Slugging for the 4k
First off, I have been really glad with some of the changes made recently to make the game health a lot better. I still am of the opinion that there should be an advantage for killers to not tunnel, because in a lot of cases, tunneling early in the game is still worth the trouble, especially if the chase is relatively short(or a disadvantage for killing someone very early on, like buffing the remaining survivors untill at least 3 gens are finished). But all in all, happy with those changes.
However, slugging for a 4k in my eyes is still quite a glaring issue. 2 survivors are already dead, you are on the ground and the killer, with no additional information, starts searching the entire map just for that final survivor. And the final survivor? Well, they have no reason to help their teammate. That would give away their position, and the killer can return to the slugged survivor to simply slug them again. So you're forced to hide for up to 4 minutes if you want any chance of escaping.
This kills the gameflow and ruins games. And the worst part? There are some legitimate reasons for killers to do so:
- certain rift challenges(why sacrifice 8 survivors over 3 games when you can kill them in 2?)
- achievements(mainly adept)
- getting just that extra bit for a double pip
To survivors, there is no way of telling the difference between a killer slugging just to complete a challenge, and a killer slugging so a survivor doesnt have a chance at the hatch. It's quite a shame if a game lasts 12 minutes, only to be forced to spend 1/3rd of that match waiting for your teammate to bleed out because the killer refuses to hook.
Are there any plans in the works to address this specific scenario? Personally, I'd suggest making the difference between 3 kills and 4 kills much smaller Emblem-wise(or add a scoring feature when a survivor escapes through hatch), and then give a survivor the ability to opt-out of a match after being slugged for prolonged times(or the ability to pick themselves up, any reason to force the killer to pick them up and hook them or suffer the consequences).
Comments
Giving a chance of escape in an otherwise likely unwinnable situation is literally rewarding failure.
then what would you do if you were playing surv and one of your teammate dies in the first 2-3min leading you to an unwinnable situation?
Not care and do gens and chases and whatever, cause that’s still points to get?
Camping and tunneling havent been addressed?
Hooktimers used to be 45 seconds, they are now 60 seconds. Basekit BT+movementspeed. Hooks no longer spawn in tiles that you cant use. Bodyblocking is much more effective. Adding 15 seconds was huge. Basekit BT+movementspeed is huge. Adding Reassurance was huge, and that is on top of perks like Kindred, DS, Off The Record, and Guardian. Hooks also turn, back in the day, they werent turnable. Making camping overall less effective. The only change that camping needs now is the removal of hookgrabs(as hitting a survivor already guarantees a hooktrade).
Slugging is literally the only mechanic that hasnt really gotten that treatment. Sure, you have Unbreakable, but that is pretty much the only perk you can run to somewhat prevent it, and Unbreakable only allows you to pick yourself up once. No Mither and Soulguard might add more than 1 pick-up, but No Mither is too easy to spot and probably gets you killed first, and Soulguard requires a hex.
Also, what was survivors breaking gamerules in your previous argument? Because survivors arent breaking any gamerules.
why are people complaining about hatch again?
Because they consider it a free escape, when its really not. Which is especially hypocritical since slugging for the 4k would give the killer a free kill.
Doing gens knowing that you will lose is the same as giving up. You need to have some chance of escaping against this type of situations that are not unusual. If not what keeps you from DCing
Argument boils down to people don't like slugging for 4k but it's necessary as counterplay to hatch
There's some disagreements here and there but that's the gist. Half the thread is some back and forth with the words LMAO repeated over and over bc implying your laughing at someone's argument makes it less valid apparently
Nothing new then. Hows it going btw its been a while
Hatch kinda needs to be there because a survivor can just take the game hostage by walking around the map doing nothing, with hatch, if the survivor is doing nothing, and the killer finds hatch, he can close it and wait out the 2 minutes the survivor wants to hide for
Just getting my rear-end handed to me in solo Q a lot, the usual stuff. Not too bad otherwise
Hopefully things are well for yourself!
