"If enough people report you, you're gone" mentality.
As much I want to give Behavior and community some credibility and faith on their auto-ban system, I feel there needs to be a discussion on this particular topic. In the 5th Anniversary stream, there was mention about an auto-ban system and this raised a brow with my friends and I. I spoken with a few smaller content creators and they even agree it has some worrisome factors. A lot of us have been playing for years, heard this report accusation, and nothing ends up happening to us.
Yet, if we compare this to other big-titled games (like LoL or Overwatch), there has been known cases of players manipulating the game report system to get someone else in trouble. This can be in the form of twisting the facts to benefit the messenger, encouraging players to mass false report, or baiting a reaction to send a report. Alongside, depending on how the automation is handled, some toxic behavior can be slipped through the cracks because the program doesn't detect a specific phrase, word, or analogy. It can also be false red-flagged because the bot doesn't decipher the context of the situation. I can see Behavior's good intentions, but there needs to be oversight.
Now, why do I bring this particular issue up?
A few nights ago, I was playing around with the infamous Basement Bubba build and camping people in the basement. For context, I wasn't making any attempt to single-target people. If I got them in a different game and they ended up as a victim, then it was by pure coincidence. Whoever ended up in the basement first was the victim for the game. I was following the game rules addressed here by not_Queen:
@not_Queen said:
Please remember that Dead by Daylight’s end user license agreement which can be found on https://deadbydaylight.com/en/eula (the “EULA”) governs your participation and use of the game and its associated upgrades, patches, and updates and related services. In case of conflict between the EULA and this page, the EULA will prevail.
Hello, good people of the fog!
We now have a team Associate Community Managers, as well as an updated in-game report system.
With your help, we will be able to find the players who are creating a bad game experience and punish them appropriately, making the game a better place.HOW TO REPORT A PLAYER
You may only report things that happen directly to you or in a game that you were in.
Reporting for other people is not allowed and these reports will be discarded.
(ie. Reporting someone on behalf of a friend, streamer, or other)Fill the In-game report
An In-game report MUST be made. This is not optional, and is a must to help us identify the person in your game as well as find any other evidence we need.
Customer Support ticket?
- Video evidence is required or heavily suggested for some offenses, please refer to the lists below.
- Whilst you can report offenses directly to our support, please only do so for serious offenses like cheating, hacking, DOX/death threats.
Discarded reports reasons
THE FOLLOWING ARE NOT CONSIDERED BANNABLE OFFENSES - PLEASE DO NOT REPORT
- Camping
- Slugging
- Tunneling
- Streamsniping
- Teabagging
- Bodyblocking
- Looping
NOTE:
We do not control anything that happens outside of Dead by Daylight.
This includes private Steam messages/groups/names, PS4/XBOX messages, Discord messages, Twitch/social media interactions, etc. Anything that occurs on these platforms must be reported to the respective authorities.PERMANENT BANS
List of bannable offenses
Hacking in-game exclusives and / or legacy skins
The acquiring of any in-game skin through anything other than official channels (ie. codes, giveaways, etc.)
The possession of legacy skins without earning them. The cutoff to earn legacy skins happened on November 24, 2016. If a player has obtained legacy skins after this date, then it is considered cheating.
In-game report REQUIRED / Customer Support ticket REQUIREDCheated progress / modifying your save file
We need the profile of the person you are reporting. Reportable via support team.
Using any 3rd party software or other method to cheat your save file or any measure of progress contained within your save file. This includes using someone else’s save file.
In-game report REQUIRED / Customer Support ticket REQUIREDThreats
Excessive and serious threats against someone, including DOX threats, life threats, disclosing private information, etc.
You can fill a support ticket to provide more information, Screenshots and video are optional, but highly recommended.
Reminder: everything that happens out of the game should be reported to the appropriate platform. (ie: Twitch, Discord, Steam, Sony, Microsoft)
In-game report REQUIRED / Customer Support ticket OPTIONALOther Hacks
In-game report under Unsportsmanlike is MANDATORY
Using 3rd party software or other tools to gain any kind of unfair advantage that wasn’t intended by the game, except if they have been whitelisted by us. We are not banning for the use of communication apps.
