Otzdarva Shares Opinion On Onryo: 'Below Average, C Tier'.
Thoughts?
Weirdly, that's exactly where I put her. Low to mid C tier, below Wraith.
She doesn't need a lullaby, for starters - and survivors need more of a reason to handle tapes/TVs.
Thoughts?
Weirdly, that's exactly where I put her. Low to mid C tier, below Wraith.
She doesn't need a lullaby, for starters - and survivors need more of a reason to handle tapes/TVs.
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Comments
i think you should get your condemnation level reduced only if another survivor takes your tape from the tv
Hmm. No, I disagree.
Firstly, 'x pro player can succeed with x killer' isn't really proof of that killer being fine. Otz did 50 wins on pre-rework Clown and Trapper without addons. I mentioned Tru3 because he's a good demonstration of Wraith's toolkit being used as an antiloop.
Secondly, let me describe the basic counterplay to both killers, as I think that illustrates my point.
I'm watching Dowsey now. The guy is good, but all he's doing is outplaying people with an M1 killer. He'd be playing very similarly on Trapper for instance.
I couls be wrong, but to my understanding, he always thought she was not that strong.
condemn gives little reason to be an issue, so Sadako just becomes a weaker freddy if no survivor get condemned.
Because people should form their own opinions by playing the killer themselves instead of thinking everything a streamer says it's a fact and shouldn't be debated.
Arguments from authority should be avoided.
However, when a very balanced, very neutral and extremely experienced player who essentially dissects this game for a living says that something is underpowered, they probably aren't wrong.
Just because someone plays the game for a living doesn't mean everything they say it's correct.
5,287 on record here, I have more hours than some streamers who play DBD for a living.
It's much more engaging to debate if a killer is overpowered/underpowered than listening to someone and be a sheep and having no formed opinion on your own.
I think shes low C or high D tier. Genuinely weak. The condemned mechanic is neither threatening nor a game delay. I've had survivor games where I never use a tape.
I don't think a killer can have zero chase power for both health states. It's one thing for Legion to get a free first hit and then nothing after. Sadako has nothing, period. Intermittent visibility is not a chase tool in high level play. She struggles against survivors who drop pallets
Yes, I'm agreeing with you - partially. But I'm also saying that when someone who has the experience and knowledge to be right in most cases (which I think does apply to Otz) then they are likely to be right in other cases.
Their word isn't gospel, but it does carry weight.
And I've also debated her toolkit in this thread, specifically.
Trapper doesn’t teleport and get survivors confused with invisibility, so it’s more than just that.
Also exactly how is “running directly through Sadako” preventing her from being close enough to hit you?
Finally I never said she’s “good because pro player is good with her”, I said she’s overall better than Wraith in a chase because of how her Demanifesting works compared to his Decloaking and said that Dowsey seems to be someone who is playing her correctly as an example.
In chase? It's not far off. Watching a few Dowsey games now, unless there's a TV in a very good location he's basically just playing an M1 killer. His manifest/demanifest stuff feels more like a reflex - it doesn't really seem to do much in chase unless he's using specific addons.
How dare you? This is blasphemy! Why should we use our own brains when smarter famous streamers will do it for us?
I think the Invisibility in chase effect is subtle, it would be hard to distinguish at a glance when a survivor misplayed because they legitimately couldn’t see which say she went versus simply wasn’t paying attention. To really tell you’d probably want to do a more statistical look at his chases with Sadako versus with, say, Trapper and see how often the mind games work on both to tell the boost she gets from it versus having no ability.
P.S. personally I think Sadako is better than Wraith but not by a huge margin, so we’re not probably all that far apart in where we’d rank them both. My guess is Wraith is 2 out of 5 stars as a killer, and Sadako is 2 1/2 to 3 stars.
I think he's wrong. From what I've played of her, I've done very well, and I've managed to get moris pretty consistently. Condemn is only non-threatening if you don't apply pressure properly. She's a very solid killer with a lot going for her.
I agree.
