Slugging for the 4k
First off, I have been really glad with some of the changes made recently to make the game health a lot better. I still am of the opinion that there should be an advantage for killers to not tunnel, because in a lot of cases, tunneling early in the game is still worth the trouble, especially if the chase is relatively short(or a disadvantage for killing someone very early on, like buffing the remaining survivors untill at least 3 gens are finished). But all in all, happy with those changes.
However, slugging for a 4k in my eyes is still quite a glaring issue. 2 survivors are already dead, you are on the ground and the killer, with no additional information, starts searching the entire map just for that final survivor. And the final survivor? Well, they have no reason to help their teammate. That would give away their position, and the killer can return to the slugged survivor to simply slug them again. So you're forced to hide for up to 4 minutes if you want any chance of escaping.
This kills the gameflow and ruins games. And the worst part? There are some legitimate reasons for killers to do so:
- certain rift challenges(why sacrifice 8 survivors over 3 games when you can kill them in 2?)
- achievements(mainly adept)
- getting just that extra bit for a double pip
To survivors, there is no way of telling the difference between a killer slugging just to complete a challenge, and a killer slugging so a survivor doesnt have a chance at the hatch. It's quite a shame if a game lasts 12 minutes, only to be forced to spend 1/3rd of that match waiting for your teammate to bleed out because the killer refuses to hook.
Are there any plans in the works to address this specific scenario? Personally, I'd suggest making the difference between 3 kills and 4 kills much smaller Emblem-wise(or add a scoring feature when a survivor escapes through hatch), and then give a survivor the ability to opt-out of a match after being slugged for prolonged times(or the ability to pick themselves up, any reason to force the killer to pick them up and hook them or suffer the consequences).
Comments
Why is a 4 man escape so important to some? I don't get the difference. Both sides are trying their best to secure an absolute win.
Wanting the 4th kill is enough reason.
No that's not the objective, it simply shows the progress of the hook. It's only present when he hooks someone. The killer also has the counter of how many gens are still up, and patrol and prevent them to be fixed if necessary. Killers have the objective to kill. They can do it by mori, by allowing you to bleed out, by hooking, or by any means they see fit.
I'm merely showing you that in case the game is dragged when one of the last two survivors being slugged, the killer is actively playing because he's looking for survivors, the survivor is stalling it by hiding away. The game isn't dragged by the killer at all, he's playing the game.
The time is simply dragged by the survivor refusing to play so there shouldn't be any complaint from survivor side that the game was dragged in the end when he was the one doing that, that's all. He's the one wasting time, that's all.
"quite early on" Means quite early in the month. And as for the changes now, well, they did adjust the way MMR starts I guess, but that doesnt really take away from the argument as the problem persists. Basically, if I was a high mmr killer on one killer, all my killers would have increased MMR too. They didnt add an MMR decay in place untill Sadako was released, and the MMR drop is too slow to notice for pretty much all killers up untill Sadako. I didnt even attempt the new killers since Artist other than maybe reset day because the survivors I faced would be mid-mmr when I should be low MMR on those killers. The effect on the old killers lingers there.
As for playing killer that much, well, not recently, but definitely 2k hours at the very least.
The MMR issue still persists on killers like Billy, who I have never played and only leveled up to lvl 30 for the final teachable that I needed. It might not affect Wesker due to changes, but I have no reason to practice Billy because the survivors I encounter are still far too similar to the survivors I encounter when I play Trapper, and Trapper is my 4th pick when it comes to playing killer. That is the whole issue. Having adept on all killers doesnt really change that.
And its not really possible to get iridescent on 3 except gatekeeper without getting 4 kills: Devout requires 4 kills, 9 hooks and everyone being hooked once for iridescent. Let 1 person escape, and its gold(2 points per kill, 1 point for 9 hooks and 1 point for hooking everyone once=8 points). With Gatekeeper being very hard to keep iridescent for most killers, that means that letting 1 person go means 2 gold and 2 iridescent. You're not gonna get a merciless from that unless you're bronze.
I'm not calling BS on you having all adepts, but if you let someone go, odds are that you had gatekeeper at iridescent.
4 man escapes are only important to SWF's. They almost don't exist in Solo Q and no one expects them lol.
I think the issue is that slugging the second last survivor usually ends up with that survivor on the ground for 4 minutes until bleed out and well... it's dull. I've also seen many Killers just camping the slug, making any pick up impossible. So it's tedious to just wait around for 4 mins, especially when the Hatch is neutral and doesn't count as a win in BHVR's MMR. The Killer basically won in that scenario.
As OP stated, people understand when there's a Rift challenge or what not. I don't blame Killers for wanting the 4k. The problem is being the slug and lying there for 4 mins doing nothing.
