Stop hard tunneling.
No I'm not complaining about tunneling in general, i tend to be understanding of the concept. The thing I have an issue with is the worst kind of tunneling. Standard tunneling is whatever, if you find a double hooked surv and a no hook surv on a gen, you have a choice and the double hooked surv is the tactical choice every time. I'm talking about hard repeatedly tunneling the same surv off hook to the exclusion of all others straight off the bat. Heck I'm not even that fussed about tunneling straight off hook if it's done mid-late game.
It's this situation. Killer gets their first hook after a realtively short chase, realises that surv is mid/weak at chase. Killer then proxy camps said hook, maybe they manage to force the surv to stage, then as soon as the surv is unhooked, they hit them off hook and commit to the exclusively chase them again down them quickly rinse repeat. You get one survivor dead at 4-5 gens left. That one survivor has no chance to play the game, and the rest of the team is screwed because the game is not supposed to be a 3v1. We've all had games like that.
There has to be a system where the game can recognise that the killer is focusing out one player to the exclusion of all others. In the specific situation where you have 2 hooks on the same player, 0 hooks on anyone else and they are chasing the 2 hooked player there should be some kind of game intervention. Something that stops this kind of play dead. Peehsps a system where the surv on taking the second hit straight off of hook gets teleported to thebopposite side of the map and insta hesled or just invincibility or invisibility that gets cancelled if the killer hooks another player or if a survivor struggles out (obvs I wouldn't want to see survs abusing a mechanic like this for free bodyblocks) this would give the tunneled surv an opportunity to get out of the killer's sight and have a chance to heal and actually try to counter play by going stealthy so they can still achieve something in the match.
Normally it's fairly rare but I've seen an uptick in this kind of play from killers over the last couple of weeks, probably killers getting tilted by black banquet, and an awful lot of jasons too. I'm sure some people will simply call skill issue over this, but this type of tunneling is immensely easy for killers to do and very difficult for all but the best survivor teams to effectively prevent. By the time you realise how hard killer is committing to this it's usually too late to simply genrush. And it literally tanks the game, one surv gets next to no bp and is dead within minutes of the game starting. And the rest of the team is screwed unless there is a wild skill gap between killer and the 3 remaining survivors and they just so happened to demonise the 1 weak surv in a group.
Comments
I said either role. The imbalance is just more visible on the survivor side. One baby can throw a match out of whack for the other survivors. One survivor with triple the hours can still be beaten if the rest of the team is more on the killer's level. What's the strawman?
We're shifting the topic a bit here. This post was in reference to killers immediately tunneling, not tunneling when they feel desperate. These are people who want to push the "I win" button immediately. If a killer feels like they can't win ever without tunneling then they're in over their head and need to drop in MMR. It's only a proper skill issue if the skill levels are at least marginally equal and their was a fair shot. But if a killer hits someone off hook and then throws poison at them in a deadzone so they literally cannot react or get to anything there's no skill to express. That's just uncounterable cheese, and the killer knows it quite well.
I'm asking killers that cheese their way to the top to just accept it isn't the game, it's thier decisions. These people are the meme of the kid putting a stick in his own bike spokes and blaming someone else. And what I mean by blaming the game is blaming things like perks or pallets. Matchmaking is a genuine concern but that's not what most people default to blaming. They blame the toxic evil enemy side and all its OP handholding. Many people in this community are allergic to admitting that other players can be much better than them.
This is the same example as my comp team except I lost. We're saying the same thing. But you're also kinda making my point. A killer can be new and screw up and still beat better survivors. I do this every day. The survivors I play against are almost always better than I am at survivor. It's an easy thing for me to identify playing both regularly. But bad survivors don't really beat good killers, and that's because killer is not in the bad place people want it to be.
My argument is that killer queue times are longer than normal and the role is not undesirable. I have never had to wait in line at my normal play time. Now I do. People are playing killer. That's it. That's the whole point.
The BP bonus is well known to be buggy and erratic. A few months ago I had this happen:
Even though there was no queue for killer. I've generally had no BP bonuses on the event on either role at my time despite killer having a small line. That may be because they want survivors to go to the longer 1v4 queue instead. It's much better to use the online queue times as gage than the BP bonus.
