can we buff other exhaustion perks or nerf DH?
there iss literally no reason to use nothing else than sprint burst or dead hard like balance landing WAS good but now its trash since we dont have the passive effect and i see no reason why ANYONE would run smashit... i mean overcome has tis place im tired of running dead hard becuase 30% of my downs i dont actiavte it since they are obviously to far away to hit me but surprise surprise servers think its a valid hit :)
and its just a super boring perk to run anyways i kinda get why BL doesnt have its passive and yet i dont there are literally maps where you CANT use it on like there isnt even a hill to activate it on... and maybe lower the passive to 30 40% instead it would be a better experience for killers and survivors to refresh the perks a little because now its pretty much the same 95% of all survivors you go against use dead hard the otehr 4.9% use no exhaustion perks and then we have those 0.1% who are SB chads
Comments
"I'm not basing my opinion on anything."
You literally have. "then nerfing it would require major buffs to all the exhaustion perks to make up for it or nerfing Killer speeds somehow" while referencing "You have to remember that kills/escapes are at 50%" as your reasoning. You literally gave an opinion based on their data.
"The developers have said they want the kill/escapes at roughly 50%. The developers have said they are happy where the kills/escapes currently are."
Which is why the game has issues in the first place with balance. This is flawed. We are trying to better balance their game.
"If a Dead Hard nerf changes that percentage, then the developers are going to buff other things in the survivor kits or nerf other things in the killer kits."
We are trying to have them realize why this isn't the case.
"All of your thoughts on balance needs to be constrained by what the developers are aiming for."
If that really is what you think we should be doing then this entire conversation is a complete waste of time since you're talking about trying to maintain a flawed state of balance. What's the point in nerfing DH if were just going to make other things problematic to compensate? Don't nerf DH? Okay then were still in the current bad state.
The goal isn't to work around their aims for balance because their aims are flawed. The goal is to rationalize with them into realizing what needs to be changed.
"Personally, I highly doubt Dead Hard is outperforming other exhaustion perks. I think Dead Hard is used a lot because it a much more fun perk for survivor-players and because it gets daily advertising from killer-players."
Top MMR players spam DH over other Exhaustion perks for a reason and it's not fun. They use it because it's most reliably the best option.
There are instances where DH for distance CAN be baited out. It isn’t my fault that you whiff too soon.
Not everyone who uses DH for distance is going to a pallet. Sometimes the survivor doesn’t have enough distance to make it to whatever destination (pallet, window) so they bait YOU to swing. So let’s be clear about that.
I would like to think that in order for a perk to be OP would mean that it cannot be baited out/countered AT ALL. Dead Hard isn’t that, certainly not with killers who know that they are doing. The ones who don’t should learn and adapt.
Also, Considering the direction of killers being released (the anti-loop) ones this perk of anything has become healthier for the game. Because it provides some sort of counter that a pallet would not give you.
Its not distance and i-frames. All other exhaustion perks, including Head-On, gives you at least a 30 meter distance gain. Dead Hard only gives you 2 meters distance.
As for SB, well, a skilled survivor could easily dodge the ranged killer.
The problem with DH is that it's too easy to use for it's reward. It's basically like pre-hex NOED. You just slapped it on together with old Unrelenting, and you could spam Lunge to gain distance on survivors after the final gen was done.
And I dont even know how to properly touch up DH. On one end, you want survivors to be able to use DH for unhooks and flashlight saves, meaning they would need to be able to use it at the press of a button. On another end, you want survivors to not use DH in a way that makes them use an unsafe pallet as if it were a safe pallet. I would extremely dislike the change if I couldnt use an exhaustion perk to rescue a teammate, but I would also dislike it if the pallet issue wasnt change.
I think the only way to fix DH is to give it a token system based on what killer it is. Unknown which token is used from the survivor perspective, but if its a Nurse, DH can stay the way it is now, 0 issues. If it's a Trapper, make DH use up traps so Trapper can follow suit. If it's a Myers, make DH refresh the personal stalk meter so that Myers can stalk more, etc.
what about killer slowdown perks? Take a perk like corrupt intervention. What exactly is pro and con to this perk? If your winning really hard, than you'll win even harder by equipping this perk that indirectly slows survivor's objective through blocked generators and If your concerned about losing generators in which survivors have to complete to open exit gate, than this perk will do masses. Your acting like killers do not have high impact perks that consistently provide adequate value that are not auto-includes in like every killer build.
