stressful and inefficient?
spreading hooks = inefficient and stressful = killers camp/tunnel instead = basekit buffs to survivors to prevent that = no buffs to spreading hooks
spreading hooks is a bad strategy, which is why I mentioned that every time my swf goes against a killer doing it they lose.
so what can the killer do? well they can tunnel and camp instead
except oh wait we're making that even more difficult. there is the problem
spreading hooks is a bad strategy, which is why I mentioned that every time my swf goes against a killer doing it they lose.And if they outright camp they should lose as well. As a SWF if they camp the hook you all should be prepared with not just a Reassurance, but just to sit on your gens.
The best teams I hit when playing killer, I have to spread pressure. I have to try and snowball. If I try to tunnel they just stay on gens, FTP, bodyblock, etc.
I mean you can't really abuse hook duration if the Killer was playing the 'correct' way against SWF anyways. This will just teach them not to rely on camping as much, which will also improve soloq QOL. Once the Killers that relied on camping adapt, then they will be able to win without abusing the 'ez-win against soloq' strats.
Also spreading hooks is a great strategy. You get to test the waters, and put pressure on the weak link to create deadzones. Then you can intercept hook rescues (on anyone from anyone) to force another to hop off gens. If you have too many hook stages and plenty of gens to spare, take a bad chase and try something new to turn that into a future good chase. That's how I got my winrate, which is well above the balanced around amount. Adversity is good, its where you learn and improve. If a Killer is crutching on strats that mostly win against soloq, then they have no right to complain when they never entered the physical therapy of spreading hooks and the crutches are finally removed.
You only have to play dirty to win if you lacked the skill to beat them in the first place. Take the chance and learn from the loss. The next match will be closer, and the match after that even closer, until you will win instead.
And this is the other thing that's wrong with trying to discuss this. Blaming bad game mechanics on the player.
No, it has nothing to do with skill when I say that playing nice as Myers against the 4 man will net you a loss.
In fact if you say otherwise then that's just a self report.
I guess every time Otz camped with Trapper, it was his fault because he simply didn't have enough skill. It's not like literally everything was leaning towards the survivor's favor.
The chase SHOULD be front and center but it's not. The game literally isn't balanced around going for multiple chases. Survivors will rush gens and leave. It's balanced around kills and the devs have said so.
Which is why you don't turbo camp every person you hook, you do it strategically…
I may have to as well if the devs are catering towards players who unironically think that waddling around the map as Freddy to go for fresh survivors is a viable strategy against decent teams.
Multiple as in going around the map looking for new survivors to chase.
It's not a viable strategy and it never has been, especially with weaker killers. This is why people tunnel.
I agree with you that the game should be more chase-based, however I believe that the way to do it is to give a basekit incentive to chase multiple survivors and not just nerfing tunneling and camping.
Yeah haha. Cote got bullied in that match. Nerf came like a week later.
If you're going to make the discussion about killers like Freddy against a top tier SWF, that's the reverse of trying to make the discussion just about a cracked Nurse lobby dodging until they hit a group of weak survivors.
Talking about the outliers doesn't really correspond to the overall game.
Until killers stop tunneling, camping and slugging, survivors need more. Those strategies need to be taken out back and shot. Bad killers should be punished for bad behavior.
It shouldn't be a bad strategy, that's the point.
The game needs to change to the point where spreading hooks is the best option the killer has in most cases. That will involve anti-camping/tunneling measures, but should also involve contrasting buffs to killer that aid them when spreading hooks.
no they don't, its only bad survivors who beg for more anti tunnel/anti camp, good survivors know how to use the multitude of tools available to defend themselves and don't complain.
perfect example is DS, 3 sec DS was a great perk and was insanely popular in top play, however idiots who run in a straight line after using it eventually got it buffed because they complained enough.
and im guessing you just want the killer to go for 12 hook games every game? because that's reasonable
Well survivors didn't much enjoy getting slugged for 4 minutes so that was the solution
if we're gonna go there, how many updates to address boring play styles before killer players realise they're not playing the way God intended?
