Hot take. Sloppy Butcher slaughters soloq atm
i tried running boon COH. what happens i have to go in the boon range crouch and spin/dance and hope someone comes to heal me and that we wont get intterupted. ( cometims totems are hard to find too, especially one that isnt easy for killer to destroy)
i tried running medkits but without the insta heal syrenge. there is no point one heal at max unless i dedicate my build. and IT SUCKS WHEN I GET INTERUPTED by fast mobility killer or WRAITH.... then medkit is useless
i tried running selfcare and botany knowledge. so far the best way to heal consistently in a match but i sacrifice 2 perks for it
Makes it easy to get tunneled off hook since getting a heal fast enough before killer finds you with ultimate weapon or just fast mobility ( WRAITH..) is almost impossibly slow.
This perk make some killer viable and some impossible strong to play against in soloq ( spirit...)
Your thoughts ?
Comments
if a survivor is selfcaring against sloppy butcher they would spend almost 2 thirds of a generator worth of time on 1 single heal that can get interrupted at anytime.
Honestly the more and more i hear the people thoughts on the matter. we lean toward hemorrhage being too fast to lose charges and healing is already slow no need to slow it down further when you need to worry about gen regressing hooks tomes challenges ect....
Those things are only present if you have zero tools to help out there, and even then, it's really not that big of a deal. There is a risk that the killer will find you while injured, sure, but that's something you can do your best to avoid or deal with via looping when it happens.
But if you have, say, Empathy and Botany Knowledge, you completely counteract Sloppy Butcher and get good team tracking. If Sloppy isn't in play, you save even more time and get even more benefit. You don't need to bring these specific tools, but something to keep track of your teammates and something that speeds up heals are just good ideas to have in general. If your concern is that you don't want to be pushed into the meta, even better: Here's your alternative. No healing perks and no teammate info perks are meta (save maybe Kindred), so you've got a lot of strong off-meta options here.
i know i might not seem like it . but ive done alot of that i run after care botany and selfcare. but there is only so much of running these perks to counter sloppy a person can stomach. it is honestly too strong for little effort.
not to mention all the value i would miss on from not running other perks than just healing ones. but i see where you coming from although i still think its overturned and needs a tweak
I'm not talking about Botany/Self-Care, just Botany. Don't try and heal yourself, heal your teammates. It's how you beat Sloppy Butcher; heal altruistically while the killer is occupied. If you have heal speed perks (or a medkit you use on your teammate) it completely counters Sloppy even further if you find the perk especially obnoxious.
i noticed that most killer i face with sloppy tend to bring franklins as well. expect maybe spirit players.
honestly tho with how fast some of my soloq temmates end their chase and lackluster gen progress id rather bring a bnp instead of a medkit for a headstart in the match.as for perks botany by itself is nice but it doesnt help against hit and run wraith, stealth killer and mobility killer who can intterupt the heal.
I wanted to tell you aswell @jesterkind that i dont think sloppy is op. i think it makes some killer are a chance and fair like freddy, trapper..ect. my main issue is killers that use it way too well to the point it feels pointless wasting any time healing since it does nothing but confirm the death of you and the team eventually. ( I am still finding survivors with 1k hours healing against legion right after mending, imagine sloppy in the mix )
That says more about the entitled nature of those players than an issue with the perk. Infinite healing isnt something I find necessary and the fact that sloppy slightly slows it down hasnt ruined my solo games.
I also think Sloppy Butcher is a misery to face in Solo Q. I get why players run it, because it's really strong on most M1 Killers, but oh boy do I hate to see it.
If the Killer runs Nurse's Calling and likes to return to the hook, it's basically game over for most teams. Even with the best healing perk combos to counter it (few players will be running these anyway), I think it still takes far too long to heal each other. Getting consistent, safe heals from your team mates in Solo Q is just never going to happen.
I don't know what it was like to play the game before healing was nerfed, but I do wonder if this was a change that was meant to combat well co-ordinated SWFs and your average Solo Q suffering is the unintended collateral damage.
In any case, seeing this perk makes me want to run Resilience + Deja Vu every game and just blitz through gens.
Not sure your right with that definition, but teamwork makes it easier and faster, so I would say that is both encouraging team altruism and an incentive to work together over trying to slowly solo heal.
Yeah the perk makes healing slower but is more effectively countered by teamwork.
@DemonDaddy i think @TJTHEBEAST2299@tjt85 summarized it my soloq experience similarly to what he goes through and what has been talked soo far in this discussion. it punishes healing together heavily because its risky slow and healing other is just not a perk you would expect a soloq teammate to bring it. ive been running boon / botany well make it for a while. i can only run so much that i get tired especially with the horrible decision making from my teammates usually deciding to heal under hook or run away from me for 2 hours because they scared until they stop to heal only to get interrupted anyway.
defitnly needs a tweak and the best solution i saw on the discussion so far. is tone down the hemorrhage status effect then healing too slow woudnt matter because you can kind of salvage some of it.
its crazy that the only good use of a medkit is a syringe and one heal max for others cuz you cant heal yourself against sloppy if u get interrupted for 1 sec.
