Smartface Bubba doesnt need to be removed
There is nothing wrong with smartface as a cosmetic. Yes, some people use it as an additional way to target POC players, streamers, and survivors, but thats only because they GIVE the power to the cosmetic. Calling it "blackface bubba" is giving it power that it doesnt have without these complaints. Even if it gets removed, what does that solve? does that make all racist players quit? No. If people want to be racist in a game they will.
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I think the first change is likely the best. There's no reason for such heavy shading underneath the mask.
I don't see the changing of the cosmetic affecting the rate at which POC streamers are being harassed. If anything, it will likely make it worse for a time, then it will return to it's normal levels. I simply don't see the point for something that will not have a net gain.
Damn honestly after 1300~ hours in DbD it's the first time i hear thats even a thing. Im using the smartface mask on my Bubba aswell. I never really put any thoughts into that. That mask just stands out the most for me compared to the others. I mean it's just a cosmetic. But i guess now some endgame chats where i got accused of being a racist make much more sense to me. I don't care about skin color. If someone is cocky and trys to bm me the whole game and i had a bad day i might gonna face camp this person regardless of his race.
It's sad that we still need to deal with stuff like this. It really is. And sometimes they seem to do it super obvious like in that Karen/Edgar clip. But also it's sad that alot of people jump to conclusions and make assumptions really fast. Just like a TTV who gets found in a locker and be like "Nah BS! Killer must be stream sniping!" (I know this is not the same i just try to prove a point". It's not always how it seems. A as.shole is not always a racist as.shole.
Thanks for replying.
Np!
Good debate. Thanks for engaging. The below isn't directed at you. Just my conclusion based on general observations on this thread.
I do find it interesting that on both sides, the larger volume of "anger" seems to come from the side of those wanting it to stay. I am forced to conclude that if we were debating the removal of any other cosmetic, there would be nowhere near this level of pushback, anger or stubbornness.
Disappointment from some sure, But I can't help but feel the level of anger from those wanting it to stay is rather disproportionate to the impact of it being removed. Which concerns me.
I see, I'll try my best to not shoot the messenger then.
I simply do not see the point if removing it does nothing to actually prevent people from targeting POC. Perhaps I'm being too logical and am not considering the emotional aspect of it.
This is the whole crux of the debate to me.
It's not about stopping people being racist (and definitely not about accusing people who use it of being), because it's removal won't do that.
It is about whether the understandable emotional hurt it can cause, and seems to have caused, because of the historical context of blackface (yes I know Bubba isn't racist blah blah) and the insensitivity of it, warrants it's removal. I'm starting to lean that way, as I'm struggling to understand why anyone would fight so passionately against removing, given what has been outlined.
If I weren't afraid of my own race being drawn into it, I'd say that people fight against it based on the principle.
Thats what I think I don't understand. People asking for it to be removed it seems are doing so to avoid being hurt and reminded of pretty distasteful part of history (and present), and even perhaps their own experiencesof discrimination. I am not having a go at those wanting it to stay. I'm saying I don't understand what principle would override that, given we are taking about a video game cosmetic
If I were to hazard a guess, I would say it's the principle of not removing something that isn't really causing issues for the vast majority of players AND because removing it isn't going to actually help them in any way.
It would just be removing it because "they" said to remove it. Plus, I don't even think it actually counts, considering the literal definition of blackface.
That's personally what makes me uncomfortable as an argument. "The majority think its fine, so who cares about the minority it upsets or offends". That's not a society or opinion that sits well with me, especially when its over a video game cosmetic (and not something more serious).
And if it is upsetting to anyone I fully understand the context of why. Therefore if it was removed it would absolutely help, in that it would stop those feelings and show a bit of sensitivity.
I'm not getting into the debate of what is and isn't technically blackface, because that's irrelevant if it causes (understandably), the same level of upset.
Not having a go, don't misunderstand. Just my opinion.
The fact people are even arguing is ridiculous.
"This has caused me harm"
"Ok, but it doesn't cause ME harm therefore it is fine"
It's a stupid skin which would cause 0 harm for it to be removed, whereas with it still in the game it is still being used to target black people.
Do you think that removing it will decrease the amount POC are targeted by...unsavory members of the community?
It does matter if it is or isn't.
But I'm really not interested in participating in something so charged.
The fact that the majority of PoC people I know see it as literal black face I don't see any reason to keep it than to appease some folk who want to fight some useless skin that is better off forgotten about.
It's crazy to me how you can have dozens and dozens of PoC telling you this is wrong and you still have to argue because you just don't understand.
What an embarrassment this community is.
How many times do we need to sya that taking away this tool makes them have to stop or become explicit about it, one of which decreases racist activity and one of which increases clear racist activity leading to a large number of bans leading to decreased racist activity.
If people perceive it so, I'm not going to invalidate their feelings and experiences by waving a dictionary in their face.
I think we clearly disagree here. Happy to keep this civil and end it now.
Appreciate the debate.
Lore-wise Bubba just does that, the only racism is caused from the intent that players have, and lingering stigma.
Design-wise I can't understand what people are talking about with Bubba being black, the mask is a full-covering front and back (you can tell since his ears are covered by skin).
Topic-wise it acts as a catalyst for discussion about racism.