Ah fair. Ok.
Just checked, If your checking using Dead By Queue (which I think you are) that doesn't account for the event queue, which is what weve been talking about for so long
The biggest issue is this word right here:
Deserve.
MMR is not a badge of honor. It's not an achievement or a goal. It's not even visible. It's a matchmaking tool. This word is what makes people act this way. They think MMR is a ladder to climb, like a ranked mode, and a thing to brag about, even though it's all just assumption based.
I shouldn't have been matched to Momoseventh multiple times as survivor. I shouldn't be put against comp teams as killer. It's not a matter of deserved. It's just not where I should be. But if you stay above the goal numbers, as I do, it's where you end up. And you will struggle, as I struggle, if you're not ready for it. This is why there are people who lose on purpose to tank their MMR. I commend them for recognizing that they aren't where they should to be. They have the sense to not sweat for stats or care about invisible numbers.
Scroll down.
If you scroll down it shows the event queue times as well. However in general you can't infer much based on the queue times as they are very much time and region dependent, and vary with your MMR
TY XD thats embarrassing.
Yeah, killer queues equal 6s uk, survivors equal 6s rn. Ill check again tommorrow when its not midnight here, but that means theres a perfect 1:4 ratio rn it seems so 20% of current players are killers, which is much lower than the 80% survivors . Killer queue times off event are 1:23 and survivors are 6s. What this suggests to me is theres too many killers on normal queue and A lot less than normal killers in event queue.
I mean I'd agree if it was a minor shift, but the trend over the past week and a half has been such a major shift that matches at least what the forum is saying.
I wonder how the killer mains would feel like if they were stunned in place for 70 seconds, unable to play the game, watching the gens fly around them if they hard-tunneled someone, because that is how it really feels like being on the receiving end of it.
"Id argue sadly thats part of it being a 4v1, it doesn't make it any less of a skill issue on the survivor side. Its annoying and less fun, sure, but its still sadly a skill issue here"
It's a matchmaking issue. In a game with a functioning skill-based matchmaking system, there's no excuse for these huge discrepancies. People can, and should, absolutely complain and expect better from a game they put their time and money into. People should be playing with and against people on the same or similar skill level as themselves. The opposite shouldn't be expected or normalised.
And i know the devs are aware that this isn't acceptable, since Peanits has told us in the past that a higher skilled player besting a lower skilled player will result in low or no MMR gains for the winning individual. Yet these discrepancies seem to happen regularly.
Just because someone has to slug that doesn't mean sunshine and flowers for killer. An example would be someone using Boil Over to run to a hook deadzone (or certain main buildings like Badham lower floor or top floor of ironworks), then just be in awkward situation where you have to leave them there because there's literally nothing you can do.
And funny you mention being stuck for about 70 seconds because that's the time it takes for DS to de-activate which is another reason some killers will leave people on the ground. You can also thank Sabo toolboxes and Background player for scaring off people from picking a survivor up right after a down.
I don't find slugging fun for either side and the only times I do it as killer is when I know that if I pick that survivor up, something is going to go terribly wrong. Asking 'how killer mains would feel' when they get their own baggage to deal with feels like bad faith.
Can we agree that slugging and having reasons to slug both suck equally and should not be looked as survivor only problem?
In the fighting game community, you would get laughed at for complaining about that, and rightfully so.
I suggest reading the free ebook by game designer David Sirlin, Playing to Win. Here is an excerpt from the book: https://www.sirlin.net/ptw
To further add to that, FGC players don't give a ######### on what they have to do to win as long as they win. Putting Mortal Kombat as an example is crazy specially since MK has long since had a history of 50/50 overhead lows and cheap mechanics like super armor or bar spending to make combos safe. Literally mentioning the series from a background spectator's perspective without the proper knowledge to strawman the argument.
Here is one of the best SF2 players in the world daigo playing Ryu notice what he does? Gets his opponent in the corner and then "spams" fireballs. (i say spam in quotes because he is using them in a very specific way that not anyone can just pick up the controller and immediately do)
Should he instead let his opponent out of the corner to "be nice"? because it "isn't fair"? Should he let his opponent get a hit or 2 in because that would be nice? Or should he do whatever he can to completely dominate his opponent and win the match?
