That's the problem with taking these stats face value. We'd need MMR brackets for each killer's kill rate, how many times they were ran in a trial, and even then will it factor in self-hook kills when survivors give up on hooks?
Biggest flaw with the data is Freddy in my eyes. Regarded as one of the worst killers, low pick rate, yet he's got that high of a kill rate?
There are plenty of things the data is showing that show it is flawed, but there are some interesting things it shows.
First the flawed things:
Skull merchant being the best killer in the game
Nurse being one of the worst in the game.
Pig, sadako,freddy, dredge, myers being so high
Huntress, Twins, Chucky, Blight being so low
Doctor being so low despite being mid tier
Survival rates solo vs groups being way off (you can't tell me the thread topic is truly accurate)
Self-care still being one of the most popular survivor perks
Now, interesting things it shows? I have though about this for a while but look at the survivor perks that are at the top. The biggest outlier there is windows of opportunity and lithe, but what about the rest? Every other perk there is a perk that you get for free, either through one of the free survivors you start the game with, neutral perks everyone has access to, or from david who you get for doing the tutorial.
Now look at the killer perks, they are simply just using some of the best slowdown perks in the game all non-free ones.
This shows to me, that survivor players as a whole are probably more "average" players whereas killer players are more veterans because they are using the better perks while survivors are using the free perks. This actually makes sense to me, given that there are more survivors to killer players. So it stands to reason that there are more "average" survivor players than there are killer players. Leading to the stats to be skewed so heavily this way.
You can absolutely use these stats. They are the most accurate stats we have. And from what i see, the devs have the game in a pretty good spot. The ratio is just where it should be from their point of view. If we want to disagree with that and want the ratio to be somethinbg else, then thats a totally different discussion, that is very much worth taking.
We all know why the stats are the way they are. The ultra comp swf squad like Eternal doesnt even appear in public matches that often, because they mostly play in private matches.
The only thing that suprised me was Freddy being in top 5 kill rate. Guess @GeneralV was right and he is truly as strong as he says. I have to admit defeat there.
Ok then, so you believe that skull merchant is the best killer in the game, and nurse is one of the worst? And that is accurate?
The stats will never show 80% escape rate because looking at stats that way aren't ever going to show the problem.
Escape and kill rate is a horrible metric to look at because there are too many variables to look at:
Was it a SWF
Did the kills all happen at the end because the killer had NOED and they played altruisticly? I could give you examples of games where i get 1-2 hooks and the game goes horrible, but i get a 4k because they didn't expect the NOED. I wouldn't exactly consider that a "balanced match"
Did both sides play their hardest to win
Did anyone give up and hook suicide
Did the map generate a survivor sided map with 87 pallets for some reason.
The other problem is that the amount of survivors that play this game that are CAPABLE of playing at that level are extremely small. So for every match i get against a team that is literally impossible to beat unless i'm playing nurse, i'll get 10 matches with megheads that predrop shack pallet the wrong direction so i hit them anyway.
This is why looking at those types of metrics isn't really useful. This is also why i'm recording many matches right now, and doing several experiments to actually SHOW people what they aren't seeing, because data only goes so far if you can't actually see it. It's just taking a while because i don't have as much time to play DBD at the various times of day i need to get the proper stats. I should later this year though when i have some time off work.
Stats will also never show that many killers contribute to lower the KR by giving the hatch to the last survivor or that they sometimes farm from the start of the trial.
For these same reasons the KR might even be superior, according to your reasoning.
Well, I apologize to the SWF players, for believing that they are ridiculously over powered and are making Solo Q games suffer. And I apologize for my own ignorance in regards to exclusively playing Solo Q, in thinking that Solo was in a really bad state right now when clearly it's not. Really puts things into perspective. I avoided playing in SWFs for a long time because I felt that it was a huge disadvantage to the other side and felt guilty for it and now it seems that it was silly of me as I am most certainly not in the top 5% of players and even if I was there's only a very small advantage that still doesn't even get me to 50% chance of survival. My chances are around 40% regardless if I'm laughing alongside friends or not. I feel stupid lol.
Dont take stats too serious, they are taken from all players worldwide. Self care is apparently top 10 survivor perks, according to stats. Nobody should feel bad for playing anything. Its a game. You paid for it, you can play how you want. (Except for cheating).
You can absolutely use these stats. They are the most accurate stats we have. And from what i see, the devs have the game in a pretty good spot. The ratio is just where it should be from their point of view. If we want to disagree with that and want the ratio to be somethinbg else, then thats a totally different discussion, that is very much worth taking.
We all know why the stats are the way they are. The ultra comp swf squad like Eternal doesnt even appear in public matches that often, because they mostly play in private matches.
The only thing that suprised me was Freddy being in top 5 kill rate. Guess @GeneralV was right and he is truly as strong as he says. I have to admit defeat there.
I told ya, my friend, that I'd convince you he isn't the weakest killer in the game. Guess the stats did it for me, eh?
There are plenty of things the data is showing that show it is flawed, but there are some interesting things it shows.
First the flawed things:
Skull merchant being the best killer in the game
Nurse being one of the worst in the game.
Pig, sadako,freddy, dredge, myers being so high
Huntress, Twins, Chucky, Blight being so low
Doctor being so low despite being mid tier
Survival rates solo vs groups being way off (you can't tell me the thread topic is truly accurate)
Self-care still being one of the most popular survivor perks
Now, interesting things it shows? I have though about this for a while but look at the survivor perks that are at the top. The biggest outlier there is windows of opportunity and lithe, but what about the rest? Every other perk there is a perk that you get for free, either through one of the free survivors you start the game with, neutral perks everyone has access to, or from david who you get for doing the tutorial.
Now look at the killer perks, they are simply just using some of the best slowdown perks in the game all non-free ones.