I feel like hemorrhage has been overtuned since they added that healing regression effect. My biggest complaint is that hemorrhage is so easily applied that it completely deletes 'partial healing' perks like resurgence and reactive healing.
I'd love to see hemorrhage referred to it's old form, but I seriously doubt that'll ever happen.
At minimum, I think the healing regression should only work if you're running. Standing still or even walking shouldn't drain heal progress, but running does. Give it some kind of counter play that still prevents the 99% thing people seem to hate, but isn't completely deleting an entire category of perks because the killer ran sloppy butcher.
Although I personally think the 99% issue was still solved by nerfing medkits. If someone is 99% with self care then congratulations, they wasted at least 34 seconds on that instead of a gen.
its a simple solution. make healing regress slower which counters 99d healing and give survivors a chance to salvage some of the time they wasted atleast.
Sloppy is a really good perk, but it has to be kept in mind that some of the strongest killers can't make good use of it (Nurse and Blight first and foremost), and that on many of the other killers it is actually just as strong as it needs to be. Getting hits on survivors as Doctor for example is something you have to work for, the idea of reliably getting hits on multiple survivors frequently and let alone letting them go after doing so is pretty outlandish, so to actually make this kind of "spreading the pressure" viable, something at the level of Sloppy is pretty much necessary for these killers. Not least because it makes taking hits for each other more difficult and risky, something that can otherwise be crippling to a killer like Doc. Sloppy as you rightly imply more so than about the slowdown aspect is about the pressure potential it can create, creating snowbally, risky situations where people cannot take hits, unhook people, contest objectives or survive chases as easily or safely, due to being injured. And this is great because that snowball potential is what various of the relatively weaker killers often lack, and these risky scenarios actually make the game exciting and tense, much more so than just having 4 slowdown perks.
These scenarios are definitely particularly problematic for solo groups, because they require much more coordination and caution to navigate. For your frustrations I would say matchmaking is to be blamed for the most part however. If you were to have more competent fellow survivors, I guarantee you would even come to enjoy playing against Sloppy, at least more so than playing against Deadlock in its stead, for instance. So I guess my first suggestion is to try to find better players to queue up together with, or lobby dodge and check profiles until you find survivors you have reason to believe are more competent. My other tip is to use Med-Kits with Built To Last. You are not dedicating so much to this at all, and it can give you 5+ fairly speedy heals, which should usually more than suffice. Inner Healing is also good, especially if getting tunnelled is a major concern for you with regards to being injured: after being unhooked, get into a locker and not only will the killer regularly not find you, but you will also be healthy. Sprint Burst and Quick & Quiet can more reliably get you into a locker after that unhook, Decisive Strike and/or Head On can provide a safety net should the killer end up finding you after all. Ellen's Lucky Star can prevent detection. Self-Care alongside a selection of Botany Knowledge, Desperate Measures and Resilience is also good, while things like Calm Spirit, Distortion and Bite The Bullet can prevent detection.
A tip that isn't really directly helpful for yourself but might end up being helpful in a group or in the future: Autodidact is actually a really rather potent tool against Sloppy because the Hemorrhage status allows the user to reliably farm 5 tokens on the first heal, simply by letting go of the heal interaction and restarting it until they have gotten enough skill checks, from there on out then providing good healing power, if not all that reliably. Using this with an aura perk like Aftercare is good in solo, and doing so might also encourage others to do in kind.
I will say that some killers are pretty BS to face with Sloppy in solo. Hit-and-run Wraith as well as other stealth killers on indoor maps are pretty problematic, not just for solos. Spirit is a BS killer anyway, I'm glad she for some reason isn't popular at all anymore these days. Sloppy Hag that just keeps hitting and retrapping everything is obnoxious. Her hits out of teleports as well as Spirit's hits out of phase and Wraith's out of cloak could be treated as special attacks, so as to not trigger Sloppy. Although I'm not sure that is really appropriate. Certain killers' 3-gen potential can get to be a little too much to handle with Sloppy, particularly again for solos of course. In all of these instances, Gift Of Pain would be a much more healthy alternative, because it requires killers to actually hook to get that strong Mangled + Hemorrhage effect going.
For Hemorrhage it can also be argued that it regresses the heal a little too intensely. The regression is essentially instant, even just the couple of seconds of interruption due to Ultimate Weapon (a problematic perk in its own right) can all but nullify the heal, and this is particularly notable these days where Med-Kit charges are awfully limited and Self-Care heals take an awfully long time. I think the heal regression should be much more gradual, say at half a charge per second.