I honestly think people are just playing her wrong. She has an insane amount of map pressure.
I had a player yesterday that was chasing me one second and the next downing someone on the other side of the map.
She basically has something that other M1 killers don’t.
Elaborate?
Hmm. Yeah, I'm not seeing how she is better than Wraith. Wraith has more map presence, more mindgame ability, more reliable mobility, more reliable stealth. I'm actually struggling to think of any area where she outclasses Wraith - maybe her traversal is slightly better on enormous maps, but that's going to be close due to the fact that his is less prone to RNG uselessness.
And Wraith isn't a good killer, at all.
I'm not sure I'll do a statistical analysis, but I'm watching Otz play her now and contrasting his Trapper chases while in loop, and they are very, very similar. Trapper can occasionally use/fake a trap mid chase for mindgames and she can occasionally get lucky and have RNG give her a TV to use mid chase (and have the survivor not anticipate the teleport) but broadly they are just bog-standard M1 killers.
Mm. I'm not seeing it.
Maybe there's some wrinkle in her kit that nobody has discovered yet, at best making her B tier (I doubt it), but while she can occasionally pressure people far away with teleports:
Who would have thought that a killer with 0 chase potential would be C tier? What a surprise..
Teleporting around the map isn't useful if survivors hear your coming out of the TV a mile away and just run away. Let alone sprint burst, spine chill, etc. Survivors can just run and be safe, in a chase her "flicker" does nothing.
That sounds like a good reason to save money on this chapter. Especially considering the stronger licensed killers available like PH, Neme, Ceno, Bubba and Demopup (r.i.p.)
Mm. I said something to this effect in my Steam review. Basically - if you want a sneaky killer, Ghostface is a better investment. If you want a Japanese themed 'ghost' killer, Spirit is a better investment. Or just play Wraith.
As things stand, the only thing she has on her side is novelty and being iconic. I'll bet that in a month you'll see her about as often as you see Twins, if the developers don't give her some serious attention.
I don’t see how Wraith has more mindgamability in a chase. He’s literally completely visible while Decloaked. It’s not even clear he’s harder to spot coming up on people before a chase starts because he’s taller than Sadako and still visible. I think her stealth is actually better.
Watch Tru3 play her, or even Otz these days.
Basically, they try to do one of two things.
On the other hand, watching Otz and Dowsey play her, going into demat in chases feels like more of a reflex than something that's having an effect. Survivors don't seem to path differently at all, they're treating her as if they are fully visible. Most hits are at switchbacks or vaults, same as any other M1 killer - the survivors aren't making unusual mistakes for the most part (and when they do, it looks like it's more due to her size causing them to underestimate the range on her lunge).
The height is both a blessing and a curse - she's harder to see, but she also can't see over a lot of things. It comes out at a wash.
Stealth...I'm not sure how. Wraith has a slowdown while emerging, but a dash after (and can bodyblock). Sadako has no slowdown, but can be pathed through and no dash (pretty even, probably leaning slightly towards Wraith).
Wraith's is more reliable even factoring in the shimmer, because it's a true undetectable (Sadako has a silly lullaby that gives her proximity away) and gives him enormous speed on demand.
Her phasing is about all she has, and it's pretty unreliable. Without addons, it's not hard for me to tell exactly where she is and what she's doing, maybe 4 times in 5. The fifth time I can mostly attribute to my own mistakes.
Her teleports are her other big selling point, but the TV spawn logic is so RNG that it can be entirely useless.
I'm reserving judgment until I have the information perks I have on her but, so far, she feels, in my opinion, a bit better than Wraith or Freddy but still on the weak side overall.
I like her chase and teleport a little bit more than Wraith and Freddy but not a lot more.
Her Condemned power feels like it's a non-factor both playing as and against her. The best way to avoid it seems to be just ignore the TVs. When she teleports through it she's visible and has a sound effect so as soon as I hear it, when playing survivor, I just start running to a tile. As soon as she gives up chase or moves somewhere else I run back to the gen. So far, I haven't had to touch a tape at all.