They are thank you. Yeah solo que sucks. It was made worse with the blastmine nerf since you cant use the yellow aura
you can bring it up if you want, sure. I did read the game rules and I'm well aware of the rules of the game. Same as you should be.
No, it doesn't give anyone free anything. The killer must catch and kill the survivor. they don't die by themselves. There is no such thing as free kill. Unless you stand in front of the killer begging to be killed. If he chases you, it's his effort and his kill.
I would just say don't make any assumptions. I play this game all the time and have fairly decent MMR for both Killer and Survivor. I'm also fairly decent with all the killers as well. I mean think what you want. I really don't have the energy to argue back and forth with you about your assumptions of how I earned my adepts. Do you. You play decent in all point categories throughout the match and get one golden emblem you're going to still get the adept, just saying.
Hatch doesnt really need counterplay though, there are some exceptions where hatch might ruin something, but the majority of people do not slug for those reasons, they slug because they want a guaranteed 4 kill without having to put in any additional effort.
Essentially, the hatch mechanic is more than fair enough to have some unlucky RNG postpone a few killer challenges to 1 more match. Thats nothing compared to needing to finish 8 gens(not just work on 8 gens total, finishing them), which can be done in 2 matches if you're lucky, but more often than not takes 10+ matches due to camping and tunneling preventing you from working on gens, let alone finishing them. And thats the same amount of BP and rift fragments given, to a challenge that might otherwise take 1 or 2 more games because hatch exists.
Essentially, its not necessary to counterplay hatch, because the counterplay is to find and close it. If RNG on hatch is the issue, well, why not complain about generator spawn RNG, or hook spawn RNG, or tile RNG, or tile rotation RNG, or sometimes even dedicated server being the deciding factor between you hitting a survivor or it being rolled back, which is basically RNG too. Why is hatch RNG any different from those? The combined factor of all other RNG can actually lose or win you the game much more significantly than hatch can.
And thats not even the gist of it, because the true gist of it is slugging for the 4k killing the gameflow, being extremely boring for all parties involved and being the only mechanic from 2016 that hasnt recieved any significant changes.
There isnt really any perk that works the exact same way as it did in 2016, and if they barely changed, they now have plenty of counterplay. Hooks, gens, loops, maps, items(including addons), offerings, killer powers, camping(albeit not enough to prevent early game camping), tunneling, hatch, basement, chests, graphics, sound, interface, overall gameflow, chase, terror radius(first being personal, then being standardized, now being made more personal again). All this has recieved an update, rework or at the very least a decent attempt of being changed to make the game more fun for all parties involved. Slugging is the only exception, with slugging for the 4k being inexcusable when it comes to entertainment.
Now, overall, I think slugging is fine and barely needs any alteration, maybe an increase in speed to move around the map and meet up with teammates quicker and enough to make the killer think twice on where you actually dropped, but thats it. But since slugging ends up with you dying, it should be treated in a similar way that hooks are: a chance to pick yourself up at the cost of increased speed of death, and a chance to opt-out. Being forced to wait 4 full minutes to exit a game, without being able to participate in any meaningful manner, is something that should no longer exist. Give them a way to participate in a meaningful way and a way to speed up the dying progress.
You brought it up...
Also feels like I'm running Flip-Flop in here, if you know what I'm saying @_@
But what is the risk? There is none.
As for no such thing as a free kill, yeah, there is. And for the last bit, if a survivor escapes the match, its their effort, and their escape, no such thing as a free escape. Either you worked for it, or you sacrificed something for it. If hatch truly was a free escape, it would be accessible at 5 gens.
DBD players when you counter a mechanic that allows a survivor that doesn’t have to do literally anything except being the last alive a chance to escape after losing:
I brought up the game guide. In which is explained what is the objective as a survivor, waiting and hiding until the hatch opens isn't among the things written there. So I just underlined that fixing gens until the gate is powered up, and help your teammates when you can is indeed your objective. And the killers objective is finding survivors and killing them. Again he has a number of options doing so, and in any order he choses to kill them. He can do it by mori, allowing somone to bleed out, sacrificing, or having them killed by endgame collapse. It's up to the killer to chose the course of action for that.