In-game report REQUIRED / Customer Support ticket REQUIREDTEMPORARY BAN
List of bannable offenses
24h -> 48h -> 1w -> Permanent
This is a sliding scale and determined on a case-by-case basis. If an offense is considered to be particularly egregious, the duration of the ban may skip one or more steps in this process.
Any previous permanent bans on your record will result in all future offenses being a permanent ban.
Harassment: Communications Abuse
- Insults, intimidation, hateful speech, repeated harassment
In-game report REQUIRED / Customer Support ticket OPTIONALGriefing: Intentional Gameplay Abuse
- Working with the opposite team to gain an advantage or grief teammates
- Targeting specific users repeatedly in order to ruin their game experience
- Holding the game hostage
In-game report REQUIRED / Customer Support ticket OPTIONALExploits: Abusing bugs or errors in design to gain a competitive advantage
- Advertising exploits
- Exploit bugs, errors in design, or undocumented features to gain access to what otherwise would not be available or to obtain a competitive advantage
In-game report REQUIRED / Customer Support ticket OPTIONALSpecific exploits that we will ban for until they are resolved:
- Bloodweb Progress/Prestige Exploit
- 2+ Killer Exploits
Unsportsmanlike Conduct
- Botting
- Lag switching
- Disconnects (leaving the match before killed or sacrificed) - DO NOT REPORT
For both Botting and Lag switching, in-game reports are REQUIRED / Customer Support ticket OPTIONALAbout Disconnects bans - DO NOT REPORT
Disconnects are handled by the disconnection penalty system. No further action will be taken on reports.
BAN APPEALS
Cannot be appealed
- Temporary bans
- Social Media bans/blocks (Twitch, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram)
- Unofficial Fan sites / Fan groups
Forum bans: APPEALS
Please check this link.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/kb/articles/140-ban-appealsPermanent bans : APPEALS
Send a Ticket to support.deadbydaylight.com
If the ban is an automated EAC ban, please contact EAC directly. https://www.easy.ac/en-us/support/game/contact/appeal/Console bans
The rules are the same as the PC bans
Crossplatform ban evasion
Players who have violated our rules multiple times leading to permanent bans could get their access revoked on any accounts they make if the player is seen committing bannable offenses after the very first permanent ban. The structure and severity of these bans are followed throughout any platform.
Abuse of Support Services
This includes making false support tickets and lying to support agents. Our agents are always here to help the community. However, those making false tickets just to get a step ahead of everyone else and take advantage hinders our ability to better help everyone. Penalties include suspension of your support services, up to a permanent ban of your in-game account.
Back to the subject at hand, I ran into a particular SWF who got hostile and vile towards me for my play style. They all tried to rush save the victim, but ended up getting insidious chainsawed by Bubba. This made them incredibly upset and started harassing me in chat for playing basement bubba. I tried to clarify to the individuals this wasn't a reportable offense and it was a strategy. Yet, what was said afterwards made me a bit concerned...
(I cut down and censored the conversation to protect the privacy of other players and keep the topic at hand.)
This makes me gravely concerned for the auto-ban system. It's not the first time I've been threatened by this, but the growing mentality some players are getting is alarming and concerning. All because if someone doesn't like a specific play style the killer or survivor is doing, then they can tag a report onto the individual for x, y, or z reason. (I've been accused of being AFK, hate crime against another, toxic, etc. for simply running the build.) This can easily become an issue for killers, since we're in a 1v4 dynamic. If a full-SWF or a partial-SWF gets mad or upset at a killer's play style, then they can dog pile reports onto the killer. If enough reports meet the quota and the player gets suspended automatically by the bot without review, then the automation system is open season for abuse.
That's why I want to bring this up for attention before the system gets implemented soon. No matter what game this automation system has been implemented, people have been known to abuse the system. Unfortunately, this game (like many others) does have a block of players who will cry foul at anything and call the moderators in. This is a video game and people should be allowed to enjoy the game however they want, as long it's in the game's rules, even if the play style is something you may disagree with.