This shows to me, that survivor players as a whole are probably more "average" players whereas killer players are more veterans because they are using the better perks while survivors are using the free perks. This actually makes sense to me, given that there are more survivors to killer players. So it stands to reason that there are more "average" survivor players than there are killer players. Leading to the stats to be skewed so heavily this way.
That does make a lot of sense. Newer players would probably be too intimidated to commit to killer, I know I was when I started but I persevered because Sadako was just released at the time.
Speaking of, from my experience I kinda understand her killrate during the month of January. It was still 2.0 Sadako, and survivors (assuming they're average MMR based on your conclusions) didn't understand TVs and tapes too well, or didn't like her and gave up on hook. I'm not sure of my MMR on Sadako, but I know I got more 3k-4ks than not with escapes being kinda rare and days between sessions. Funny thing is, when I'd play survivor with friends I could explain her on the fly and get my group to all escape once they understood the tapes. (Granted I also don't know our group MMR either.) I shouldn't base it on my own experience though, but at the same time I can't help but feel like I can understand her killrate. In fact, a lot of killers with an early mori mechanic make a bit of sense if we're taking data from every match all over, maybe not perfect sense since we don't know player #'s for each MMR bracket.
Her kill rate is accurate and most people know that already given the amount of dcs that factor into her kill rate and the mass amount of people who purposively lull themselves on hook.🪝
It's likely much higher when you count DC's as well
@GeneralV, I guess I need accept that I lost. You've convinced me. Freddy is not the weakest killer in the game. I guess he's still too strong. Or the 2 living Freddy mains are just too good. I choose to believe the second option.
...official stats should basically be ignored because they are useless. I will however continue to use them to point out the obvious logical fallacy they create for people who believe that the game should be balanced around average players when i point out how ridiculously OP survivors are at the highest level such that tournaments..."
Yes, survivors at the literal highest level of the game (literally like .1% of the games population) are better than killers at the highest level. What even is this argument? How many people that play this game actually care about competitive DbD? Hint, the answers very, very little. This games not designed to be played like how competitive players do and it rightfully shouldn't be, competitive games are an absolute bore to watch and look even worse to play.
"To which i now get to point to these official stats and ask where my nurse buffs are, because official stats around the "Average level" players show that nurse is one of the worst killers in the game."
Okay, lets do exactly that. What would their process be for buffing nurse's kill rate? Butchering her skill ceiling so the average player can pick her up and win with her. Is that what you'd want? Because that's how you bring killers with high skill ceilings up in kill rates.
The actual answer is A LOT of people care about competitive DBD, which is why 99% of the killer tier lists are based off of 6,000+ hour competitive players.
The actual answer is A LOT of people care about competitive DBD, which is why 99% of the killer tier lists are based off of 6,000+ hour competitive players.
Tier lists are always based off skill ceilings, doesn’t mean people care about actual competitive dbd
SWF only matters at high MMR, even Solo in high MMR is bad and the ER for 4-mans is still sub-50. The horrible awful so OP high mmr swf's aren't even escaping HALF the time
Also shows that SWF really doesn't matter unless it's all four.
Continue preaching the truth my friend regardless of all the hate replies you get. I've seen you in most threads and we agree on most things. People refuse to see that survivors are literally down in the dumps right now and they actually still think survivors need further nerfs even after these stats. Survivors NEED help, we NEED something because right now escaping is extremely rare. The only way i escape as a solo q survivor is if the killer is bad.
Even when i duo/trio queue our escape rate is slim to none. This meta has become extremely stale, having to do 7-8 generators per match only to still lose. Perks that are considered solid on the survivor side are reduced to trash the second someone finds any actual viability in it causing new survivor perks to become meme perks. Don't even get me started on every new killer BHVR has released lately has been Anti-Loop, Damned if you do, Damned if you don't killers inside chase. Looping is what makes this game fun to me and many others, and killers like Alien & Chucky just kill that for me, you can hardly counter their abilities in chase.
These are some huge issues i have as a solo/duo survivor not in any specific order of importance.
-Prestige 100 tunneling (Please hide survivor prestige's from killers).
-Generator slowdown perks making us have to do 7-8 generators per match (very low chance to even get that far).
-Regular proxy camping, tunneling (You all know what i mean).
Problem killers that in my opinion need looked at for having unhealthy aspects/playstyles.
-Skull Merchant (You know why).
-Alien (Damned if you do, Damned if you don't, just feels unhealthy for the game similar to Nurse).
-Chucky (Just reduce hit charge hitbox and further reduce the flick radius).
These are some survivor perks that i believe need some further changes by BHVR.
-Iron Will (Remove the exhaustion aspect).
-Spine Chill (As of right now, its literally garbage and i feel like they need to make it do ANYTHING else).
-Decisive Strike (Bring back 5 second stun).
-Self-Care (just something else, people who use it right now are hurting the team and themselves).
I am going to end it here, and keep in mind these are obviously just my personal opinions and i know some of you will disagree but oh well. These are legit issues with the game currently and there's nothing any of you can say to make me believe otherwise.
@GeneralV, I guess I need accept that I lost. You've convinced me. Freddy is not the weakest killer in the game. I guess he's still too strong. Or the 2 living Freddy mains are just too good. I choose to believe the second option.
:)
At no point in Freddy's history was he weak enough to be considered the worst killer in the game. Even right now, the weakest he has ever been, you can use him effectively.
The problem with Freddy is how boring he is, how the most unique killer in the game became this uninteresting mess. It is third lowest pick rate in the game, and there is a reason for that.
Yes, if they want the game for the average Survivor to be unpleasant, they are doing a bang-up job of that.
Well the "average survivor" is garbage skill wise. That's why killers like Sadako and Pinhead, are at the top of the kill rates despite us knowing they're bad. But they prey on survivors being bad.