I'm being a little tounge in cheek here, but seriously. why is it always Survivors failing to get good to deal with stuff and not killers fault for abusing playstyles the devs have said they don't want taking over the game, especially when those "survivor buffs" rarely affect normal gameplay
except for the fact that these outliers are the main demographic that's been targeted by these changes.
nurse/blight dont GAF because they dont HAVE to tunnel against good teams. they are already strong killers. only weaker killers are hurt
no, these changes hurt weak killers more because weak killers rely on tunneling more than strong killers. its not an insane leap of logic. this will do nothing for any killer B tier and above. literally only hurts weaker killers because those killers have to tunnel
no they don't, its only bad survivors begging for more, good survivors know how to counter it using the multitude of tools they've been giving. bad survivors continue whining and insist that they should be given god mode off hook and #########, and that the killer should just be 12 hooking everyone.
I guess, enough until killers stop tunnelling and hard camping?
I never tunnel or camp when I play killer and I still manage to win most matches, even though my main role is still survivor. Only exception is 6 second switchers or very toxic BMing survivors, in which case I will tunnel them hard.
Some killers play every match hard tunnelling even at 5 gens and the sooner we can make that completely non-viable the better.
Oh and I am an approaching 5k hours Andy between my main and 2 other accounts…
Until survivors will get a chance to play the game instead of being out of a match in 2min.
I wish people who made these threads posted proof of them being high MMR.
Without any substance these threads just look like being upset at losing or being upset at potentially losing more in the future.
I almost exclusively play "weak killers" (Myers, Ghostface, Pig, Dredge, Doctor) and I never intentionally tunnel or camp outside of EGC. I don't have an issue with winning. I probably have an above average win rate at around 60-65%.
This whole "killers need to camp and tunnel or they lose" has always been bunk. There are some niche scenarios where a bit of camping can be useful, usually scenarios instigated by survivors in the first place. But for the most part, if you feel you need to camp/tunnel to have a chance, you're probably doing something wrong and not applying enough pressure. Or you mistakenly believe you should be winning every game, or letting confirmation bias lead you to believe that the 40% of games you lose are somehow more significant than they are.
To answer the core question, as much more as it takes for camping and tunnelling to stop being problems.
There's something else I'd like to comment on, though. In this thread and in others, I've seen people say things like "You don't have time to wander around the map looking for fresh survivors to chase", and that's always struck me as a little bit of a self report, not to be too rude here.
What if you just go straight to the survivors because you already know where they are, through info perks or good basekit tracking? Kinda seems like the thing losing you games is actually a lack of knowledge regarding survivor location, not that you've left the hook. That should be a good thing for you to hear, though! It's something you can improve at without needing the game to change, and it's not even that hard to do, either.
Actually spreading pressure is a vastly better tactic than camping out a hook stage, because it slows down gen repair innately. Something that weakens camping won't affect killers who know how to leverage that fact, not even players picking weaker killers.
I also agree with this sentiment, to an extent.
Some killers, mainly the weaker cast, can't afford both long chases they naturally are stuck in and map traversal at the same time, even if they know where the other survivors are and especially on larger maps. Problem with fixing any of that though are the killers who CAN afford to move across the map with ease. I was adepting Hag the other day and it's night and day using Mint Rag even if it's just to traverse the map easier. Survivors still have the option to hide, pre-run, and loop good tiles on top of it as well.
Not saying this as a bad player either, most of my Sadako matches end with a 3-4k with maybe less than half getting a Mori because at least with Sadako I do have map traversal options when survivors aren't TV hounds. It's a rough thing to balance when you have both 4.4 speed Hag or Deathslinger in crowded maps and tiles and killers like Blight and Nurse in the same game.
Not every killer is on pig level. Most killers can tunnel someone very easily and don‘t say killers should all have it easy to tunnel. Tunneling is far too efficient and even with those perks it’s still easier to tunnel than to go for someone else, which shows how good they are.
Basekit borrow time only gives you a chance to do something to not make it completely unfair.
You can‘t compare all players to comp players. Comp players are not a big part of the community and not everyone got the time and will to become as good as they are.
Maps become easier and easier for killers, which means survivors can do less and less against tunneling, which then means they have to change something to make it not completely unfair.