Sorry mate, but I ain't giving a free hatch to someone who'd rather let their partner bleed out than try to help at all. I can absolutely hide all game and get the hatch. It's not surviving that takes skill, it's surviving from the killer.
The number of people just hiding to get a free escape even before only two people remain is enormous. And I'll punish those people by a sweet mori.
Besides, it's called counterplay. What, are you going to complain that people can actually bodyblock to prevent a hook as well? Because that's the same.
A hatch is just a "You lost, here's your participation medal".
You can but it's by no means guaranteed, For example the one metal to get ear adjustment you need to hook everyone at least once and you need at least 9 hook event, So if one person's been playing super stealthy and hiding the whole game and that ends up getting hatch you're not getting your adept.
Not to mention with some killers because your chaser emblem gets lowered by using your power sometimes you need those extra sacrifice points To make up for a weaker emblem in the chaser department
I don't like VHS for the most part, but I like the way they address extreme stalemates with the Rift and Super Rift mechanic.
Honestly, just giving survivors the option to bleed out faster at 2 remaining survivors would clean it up a bit. Wouldn't work with everyone/3 alive, because that would just lead to greater slugging viability and nobody wants that. Well, I should say nobody interested in a fun game wants that.
I'd also like to see hatch automatically close and start the EGC after being open for 2 minutes. I still see killers sit on hatch and refuse to close it/play the gates. There really shouldn't ever be the option to induce a stalemate or lose scenario.
Just like the generators simply show the progress on the gate. It's only present because the gate isnt powered. They are a team objective, just like the hooks are an anti-team objective. You hook survivors to reduce the survivor teamplay, survivors do gens to escape as a team. But when it comes to a solo escape? It doesnt matter if its the gate or not.
As for actively playing, well again, hiding is intended survivor gameplay. A survivor hiding from the killer is actively playing. The killer is dragging on the game for no real reason other than to guarantee a 4k if the survivor does anything. The survivor cant really drag on the game at that point, as the survivor cannot create a way to escape when the killer is actively patrolling the map, including the slugged survivor.
The time is dragged by the killer refusing to hook. The only way a survivor doesnt drag the time is by showing themselves to the killer, which, goes against survivor objective.
And you might argue that working on gens doesnt equal showing themselves, but it is. Survivors are leaving evidence of their location, which is showing themselves to a killer. The killer can kill the 3rd survivor, but is refusing to do so. The survivor is still trying to escape. Who is going against their objective here? Helping out teammates is not the primary objective, doing gens isnt the primary objective. Escaping is the primary objective for survivors. Killing is the primary objective for killers. The only time a killer has no reason to not hook a survivor, is by baiting another survivor. Slugging for the 4k isnt baiting for another survivor.
Then wanting the hatch is enough counter reason. And preventing the game from being boring would overrule that reason. So what is your reason to counter that?
But you can pretty much eliminate the RNG bring a key, bring a hatch offering , wait for the killer to close hatch and then use your key to open it when he starts patrolling doors.
Other than that all you gotta do is play super safe and anytime you even hear the killer's terrorist hide to make sure that you have the opportunity to get hatched at the end Game
Because you've been playing as a team the whole game. I want as many of my teammates to escape as possible.
Main difference: It actually takes effort to go for a 4 man escape. Most killers can facecamp in such a situation and keep hooktrading untill someone is dead or guarantee a kill. Rescuing the 4th survivor actually creates a risk of more than 1 survivor dying.
So in short: you risk a potential multikill.
I've had plenty of games where the killer ended up getting 3 kills because survivors wanted to go for a 4 man escape. I have had 0 games where the killer slugging for the 4k in a 2v1 ended in 3 survivors escaping. Slugging for the 4k doesnt risk anything.
If slugging for the 4k gives a chance for one of my teammates to return to the match by rescuing them L4D style from a basement closet? Sure, I'm all for it, because then there is actually a risk to slugging for the 4k.
Well your objective is to escape. if you can't do that without powering up the gens, then you need to do your actual objective to escape, and fix them, not wait for the game to end on it's own. Check the game guide. Where is it shown that you need to wait passively for a hatch to open on it's own?
We are simply showing you that it's completely pointless to blame the killer for dragging the game when it's you who refuses to play it. Don't worry the killer will kill you when he finds you, so he will not fail doing his objective, only you dragged the time and refused to do yours. So it's pointless to complain about wasted time if you wasted it. The killer who wants to kill you, WILL kill you regardless if you pull time or not. So your best bet is to continue playing.