Getting them to a 50% escape rate would be horrible for balance once you have players who actually have some braincells in the match.
I don't think we should balance around players who die to Sadako because they don't know how she works and lose to Pig and Dredge a ton.
Not to mention the large amount of self sacrifice currently in the game being counted as kills and causing more collateral kills as well. So the kill rates are probably inflated a fair amount i.e. Dull Merchant.
At no point in Freddy's history was he weak enough to be considered the worst killer in the game. Even right now, the weakest he has ever been, you can use him effectively.
The problem with Freddy is how boring he is, how the most unique killer in the game became this uninteresting mess. It is third lowest pick rate in the game, and there is a reason for that.
Sadly there is...
Fret not, I just played two games of Freddy to get in the mood.
Continue preaching the truth my friend regardless of all the hate replies you get. I've seen you in most threads and we agree on most things. People refuse to see that survivors are literally down in the dumps right now and they actually still think survivors need further nerfs even after these stats. Survivors NEED help, we NEED something because right now escaping is extremely rare. The only way i escape as a solo q survivor is if the killer is bad.
Even when i duo/trio queue our escape rate is slim to none. This meta has become extremely stale, having to do 7-8 generators per match only to still lose. Perks that are considered solid on the survivor side are reduced to trash the second someone finds any actual viability in it causing new survivor perks to become meme perks. Don't even get me started on every new killer BHVR has released lately has been Anti-Loop, Damned if you do, Damned if you don't killers inside chase. Looping is what makes this game fun to me and many others, and killers like Alien & Chucky just kill that for me, you can hardly counter their abilities in chase.
These are some huge issues i have as a solo/duo survivor not in any specific order of importance.
-Prestige 100 tunneling (Please hide survivor prestige's from killers).
-Generator slowdown perks making us have to do 7-8 generators per match (very low chance to even get that far).
-Regular proxy camping, tunneling (You all know what i mean).
Problem killers that in my opinion need looked at for having unhealthy aspects/playstyles.
-Skull Merchant (You know why).
-Alien (Damned if you do, Damned if you don't, just feels unhealthy for the game similar to Nurse).
-Chucky (Just reduce hit charge hitbox and further reduce the flick radius).
These are some survivor perks that i believe need some further changes by BHVR.
-Iron Will (Remove the exhaustion aspect).
-Spine Chill (As of right now, its literally garbage and i feel like they need to make it do ANYTHING else).
-Decisive Strike (Bring back 5 second stun).
-Self-Care (just something else, people who use it right now are hurting the team and themselves).
I am going to end it here, and keep in mind these are obviously just my personal opinions and i know some of you will disagree but oh well. These are legit issues with the game currently and there's nothing any of you can say to make me believe otherwise.
Sooooo.....
All 3 over Blight and Nurse? How many Xenos do you see? I'm genuinely curious?
What changes would you propose for Skull merchant and Xeno?
All 3 over Blight and Nurse? How many Xenos do you see? I'm genuinely curious?
What changes would you propose for Skull merchant and Xeno?
Blight and Nurse are also problematic don't get me wrong, but Xeno is actually more miserable to play against in my opinion. Id say i play against probably 2-3 Aliens per session and the rest are Blight, Chucky, Wesker. I would rather play against blights all day then play against Chucky or Xeno EVER. Their kits are just extremely annoying, and i typically just die go next after about 2 or 3 in.
Skull merchant is just a killer they should completely rework from the ground up or just delete her altogether idc.
Continue preaching the truth my friend regardless of all the hate replies you get. I've seen you in most threads and we agree on most things. People refuse to see that survivors are literally down in the dumps right now and they actually still think survivors need further nerfs even after these stats. Survivors NEED help, we NEED something because right now escaping is extremely rare. The only way i escape as a solo q survivor is if the killer is bad.
Even when i duo/trio queue our escape rate is slim to none. This meta has become extremely stale, having to do 7-8 generators per match only to still lose. Perks that are considered solid on the survivor side are reduced to trash the second someone finds any actual viability in it causing new survivor perks to become meme perks. Don't even get me started on every new killer BHVR has released lately has been Anti-Loop, Damned if you do, Damned if you don't killers inside chase. Looping is what makes this game fun to me and many others, and killers like Alien & Chucky just kill that for me, you can hardly counter their abilities in chase.
These are some huge issues i have as a solo/duo survivor not in any specific order of importance.
-Prestige 100 tunneling (Please hide survivor prestige's from killers).
-Generator slowdown perks making us have to do 7-8 generators per match (very low chance to even get that far).
-Regular proxy camping, tunneling (You all know what i mean).
Problem killers that in my opinion need looked at for having unhealthy aspects/playstyles.
-Skull Merchant (You know why).
-Alien (Damned if you do, Damned if you don't, just feels unhealthy for the game similar to Nurse).
-Chucky (Just reduce hit charge hitbox and further reduce the flick radius).
These are some survivor perks that i believe need some further changes by BHVR.
-Iron Will (Remove the exhaustion aspect).
-Spine Chill (As of right now, its literally garbage and i feel like they need to make it do ANYTHING else).
-Decisive Strike (Bring back 5 second stun).
-Self-Care (just something else, people who use it right now are hurting the team and themselves).
I am going to end it here, and keep in mind these are obviously just my personal opinions and i know some of you will disagree but oh well. These are legit issues with the game currently and there's nothing any of you can say to make me believe otherwise.
I think having some pure anti-loop Killers is fine, but having the bloat that we have isn't. You could play against Knight, SM, Alien, Chucky, Nemesis, (most) Artist, etc etc and all have the same gameplay loop. If they get there power on a loop, you die or hold W.
I think the vast majority of Survivor perks aren't worth running and need changes; that's also true for the Killer side.
Prestige should be hidden, nobody really seems to disagree.