I don't understand this notion of "we have to be nice" in DBD. WHY? WHY? Why do i have to change how i play just because it would be "nice"? Why is no other game of ANY kind ever expect that? Why doesn't football? Why not let the other team score a goal to be nice? Why take your opponents queen in chess when they leave it open to be taken? Why aim for the head in counterstrike when your opponent rounds the corner why not aim for the chest and give them a chance?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Vg0QA0FAMYes I'm sure i should absolutely agree with the opinion of some author I've never heard of saying winning at all costs regardless of method is fine. Damn they sound like half of the killer tribal mains on here going "yOuR FuN iS Not mY ReSpoNSibiLiTy" Half the reason I made the comparison is because looking at dbd vs street fighter, tekken, mk etc they are two very different games.
Fighting games like that are a very particular niche. And a level playing field. You all get the same pool of characters, you can do mirror matches, you choose the character you are best with and do your best to use their moveset to win. You can use the same character and utilise the same boring, busted combo. Not in dbd, the 2 sides are very different.
Dbd is an asym. Balance is never going to be level by the nature of the game. The game has virtually no competitive scene beyond community organised tournaments. The roles of the game are open to abuse in a way that you don't see with games that arent asym.
I think a lot of people seem to forget that games are primarily for enjoyment. Sure winning is enjoyable. You have competitive games: street fighter, counterstrike, LoL, overwatch etc. Dbd does not fit that catergory because it would be so uninteresting to watch competitive games with no restrictions because killers would simply do the same thing (tunnel one person out repeatedly) to win. Even the player organised tournaments have to put house rules in place to give them a vague sense of balance, competition and skill expression.
There is a difference between asking the devs to change something that is unfun vs expecting the opponents to not use that thing because it is unfun.
The scrub mentality is going soo strong in dbd.
Its funny that survivors only sometimes get subjected to on of those and killer to all 3.
Its funny that survivors only sometimes get subjected to on of those and killer to all 3.Survivors literally can't be subjected to the first one being that all survivors are the same (though when we've had really quiet survivors, yes, they've been called cheap).
Survivors get accused of 2 and 3.
They also get accused of being in SWFs (whether its true or not), which much like your first is something killers can't be accused of.
Why is no other game of ANY kind ever expect that? Why doesn't football? Why not let the other team score a goal to be nice?It's interesting you cite football as sports in general is a horrible argument for the idea that this is somehow unique to DbD. In sports broadly if a team has a huge lead they put in their backups and stop playing as seriously and its viewed as rude to try and 'run up the score'. In football teams will usually just run the ball with a lead. Baseball has a bunch of these about things teams shouldn't do when winning by a lot (i.e. bunting).
To go back to football, the NFL specifically, teams have given up opportunities to break the most points scored in a game record (this happened notably between the Dolphins and Broncos a few years ago).
Being nice is actually a pretty common idea in sports.
I am not a fan of hard tunneling either. But it's a nuanced problem.
If you get group of casuals with off-meta builds, the hard tunnel from the start practically guarantees a 3 or 4k if the killer gets the kill before a couple of gens are done. The remaining survivors are just playing for hatch in that scenrio and it sucks. If we could reduce this type of hard tunneling that would be great.
But we can't just have a blanket mechanic to take the tool out of the killer's hands because that is not the only type of games that happen in DbD, even if they are the majority.
Sometimes you get those lobbies where it is a SWF on comms or a group of seasoned solos with great game sense who do bring the meta, are good loopers and split up on gens. In that sort of game, especially with some of the weaker killers on the roster, not being able to hard tunnel means they might just lose, straight up. Remember they can't hold a 3gen forever anymore.
So there really isn't an easy solution to this problem.
The first isn't applicable to survivor. The second, people have said multiple times they lobby dodge flashlights and toolboxes. The third, survivors are told off constantly for bodyblocking, using their perks offensively to help others, sticking to gens etc.
@Nazzzak @crogers271
Thanks for pointing out my mistakes. (Honestly, Im hardcore killer biased and dont wanna end up as much a hypocrite i accuse others to be)
But I think the surv examples of flashlights or bodyblocking are interesting.
Item dodging is an acceptable comparison to killer dodging.