Slugging for 4K is legitimate gameplay. Hiding and refusing to repair generators is refusal to participate in normal gameplay and is holding the game hostage because it is realistically unviable for a killer to find people hiding while avoiding AFK Crows on purpose without spending an absurd amount of time, unless they have a specific power/add-on/perk that would help. This isn’t up for debate. BHVR has made this explicitly clear.
Boring is subjective and thus irrelevant to balance.
This isn't exactly fair.
I play Solo Q and in most slug scenarios, the Killer is camping the slug. I can't tell you how many times I've crept up, and heard the pug noise sinus condition of a Wraith cloaked, a stealthed Ghostface wander around, if it's a Spirit she is proxy camping- and picking up the slug is suicide.
I know there are selfish players (I'm a weathered, Solo Q veteran). But if 2-3 gens (or more) are still up, we are down to 2 survivors- there is NO WAY we are escaping through the gates. And in a way. that's kind of one of the flaws of the game. That the outcome can be decided very early on with no decent pathway for a comeback. But it is what it is. Back to my point: if there are two of us left, and I'm on a second hook state (if the Killer actually hooks me) I will let go so my team mate has a chance at the hatch. It's just understood all around playing Solo Q (mostly).
When the second last team mate is slugged, I check out if it's reasonable to try to pick them up. 85% of the time it's not for reasons stated above (campers, high mobility Killer proxying and the team mate just gets slugged again and the ordeal is repeated). So letting the team mate bleed out is not for self serving purposes. It's because the situation is untenable.
It's odd how much the hatch bothers some Killers as at a 3k you've already won. The Hatch is neutral and provides no MMR advancement for survivors. Without the hatch mechanic, no one would play Solo Q. People have to have some kind of hope, or some kind of goal in order to persevere otherwise why play the game?
The problem is people are complaining about killers slugging for the 4k, when it’s the optimal strategy to maximize the killer’s MMR. If the exit gates are too far apart to patrol, it’s better to let the survivor get hatch, then it is to risk them escaping through a gate. And yes, the gates are too far apart way more often than you think.
If they’re camping the slug, just work on gens? It isn’t weird people want the maximum result. Thinking that’s weird is what’s weird. Why stop at less when you can go all the way?
I usually do (mostly for BPs as my demise is nearly inevitable). But my dude, if there are 3 gens left, come ON. Exit gates are not going to happen and the great Hatch hunt still unfolds.
So what are you taking issue with again?
Then just give up and die if you aren’t willing to do that or wait the 4m? I don’t get why you want to reward the side who lost with a potential free escape.
Then slugging for 4K is fair and most games in fact you can get 4K. If you don't find the last. Finding the hatch is usually in killer favour with faster movement speed.
But I'm a one man army that entire game, what if I wanted my "deserved" 4 kills, my absolute win?
Why're you saying a 4 man escape is always skillfull, but a 4 man death is not skillful at all? What if I went for 4 kills by going for 12 hooks as much as possible, and also ending chases early with skillful macroplay as well as good mindgames?
By your logic I can say, "well a 4 man escape is so easy, you just unhook with bt (20 seconds of endurance), and have the gates 99ed."
You're just cherry picking certain situations to make it look like getting 4 kills is "easy" while getting a 4man escape is extremely skillful.
You don't risk a multikill if everyone is healthy and you have bt (or not, since 10 seconds basekit bt now) or you have a general idea on how to bodyblock. It's really not that hard as you describe it to be. It's not that it's super skillful and hard, it's that most solo q teammates are literal potatoes at the game (no offense). Is it unskillful? No. Are you exaggerating how much skill is needed to save someone during the end game? Yes.
Aren't willing to do what? What are you on about?
Are you saying I should just hand myself to the Killer if the second last team mate is slugged because.... you don't like hatch? I'm sorry I'm really confused. Did you read my post?
No, I’m saying do one of the following. Don’t care which one:
Obviously?
I'm not the OP. I never complained about slugging ( I just accept it happens). I was responding to someone who claimed it was always an entirely selfish reason that should be punished when a survivor doesn't pick up a slugged team mate at 2 survivors left.
I don’t think it’s selfish to not pick them up in that situation. My apologies for misdirected words then.
Killer objective is to get as many hooks possible if you bleed all survivors on ground get the 4K but as result you will get entity hungers you failed objective which is to please entity. Also moring everyone with tombstone also result in entity hungers. 3K is already enough for killer objective to get ruthless killer even in lower ranks merciless killer. Which pleases the entity. 4th kill is only plus not required. Survivors objective is to escape and hiding is valid stragedy for last survivor to achieve that if killer keeps second last slugged. Doing gens in that situatuon is not usually realistic option to achieve escape.