Circle was also overnerfed and I think it would be perfectly fine - and healthy even - if it still enabled survivors to heal themselves, albeit at 32 seconds per heal (40 under Mangled then, obviously).
One of the reasons why treatment is hindered in the first place is because the place you are standing is too bad. Let's change the position.
Secondly, there is no big problem if you are chased before your injury is healed.
Make preparatory moves before entering the chase to loss the killer's time as possible before he takes you down, and even if you do go down, you can pull him away from key positions.
your solution is literally the problem we are talking about did you read any of the discussion mentioned before ?
going away from hook to the edge of the map with a teammate just to heal slowly and still risk killer seeing you with aura perks or ultimate weapon to cancel your heal and down you in a bad spot is the problem.
nothing you can do against a wraith clocked even kindered cant help much. or spirit with nice addons.
YOUR solution pushes people into accepting there is nothing they can do about the annoying healing and just bring BNP toolboxes. MFT HOPE ADRENALINE............ people are still not getting the fact that Sloppy is causing what its there to help against.....
@zarr your post is quite long ill take my time reading it so i can give it a fair reply
I just dont see such a dramatic impact from this in my games. Im not running any perks for healing and the effects hasnt pressured me to make any changes to my loadout.
If I see the perk then its pretty common for the team to heal each other as solo method are less effective. Bad teammates make everything worse but I dont see the perk as the problem in the situation.
I hate it when people do this, I run resilience every now and then, and I'd always rather be healed than stay injured because of resilience. Now combined with adrenaline theres a nasty combo.
I normally run we'll make it in my build as I'm heavily altruistic and it just shreds sloppy. When I use it and heal people they normally feel inclined to heal me back.
I get that Sloppy Butcher is not fun to play against but its not that strong, nor is it used by top tier killers.
If you want to heal you can still do it quickly. We''ll make it and Botany help a lot with altruistic heals and Botany can still be good for self healing. The medkit addon that grants +10 charges allows you to get a normal heal and still have enough charges to use a Syringe while using Botany.
Inner Healing is also pretty good if you know totem placements. Even Desperate Measures is good right now considering the amount of players that refuse to heal. Plot Twist is not that fast for a heal but makes up for it in versatility. You can counter quite a few killer perks with it.
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If healing was this big waste of time some people pretend it is then Oni would be dominating the meta right now. And if staying injured was actually dangerous then Plague would be dominating the meta.
Sloppy is a pubstomper perk and i would not mind a redesign for it but solo play is bad regardless of this perk. Having perks like Reactive Healing and Resurgence be affected by the regression is pretty dumb too.
If you want your solo play experience to improve then a better matchmaking or a ping system for communication would be better for solo than a Sloppy nerf.
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Even if sloppy were to be nuked tomorrow the stay injured meta would stay strong because staying injured is usually the most effective way to play. There are multiple survivor perks that encourage you to stay injured and focus on gens.
Why heal up when you can pre run with MFT or Sprint Burst and still waste a lot of time from the killer before the chase even starts? Its even worse if its a MFT + DH combo.
Why heal when instead you can blitz through generators with a strong toolbox? And then recharge it with Built to Last.
Why heal when the mid and low tier killers can't down people in a timely manner? The average killer is not that threatening.
Why heal when multiple users of Adrenaline is about to erase all pressure the killer has once the final gen pops?
I am not advocating that you play like this, just pointing out why many people do it regardless of Sloppy Butcher.
Botany+ we'll make it and you can insta heal even against sloppy, if devs want a real meta shakeup not a fake one like 6.1 I would remove hemorrhage honestly, mangled is fine but killers like wraith get insane value from hemorrhage
try to play against a sloppy-nurse calling wraith see how fun it is
it was mentioned many times in the discussion that the problem is how well a hit and run wraith or spirit renders the game almost unwinnable for soloq players. There is just too much chaos to expect altruistic perks or level headed decision as when to heal and when not to.
I am not saying the perk is Overpowered. However iam saying that it is overtuned and give too much for little effort. at the very least the hemorrhage status effect need to be looked into then the perk woudnt be so problematic. ( i like Soloq because i find swf with good players is kind of boring and defeats the purpose... just like running 3 slowdown perks on blight with alc ring where is the fun in that)
you havent had the pretty common hit and run wraith that refuses to chase unless he catche you off guard injured on gen because u cant get healead. or Spirit with sloppy and 3 gen slow down perks continiously ending chases fast while survivors can barely heal in time to keep up or do any gens ? How about the tunneling wesker that abuse 8% hindered off the unhook and sloppy slow heal time while running 3 gen slow down perks ?
i honestly how some people cant see the glaring issue with how overtunedsloppy can be and how Easley it is to abuse. Let me just say that sloppy was strong before the healing nerfs. now its just overkill.
i liek your level headed opinion, but if sloppy loses the hemorrhage status effect tomorrow or have it slow down drastically. then perk is fine even against soloq. as many tweaks the game needs this is an easy one to fix and its frustrating to go against in pubs.
