Slugging for the 4k
First off, I have been really glad with some of the changes made recently to make the game health a lot better. I still am of the opinion that there should be an advantage for killers to not tunnel, because in a lot of cases, tunneling early in the game is still worth the trouble, especially if the chase is relatively short(or a disadvantage for killing someone very early on, like buffing the remaining survivors untill at least 3 gens are finished). But all in all, happy with those changes.
However, slugging for a 4k in my eyes is still quite a glaring issue. 2 survivors are already dead, you are on the ground and the killer, with no additional information, starts searching the entire map just for that final survivor. And the final survivor? Well, they have no reason to help their teammate. That would give away their position, and the killer can return to the slugged survivor to simply slug them again. So you're forced to hide for up to 4 minutes if you want any chance of escaping.
This kills the gameflow and ruins games. And the worst part? There are some legitimate reasons for killers to do so:
- certain rift challenges(why sacrifice 8 survivors over 3 games when you can kill them in 2?)
- achievements(mainly adept)
- getting just that extra bit for a double pip
To survivors, there is no way of telling the difference between a killer slugging just to complete a challenge, and a killer slugging so a survivor doesnt have a chance at the hatch. It's quite a shame if a game lasts 12 minutes, only to be forced to spend 1/3rd of that match waiting for your teammate to bleed out because the killer refuses to hook.
Are there any plans in the works to address this specific scenario? Personally, I'd suggest making the difference between 3 kills and 4 kills much smaller Emblem-wise(or add a scoring feature when a survivor escapes through hatch), and then give a survivor the ability to opt-out of a match after being slugged for prolonged times(or the ability to pick themselves up, any reason to force the killer to pick them up and hook them or suffer the consequences).
Comments
Why can't they do the gens or the why can't the other survivor pick them up and continue the game? You can even finish a gen and pick them up if its close enough.
Run adrenalin or unbreakable which can save you in a pinch when this happens.
I've done it, seen others do it. Its only a stupid play if not done well, most killers will patrol looking for the last survivor. With a lil patience and common sense it is possible to pick up the other survivor.
If you choose to hide when a killer slugs for the 4k its hardly on the killer.
Its ok to hide in that scenario if you want, but if you do... the slugged survivor bleeding out is just as much on you as the killer.
4 mins isn't a bad timer, its long enough that you aren't likely to bleed out during the game if slugged multiple times, gives plenty of time for you to be picked up. If the timer was shorter I'd slug like a beast as you'd get everyone down and dead quicker than hooking them.
"Why can't they do the gens" One survivor cannot be expected to complete 2 or more gens in a 2v1 scenario. Even if the slugged survivor gets picked up or picks themselves up with UB, the game devolves into a very pointless cat & mouse until the killer has secured their 4k.
Slugged survivor gets picked up, killer comes back to the location where they were slugged, finds their scratch marks, slugs them again, and resumes their search for the last survivor. An injured survivor is much easier to find than a healthy survivor.
Adrenaline only activates when either all the gens are done or EGC is triggered via the hatch being closed. Unbreakable? Pointless. At best, you buy yourself time to earn some extra points. At worst, the killer finds you and slugs you again.
Being able voluntarily bleed out faster to move on to your next match sooner will discourage slugging for the 4k while taking absolutely nothing away from the killer. If the game has reached the point where only 2 survivors remain and the number of gens is equal to or more than 2, the killer has basically won.
The problem with being slugged for the 4k is that it's up to 4 minutes of doing absolutely nothing. When the game is already lost, the slugged survivor just wants to move on to their next match sooner.
On the first point how do you do that when you dont know what locker they are in? There are multiple lockers and they could be in one as far from both doors as possible leaving the killer stuck just walking back and forth between doors for 2 minutes.
Now to the second, you have now admitted that it is not about a QOL you moving on to the next match and are now using it as a strategy to help your teammate.
I will start with your final paragraph if the killer slugs for the 4k and you bleed out in the normal amount of time you're right the killer should not be compensated. In that situation it is the killers fault for not coming back and hooking you in time.