The shorter time to Manifest from PTB feels smooth and is a good first step. I think she'd be unplayable with the PTB Manifest time.
She's spooky so I really like that but, so far, she doesn't feel threatening.
It's too soon to say as people are still getting strategies as or against her but, so far, I'm leaning to her Condemned mechanic needs a buff (such as maybe a slow passive build-up irregardless of holding a tape or within the vincinity of a TV so survivors have to touch a VHS tape at least once during a match).
Hag exists lol
Hard disagree on the freddy teleport, the only thing her teleport does better is potentially snuff a boon totem IF you know where it is. Freddys teleport takes you to gens, which is hwere you need to be, if the gen is completed you no longer should be spending time in that area. On top of that she has a lengthy animation after doing a teleport where she doesn't move instead of being able to move instantly like freddy. Yes she doesn't have to channel it like freddy but freddy does not slow down when he channels it and also can cancel it and that can be used to your advantage as a result, such as to fake it. Her teleport audio is also much louder than the blood splash of freddys teleport making it much harder to use in chase.
You're off on a few things:
1) Freddy can cancel his though
2) If you're teleporting to survivors who aren't on gens, you are going to lose. You're an m1 killer. Not the nurse. You can't just win off raw chases against remotely decent survivors
3) In the CoH meta the only benefit you get off of sadakos back to back teleports is checking a generator to see if its being worked before quickly going elsewhere. If you are teleporting often you will lose because you are either not getting chases or you are dropping your chases to go elsewhere which is lose by default if CoH is in play. Additionally each TV has a much higher cooldown than an individual teleport, While having map presense everywhere sounds good. Its much stronger to be better at defending a hot spot. Map presensce everywhere means dealing with pallets everywhere and never getting deadzones. You are an m1 killer. You will lose if that happens
I played a couple of games as survivor against her, since I didn't buy her, and I have to say:
Why is her condemn mechanic so weak? I barely had to care about it in the games I played.
I mean I agree, but at the same time Otz's opinions aren't law and he has plenty of suspect and bizarre tier placements such as considering Freddy one of the worst killers, and seeming to always believe Legion is upper C to mid tier despite no one else on Earth feeling that way.
Also one of the issue with condemn is that you have to go to a survivor and win a chase against them once their are condemned, and they can also remove said condemn. A survivor can get condemned and then run off and clear it if you don't go over there and win a chase immediately. I've already had survivors flat out intentionally get condemned because they 1. Figured I'd want to try and get the kill and 2. Figured they could waste a lot of my time looping me if I got tunnel visioned into "I MUST GET THIS DOWN FOR THE MORI" while gens pop around me. And if you don't go for the mori immediately, you lose the chance entirely. If you compare this to say, Pig traps, Pig doesn't need to do anything. If the trap goes off, you die. She doesn't need to walk on over and down you. Condemn rarely ever happens and even on the rare case it does, it still doesn't mean you're going to get a kill from it unless you decide that it's worth it to drop everything and solely focus on chasing one guy regardless of how long it takes. So it rarely activates and even when it does, it's still not a guarantee it'll do anything at all.
I think she's at the very most on a lower B or high C. She does have legitimate strengths but her whole issue really boils down to the abudance of medkits, healing perks and CoH. Taking advantage of the tvs and teleporting around a lot really does work on her because of how unpredictable you are but you need the perks back it up. Stuff like Sloppy helps but I'd say she's definitely perk dependant.
Sadako is designed to be a hit and run killer. She would be good with that if there wasnt one thing that behaviour completely forgot about when they made her like this.... COH!
I'd love to play her like she's designed. Attack teleport find someone else attack teleport you know but you do this you hear boons going left and right and everyones healed.
Behaviour if you want to make hit and run playstyle valid again you need to do something about CoH or boons in general.