FYI: i comeback to the same point after reading the opinions shared in this discussion, that damn hemorrhage status effect is too fast to be fair with current healing speed
You stated it yourself that the wraith doesnt chase and requires a sneak attack. Ive played against this and as, its on the survivor to be vigilant. Its not op, just an advantage that the killer has to earn and pressure survivors to maintain.
Im not blind to the advantages killers can create with the perk, I just dont see it as an obstacle that cant be overcome. Ive had both wins and losses against all of the killers mentioned, there are many factors why survivors lose and pinning it solely on the killer lacks personal accountability.
Sloppy shouldn’t be nerfed. The point of slow heals was to compensate for the gen kick nerfs. The Survivor either takes the time to heal up so they don’t go down, or they do gens injured and risk going down. There is actual risk/reward in such situations.
Knowing devs, their idea of balance is to completely obliterate a perk instead of minor tweaks like reducing the time taken to heal from mangled by 2-3 seconds. That’s not balance, that’s just nerfing whatever is strong.
I won't listen to We'll make it slander. We'll make it is a great perk in general, especially after the general healing nerfs. An alternative is Inner Healing which is 2 objectives in one (totem/healing), that counters Sloppy Butcher. It's sad though that already obscure healing perks that were not considered great to begin with got shafted in the process (still waiting for Reactive Healing to be useable)
It's true that Sloppy Butcher murders solo queue, but this happens with every time a killer perk is buffed/and or survivor perks/items are nerfed/decimated. You mentioned CoH, but it's actually decent in a co-ordinated team, the problem is solo survivor.
It just makes no sense that BHVR keep promoting strategies that require teamwork and co-ordination to counter and offer no such basekit mechanics to survivors who are solo, but still expect you to be willing to play against those strategies under such conditions. That's the real unfair balance.
I agree with the Hemorrhage effect being overtuned, the regression being nigh instant is a bit silly.
You could queue with at least 1 or 2 other players, and refrain from using voice communcations. Believe me, 2 and even 1 random survivors are still plenty of a liability, matches will still be tough but with this you would much more often be competitive against killers and builds like this, especially if you have others bring perks like We'll Make It or Autodidact. Also consider Med-Kits with Built To Last and Inner Healing. Or Plot Twist for something that can also help against being tunnelled with Sloppy, while still also providing 1 (and up to 2) full heals that are not affected by Sloppy.
But yes, I hope they will look at the Hemorrhage effect, and that they will lift Circle out of obscurity again, which was a saving grace for solo survivor really.
I am surprised you think sloppy is a big offender here. You have perks like knockout or third seal which far more demonstrate this problem then sloppy.
judging by latest perk usage rate i honestly think in the next perk shake up sloppy wiil get a tweak. i just hope it will tackle the unfair part hemorrhage part of it
I agree with two sentiments:
Other than that, Sloppy Butcher is fine. It's a good perk for M1 killers, and M1 killers need good perks. You have plenty of healing perks and tools to use, so use them.
We shouldn't be making balance decisions around a single killer, if that killer is too strong because basekit things change, that killer should be nerfed.
It is easier to buff ALL killers, then nerf the 3 problematic ones, than it is to buff 20+ killers.
you confused me in more ways than one. you are literally using the profile picture of a killer who cause normal perks to get nerfed time and time again so i dont see the point
We'll Make It counters mangled pretty well, and it's a strong perk even if the killer isn't using mangled.
As for Hemo, I culd see them removing it altogether from Sloppy. pr at the very least not make it buff hemo.
When i play solo i get three types of players:
It is not sloppy butcher that ruins solo q. It is bot players, rewarded for cleansing totems, hiding all games and easy unhooks. No gens=no escapes
Yeah, i main nurse. I also think she is a problem for the game. Are you thinking it isn't possible for both of these things to be true at the same time? I think in general that the BIGGER problem based on simply play rates, is to deal with the fact that around 20-25+ killers are completely unviable at high MMR is more pertinent. And then of course dealing with the 3 killers that are a problem. The rest are relatively okish right now.
nurse has an addon for half of sloppy im not sure which effect it was on blink hits which is pretty underrated addon.
everytime i see a wraith running sloppy or spirit i just take a look at how my temmates are doing if i see them being efficient on gens and heals ill do my best. if i see one hooked 2 injured and my gen keep recycling pop pain res and jolt i just give up and move on.
hope the devs will adress sloppy in a future update.