The reason why survivor utilize exhaustion perks as auto-includes is because of how extending chases is best form generator progress in the game. An exhaustion perk that extends a chase for say 25 extra seconds is 25 seconds of added progression to potential 3 generators on the map. Apart from second chance health-state type perks like Decisive strike and Borrow time, No other perks disrupt the killer's time efficiency as much these type of perks.
I think OP post is mostly saying that the other exhaustion perks are too situational and do not provide enough consistent high-value to be used if dead hard was weakened.
"Which is why the game has issues in the first place with balance. This is flawed. We are trying to better balance their game."
The issue is that your balancing perks that do not need balancing in first place. The good survivor perks and good killer perks are about as impactful as each other. I would say that most of the modern killer problems weak base-kit powers + not impactful enough add-ons and safe pallet loop design.
"what about killer slowdown perks? Take a perk like corrupt intervention. What exactly is pro and con to this perk?"
That's actually a very easy one. The con is that it is literally gone after a set amount of time and the survivors can simply wait it out to where you just wasted a perk slot. That isn't a rarity against good survivors. Also, some perks simply have an effect that isn't strong enough to warrant a con, that's the balance. You need a con when the effect is impactful enough to warrant a downside. I'd argue CI isn't even that good for example, it's just ran because it's the only early game slow down option killers have which gets it defaulted. That isn't because of how good it is though, there's just nothing else.
"Your acting like killers do not have high impact perks that consistently provide adequate value that are not auto-includes in like every killer build."
Most killer perks aren't auto include. Hence why you see at least some variety in the killer meta compared to the survivor one. Literally all of the killer meta perks have some variety of cons be that downsides, skill requirements, situational use ect attached to them. The same can't be said for a lot of the survivor meta perks.
Also, the power level of meta killer perks to meta survivor perks are not on the same level. That matters in the context of what we're talking about.
"The reason why survivor utilize exhaustion perks as auto-includes is because of how extending chases is best form generator progress in the game. An exhaustion perk that extends a chase for say 25 extra seconds is 25 seconds of added progression to potential 3 generators on the map. Apart from second chance health-state type perks like Decisive strike and Borrow time, No other perks disrupt the killer's time efficiency as much these type of perks."
Yes, they have a ridiculous level of impact on the outcome of the match with nearly zero costs, downsides, requirements ect. If their impact was lower it wouldn't matter if they had a downside, but for how significant their impact is they warrant something worth consideration. Currently there is no consideration.
"I think OP post is mostly saying that the other exhaustion perks are too situational and do not provide enough consistent high-value to be used if dead hard was weakened."
My point is that they should be that situational. BL or Head On are how situational Exhaustion perks should be to warrant how impactful they are. If you don't want the other Exhaustion perks to be more situational then their impact on the match needs to be toned down significantly.
I also think "do not provide enough consistent high-value to be used if dead hard was weakened." is a seriously hard stretch. If DH disappeared today every single survivor would have Lithe or SB equipped. I hardly think anyone at a serious level in this game would argue with that.
"The issue is that your balancing perks that do not need balancing in first place. The good survivor perks and good killer perks are about as impactful as each other. "
I completely disagree with you. The good survivor perks and the good killer perks are on entirely different levels. Most the survivor meta perks need toning down significantly. The reason you rarely see the survivor meta change is because their meta perks are already so over tuned that for another perk to make it into the meta it has to also be over tuned.
"I would say that most of the modern killer problems weak base-kit powers + not impactful enough add-ons and safe pallet loop design."
This is the only place I agree with you. The primary problem with the games balance is weak killers and very poor map design/pallet setup. I would put this as the biggest issue in the game over everything else regardless of our other topics. I would hypothetically see less issue with the perks if these issues were fixed. However, realistically that just isn't happening, so I'm basing this off more realistic/easier changes the devs would actually consider seeing as map fixes aren't happening and the killer reworks have been pretty negligible overall.
I have to disagree with this. Shelter Woods is the only place you cannot use BL except for basement but there isn't a use for that in chase.
You can use it at the tree, there's a drop off.
So, your only counter-argument is "Bait it out".
Good to know discussing balance with you is worthless
Says the person who claims something is OP because he doesn't like it.
You fit right in these forums.
I've yet so see a reason as to why it isn't that actually makes sense.
One of the counter-argument I've seen was "Bait it out", which doesn't apply to using Dead Hard for distance.
Another one I've seen was "Dead Hard doesn't give as much distance as other Exhaustion Perks, like Sprint Burst", which is true, Dead Hard gives less distance, but it depends when Exhaustion Perks are used.
Dead Hard is the only Exhaustion Perk that can reliably extend chases after the Killer already put in time into the chase, which is stronger than either denying chase, or ending the chase before the Killer got their first hit.