Do you think bodyblocking gets comparably as much hate and demands to be changed by devs as tunneling/slugging?
I feel like blocking has been accepted and peopls play around it ntead of being added to the scrub rules.
The guy I was discussing it with was saying a killer either A) playing worse than the survivors (either because mmr or because they picked a weaker killer) or B) being "forced into a higher mmr bracket than they should be due to tunneling", were skill issues on the killers end. His explanation for this was that whilst a killer being bad is only on him, the survivors in soloqueue (who make up only 48% of survivors by recent stats) aren't as accountable as their teammates due to bad mmr ect. I was being this adamant because bad mmr also affects killer (infact moreso when theres not enough survivors to go around, so they make you wait and you get the first survivors available quite often) and in those cases thats 1 killer vs 4 who could possibly all be above the killers mmr, so them being bad there isn't something they should be held accountable.
TLDR: this was actually me debating against the use of things like this being used as a "skill issue", you just happened to see the latest comment in a string of like 10 comments that got us to that point
Sorry for replying to this one a third time, Just gonna revisit queue times.
Normal queue:
Killer 7:25, Survivor:24s. This either suggests way too many killers. Or not enough survivors. Or Both at one time.
Event queue:
Killer 2:32, survivor:6s . This suggests that whilst there could be not enough survivors, theres more ample a supply of survivors playing the event than normal mode, whilst theres still too many killers thats a drastic shift in 5 mins between the modes. That means theres a lot less killers playing the event queue than normal queue.
Every queue is showing these stats right now (was using UK numbers). Event queue has lower killer wait with low survivor wait, and normal queue has a slight survivor wait with a High killer wait.
I never argued that wasn't the case. I'm saying that even in an event mode that's supposed to be super duper survivor-sided there's a line to play killer. The role is far from unplayable, which is what people often say.
I'm playing it right now and it's a minute wait which means I'll probaly be getting off. That's not much but I usually have no wait at this time. Even a small wait in a less desirable mode shows that killer is perfectly popular.
Tunnelling is by far the most complained about strategy in this game. It's also probably the most prevalent strategy though, due to the lower risk associated with it compared to other strategies, which could be why.
Do you think bodyblocking gets comparably as much hate and demands to be changed by devs as tunneling/slugging?Just bodyblocking? Probably not. Throw in SWFs and shift-W gameplay, sure. Though its not really worth nitpicking the difference between 'complained about a lot' and 'complained about slightly more than a lot'.
I'd also add that a lot of things killers have called cheap BHVR has addressed. FTP+BU, MFT, old DH, old old DH, 80 second OTR, unhookable builds, etc. If we want to to discuss the whole history of the game on what side gets called out for having cheap tactics its going to get to be a long list on both sides.
the line to play killer is because theres more than a 1:4 ratio, it may not be unplayable, but it is incredibly survivor sided and unfun for most.
"perfectly popular"- so your saying that if 1 of 2 roles is only played by 25% of the community its "perfectly popular"? I mean thats a take you can have for sure ig.
It’s just a game tho. Your loved ones won’t fall ill if you lose. There’s really no need for a frankly rather strange othering of players who don’t care for optimisation.
Idk who this guy even is, and just because he’s a dev doesn’t mean he’s the author of the gospel. He comes across to me as rather insecure, and even a smidge delusional. He immediately assumed “we” scrubs have an agenda. It would serve him well to go out in nature and count the amount of ducks on the local pond.
I was actually embarrassed reading it. He's writing like these people are going to war when their biggest struggle is juggling their controller while trying to eat their chips and dip.
Yes and No, How long did you have most of these before they got fixed. Broken Things like COH stayed in the game for 6 months before getting touched. DS and DH both were in there for years. FTP+BU addressed instantly. The only things that took comparible length from my memory was old ruin (which was comparitively broken). Unhookable builds still exist to this day, 80s off the record took 3 years to nerf.
Now some killer examples of "incredibly broken stuff" and how long it took to nerf-
Machine learning (18 months), Eruption (from the 2022 patch when it became problematic (7 months)), Ultimate weapon (8 months), pain res (132 days/4ish months), undying (5 months).