However if you change the parameter of the bleedout the killer cannot be blamed for not hooking you,and shouldnt be punished for not having the time to make it back. In this situation just dc and eat the penalty if you dont wanna wait. There is also however the possibility of them getting the other person and you getting hatch, or them making it back in time to hook you, the game isnt over till its over.
You're right that bleeding out faster is no different than giving up on hook which is why if you choose to do that the killer should be given the benefit of having hooked you if you get the benefit of giving up like you were hooked.
Slugging for the 4k to deny hatch is a completely reasonable thing for the killer to do, while it is an inconvenience, it gives the killer more time to complete their objective without having to deal with the 50/50 of the hatch, and having the opportunity to potentially catch the 4th survivor making an altruism play (it does happen), or some other mistake.
Basically it postpones the endgame giving the killer an advantage.
Now you asked about why i brought up exit gate regression. 99ing the exit gates is exactly the same as slugging for the 4k.
In both cases you are delaying the endgame in a way that you have the advantage.
In both cases you are using a strategy to optimize the result for your side.
If the exit gates regressed it would make going for those late game plays more difficult and fair, instead of unhooking and mass bodyblocking for essentially a free escape.
Now in response to this you may point out "well to get around that the killer can open the door and start the endgame" and that is a stupid arguement.
The only time you do that is if you are just giving up and dont care and even though you want the survivors to just leave they will sit at the gates and make you wait out the collapse or give them extra points.
I recently made a thread on this topic, probably my last. Wish you woulda been there, dropping these truth bombs.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/343233/when-will-we-stop-punishing-killers-for-ending-the-game-naturally/p1
The killer opens the exit gate? But then when he camps, they can just run out. They don't even have to take time to prep the gates. He'd be doing the survivors a favor.
well we could do it like this:
Killers have basekit NOED when the hatch opens, or endgame collapse starts. It would give them the incentive to not slug that much, and also would make it risky for survivors to stick around when an exit gate is open. And they would need to measure their choices more
Why is a game of cat and mouse pointless?
Try this next time, pop a gen away from the slugged survivor and then cautiously make you way back to them, then hide near them till the killer goes out on patrol again and one click pick ‘em up due to a near full recovery bar.
Then both stealth out.
Or just give up and whine because that seems way more fun than a pointless game of cat and mouse. Err…
My favourite part of your argument is “being able to auto bleed out will discourage killers from slugging for the 4K while taking nothing away” ah other than the ability to counter that hatch thus costing them the 4K.
The only reason the slugged survivor has to bleed out is because their teammate refuses to try and pick them up.
How about a mechanic where the hiding healthy survivor auto dies in 2 mins if they don’t try and pick up the slugged survivor. That way a lost game is brought to a faster close and you can move on without costing the survivors anything.
wait a minute that sounds just a silly as another suggestion I’ve heard… 🤔
Hiding in one place for too long gives them idle crows which prompts a loud noise notification. Moving from locker to locker is a waste of time when that time could be better spent trying to get the gate.
If one survivor is wasting their time hiding instead of trying to escape, it is as much a waste of their time as it is the killer's and they have no intention of leaving. Either they're trying to escape or they're hiding because they're just wasting time.
That's not even mentioning the amount of aura reading perks at the killer's disposal to help them find hiding survivors. If stealth were as viable an option as you seem to think it is, there wouldn't be a plethora of anti-stealth perks.
It is about QOL, and has nothing to do with helping the remaining survivor to get hatch. I am, however, against rewarding killers for engaging in what is widely considered to be unfun gameplay.
I actually don't like the existence of hatch and would prefer if it didn't exist. It encourages killers to slug for the 4k at the expense of the survivors fun. Yet its existence is a necessity to prevent the game being held hostage.
The killer should not be compensated if a survivor chooses to bleed out faster. You aren't compensated when a survivor bleeds out for 4 minutes because you failed to find the remaining survivor. Don't pretend like killers chasing that 4k care about making it back in time to hook their slug. If that were the case, people wouldn't be bled out - more often than not - while the killer searches for the remaining survivor.
The difference between 99ing the exit gates and slugging for the 4k is that the killer still has a chance to turn things around. The killer still gets to do everything they'd normally do. A slugged survivor has no such agency and effectively is unable to participate in meaningful gameplay.