Comments
It isn't because griefing is defined as "Targeting specific users repeatedly in order to ruin their game experience". This is taken directly from the game rules. Emphasis is on "repeatedly" and "specific"
Yeah, because a lot of people don't understand the tool tips of the game from underused perks to their opponent's perks. I try to make an effort to understand perks when I play killer, so I can try using it to my advantage. Unfortunately, a lot of people stick to a cookie cutter template and not bother to deviate from there.
Yes. A lot of the time it's whining from survivors, but these people can be serious on filing false reports and clogging up the support system. All because they got stomped in a pub match and want to ruin their opponent's gameplay experience in return. This type of behavior is against the rules and shouldn't be tolerated, especially when Behaviour starts on an automated system.
Exactly. If I was targeting [x] for several games in a row because of a specific reason, then it can be considered a violation. Yet, I avoided doing that for the sake of not ruining people's games. I even dodged lobbies if I encountered them a bit too often.
This is why I believe clarification of the rules should be done in text form and altogether in one document. (Not the current mess of several documents.) People assume facecamping and Insidious camping is bannable under the griefing or harassment tabs.
In regards to false reports the game rules state:
Abuse of support services
This includes making false support tickets and lying to support agents. Our agents are always here to help the community. However, those making false tickets just to get a step ahead of everyone else and take advantage hinders our ability to better help everyone. Penalties include suspension of your support services, up to a permanent ban of your in-game account.
So I really hope that all the survivors that spam the report system with their complaints about camping and tunneling will get a wake up call
I should make much shorter posts, maybe then people would read them.
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Insidious Basement Camping Bubba is done solely to ruin a match for 4 people and waste their time. Killers who willingly plan to do this, know exactly what they're doing and get some sick amusement out of making others miserable- oh, but sanitize it by calling it "a playstyle". It's just trolling.
Personally, I think it's griefing.
And I find it fun. The 3 times I did it, I had fun. I didn't do it to ruin anyone's experience, I did it just because it is fun to me.
Basement Boob basically means you camp. Which is not bannable. Periodt.
but its not reportable. Thats literally in the list of things not reportable.
Uh huh. Last time I encountered an Insidious Basement camping Bubba, it resulted in 3 disconnects, no gens done, and I was left to find the hatch. Everyone depipped, no one earned many BPs, so If you aren't finding the idea of making others miserable entertaining, because you know full well that it's universally despised- can you articulate what you find fun about it?
and I know it's technically not bannable. But I hope it becomes punishable some day b/c it's griefing almost exclusively against Solo survivors, exploiting their inability to communicate.
ikr.
The only people breaking rules there are the people who DC'd.
You can't punish perk set-ups/playstyles
I'm sure it will never be punished. And yes, I am well aware of DC'ing being against the rules (and yet, it happens every other match!). At the same time, no one can blame survivors for getting uppity either. I don't blame people for not wanting to entertain bad manners. But it's DBD after all :) . "It's a LeGiT strategy" and all that type of thing.
So then, streamers will get banned swiftly because of targeted mass reporting?
"Appeal to majority" is not effective reasoning, 100 people can all be wrong on something at the same time. It should always be looked into. If the devs go forward with volume being THE factor OR a major factor, then they're opening the doors to abuse.
They'd be wasting their money on making the game more "modern" to invite newbies when the toxic community that would arise would just drive them away. lmao
Why would streamers in particular be targeted for mass reporting?
And yes, 100 people can be wrong about something. What I think most people fail to consider is that it's unlikely for 100 total strangers to just suddenly report someone for the same thing, especially if that person didn't actually do anything egregious.
I understand the concern about an automated ban system but I think that people are jumping the gun on this generalized idea that "if enough people report you, you're gone". No developer of an online game is going to be so stupid that they're willing to ostracize their entire playerbase by just flipping on a switch that says "10 reports ever and this person is permabanned". I'm pretty confident that the requirements will be a little more reasonable than that.
They'd be targeted by haters, people trying to streamsnipe, or people salty that they got stomped.
Imagine being one of those who managed to get someone like Otzdarva banned. You'd be noticed... not in a good way, but noticed.
I think so too, but this is BHVR, they worded it in this manner on the stream, and there has been no actual deconfirmation that it WON'T work this way. The devs also said "volume", I think? I know it was brought up in this topic. Which pretty much gives the story, wouldn't you say?