My issue is it seems killer stuff gets hotfixed generally within a handful of months when it is seen as problematic (which is still slow, but much faster than a lot of the nerfs that happen otherwise) whilst survivors broken perks take years. The DH/DS discussions were going on since laurie strode came out essentially.
I agree with everything you said.
I get “tunneling” can be viable, and sometimes, a way to create pressure. Say a killer only has 2 hooks and 3 gens have popped, I get it. Or when survivors bring it on themselves and aggressively use endurance, Will to Live, OTR, etc to take hits. Fine.
What I don’t get is when killers are clearly higher MMR than the survivors and are stomping them but still tunnel. You have a couple survivors on death hook and only a gen or two have popped, in this instance, tunelling just feels cheap and dirty and an easy way to win.
The response I know will be “get better at the game”, “make tunelling harder for the killer”, “there are anti-tunnel perks” etc. working on that logic, the exact same thing can be said to the killer…
getting stomped by survivors and gens are popping quickly…? get better at the game. Getting gen rushed…? Run gen slow down builds. There’s literally a counter-argument to all killer excuses for hard tunnelling. Let’s not sugarcoat all instances of tunnelling as a “viable strategy” when we all know some killers do it just to be toxic(not all, I’d like to emphasise that).
one final thought on the subject of anti-tunnel perks. When tunelling killers say “there are perks to counter tunelling”, tell them there’s perks to counter “gen rushing” which is why you seem the same perks in rotation constantly (Pain Res, Oppression Ruin/Undying, etc). And yes, I know gen slow down is popular due to “gen rushing” and is essentially a bandaid fix for a core gameplay issue. However, consider why you see so many survivors run so-called “2nd chance” perks (WtL, DH, OTR, etc)… same thing.
I personally don't like farming my opinion making and thought process out to 3rd parties but since you seem to have chosen this particular individual to hold up as someone to listen to then might I suggest you listen to the points he makes in "Love of the Game: Not Playing to Win"
Too bad player x never developed broad skill at playing the game, they were off being a one trick tunnel pony because they were "playing to win". This actually demonstrates perfectly why some killers lost their freaking minds when anti-tunnel was on the table and describe Shoulder the Burden as an overpowered perk. Tunneling is literally all they know how to do because they never bothered to develop skills in any other aspect of the game. We might want to revisit the definition of "scrub".
All of this is mainly if you need some sort of sociopathic argument as to why you shouldn't rely on one trick cheeses to win your matches. Personally I just think the author wants to use whatever cheap tactics he wants but doesn't want to listen to anyone call him out on it because he's a snowflake.
The thing is, everything you pointed out does happen.
A killer doesn't like "gen-rushing", theyre laughed at and told its a skill issue, and questioned what killers theyre playing and how many hours they have.
Gen rushing specifically is laughed at in this forum. This is the worst example you could've brought up. Killers are told to bring slowdown, and also harped on for bringing the unfun builds that slow survivors down (the new hex build for example, on any killer, gets the same response (not just jason, although he is much more annoying with it).
Both are both sides playing efficiently essentially. I don't hate either of them, but I will definitely say that tunneling/slugging get a lot more weight on their claims and people band together a lot more surrounding these issues than genrushing, because gen rushing is seen as a skill issue 80% of the time.
To highlight two things I said in my own post that you quoted
Though its not really worth nitpicking the difference between 'complained about a lot' and 'complained about slightly more than a lot'.If we want to to discuss the whole history of the game on what side gets called out for having cheap tactics its going to get to be a long list on both sides.The post I was responding to set up bodyblocking vs tunneling/slugging, I'm pointing out limiting it to that is leaving out a lot.
You also say
"incredibly broken stuff"- I don't know what you are using quotes for as I didn't use that phrase, the discussion was about cheap, which is related to broken but different.Anyway, to go against my own advice on the nitpicky side, I could point to thinks like fog vials that if someone was on a short vacation they could have missed the initial version of (and this being bigger than most nerfs as it was the first new gameplay element for survivors in a long time). Additionally, on the killer side, how long facecamping was allowed to exist and, of course, that tunneling is still very much in the game so its clock is still running.
The simple fact is you have to wait in line to play killer. You can want it to be the sad, sad suffering role all you want but there aren't lines to go get punched in the face. No one is required by law to play killer. They are choosing to wait in a line to do so.