Troll-wise you'll just have people using Caleb to role-play as a slave hunter if it gets removed.
Overall while it's #########, you can at least point to it as "Why are you using blackface huh? Don't you know..." if someone tunnels only the black characters in a Trial and then use that as a point of discussion on forums etc. Rather than just complaining that they got tunneled and they feel it was because they weren't caucasian (at which point you can kinda just dismiss that, because they're just being crazy, this game just got rid of the racism).
I'm not interested in discussing this. I said that.
Same, appreciate it.
*asks question
*gets answer which has been said time and time again in the thread
*begins to discuss it before backtracking and removing comment
I'm shutting this down now. I'm simply not interested in arguing over this.
Oh, apologies.
I thought you responded to my comment which specifically said I wasn't interested in discussing it.
And yes, I did edit it, because I thought better of it.
No point in arguing when there is no reasonable expectation of changing someone's mind.
Yeah seems 100% not worth it. Nothing good can come from it. But I do enjoy the show
So are you saying me that a not well known streamer (only 1k followers) is getting constantly purposefully targeted by Bubbas wearing the Claudette cosmetic? Kind of hard to believe (send me links to streams where it happened, I didn't see links on this thread, but didn't check all the pages). Sounds more like an attempt to get visibility (based on the length of this thread it was successful). The first video that I saw on the streamer's profile was flashlight clicking at Bubba... No wonder if you get face camped after your annoying clicking.
The majority of PoC people I know thinks it isn't offensive.
So far the "dozens and dozens of PoC" I've seen that are "offended" aren't really PoC, are white people talking about their "PoC friends" being offended.
Tani? We're ignoring MiladyConfetti and Karen then?
Also if you look at the clip it was uploaded long after the tweets on Bubba 😶😶
It wasn’t only about that one streamer though. ‚SistasOfTheFog‘ for example is a community of black women (and I think including others like non-binary people) that have expressed their feelings and experiences about it as well. I am personally not watching streams much at all so I haven’t directly witnessed harassments like that. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Well. I guess it’s time you give Tani the new information about her: she is white and not black.
"Black women, femmes, and non-binary content creators" is I believe how they describe themselves
Just a quick reminder to keep this a conversation and not a fight, let's stay civil, we can have different opinions, but there is no need to attack one another.
I respect the attempt to keep civility, but I'm afraid you're fighting a losing battle.
Well we have @ReikoMori from the start of the thread, Karen and MiladyConfetti have both been mentioned before so that's at least 4 I could think of in less time it took for me to write this comment. Wait we have Lilliepie actually so there's a fifth.
I'm sure I could find more for you.
Oh, no, I'm watching this and observing.
I was just done actively participating in the topic discussion and rather chose to comment something rather lighthearted.
Apparently, that was a mistake. I shall refrain from doing so in the future.
then don’t ignore the fact that others exist as well maybe? Also I am pretty sure for the most people you are referring to you don’t even know if they are white or not but you are assuming.
Any reason why you left @AkiTheKitten out of your comment? Or all the other PoC people on both twitter, reddit etc that don't have the same opinion?
I'm not really into assuming people's race, since in all honestly it shouldn't matter. I'm not really into identity politics and diving people by their skin color.
Yes, actually. Because you asked specifically for the people who have an issue with it.
Due to them not having an issue, as has been made quite clear, I decided that it wasn't pertinent to include them in a list of people who do have an issue.
It'd be a bit like including every vegemite hater in a list of people who actually like it. Completely nonsensical and unrelated to the point at hand.
But credit for trying. You really did try that.
Sorry, but you started it, talking about the dozens and dozens (you assume) white to talk against it etc.
if you want to refrain from that comment that’s very much fine by me.
This is not about vegemite, this is about people thinking a badly textured cosmetic is racist and certain white people pick and choosing which PoC are right and the ones who are not.
I find it quite tasteless speaking over minorities when they can do it themselves. Making a forum account is free and takes up to 2 minutes.
I didn't start with the "dozens and dozens", I literally quoted someone who said that.
"This isn't about vegemite"
And with the treatment they'd have gotten in this thread? Yeah I absolutely can't blame them for wanting to stay very far away.
But good job not addressing my point at all! With all that deflecting you must a pretty sick tennis player
Which treatment have they gotten in this thread besides some of you guys acting like they can't speak for themselves and need random people on the internet to defend them and talk over them?
I don't see an issue with the cosmetic but I'm not a black person myself so i don't think my opinion holds much weight, but if a lot of people want it changed to another type of unlockable i wouldn't mind.
Yeah. But you started the assumption about the skin color of those people being white even though they actually were referred to PoC by the person you quoted.
I didn't assume their skin color, I know the people talking instead of them are white though.
Idk people being like "lol that never happens" even when others and I have linked directly to them talking about their experiences instead of just paraphrasing it doesn't seem like a wonderful impression
oh lol. Okay. And that’s why I said you gotta pass the Marigoria test to call yourself black.
Edit: GBK has provided several people with links. Maybe stop ignoring those people? Also for most of the forum users, you really don’t know the skin colors.
Again, which test? I literally know how the person who said "dozens and dozens" of people looks like.
And? That’s one person that was referring to other people.