But sure if you want to talk about rules, we can do that too.
DBD players when you use a mechanic that doesnt allow a survivor to do anything except being forced to remain in game untill you finally chase down the final survivor, which you can do with 0 risk and no losses(you can down even the most godlike survivor within 4 minutes, downing a survivor is a matter of time, downing a survivor early is a matter of skill), be like:
Sure there is not much of a risk killing the last survivor. But that doesn't make it a free kill. It's within the rights of the killer to chose the course of action and the order he wants to harm or kill survivors.
My bad!
I thought you meant that killers can waste an indefinite amount of survivor time on a whim in scenarios like this ('keep you there if you refuse to play'), which is a bannable offense.
As your future responses seem to rebuke my interpretation of these events, can you tell me what the intended point is and how it relates to the discussion of slugging for the 4k?
But mooooooooom I wanted to escaaaaaaaape!
Oh you mean like 99ing the doors so you can eliminate EGC
If there is no risk, then its a free kill. Downing a survivor isnt a matter of skill, its a matter of time. Having a risk means you're forced to down a survivor early, this is the skill part of killer. When there is no more risk, there is no more skill required. If there is no more skill required, its free.
As for "In which is explained what is the objective as a survivor, waiting and hiding until the hatch opens isn't among the things written there."
This completely debunks your argument for waiting and hiding.
As for the survivor objective of doing gens, well, look at the killer version countering your other argument too:
This is more than enough evidence proving that slugging in a 2v1 is the killer wasting time, not the survivor, like you erroneous try to claim.
You do realize that is an unofficial fan wiki ran by volunteers right? LMFAOOO
Killers can open doors themselves to start EGC. Survivors cant suicide while downed, bad argument.
With direct quotes from the game. I was too lazy to start up the game to get the data from there.
How much do you want to disprove yourself?
oh don't worry the killer will carry the survivor to the hook without fail. Whenever he wishes to do so. Including the last survivor. He is doing his task, don't worry. You just keep doing your part.
if someone is slugged you don't have a hatch for alternative escape so the hatch escape isn't among your objectives since there are 2 living survivors, even if you wish there would be only one, you. The alternative escape route doesn't apply, only if you are the last survivor in the game. And you are not.
So failing to do your own task and blaming the killer for it who is actually hunting and looking for survivors is just pointless.
What is it like being so embarrassingly objectively wrong? Devs have repeatedly stated slugging for 4K is a legitimate tactic. Guess what they’ve also done? They’ve also stated numerous times that survivors hiding and refusing to touch gens at all is a reportable offense that requires video evidence to be submitted. They’ve also stated over and over that doing so counts as refusal to participate in normal gameplay and holding the game hostage.
Survivor goals are to power the gates and then escape. Which is why doing gens is a part of the game.
Killer goals are to deny escape, killing survivors in the process. Which is why defending gens is a part of the game.
Please educate yourself. Thanks!
The hatch, from the start of the match, is part of the game. Simply saying you cant consider the hatch without it actually spawning is like demanding Trapper to not trap the exitgates untill they are powered. The Trapper traps the exitgates in advance because he knows they can be powered, just like the survivor plans in advance to use the hatch, because they know it will appear.
So what is it, is Trapper trapping the exitgates before all gens are finished not doing his task, or are survivors waiting for hatch doing their task? You cant have trapper doing his task and the survivors not, because with your logic, gens are still remaining so he should patrol those rather than the exitgates.
"Devs have repeatedly stated slugging for 4K is a legitimate tactic."
Oh please, give me those statements. Ones that are recent too btw. Because they stated camping and tunneling was a legitimate tactic untill they started addressing them. Devs have also repeatedly stated that using Dead Hard to reach windows and pallets was a legitimate tactic. So please, one thats recent, and not from 2020.