Your math is too black and white anyway. If there's a line for killer, people like me just won't wait in it. We'll play survivor or we just won't play at all, which is the option I'm currently going for. There's currently a 6/4min 1v4/event queue on my server and I'd like to play killer but I'm not willing to wait in the line.
Each hook stage is 70 seconds. when you are on hook you are stunned, can not move or do anything except hit spacebar on the second stage.
while i understand that getting eliminated early is less fun than getting eliminated later, some of the arguments people make up dont make a ton of sense.
also, you should never be down on the ground for 70 seconds. your team should be picking you up.
>cyberbullying
that got debunked a decade ago turn off dbd/monitor/computer and go touch grass if it's that big of a problem for you.
it's healthy to go take a break your taking the internet too seriously
Not that I think you can draw any conclusions from these timeframes, since we don't know when/how these issues were found, integrated, tested and released, nor how long it takes to push these fixes and their complexity. However, since a killer power/perk affects the entire match, and a survivor perk is 1 of 16, I can see why killer bugs may be prioritised.
I was using quotes there because I personally don't see a lot of stuff as incredible broken, people complain about the slightest strong items in the game. Im using it because thats what the community are defining it as, sorry if that caused a miscommunication.
I'd argue that tunneling is just the killer playing efficiently, and is the end result of the objective being kills. Thats not something thats incredibly broken, and has been nerfed multiple times (basekit bt, ds , off the record ect ect). Even old DS being a thing should highlight that nerfed.
"Your math is too black and white anyway"- Awhhh does someone not like me using logic to determine my argument. But in all realness, for the queues to be low for killer, there has to be around 20 killers to every 80 survivors. Even a slight wait could be shifted if theres 25 killers or 30 killers. The closer it gets to 50:50, the more catastrophic the queues (like the 20 minute queues when jason came out). My math is black and white because its pretty black and white. You need 4 survivors for every killer. So queue times would be incredibly long if there was 45 killer to every 80 survivors instead, sadly thats just maths. Basic at that.
You don't seem to understand the nuance at all here and I'm not sure how many different combinations of words I can use to say the same thing. I pretty much stopped playing for a couple weeks when Jason came out. There was a small window around midnight then the queue was acceptable and I i could play a few matches. Long queues simply make people not play at all if the role they want is too long. You are approaching this as though 1) everyone is a main at a role and 2) all players are always in line at all times, making the numbers an accurate reflection of where the game is at. You're not accepting that some people just play whatever queue is shorter or that some people (like me) play SWF or killer depending on other people's availability. The queue times won't tell you how popular a role is if most people play both, but they are currently telling you that enough people are willing to wait in line to play killer when they could just play survivor immediately. It is that simple. If you choose to wait in a line instead of not waiting in a line, you like the role enough to do so. I don’t know why there is such a desperate desire to make the role look like it's in a bad place when reality says otherwise.
You don't seem to understand numbers and I don't know how many different combinations of "for there to be no killer queue times there needs to be a balance of 1 killer to 4 survivors, so the role can be less popular whilst also having a queue" I need to say before you get it.
I'm not approaching this as if everyones a main. Fundementally killer role has to be less popular unless you want abysmal queue times. That is fundementally a part of dbd, as it is a 1:4 ratio needed to keep queue times running. So, even if there was 30 people playing killer out of 100, that would have a queue time on killer. AND STILL BE INCREDIBLY UNBALANCED IN POPULARITY.
"You're not accepting that some people just play whatever queue is shorter or that some people (like me) play SWF or killer depending on other people's availability."- I AM. I'm saying usually people are willing to brave the queue times for killer because they find it fun enough, but right now due to the queue times being consistently lower than their average even before jason dropped there either needs to be some hidden influx of survivors coming out of the woodwork which we've never seen before even when jason dropped which would point to people being more willing to play survivor than killer, or it means that people are less willing to play killer shortening the divide between both. Some people are willing to play whatever is a shorter queue, which will always be survivor, because the queue times for survivor are always instant, since there needs to be 4x the amount of survivors than killers for it to be balanced.