You're good!
They have survived from the killer all game. If a survivor was hiding all game and then slugged me to find that survivor who hid all game, sure, take your time to find them. But in 99% of the games, that isnt the case. You have survivors who have already survived 10 minutes from the killer, some even having been camped and tunneled already.
As for a free escape, its not free. The amount of people hiding to do so isnt even that enormous. I maybe encounter 1-2 survivors like that per month, regardless if I play killer or survivor, and the only times its more often is when the rift demands people to escape through the hatch.
And its not really counterplay, its denying an entire mechanic. Hatch counterplay is going there and closing it. You know what is the equalivant around hooks? 2016 hook mechanics where Saboteur could remove all surface hooks permanently from the game at only 2 minutes in. Thats removing an entire mechanic from killers.
And a hatch isnt a participation medal, its a reason to keep on playing. It keeps risk in the game. A survivor needs to be at risk of death while also having a chance of escape to have a reason to keep playing. If they receive neither, they have no reason to keep trying and instead just hide in lockers for 4 minutes.
Its boring, and if its boring for 30% of the duration of a match, its problematic.
Wow, it’s almost like a mechanic that rewards hiding and doing nothing with potential escape could be better-designed. Being the last one alive isn’t dependent on only skill. It’s also dependent on luck. If the killer just never happened to go for you, that has nothing to do with skill.
You are literally saying to remove the counterplay of a potential free escape for a side that has already lost LMAO
LOL - Forums have been hilarious this week!
Feel free to crawl towards the other survivor or throw yourself at the killer asap if you want the game to end faster.
If you want to get an attempt at hatch, feel free to stealth for 2-4 minutes.
Gotta be honest - I don't care about other people's time when I'm playing...I just play each match and move on to the next.
If the possibility of being hooked for 2 minutes or slugged for 4 or tunneled or...any other common game scenario is too difficult to deal with, there are lots of other games with more forgiving gameplay loops.
I'd actually would love to see the hatch open again after 1.5 minutes of EGC timer has passed. That way, with killer-sided gates, the killer has to be worried about the hatch, and in the case of survivor-sided gates, it doesnt really matter.
I also feel like with 2 survivors remaining, especially with the upcoming change that the final downed survivor gets mori'd, that hatch should open if 2 people are dead and 1 person slugged and not inside the Killer's Terror Radius. This gives the killer a risk of a survivor escaping if they leave the slug and forcing the EGC to start early and thus allow for things like Adrenaline to work. If the healthy survivor escapes through hatch, the game instantly ends in that scenario.
The survivor would be given the option to buy time for their teammate to find the hatch and escape, help them up, look for the hatch themselves and end the game, or wait for the killer to find the hatch to go for an exitgate.
The only potential problem I see there is that you'd have a chance of 2 survivors escaping through the hatch, but considering trying to turn a 1k into a 0k can easily turn into a 3k. This would be the equalivant of trying to turn a 3k into a 4k but being at risk of a 2k. I'd say those are fair odds.
Hatch should never ever be possible for more than one person unless all 5 gens are done.
"Reward survivors for getting beaten"
Yeah, no.
You're wrong regarding getting Adept at Iridescent grades. And I have all of the Adepts as well. You can get by without 4 Iridescent emblems and still double-pip at Gold or below, but NOT at Red Rank, making a slugging an unfortunate, but sometimes, necessity if you're there and want an Adept without waiting for Grade reset.
To get an Iridescent Devout Emblem, you need to get 10 points in the category while starting with 0 -- Gold only requires 8. You get 1 point for hooking everyone once, 1 point for when you get 9 hooks total. A sacrifice, a kill, or a DC all gives a player 2 points each (bleed out deaths receive 0). If you end up with a 3K, you'll get 6 points for the kills and the MAX you can get is 8 points, which means you won't get an Iridescent Emblem but a Gold Emblem -- and 4 Iridescent Emblems are necessary to double-pip at Red Ranks -- double-pipping requires 16 total Emblem points, 4 from each category, and a Gold Emblem gives you 3 points only, leaving you short at 15. Without a 4K, therefore, you won't get Adept unless you're at Gold Grade (where 8 points and a Gold Emblem in ANY one category -- will be enough to still allow you an Adept). The further down you're ranked, the more leeway you get (at Ash Grade, only 14 points are needed to double-pip, allowing you to even get a Silver Emblem and still get an Adept).
For the record, I'm not a fan of getting slugged forever when I play survivor -- I have no problem with being slugged if the last survivor's location is known, however, but at some point, if the last survivor stays that stealthy, it's aggravating to spend the entirety of the bleed out timer on the ground, but it's what it is. I don't have any issue with hatch, either as killer or survivor (and I give plenty of hatches out when I'm the former, and I don't expect the escape when I'm the latter).