I do think that there should be an objective after gens but before gates; after we get rid of tunneling. I do think it absolutely sucks to repair 7 or 8 gens worth of progress and it also sucks having them fly without gen regression.
Proxy'ing and tunneling are issues, one much larger than the other.
50/50 preferably. If it's over a little either way that's fine.
You have to remember that Hatch is bloating escape rates, people ses 40% and think, "Wow, they're getting out through the Gate" when a significant portion are not.
Also, DC's likely increase the kill rates a lot as well. Maybe not important for balance, but important to understand the average players experience
50/50 preferably. If it's over a little either way that's fine.
You have to remember that Hatch is bloating escape rates, people ses 40% and think, "Wow, they're getting out through the Gate" when a significant portion are not.
Also, DC's likely increase the kill rates a lot as well. Maybe not important for balance, but important to understand the average players experience
Likewise to the hatch, a lot of bonus kills are made during EGC by altruistc survivors, or by the killer being forced to camp.
If survivors have powered the exits, but a killer secures one kill by camping through all three hookstages during EGC, is that a fair kill? Seems the equivalent to a hatch escape to me.
Likewise to the hatch, a lot of bonus kills are made during EGC by altruistc survivors, or by the killer being forced to camp.
If survivors have powered the exits, but a killer secures one kill by camping through all three hookstages during EGC, is that a fair kill? Seems the equivalent to a hatch escape to me.
It is.
I just don't think the frequency is the same. I don't think it's a stretch to say a Survivor gets out during a one man EGC more than a Killer manages a Kill.
Could be due to bad Gate spawns, lucky Hatch spawn etc etc
There have been many, many, many posts over the last months that stated solo queue was so horrible and that they pretty much never escape. This clearly shows, that this is wrong. Does that mean that every solo queue game is super fun? No.
But if you're not having fun in a majority of your games, then why do you still play?
I have honestly never heard someone say that I "abused" statistics (is that even a thing?) before. You do know that we have SBMM in this game, right? Now consider again what you just said. If you were to die significantly more than 60% of the time, your MMR would drop in response and put you against players that are more your skill. Meaning, your games would become easier and your escape rate would balance out again. The same would happen, if you were to escape significantly more. The only regions where it would make sense for this not to work are the very extremes.
Highest high MMR and lowest low MMR can have some players with different escape rates because they can't go anywhere from there. If you're at the very bottom, then you literally can't decrease your MMR anymore. I didn't think it was necessary to explain this. But SBMM does not allow for the very extremes to happen for most players.
This of course does not mean that out of 10 games you will definitely escape 4. This is not how statistics work. But with a large sample size, the average escape rate in your games will come close to 40%.
I can only speak for myself but most solo queue games are fine. It's more the ones with me solo and 3 people in a SWF that go south quickly (though that is probably just unlucky). You'll win some and you lose some but you can still have fun. Most complaints about solo queue come down to: "Killer too strong, we all die every time." But this data clearly shows that this is not the case (at least not for the vast majority of players). That's what I said before. This is not abusing statistics but looking at the actual numbers and considering the large sample size as well as the influence of matchmaking.
a 40% ranking does not mean solo queue is "fine" for the vast majority of players. 40% escape rate isn't a majority of games, and it without a doubt does not happen to every player, obviously, because of the large sample size. this is you abusing statistics. you are blatantly looking at a number, and then openly lying about what it says in order to prove a point.
Is 40% a small number for escapes? dear god no. but it doesn't mean that solo queue OVERALL is fine for a majority of people. you're stretching the percentage and using it to suit your personal narrative that you already came to before seeing the percentage. THAT'S what I'm calling out. You already believed solo queue was overly complained about before the stats came out, and are using this 40% to justify your personal narrative you already thought.
that is abusing a statistic. you cannot just use a number and make it say whatever you want. it's not how statistics work. you are openly using it as a "people cannot have a long streak of unfun matches and if you do you clearly must hate dbd and should quit" sign, when you should know that's not what the 40% rating means. what you're saying is blissfully confused at best, malicious at worst.
That does make a lot of sense. Newer players would probably be too intimidated to commit to killer, I know I was when I started but I persevered because Sadako was just released at the time.
Speaking of, from my experience I kinda understand her killrate during the month of January. It was still 2.0 Sadako, and survivors (assuming they're average MMR based on your conclusions) didn't understand TVs and tapes too well, or didn't like her and gave up on hook. I'm not sure of my MMR on Sadako, but I know I got more 3k-4ks than not with escapes being kinda rare and days between sessions. Funny thing is, when I'd play survivor with friends I could explain her on the fly and get my group to all escape once they understood the tapes. (Granted I also don't know our group MMR either.) I shouldn't base it on my own experience though, but at the same time I can't help but feel like I can understand her killrate. In fact, a lot of killers with an early mori mechanic make a bit of sense if we're taking data from every match all over, maybe not perfect sense since we don't know player #'s for each MMR bracket.
Sadako is a noob stomper. Any of the killers whose power does something complicated always has high kill rates because people don't understand it.
So sadako. Pig. Pinhead. Freddy.
These killers all have powers that make you interact with the map in some way and new players don't get it.
Clearly, this means we don’t need anymore solo q buffs, because BHVR already did a good job at bridging the gap between solo q and SWF.
Clearly, this means that is someone says “solo q is miserable”, that we can remind them solo q and SWFs have extremely similar escape rates, so solo q really isn’t bad at all.
Clearly, this means we don’t need anymore solo q buffs, because BHVR already did a good job at bridging the gap between solo q and SWF.
Clearly, this means that is someone says “solo q is miserable”, that we can remind them solo q and SWFs have extremely similar escape rates, so solo q really isn’t bad at all.
More realistically, we can focus on the fact that it's quality of solo queue gameplay that sucks, not strength.