" The queue times won't tell you how popular a role is if most people play both, but they are currently telling you that enough people are willing to wait in line to play killer when they could just play survivor immediately."- The fact that theres a queue time has been a fundamental truth since the creation of the game. Killers have dealt with these queue times anyway. The fact there isn't a queue time in the event (or its incredibly small) means killers aren't waiting. There isn't anywhere near as many killers waiting for the role because they cba waiting over a minute to get into an event game. They'll wait that for the normal queue. Normal queue times are 6 mins. But they won't for the event queue. Does that not saying anything to you?
This is just not true. I check the queues in all regions multiple times a day. You didn't even seem to know Dead by Queue existed before this conversation so you probably aren't used to the wait patterns that shift by region and time of day. You seem to be only using what you've seen on your server as an example, and I don't even know how often you play, but I'm usually on almost everyday and the times are much higher than normal, and that's even with it being split between two modes. They're going to shoot back up even higher once the event is over.
Killer is the role that sells the game. It's the role the CCs all pitch. It's the role designed to win more. Most people who didn't join to play with friends probably started playing to play killer. But, once again, if you play both, you'll just play survivor if the killer queue is too long, thus keeping killer queues from being astronomically high and just moderately high. There's a reason there's an option to play survivor while waiting for killer and no vice versa option. They want to push people out of killer and towards survivor (without actually making survivor more enjoyable.) There was a time years ago when survivor had long queues. You had an argument then but those days are over.
There are waits to play killer in the event on almost all servers right now. A ten minute wait in Singapore is crazy and you're saying killers aren't playing the mode. There were no 10 minute waits 2 months ago.
That they prefer regular mode but will still wait in line for the event? Again, people don't wait in line to get punched in the face. If it was that bad they wouldn't be there at all. They'd play survivor or wait in the longer queue—or just play something else. I'm sitting at a 75-80% KR in the event and even I'm unwilling to wait for 3 minutes for my easy win.
"didnt even seem to know dead by queue existed before this conversation"- doesn't mean I cant see the literal queues.
"I don't know how often you play"- usually a game or two a day weekdays, weekends can smash out 4+ hours depending on queue times.
"There's a reason there's an option to play survivor while waiting for killer and no vice versa option. They want to push people out of killer and towards survivor (without actually making survivor more enjoyable."- BECAUSE IT REQUIRES YOU TO HAVE 4 SURVIVORS TO EVERY KILLER. THEY NEED LESS KILLERS BECAUSE EVEN HAVING ONLY 30% OF THE PLAYERBASE PLAYING KILLER WOULD BE TOO MUCH BECAUSE THEY NEED IT TO BE NEAR 20% FOR THE QUEUES TO FUNCTION. HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO REPEAT MYSELF.
"There are waits to play killer in the event on almost all servers right now. A ten minute wait in Singapore is crazy and you're saying killers aren't playing the mode. There were no 10 minute waits 2 months ago."- In singapore its 7am my dude. Thats your example? Whats their queue times look like normally? As in the normal mode?
"That they prefer regular mode but will still wait in line for the event? Again, people don't wait in line to get punched in the face. If it was that bad they wouldn't be there at all. They'd play survivor or wait in the longer queue—or just play something else. I'm sitting at a 75-80% KR in the event and even I'm unwilling to wait for 3 minutes for my easy win."- so when we had forever freddy ect it wasnt that bad because survivors were still queueing? Thrill must not be that bad because killer queue times are (in the servers that arent asleep right now/just waking up) pretty low so survivors must be queueing. Got it.
Ok so you have no idea what the queue patterns are. The visible timer was only even added during the last 2v8. So you're using a limited amount of play time on one isolated server with a very new set of in-game data to make these hard statements about the whole state of the game and the queues.
Queue weren't regularly over 5 mins until recently and even that was the extreme end. I don't know why you're so deadset on arguing this when you've clearly never monitored the times before.
And Singapore's queue time for both modes are equal right now.
Not every match is Hex Jason. I played 35-40 survivor matches the other day and I not only didn't see one hex Jason but not even a single Jason at all. Very few totem builds either.
But no, its not okay. The Jasons with hex builds are why I took a two week break from survivor, the longest I've ever taken since picking up the role. But now that it's gone down, it's bearable. Nurse is also not fine but she's also not every match. Frequency is what makes a broken thing unplayable.