As for survivors hiding and refusing to touch gens is a reportable offense. Yeah, "Survivors". Not survivors. Any survivor can hide and refuse to touch gens. In fact, 3 survivors could hide and refuse to touch gens. As long as the game progresses, there is no issue. The full quote contains the fact that survivors are not progressing the game in any mean and thus prevent the killer from finishing the game in an orderly manner.
"Killer goals are to deny escape"
No, that isnt their goal. Their goal is to kill as many survivors as they can. Not to deny escape. This is why the hatch exists in the game. This is why many people are trying to get devs to a point to either change slugging in a 2v1, or consider it holding the game hostage. Because the killer's next goal, after downing a survivor, is to hook them and then find a new survivor. Sometimes dropping and keeping them slugged is better to pressure other survivors during a chase. Slugging someone for the 4k isnt doing either of those. You do not add any pressure, in fact, you remove all the pressure in the game, because the survivor has no reason to work on gens anymore, since the hatch exists.
Defending gens is part of the game, hatch is part of the game, slugging for the 4k only became recently part of the game after nerfing the hatch, now its time to nerf slugging for the 4k
wrong again. the hatch doesn't exist as an option until you are the last survivor. So it's not part of the game unless the conditions are met for it.
"..... the survivor plans in advance to use the hatch, because they know it will appear." -Nope, maybe it will not appear, stop planning for things that don't exist yet. Until the killer is hunting and looking for you and kills you, he is perfectly fulfilling his obligation. He is planning for things that do exist there. You are there and he's coming for you. The hatch isn't there, so what are you actually doing?
This entire thread perfectly embodies the DBD Forums.
Step 1: OP states their opinion
Step 2: Random Forum User A tangents OP's opinion with a "counterpoint" that fails to understand OP's grievances.
Step 3: OP responds to Random Forum User A's comment as if it actually addressed their initial post, thus stearing the conversation in a direction OP did not initially intend it to go
Step 4: Random Forum User B, C, and D arrive to jump on OP's rebuttal, further pushing the conversation in a direction OP did not intend
Step 5: Sensible Forum User A arrives to remind others what OP's original point was
Step 6: Sensible Forum User A's comment is upvoted, but otherwise ignored, allowing the conversation to continue in the wrong direction
Step 7: Random Forum User Z arrives 5 pages later to see that no meaningful conversation was had, and everyone continues to stay in their lanes, because they chose to disregard OP's grievances in favor other whataboutisms
slugging has nothing to do with holding the game hostage. Holding the game hostage implies that someone is literally blocking you from continuing your objectives and advance the game by any means. You are perfectly free to continue repairing gens and heal the downed teammate. Which is your job, and the killer doesn't deny that at all. So he doesn't hold the game hostage. Maybe he denies you the preferred strategy you would LIKE to use, but that's his choice.
And survivors can hide in a locker and force the killer to wait the whole endgame collapse too, wasting the killers time.
Hatch spawning early was an excellent tool for punishing early kills for hard tunneling off of hook. I will stand by punishing undesired gameplay, and rewarding desired gameplay. The details may differ for approaches, although I feel the excessive tunneling was enhanced by hatch's removal. As for Slugging for the 4k, (outside of say endgame collapse) it is a selfish endeavor that the killer engages in to stroke their own ego. They know they already won, but want to squeeze any remaining enjoyment out of the game from the 2-4 survivors.
If the killer's build was revealed on your death when no one in your party is alive, then I would say it is better. This way the reason behind the removal (SWF dying and telling the team about NOED/No Way Out/other perks) is addressed, without impacting solo-q.
It is also fine if you have an idea of where the person is and commit to one last chase to end the match. I even am fine with hunting down the last survivor because you want to reward the slugged survivor with hatch/gate, instead of the other player. 4 minute bleedout, or even worse, 3m59s bleedout into hook, is such a waste of everyone's time. It may not be against rules as written and enforced, but it is against the spirit of the rules. It is far more scummy than survivors t-bagging at the exit gate for the endgame collapse because at least killer can force them out, or wait 2 minutes.