I think it is worth noting that 2 swf has a lower survival rate than solo q and has identical survival rates at average and high mmr. Also noteworthy is that 2 player swf is the most commonly played version of swf. It is only at high mmr 4 player swf that the survival rate is substantially higher (and even then below 50%). The only logical conclusion is that SWF is not the problem that the forums would have you believe.
A nearly 10% gap between 4 stack and the rest is a big problem.
Why couldn’t they apply a debuff of some kind to a 4 stack?
Because bhvr wants more people playing their game, not less. Nerfing or removing swf would just turn people away from the game. From a business perspective it makes 0 sense to do that
Between solo and 4 stack? My reading of this is that solo q is in line with what the devs want, while 4 stacks break the balance.
Yes, solo's overall escape rate is 40.34%, and the overall escape rate of survivors in a 4-man stack is 43.09%. Give or take less than a percentage point, that's a 3% gap.
I'd say that's pretty well within margin of error, in terms of raw escape rate a survivor isn't that much better off for being in a SWF. That doesn't mean the experience of a solo queue player can't be improved, of course, but that's besides the point.
Because bhvr wants more people playing their game, not less. Nerfing or removing swf would just turn people away from the game. From a business perspective it makes 0 sense to do that
People would still play. The vast majority of people who say they are quitting are full of it. If all they care about is chilling with friends, they shouldn’t mind losing a little more.
a 40% ranking does not mean solo queue is "fine" for the vast majority of players. 40% escape rate isn't a majority of games, and it without a doubt does not happen to every player, obviously, because of the large sample size. this is you abusing statistics. you are blatantly looking at a number, and then openly lying about what it says in order to prove a point.
Is 40% a small number for escapes? dear god no. but it doesn't mean that solo queue OVERALL is fine for a majority of people. you're stretching the percentage and using it to suit your personal narrative that you already came to before seeing the percentage. THAT'S what I'm calling out. You already believed solo queue was overly complained about before the stats came out, and are using this 40% to justify your personal narrative you already thought.
that is abusing a statistic. you cannot just use a number and make it say whatever you want. it's not how statistics work. you are openly using it as a "people cannot have a long streak of unfun matches and if you do you clearly must hate dbd and should quit" sign, when you should know that's not what the 40% rating means. what you're saying is blissfully confused at best, malicious at worst.
40% is exactly what the devs want. So it's completely balanced in that regard. You're trying to shift the goal post here.
Survivors are not meant to survive a majority of games. Think about it: This would imply an escape rate >50%. Which means a kill rate of <50%. So then killers would lose a majority of their games. Which would bring us back to your argument with the roles reversed.
The reason why a 50% kill rate (what some people consider optimal) is too low is fairly simple. The devs want killers to be the power role. It is supposed to be an uphill battle for survivors. You can critizise that all you like but it's a simple fact. One that actually makes sense for multiple reasons.
On one hand, killer is the more stressful role (you're constantly in action with little to no down time) as opposed to survivors, who can relax as long as they are outside of chase. So it needs to feel rewarding for a killer to play. Otherwise, why would you play killer at all? On the other hand, it's a 4v1 game. A 50-50 is not only hard to achieve but arguably unhealthy. As long as the killer doesn't feel significantly stronger to the survivors as well, then nothing will stop them from going out of their way to bully the killer. This is amplified further by the survivors experiencing strength in numbers. I could list a few more reasons but really it doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day, the devs decide whether or not the game is 'balanced'. We can complain all we like but it doesn't change that fact.
I judge solo queue under consideration of the escape rate. If we consider 40% as balanced, then solo queue is fine in that regard. Apart from that my solo queue games mostly don't feel as bad as some people claim. And they claim this for solo queue in general. Is solo queue always great? Of course not. There are things outside your control that heavily determine your chances to survive. You could be the best player in the world and still lose to a beginner killer. Because at the end of the day, a survivor cannot win a 1v1 against the killer (which is necessary). If your team mates are terrible and all die immediately, then you won't be able to do much either. But for the most part all 4 survivors in the game are somewhere around the same skill level. So solo queue is fine even that regard. Again, as bad as the MMR may be, it still prevents the worst from happening (apart from lobby dodging).
I don't think saying that solo queue is not as bad as some people want us to believe is a "personal narrative". Considering that many claim, that the game is completely unbalanced for solo queue and that they always lose with no chance, the escape rates did in fact confirm my claim. That was what I said before in case you still don't understand.
That last part is a completely wrong assumption. I said before that you cannot take a small sample size and expect a 40% escape rate. That is not how statistics work indeed. But the law of large numbers says that with a high sample size (sample size -> infinity) your results will come close to the expected values. You can have a streak of bad games of course. This streak could even be "long" (it depends on your definition of long). But overall your results will balance out. MMR only makes this happen sooner.
I suggest you read thoroughly before you make these accusations. You also misinterpreted (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt her) what I said about having fun. If you are not having fun in the majority of your games (not just 5 in a row or whatever arbitrary low number you wish to place here), then the best thing you can do is not play. At least for a while. Sometimes we all think we would like to play some games of DBD but then none of them feel fun. When something like that occurs, it's best to stop playing for a while. Until you can enjoy the game again.
I'll do us both a favor and stop this conversation here. We can agree to disagree but let me make myself clear, I know exactly how statistics work and I suggest you stop making baseless claims here. Especially when it's clear, that you ignored parts of what I said for your own "personal narrative".
What you just said applies to killer, though. Playing against a 4 man SWF absolutely makes killer feel like a chore/community service.
that can really be applied to killers as well. Yet you dont see me asking them to nerfed to where the game is miserable for them. Actually make reasonable suggestions like nerfing toolboxes or asking for a basekit corrupt intervention. Bvhr is never gonna nerf swf because they want more players playing their game. So its not a good suggestion anyway.