Also one thing you could do to Sadako is to make people being exposed if they have max stacks of condemn. It happens so rarely why not make it high risk. Ive had chases where i run after someone who has max condemn stacks, i hit them once and they run to their tv and poof 1 second the moriable effect is gone. If survivors miss manage the stacks they should be punished for it..now it feels really really weak.
edit: typos
Freddy is nothing more than M1 killer with weak anti-loop and a teleport, he is surely one of worst killers akin to legion.
She's the most polarizing killer since Trickster. Her design is garbage. She can only ever be overpowered or underpowered. So where to put her on the tier list? Who knows?
Sorry, I can't take opinions like that very seriously, but anyone is welcome to have it. I just find it so wrong that I don't even care to bother arguing it.
She's an awful killer. No debate.
And then you get survivors that turn your tv's off... Now you get to walk there.
I think she's fun to play against for sure. Her phasing mechanic is really fun during chase because it makes her mind gaming strong. Feels a bit like playing against spirit.
I do think she is a bit weak. But at the same time, I've played against some that have started to put together some pretty nifty tactics that have steamrolled some of the solo Q games I've been in. I've noticed that Devour Hope is really common to run on her(i'm assuming because of the teleport). The problem there though is that eventually survivors will catch on and watch out for totems after first hook. It will still probably be super effective against solo Q, but SWF would smash it out pretty quick.
Another thing I've seen them do is(I don't want to say "abuse" , but kinda) the teleporting TV mechanic to build up condemn super quickly and keep pressure on gens, pretty much forcing people to grab tapes and have to drop them off quickly. I've also seen them use this during chase, just injure the survivor and zone them near tvs, teleport then down them and mori immediately taking someone out of the game in the first few minutes.
I think people are still figuring out how to play her. One thing I like though is that she is far more popular than when The Artist released. I think this really speaks to how boring the artist actually is. Even though she's easily A tier, people just don't like playing her. Honestly, I hate playing against her.
I think we need to wait a little bit for people to get the grasp of her using different builds and tactics then make tweaks from there. I can say for certain though that I thoroughly enjoy her chases.
I find her to be rather similar to MoM, Trickster and Legion, actually. Not quite in the same tier, but still in the category of "extremely powerful effect".
Allow me to explain. Trickster, Legion and MoM all offer very powerful (or potentially powerful) abilities. Being able to Mori someone without hooking them once is exceedingly powerful and as such, must be balanced appropriately. I feel that this puts Sadako in a very tricky spot balance-wise. She is undeniably weak, but I don't think we'll see any changes to Condemned due to the above reasons.
I'd rather they give her something to help in chase. She's horrid in chase, better than maybe Legion.
Condemned is basically a joke mechanic unless you run Telephone + Ring Drawing and even then ring drawing is mostly countered just by using COH since it's just you self cared
She is an m1 killer. M1 killer rely on survivor looping mistakes.
"As things stand, the only thing she has on her side is novelty and being iconic. I'll bet that in a month you'll see her about as often as you see Twins, if the developers don't give her some serious attention."
Sounds like a large majority of killers. She is just following Status quo. People play her a bunch. unlock her perks, realize she sucks, go back to their mains.
If condemnation had a timer where eventually survivors would be fully condemned once Sadako has inflicted condemnation on them, it wouldn't be so bad. The problem is there's no urgency to it. Majority of the build is up to the survivors interacting with tvs to gain it. And as we've seen since Plague's chapters. If survivors can completely deny a killer's power they will.
Now Pig has issues and she's still a weak killer, but she has pretty effective slowdown rng pending since survivors can't just do gens first and then deal with the trap on their head without the real possibility of dying to the trap.
A) Stealth Killer with a lullaby (what were they smoking?)
B) Tvs can be turned off (power = toilet).
C) No chase or loop power (for real).
D) Condemned.... (less than useless. Most pointless gimmick in all DBD).
Believe it or not, most of other m1 killers have much better power.
So I can't take opinions like that very seriously, but anyone is welcome to have it.
I just find it so wrong that I don't even care to bother arguing it.
She should get fixed.