Opening the exit gate as killer is done for more reasons than just giving up. A well-timed Blood Warden play can doom the survivors. The gate being open puts pressure on the survivors and opens them up to the risk of Blood Warden.
If survivors mass bodyblock to get someone out, then it was not, by any means, a free escape. It took each of them taking a risk in order to make it happen.
Survivors don't get free points, nor should killers. You want your hook states and emblem scores? Don't slug for the 4k. The sacrifice animation has to complete before hatch will spawn. Killer moves faster than survivors. The odds of the killer finding hatch are higher than the survivor finding hatch.
The only reason killers slug for the 4k is so they can have their guaranteed 4k because they don't want to risk getting a 3k. It's almost as though there's this mentality that anything less than a 4k is a loss, when the win paramaters are that the killer has won at 4k/3k, draw at 2k, loss at 1k/0k.
The counter to hatch is closing the hatch, or intercepting the survivor before they make it to hatch. Being able to bleed out faster takes absolutely nothing away from killers and provides a slugged survivor with agency that they otherwise would not have.
You, as the killer, are not losing any agency. The 2v1 is in complete control of the killer. But yes, popping a gen from 0% to 100% only to still have another gen left is definitely going to allow escape. It seems you missed the part where if there is more than one gen remaining and only 2 survivors, escape is nearly impossible.
You're assuming slugging for the 4k only happens when there is one gen left that's nearly complete. If that were the case, nothing would need to be done about it.
A basekit NOED that only activates when hatch is open would be relatively fair.
sure. hatch open or exit gate open, both provide an escape route. So survivors can risk to stay and try for a save, or escape, and killer can risk allowing it to open because he has a chance to down them. It would provide a risk reward scenario for both sides.
Loss of agency is part of survivor game play. It’s why you have team work. That’s how you counter loss of agency team work.
It’s more than possible to escape in the 2 left at more than 1 gen it requires some good map sense, crafty stealth play and a lot of gen tapping.
It’s hard because it’s a very lopsided scenario at that point but can be just as interesting and fun as a game full of chases.
The only reason it’s a complete loss scenario to you is you’ve already dismissed it as one and given up, making it a waste of your time.
Now that you’ve decided it’s a waste of your time the game should end on your terms, regardless of what anyone else might want from it.
Your solution to this is to punish your opponent by being able to prematurely end the game.
I don’t think there is much of a justification for this.
The only scenario where you could justify a death switch to hasten bleed out is if they are the last survivor alive and slugged. Kinda like the auto death for last hook.
Right because no survivor would hide cross map locker hopping out of spite to deny the killer a chance to kill them right, and i guess every killer has to bring iron maiden because thats the only perk that would help in that scenario.
Anti stealth perks huh? Im pretty sure there are anti slugging perks too.
Hey i know since we are using perks to solve the issue you should just run no mither and youd never be slugged again problem solved.
No killer likes hatch thats why we slug for the 4k. Killers lives would be much easier if we had to just defend doors. Hatch exists to give the last survivor a better chance at escaping. While killers move slightly faster and have a slightly better chance of finding hatch, it is still 100% a survivor sided feature that is of no benefit to killers.
While i cant speak for all killers, I can tell you that the only time i dont make it back to my slug is if I'm actively chasing the other survivor, or they have decided to hide. Stop pretending to know everyones motivation because you dont, and you cant, and it makes you sound pretty pretentious.
Nice to know your win conditions, but keep in mind those are YOUR idea of win conditions, which by the way the game scores are actually incorrect. I can get a 3k and still not pip. Heck slugging for the 4k is almost required when going for killer adept achievement because you have to double pip.
the hatch is a situational, alternative escape route. Technically it doesn't even exist as an option unless condition are met for it. A survivor planning for something that doesn't exist is his own fault. Some ideas or strategies can and may be denied. Especially if it becomes obvious that the survivor is counting on the hatch and not doing gens, or advancing the game by any means. The hatch not the main route to escape. It's a situational escape route, for which the conditions are NOT met if there are 2 survivors still in the game. So don't count on it.