Wasn’t it you complaining about MMR preventing you from learning Hillbilly? Sorry, I’m sure you made that salt thread because you were loving your experience so much.
I did, indeed.
You don't know when you are playing against a 4-man. Also, some of us enjoy being challenged (on Killers we are confident on 😅)
Either way, a 9% difference isn't that significant, and less than it used to be (15%). This just goes to show that SWF aren't as huge of a problem as some like to make out they are.
The difference between the absolute most used killer and the rarest, least used one is 6%.
The difference between the absolute highest kill rate and the lowest kill rate killer is 15%, and the only thing below that is Doctor with a 19% difference because he's plagued with AFK bots.
10% is alot. It means in 1000 matches, roughly 100 more people escape if they are full SWFs than if they are solos. (It's not quite that cut and dried, but that is the general idea)
EDIT: 400 more people. Don't do maths before bed, kids. There's a point you don't even remember what you're calculating anymore.
Experience has taught me that those matches are a waste of time, unless I’m playing a top tier. If the group knows what they’re doing, most killers have no chance.
Are you good at Killer? I assume you must be, since you played in comp.
I dabbled in the comp scene for a bit. Did Community Cups, scrim nights etc etc.
Even on low-tiers, I'm winning the vast majority of my games. Hell, I beat an actual comp team as Wraith of all people. Wraith isn't bad, but I'd hesitate to call him high-tier.
As a former comp player, you aren't meeting people with your skill level or background consistently. You should be winning consistently, even against four man's. If I'm winning consistently, and you have more experience than me, you should be too
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There are plenty of things the data is showing that show it is flawed, but there are some interesting things it shows.
First the flawed things:
Now, interesting things it shows? I have though about this for a while but look at the survivor perks that are at the top. The biggest outlier there is windows of opportunity and lithe, but what about the rest? Every other perk there is a perk that you get for free, either through one of the free survivors you start the game with, neutral perks everyone has access to, or from david who you get for doing the tutorial.
Now look at the killer perks, they are simply just using some of the best slowdown perks in the game all non-free ones.
This shows to me, that survivor players as a whole are probably more "average" players whereas killer players are more veterans because they are using the better perks while survivors are using the free perks. This actually makes sense to me, given that there are more survivors to killer players. So it stands to reason that there are more "average" survivor players than there are killer players. Leading to the stats to be skewed so heavily this way.
Ok then, so you believe that skull merchant is the best killer in the game, and nurse is one of the worst? And that is accurate?
Stats will also never show that many killers contribute to lower the KR by giving the hatch to the last survivor or that they sometimes farm from the start of the trial.
For these same reasons the KR might even be superior, according to your reasoning.
Dont take stats too serious, they are taken from all players worldwide. Self care is apparently top 10 survivor perks, according to stats. Nobody should feel bad for playing anything. Its a game. You paid for it, you can play how you want. (Except for cheating).
When did i say that?
I told ya, my friend, that I'd convince you he isn't the weakest killer in the game. Guess the stats did it for me, eh?
That does make a lot of sense. Newer players would probably be too intimidated to commit to killer, I know I was when I started but I persevered because Sadako was just released at the time.
Speaking of, from my experience I kinda understand her killrate during the month of January. It was still 2.0 Sadako, and survivors (assuming they're average MMR based on your conclusions) didn't understand TVs and tapes too well, or didn't like her and gave up on hook. I'm not sure of my MMR on Sadako, but I know I got more 3k-4ks than not with escapes being kinda rare and days between sessions. Funny thing is, when I'd play survivor with friends I could explain her on the fly and get my group to all escape once they understood the tapes. (Granted I also don't know our group MMR either.) I shouldn't base it on my own experience though, but at the same time I can't help but feel like I can understand her killrate. In fact, a lot of killers with an early mori mechanic make a bit of sense if we're taking data from every match all over, maybe not perfect sense since we don't know player #'s for each MMR bracket.
Sure did. I'm on board now.
Yes, if they want the game for the average Survivor to be unpleasant, they are doing a bang-up job of that.
It's likely much higher when you count DC's as well
@GeneralV, I guess I need accept that I lost. You've convinced me. Freddy is not the weakest killer in the game. I guess he's still too strong. Or the 2 living Freddy mains are just too good. I choose to believe the second option.
The actual answer is A LOT of people care about competitive DBD, which is why 99% of the killer tier lists are based off of 6,000+ hour competitive players.
Tier lists are always based off skill ceilings, doesn’t mean people care about actual competitive dbd
Continue preaching the truth my friend regardless of all the hate replies you get. I've seen you in most threads and we agree on most things. People refuse to see that survivors are literally down in the dumps right now and they actually still think survivors need further nerfs even after these stats. Survivors NEED help, we NEED something because right now escaping is extremely rare. The only way i escape as a solo q survivor is if the killer is bad.
Even when i duo/trio queue our escape rate is slim to none. This meta has become extremely stale, having to do 7-8 generators per match only to still lose. Perks that are considered solid on the survivor side are reduced to trash the second someone finds any actual viability in it causing new survivor perks to become meme perks. Don't even get me started on every new killer BHVR has released lately has been Anti-Loop, Damned if you do, Damned if you don't killers inside chase. Looping is what makes this game fun to me and many others, and killers like Alien & Chucky just kill that for me, you can hardly counter their abilities in chase.
These are some huge issues i have as a solo/duo survivor not in any specific order of importance.
-Prestige 100 tunneling (Please hide survivor prestige's from killers).
-Generator slowdown perks making us have to do 7-8 generators per match (very low chance to even get that far).
-Regular proxy camping, tunneling (You all know what i mean).
Problem killers that in my opinion need looked at for having unhealthy aspects/playstyles.