BHVR said the win condition for killers is based off of kills, so the number of hooks is meaningless, and the entity’s feelings are meaningless.
well if you refuse to do your objectives, you already gave up basically. So you can die if you don't want to continue playing, sure. The game guide tells you to fix gens, power up the gates, escape. Help up your teammates when you can. You gave up? then you can die, sure.
It's pointless to blame the killer for wasting time. He will kill you, no problem. He's not wasting it.
Wow, its almost like a mechanic that rewards not doing anything special and just walking around with potential to find 1 more extra kill could be better designed. Killing the last one alive isnt dependent on only skill, its also dependent on luck. If you just tunneled because survivors have no comms, that has nothing to do with skill.
You are literally saying to remove the counterplay of a potential free kill, for a side that has already won.
But by your logic, we should also remove the ability to camp a hook during the EGC too. How is it fair that the killer can camp to get a potentially free kill when they already lost? Just let all survivors escape at that point, right?
If the killer can guarantee a 1k, survivors should be able to guarantee a 1e.
lmao. "Why is a killer able to get a 4K after dominating the match?"
who said it's 2-4 minutes. If the killer wants to, you will stay in the game, as long as he wants to keep you there, if you refuse to play. A slugged survivor can be picked up. a picked up survivor doesn't bleed out, he can just release him if he struggles, let him run a bit and still look for you again. Basically by not doing your own objectives, you will waste your own time, if the killer decides not to allow you a free escape.
Why is the killer able to get 1 kill after being dominated in the match?
Then the killer should never be able to kill anyone unless gens are still remaining. Rewarding killers for losing by camping. Yeah no.
Then go unhook them? Gigabrain moment.
The mental gymnastics in blaming a killer for playing in a legitimate manner but defending survivors for breaking game rules is amazing.
Except in that case, there is an extra survivor capable of doing gens. If you just release them, they will sit on gens and keep you busy. If you go for the other one, they will be hiding.
So you would be forced to keep grabbing them, or they will die. Giving the other survivor plenty of time to do other gens.
why would you use hatch except for situations when you can't do all 5 gens?
If all gens are done and there's more than one surv you should head to the gates.
DBD forum arguments be like:
"LMAO you have this opinion? LOL I'm putting it in caps because I'm laughing at your opinion!"
Well entity based it on both kills and hooks. Well if bhvr considers only kills to be win they should change then how entity feels. I have gotten entity hungers while 3-4K and it feels pretty ridicious I though I won but then depip...
It’s just a fun alternate mode of escape at that point. Letting multiple survivors escape when not all gens are done is literally rewarding failure.
Then go hook them? Gigabrain moment.
The mental gymnastics in excusing mechanics for a killer playing in super boring ways, when all the boring ways that survivors could play in have been removed even though they were playing in a legitimate manner, but defending killer mechanics because they are killer mechanics is amazing.
Face it, slugging hasnt been touched since 2016, this is the only reason why slugging for the 4k is even a possibility. If we would add comparable survivor mechanics from 2016 back, like old sabotage mechanics, you would be one of the first people to be crying about it.
Removing all the hooks at 2 minutes in the game? Totally legitimate manner of playing. Yet, it was removed. Why? Because slugging for kills and running perks to be able to reach the basement was extremely boring. With your logic, there is no reason for it to be removed. Just slug them or hook them in the basement. Dead Hard might aswell be reverted too. Totaly legitimate way of playing, super boring to face for a lot of killers that werent Nurse or Blight, but yknow, doesnt matter.
Maybe trying to excuse the only remaining mechanic when all other mechanics have been rebalanced isnt the hill you want to die on. Slugging will be looked into regardless of your bad arguments to try and keep it, I am just trying to speed up the process.
Probably best not to bring bannable offenses into a discussion about gameplay mechanics.
It’s hilarious you don’t realize the reason tunneling/camping/slugging hasn’t been addressed in any huge ways so far is because they’re extremely complicated to do without any given idea being abusable or gimmicky. Educate yourself, thanks.
I don’t care at all about the emblems or the entity anymore. BHVR says the win condition is killing, so killers should try to get as many kills as possible.
Hatch never rewarded failure. it was always meant to give a chance of survival, a reason to keep on playing the game.
Imagine if hatch didnt exist, and you are playing a game when someone DC's early or gets tunneled quickly. A game state where there are 3 surv left and 5 gens remaining. The game is pretty much doomed in 90% of scenarios, then what would survivors do at that point, knowing they have already lost? throw themselves to the killer?DC?