It's the same reason I think Overcome is better than Sprint Burst but worse than Dead Hard. It activates after the chase already started, but ends it immediately after activating.
Dead Hard activates in a moment of vulnerability from the Survivor side, most of the time when they wouldn't have gotten to a Pallet or Window, and gives them the slight amount of edge that helps them make it, but is also a small enough amount of distance that ending a chase for wouldn't be worth it
Are we just... going to ignore this whole post because it contains arguments you don't like and can't find a logical counter-statement?
Comparing it to other perks does not make it OP.
You wrote that entire paragraph and it shows nothing about why you think it is OP. All I see if comparison to other exhaustion perks, even though they are suppose to be different and strong in their own way. At this point you are comparing Apples to Oranges.
Keep trying though. I am sure the more you complain about DH the more it will stick.
I mean, the comparison shows that it's op.
It's the only Perk in the game that allows the Survivor to reliably 1v1 the Killer, which wastes a huge amount of time and can lose games if multiple Survivors use it
You can't deal with DH.
It's problem is when it is used to extend a chase by dashing to a pallet or vault. This is uncounterable.
If someone is caught out in the open and you wait for them to DH before the swing that's not you countering them. You would get them even if you missed. That's them being caught out in the open.
If you think DH is counterable I seriously question your overall skill as a gamer.
"Comparing it to other perks does not make it OP".
What should we compare it to then? How is the power level of any perk supposed to be measured if we do not compare them to..... the other perks?
There is a litany of reasons why DH is better than the other exhaustion perks. Sure some might be better in very specific situations but for the overwhelming majority of situations DH is simply better.
SB gives 4.2m in a chase. Over 3 seconds.
DH gives 3.8m in a chase. Instantly.
SB gives no iFrames.
DH gives iFrames.
SB maintains collision as the killer swings.
DH removes collision as the killer swings.
SB is used automatically if the survivor isn't exhausted.
DH is used whenever the player wants.
One of these perks completely outclasses the other. Which one do you think it is?
Or you could just keep ignoring the evidence and advocating for DH in it's current state. I'm sure the more you make up faulty reasons the more it will stick.
"The con is that it is literally gone after a set amount of time and the survivors can simply wait it out to where you just wasted a perk slot."
That is not a con because the perk is extending the game. Its doing exact intended effect from the moment the killer player equipped the perk. Even if hiding out was supposedly a con to this perk, The con is super easy to mitigate through information perks. It is not the only early game perk, Lethal pursuer is another early game perk yet its nowhere near used as much as CI.
In general, I would say that the vast majority of killers do use some sort of generator delay perks because they're extremely consistent and the time that they provide extra to the killer is invaluable. I am not sure if to call them meta persay but they're used about as much as exhaustion perks and other forms of second chance perks.
"Most killer perks aren't auto include. Hence why you see at least some variety in the killer meta compared to the survivor one"
The reason why killers have more perk variety is because most killers do not play identically the same as one another. Even with difference between each killer, generator delay perks are pretty close to auto-includes perks for killers.
With survivor, every single survivor plays completely identical to each other. There is not a single difference between any of them. As a result, there exists a single optimal load out for them with very little in-between.
"My point is that they should be that situational."
A perk that situational i.e does not activate/has no effect on the match might as well be an empty perk slot. your essentially asking survivors to run empty perk slots. Take your balance landing or head-on example, If balance landing or head-on were good perks, they would see play-rate. The reason why they are not used is because they end up being empty perks far too often because they are way too situational as perks.
"If DH disappeared today every single survivor would have Lithe or SB equipped.
Correct, because those perks are not empty perk slots. They are still more situational than dead hard though.
"I completely disagree with you. The good survivor perks and the good killer perks are on entirely different levels."
You can take a survivor sided map like badham, I am fairely certain that even if the survivor was playing no add-ons and no perks, they would probably trash like 70% of the killer cast fairely consistently. I am pretty certain it is mostly similar for large % of the maps. The only time survivors would be losing with no perks and no add-ons is when they play against stronger killers because that is where they need their perks. This is also applies to more balanced maps as weaker loop design allows weaker killers to win chase. Both of these reinforce my last point that the problem is in the killer powers and safe pallet design.
"the killer reworks have been pretty negligible overall."
In light of negative changes, I'd say they are moving backwards faster than forwards. In other words I am pretty sure most of the killers are going to be pretty weak for long time.
I thought they patched that out recently.
Still there last I checked.
Oh. That's neat. Finally BL can be used on every map
So why is it that survivors are still going down even after using it for distance to a pallet or vault? Because they are bad?