-Skull Merchant (You know why).
-Alien (Damned if you do, Damned if you don't, just feels unhealthy for the game similar to Nurse).
-Chucky (Just reduce hit charge hitbox and further reduce the flick radius).
These are some survivor perks that i believe need some further changes by BHVR.
-Iron Will (Remove the exhaustion aspect).
-Spine Chill (As of right now, its literally garbage and i feel like they need to make it do ANYTHING else).
-Decisive Strike (Bring back 5 second stun).
-Self-Care (just something else, people who use it right now are hurting the team and themselves).
I am going to end it here, and keep in mind these are obviously just my personal opinions and i know some of you will disagree but oh well. These are legit issues with the game currently and there's nothing any of you can say to make me believe otherwise.
:)
At no point in Freddy's history was he weak enough to be considered the worst killer in the game. Even right now, the weakest he has ever been, you can use him effectively.
The problem with Freddy is how boring he is, how the most unique killer in the game became this uninteresting mess. It is third lowest pick rate in the game, and there is a reason for that.
Well the "average survivor" is garbage skill wise. That's why killers like Sadako and Pinhead, are at the top of the kill rates despite us knowing they're bad. But they prey on survivors being bad.
Getting them to a 50% escape rate would be horrible for balance once you have players who actually have some braincells in the match.
I don't think we should balance around players who die to Sadako because they don't know how she works and lose to Pig and Dredge a ton.
Not to mention the large amount of self sacrifice currently in the game being counted as kills and causing more collateral kills as well. So the kill rates are probably inflated a fair amount i.e. Dull Merchant.
What ratio would you propose?
Sadly there is...
Fret not, I just played two games of Freddy to get in the mood.
Sooooo.....
All 3 over Blight and Nurse? How many Xenos do you see? I'm genuinely curious?
What changes would you propose for Skull merchant and Xeno?
Blight and Nurse are also problematic don't get me wrong, but Xeno is actually more miserable to play against in my opinion. Id say i play against probably 2-3 Aliens per session and the rest are Blight, Chucky, Wesker. I would rather play against blights all day then play against Chucky or Xeno EVER. Their kits are just extremely annoying, and i typically just die go next after about 2 or 3 in.
Skull merchant is just a killer they should completely rework from the ground up or just delete her altogether idc.
I think having some pure anti-loop Killers is fine, but having the bloat that we have isn't. You could play against Knight, SM, Alien, Chucky, Nemesis, (most) Artist, etc etc and all have the same gameplay loop. If they get there power on a loop, you die or hold W.
I think the vast majority of Survivor perks aren't worth running and need changes; that's also true for the Killer side.
Prestige should be hidden, nobody really seems to disagree.
I do think that there should be an objective after gens but before gates; after we get rid of tunneling. I do think it absolutely sucks to repair 7 or 8 gens worth of progress and it also sucks having them fly without gen regression.
Proxy'ing and tunneling are issues, one much larger than the other.
50/50 preferably. If it's over a little either way that's fine.
You have to remember that Hatch is bloating escape rates, people ses 40% and think, "Wow, they're getting out through the Gate" when a significant portion are not.
Also, DC's likely increase the kill rates a lot as well. Maybe not important for balance, but important to understand the average players experience
The disconnects are already calculated in the 70% according to the developers.
Likewise to the hatch, a lot of bonus kills are made during EGC by altruistc survivors, or by the killer being forced to camp.
If survivors have powered the exits, but a killer secures one kill by camping through all three hookstages during EGC, is that a fair kill? Seems the equivalent to a hatch escape to me.
Where?
Did they not say it was WITHOUT DC's?
Yes, they did say without DC's.
It is.
I just don't think the frequency is the same. I don't think it's a stretch to say a Survivor gets out during a one man EGC more than a Killer manages a Kill.
Could be due to bad Gate spawns, lucky Hatch spawn etc etc
Oh, thank you for showing me this! I was certain in the past that disconnects were included. It makes sense that they are not.
a 40% ranking does not mean solo queue is "fine" for the vast majority of players. 40% escape rate isn't a majority of games, and it without a doubt does not happen to every player, obviously, because of the large sample size. this is you abusing statistics. you are blatantly looking at a number, and then openly lying about what it says in order to prove a point.
Is 40% a small number for escapes? dear god no. but it doesn't mean that solo queue OVERALL is fine for a majority of people. you're stretching the percentage and using it to suit your personal narrative that you already came to before seeing the percentage. THAT'S what I'm calling out. You already believed solo queue was overly complained about before the stats came out, and are using this 40% to justify your personal narrative you already thought.
that is abusing a statistic. you cannot just use a number and make it say whatever you want. it's not how statistics work. you are openly using it as a "people cannot have a long streak of unfun matches and if you do you clearly must hate dbd and should quit" sign, when you should know that's not what the 40% rating means. what you're saying is blissfully confused at best, malicious at worst.
Sadako is a noob stomper. Any of the killers whose power does something complicated always has high kill rates because people don't understand it.
So sadako. Pig. Pinhead. Freddy.
These killers all have powers that make you interact with the map in some way and new players don't get it.
What i read from this: Survivor escape rate is very low across the board, but even lower for solo players.
Clearly, this means we don’t need anymore solo q buffs, because BHVR already did a good job at bridging the gap between solo q and SWF.
Clearly, this means that is someone says “solo q is miserable”, that we can remind them solo q and SWFs have extremely similar escape rates, so solo q really isn’t bad at all.
More realistically, we can focus on the fact that it's quality of solo queue gameplay that sucks, not strength.
Why couldn’t they apply a debuff of some kind to a 4 stack?
A nearly 10% gap between 4 stack and the rest is a big problem.
It's a 3% gap.
Between solo and 4 stack? My reading of this is that solo q is in line with what the devs want, while 4 stacks break the balance.