I can look at a timer, I can sit there watching videos and see how long it takes. I don't need the game to tell me how long I've waited for, given I've played both roles since 2018.
"queues weren't regularly over 5 mins until recently"- They have been for easily the past year. Consistent 5 mins+ killer queues have been the norm since knight (2022) for me and everyone I've talked to irl about dbd (might just be UK servers, but you've yet to show how UK servers are some huge outlier at the other servers peak times).
Also singapore survivors have over a minute wait on the event, whilst its instant on the event, they arent the same by your standards.
"Not every match is Hex Jason. I played 35-40 survivor matches the other day and I not only didn't see one hex Jason but not even a single Jason at all. Very few totem builds either.
But no, its not okay. The Jasons with hex builds are why I took a two week break from survivor, the longest I've ever taken since picking up the role. But now that it's gone down, it's bearable. Nurse is also not fine but she's also not every match. Frequency is what makes a broken thing unplayable."- So we can finally understand that just because people are willing to queue for a role doesnt make it okay/bearable. But its only understandable for survivors, for killers it must be fine because they queue for it. Gotcha
The UK is not the world. You're limited experience on your own server guesstimating queue times is just not something I'm going to entertain. At the time I play, killer is usually instant. If I use only that extremely limited experience, I'd have 1% of the picture. You lack context.
Are you going to misconstrue everything I say? For one, survivors aren't waiting in a line. Second, I literally said I stopped playing because of it. With queues hitting 20+ minutes I proabjly wasn't the only one. Do you think survivors would play if every match was a god Nurse? If killer was consistenly terrible, and they consistently lost, they wouldn't play. Is your argument "killers occasionally lose and the role is therefore bad"?
"Are you going to misconstrue everything I say? For one, survivors aren't waiting in a line. Second, I literally said I stopped playing because of it. With queues hitting 20+ minutes I proabjly wasn't the only one. Do you think survivors would play if every match was a god Nurse? If killer was
consistenlyterrible, and theyconsistentlylost, they wouldn't play. Is your argument "killers occasionally lose and the role is therefore bad"?"- oooh this is an olympic level strawman. lets see if you can get it this time.Firstly survivor queues in singapore are 1min 47 in event rn, so by definition are waiting in a queue.
Secondly:
You said the event must be ok because killers are willing to queue for it.
I said that Hex jason must be ok because survivors are willing to queue for it.
You say thats not whats happening all the time so whilst that things not ok, It doesn't make the thing unbearable "Frequency is what makes a broken thing unplayable."
So let me lay out what the survivors can do in the event, and what killers find unfun, and then we can discuss the "frequency" of it. Unbreakable pallets, repeated teamwide heals, perma haste, invis+ portals, mini sb and resetting pallets. Now then, that seems incredibly unfun if spammed, I think we'd agree. Now the frequency:
I've had soloqueue survivors spam the tables to get heals and remove my pressure, which has massively hindered my fun on the less impactful killers in the event (essentially when im not playing my jason, legion, huntress or springtrap). This happens (effectively), in maybe 1/5 of my games. Now I can win these games depending on the killer im playing and the general skill level of the survivors (even if they use tables well, doesn't mean theyre good in a chase ect) but its still incredibly unfun winning after slogging through what have been 15 minute games sometimes. Now this stat may be different for others, but my point is it doesnt require a 4 man swf comp squad to be able to abuse this event and get the most unfun result for killers, like hex jason for survivors. It isn't every game, but its common enough that Im off the bat sweating and overall ruins my fun in the casual games because I might have to deal with table spamming. Decent survivors can pull this off in soloqueue. Thats what makes it unfun, Its not unreachable in the slightest.
The recent killer queue times stand out because they are an anomaly, not the norm. Killer was always pretty instant in the evening. There was none of this waiting 5 minutes. The time increase is because more people are wanting to play killer. That's literally all it comes down to.
Grab removal, anticamp, longer hookstates and longer bt, your idea would be the 5th one
Im saying that survivors already step in trial with 4 basekit anti-hooking perks and have another 4 slots to spare, even ds is free and shoulder obtained from not licensed character, atp adding 5th basekit perk is diabolical