Do you know that you HAVE to have the proper distance AND also the right position to use it?
Also, as I’ve already said survivors aren’t using DH at every pallet or vault. Often times they are found in bad areas, such as dead zones which renders DH completely useless, and where other perks like SB have more functionality.
So when I say stop comparing perks to “argue” that DH is OP that is what I mean. You are comparing Apples to Oranges to state your case. SB, Lithe, BL have an advantage over Dead Hard and render the killer impossible to catch… so should we be advocating that they are OP too?
The fact that you think that waiting out DH isn’t a counter says it all. Because you wanna be able to land every swing sounds like you are just entitled and want a down every time. Sorry but that is not how the game is suppose to work nor it should.
Both.
Dead Hard should NOT be an Exhaustion perk. Plain and simple.
Exhaustion perks punctuate chases. Dead Hard does not punctuate chases, plain and simple.
Exhaustion perks are contextual and require setup. Dead Hard does not require setup and is always useful.
Exhaustion perks are highly specific in application. Dead Hard has utility in every encounter.
Other Exhaustion perks can probably see a tiny buff, I wouldn't mind.
However, just make it so that Dead Hard is not among them - and has different drawbacks to consider other than the laughable exhaustion effect.
Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing, Lithe, Overcome, Smash Hit - these are specialty tools with oblong shapes and custom tooled tips designed to apply to niche jobs.
Dead Hard is the swiss army knife with a hammer, little magnifying glass, and a tiny gun too. It does everything.
The specialty tool and the multitool should have different drawbacks to their application. Trying to make them share a cost clearly and frankly does NOT work.
if you think using dead hard for distance is op you're gonna uninstall when you find out smash hit, sprint burst, lithe and balanced landing exists they give u 4 5 times the amount of distance...
the only thing i would change with deadhard is that it doesnt give you i frames but on the other hand that would make it useless since all other perks gives u 4x the distance
and overcome better than sprintburst... i dont agree chainsaw killers can completely counter overcome and you have to be injured meaing plague and legion counters it pretty damn well too...
I think you're forgetting the downside to DH being you have to be injured to use it......
My favorite exhaustion perk is actually Lithe and I will run it over Dead and garbage Sprint burst any day
Ah, I love when someone ignores my whole post, explaining how the distance from Dead Hard is different from any other Exhaustion Perk.
I mean, Killers with an instadown somewhat "counter" Dead Hard, so it's not that big of a deal.
Yes, Plague counters Overcome, and Dead Hard too, so yet again, not that big of a draw back
"it's problem is when it is used to extend a chase by dashing o a pallet or vault. This is uncounterable" well so is ALL OTHER EXHAUSTION PERKS besides head on
"if you think DH is counterable i seriously question your overall skill as a gamer"
it is counterable now the i frames is unnecessary in my opinion but you can bait it out with most killers isnt it weird how otz, d3ad and basically everyone else can pretty reliably bait out dead hard besides you? if your pyramid head you can press m2 quick, flick your camera if you walk close enoughyou can press m1 and its almost impossible to react its a guessing game...
i replied to everything in ur post but ok
besides the thing u said about "Dead Hard activates in a moment of vulnerability from the Survivor side, most of the time when they wouldn't have gotten to a Pallet or Window, and gives them the slight amount of edge that helps them make it, but is also a small enough amount of distance that ending a chase for wouldn't be worth it" becuase sprint burst can be used in that way too...
if you think using dead hard for distance is op you're gonna uninstall when you find out smash hit, sprint burst, lithe and balanced landing exists they give u 4 5 times the amount of distance...
Another one I've seen was "Dead Hard doesn't give as much distance as other Exhaustion Perks, like Sprint Burst", which is true, Dead Hard gives less distance, but it depends when Exhaustion Perks are used.
Dead Hard is the only Exhaustion Perk that can reliably extend chases after the Killer already put in time into the chase, which is stronger than either denying chase, or ending the chase before the Killer got their first hit.
I can't tell if you're trolling or you can't read
Yea I didn't really.....what is injured state anymore in DbD.....people can heal back so fast that's just a moot point.
Yes, that is the problem.
SB, Lithe, Balanced, all have specific conditions to be able to use to dash to the safe zone. Dead Hard is press E.
Again, it's possible to counter DH out in the open. In fact, that survivor is probably dead anyway even with DH. Just like how the other exhaustion perks won't help you in the open.
The problem is that it's an instant 3.8m of distance activatable on command.
noed is a mediocre perk with miles more counterplay than DH will ever have