"We just wanna play with our friends"
It doesn't matter what you WOULD do with Discord + SWF, it's what you COULD do that matters, and what you CAN do with it is overpowered.
There is no difference between solo-q and swf on low mmr. That is why you got those numbers.
Because bhvr wants more people playing their game, not less. Nerfing or removing swf would just turn people away from the game. From a business perspective it makes 0 sense to do that
Yes, solo's overall escape rate is 40.34%, and the overall escape rate of survivors in a 4-man stack is 43.09%. Give or take less than a percentage point, that's a 3% gap.
I'd say that's pretty well within margin of error, in terms of raw escape rate a survivor isn't that much better off for being in a SWF. That doesn't mean the experience of a solo queue player can't be improved, of course, but that's besides the point.
People would still play. The vast majority of people who say they are quitting are full of it. If all they care about is chilling with friends, they shouldn’t mind losing a little more.
40% is exactly what the devs want. So it's completely balanced in that regard. You're trying to shift the goal post here.
Survivors are not meant to survive a majority of games. Think about it: This would imply an escape rate >50%. Which means a kill rate of <50%. So then killers would lose a majority of their games. Which would bring us back to your argument with the roles reversed.
The reason why a 50% kill rate (what some people consider optimal) is too low is fairly simple. The devs want killers to be the power role. It is supposed to be an uphill battle for survivors. You can critizise that all you like but it's a simple fact. One that actually makes sense for multiple reasons.
On one hand, killer is the more stressful role (you're constantly in action with little to no down time) as opposed to survivors, who can relax as long as they are outside of chase. So it needs to feel rewarding for a killer to play. Otherwise, why would you play killer at all? On the other hand, it's a 4v1 game. A 50-50 is not only hard to achieve but arguably unhealthy. As long as the killer doesn't feel significantly stronger to the survivors as well, then nothing will stop them from going out of their way to bully the killer. This is amplified further by the survivors experiencing strength in numbers. I could list a few more reasons but really it doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day, the devs decide whether or not the game is 'balanced'. We can complain all we like but it doesn't change that fact.
I judge solo queue under consideration of the escape rate. If we consider 40% as balanced, then solo queue is fine in that regard. Apart from that my solo queue games mostly don't feel as bad as some people claim. And they claim this for solo queue in general. Is solo queue always great? Of course not. There are things outside your control that heavily determine your chances to survive. You could be the best player in the world and still lose to a beginner killer. Because at the end of the day, a survivor cannot win a 1v1 against the killer (which is necessary). If your team mates are terrible and all die immediately, then you won't be able to do much either. But for the most part all 4 survivors in the game are somewhere around the same skill level. So solo queue is fine even that regard. Again, as bad as the MMR may be, it still prevents the worst from happening (apart from lobby dodging).
I don't think saying that solo queue is not as bad as some people want us to believe is a "personal narrative". Considering that many claim, that the game is completely unbalanced for solo queue and that they always lose with no chance, the escape rates did in fact confirm my claim. That was what I said before in case you still don't understand.
That last part is a completely wrong assumption. I said before that you cannot take a small sample size and expect a 40% escape rate. That is not how statistics work indeed. But the law of large numbers says that with a high sample size (sample size -> infinity) your results will come close to the expected values. You can have a streak of bad games of course. This streak could even be "long" (it depends on your definition of long). But overall your results will balance out. MMR only makes this happen sooner.
I suggest you read thoroughly before you make these accusations. You also misinterpreted (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt her) what I said about having fun. If you are not having fun in the majority of your games (not just 5 in a row or whatever arbitrary low number you wish to place here), then the best thing you can do is not play. At least for a while. Sometimes we all think we would like to play some games of DBD but then none of them feel fun. When something like that occurs, it's best to stop playing for a while. Until you can enjoy the game again.
I'll do us both a favor and stop this conversation here. We can agree to disagree but let me make myself clear, I know exactly how statistics work and I suggest you stop making baseless claims here. Especially when it's clear, that you ignored parts of what I said for your own "personal narrative".
So stop complaining about Solo Q being so hard. Pretty much same escape rate as a full SWF
You can't even know whenever you are playing against a 4 man SWF.
But it's easier for you to accuse survivors to be part of a gaming group instead of taking your responsibility for you losses, isn't it?
that can really be applied to killers as well. Yet you dont see me asking them to nerfed to where the game is miserable for them. Actually make reasonable suggestions like nerfing toolboxes or asking for a basekit corrupt intervention. Bvhr is never gonna nerf swf because they want more players playing their game. So its not a good suggestion anyway.
It’s pretty easy to tell by checking their Steam profile/friends list. Plus you can tell if the group has coordination or not
I did, indeed.
You don't know when you are playing against a 4-man. Also, some of us enjoy being challenged (on Killers we are confident on 😅)
The difference between the absolute most used killer and the rarest, least used one is 6%.
The difference between the absolute highest kill rate and the lowest kill rate killer is 15%, and the only thing below that is Doctor with a 19% difference because he's plagued with AFK bots.
10% is a lot. It means in 1000 matches, roughly 100 more people escape if they are full SWFs than if they are solos. (It's not quite that cut and dried, but that is the general idea)
EDIT: 400 more people. Don't do maths before bed, kids. There's a point you don't even remember what you're calculating anymore.
Are you good at Killer? I assume you must be, since you played in comp.
I dabbled in the comp scene for a bit. Did Community Cups, scrim nights etc etc.
Even on low-tiers, I'm winning the vast majority of my games. Hell, I beat an actual comp team as Wraith of all people. Wraith isn't bad, but I'd hesitate to call him high-tier.
As a former comp player, you aren't meeting people with your skill level or background consistently. You should be winning consistently, even against four man's. If I'm winning consistently, and you have more experience than me, you should be too