"This is blatantly false. If you're hooked, you still participate in the game," You've misunderstood what I mean from non-participation. (Maybe I'm not very clear but I've had this conversation before so was light on detail this time).
In this event non-participation means inability to progress the survivor objective. I agree with you on every element of you are still in play when hooked, slugged you name it. Because being hooked and slugged is part of the game.
"If you are slugged and everyone else is dead, you are no longer participating in the game." You have a point maybe it should be like final hook auto kill where bleed out timer is halved if you are the last one in game and slugged.
Now here we come to the problem in your reply... you counter your own point. (I'm not sure if you missed it or it was intentional but it doesn't make sense). So here is where it comes apart...
"If you have teammates to pick you up, you are still participating in the game." - True, we've both established this.
"In a 2v1 and the killer slugging for the 4k, you are no longer participating. You have no control over your death." - Ah counter intuitive to your last statement, in a 2v1 you still have a team mate whom can pick you up so you are, by your words, still participating in the game. Which is my point.
"So yeah, the only solution to this is to punish the killer to prevent this." - Well no because as you pointed out its still participation because you can still be picked up by your other team mate, you are still actively in game so what justifies punishing killers here?
The only conceivable reason I can think of is "I don't like being slugged at 2 remaining survivors when killers go for the 4k", well sucks to be you then because its a legit part of the game and its gonna happen sometimes, so expect it.
Facecamp at egc
Not slugging for the 4k and giving hatch are two very different things. You are still very likely to find the hatch before the remaining survivor does even if you don't slug for the 4k.
Slugging for the 4k is not equivalent to survivors attempting a 4E. In a 4E attempt, it's extremely risky and likely to result in a trade. Slugging for the 4k has no risks. The survivors can't do the remaining gens at this point, and you're only doing it to prevent the possibility of the remaining survivor getting hatch.
The person on the ground has to bleed out for 4 minutes because it would be stupid for their teammate to pick them back up knowing that they'd just be taking the bait. There's a simple solution, though. Let survivors choose to bleed out faster. But I'm sure if that was an option, killer mains would cry about how it's unfair that survivors have hatch while killers have nothing equivalent.
If all four possible options for a game amount to: you've lost, but how long do you want to draw it out - the game has a problem that should be addressed. Really at this point the survivors should just have a surrender option if killers are going to be so opposed to hatch and we can all move onto the next game.
You can have faster bleed outs as soon as exit gate regression is a thing
Exit Gate regression and faster bleed outs aren't even related, so why should one require the other to be a thing? It's just silly. One is a direct buff to killers and the other is a QOL improvement that means one person isn't wasting their time for 4 minutes.
And killers have the option of forcing said survivors to leave. Unlike being slugged for the 4k, you still have a way to move on to your next game faster.
How does camping and tunneling reward failure, besides you can’t remove them from the game
OK let's go over this point, It's a 1 on 1 hatch is closed, killer needs to patrol doors, survivor hides in locker for entire endgame, never making a move for the doors out of spite.
How exactly do you force them out?
Ok I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you want the faster bleedout as an actual QOL change.
So along with bleeding yourself out to move on to the next match, no longer caring about the current match, and we dont wanna give any advantages, hatch shouldnt spawn until your bleedout timer would have expired naturally.
And also since you are depriving the killer of the opportunity to make it back to hook you, using the faster bleedout would have to count as being hooked in terms of emblem score/perks and stuff, and assuming your not on death hook it would grant all individual hooks, so you cant use it to screw over a killer going for say an adept achievment.
On the first point, you can just as easily get the survivor out of the locker and kill them. I thought you meant gates are open and the survivor's just hiding in the locker to kill time.
On the second point, bleeding out faster is no different from someone on second stage deliberately missing their skill checks to let the last survivor get hatch sooner.
More often than not, the slug bleeds out before the killer finds the last survivor, and you aren't rewarded for that with hook states, emblem scores and perk effects. Nor should you be rewarded for slugging for the 4k if a survivor chooses to bleed out faster. Hook them instead. If the last finds hatch before you do, then so be it.