If everyone is wrong, it really shouldn't be hard to just deny it or say it won't work this way. This is honestly such a easy thing to shoot down. It's... worrying that they haven't just denied it. I'm sure others feel the same.
No offense but it's kind of ironic to say that group mentality is bad because it's the alleged reason why some Youtube goon got banned but it's a good thing when a bunch of people who don't know the details of something decide that it needs to go before it even exists.
People keep ignoring the point so I'm just going to keep reiterating it: A broken ban system will not just anger players, it will legitimately cost the company money. They're not going to release something, or at least stand behind it, if it turns out to be a massive detriment to both parties. That would make no business sense. So until we know what the details will actually be, I think it's safe to suggest that people should relax and not go scorched Earth on the subject. So many people jump to the worst-case scenario and assume that just because a handful of people think that they're tunneling, or hiding, or whatever else, they'll just wake up one day and find that they're restricted from playing the game ever again. I don't quite think that what they have in mind is going to be THAT easy to abuse. Maybe we should all just wait and see.
This is apples and oranges because we have evidence that this is how the system will work, and like I said, the fact that they won't just say "it won't work this way" is telling.
But... fine. However, if everyone here was right, then you will hopefully be protesting it.
What evidence are you talking about? What is this about "everyone being right"? I don't know what you're referring to.
You said that the Youtube streamer got banned because too many people reported him. I didn't follow the story because I could hardly care less about Youtube streamers. What I've been told is that BHVR made the call, not some automated system. I'm not aware of the planned auto-ban system having played a role in this situation, or anyone else being banned because of it yet. My understanding, at least as recently as when I went to bed last night, is that no one is sure of the details yet and that serious claims that required proof before will continue to need proof in the future. This is from one of the mods themselves.
If you have evidence to the contrary, I'll respond to it. Until then my awareness of the changed report / ban system is that it has not yet been implemented, nor detailed, and that any discussion about it is pure speculation with a healthy amount of "worst-case scenario" based on nothing more than the fact that (A) it's at least somewhat automated, and (B) volume will make a difference (which, contrary to popular belief, is a good thing). Should someone be banned because two hundred people reported him, or two?
in my opinion, those who are afraid are because they feel defective
While this is reassuring to some extent, I believe this auto-ban system is going to encourage more toxicity rather than reduce it. Now players know that they can potentially get people to be reviewed for ban, even if they did not against the rules, simply by spamming reports against someone. It’s only going to increase the amount of reporting for non-reportable things and lead to an even more toxic environment, IMO. If this system does end up getting implemented, one thing that would make me feel much better about it is the potential for players to be banned if they are constantly reporting people for non-reportable things. That would be an effective way to help reduce the toxicity
Abusing the report system is already against the rules:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/kb/articles/139-game-rules
No, no Youtuber got banned, I was saying that this would most likely happen under the autoban system. "100 false reports" is very possible if the target is a famous person.
And by "everyone was right", I mean that if everyone was right about the autoban system working exactly as everyone fears it will, I hope that you will be protesting it alongside everyone else.
My evidence is also, in hindsight, not decisive, but there are two big things to this:
Look, I get your point. "It's not out yet", "we don't have any details", etc... but this evidence leads to very worrying conclusions. This forums has something to go off of, it's not baseless emotional panicking. And like I said before, it's not hard at all to just say it won't work like this. You can just say "no" without giving any deeper details, and that will calm pretty much everyone down.
Rizzo has also said something here... but I noticed a issue with it. I don't think it actually answers these concerns at all.
Yes but this autoban system is a "auto" ban system. Will anyone be reviewing these reports? It was implied that volume of reports would be enough on that stream. And as far as I know, no staff at BHVR have specifically said it won't work like everyone fears it will. Just that "it's not finished yet" or "it's still being decided", iirc.
Even if it's against the rules, if there is no system or person in place to check if the report system is being abused... will it even matter if it's against the rules?
We already said multiple times that things within the game rules won't get punished, we don't have details on how it will work because still in development.
And there's a team of ACMs already in charge of dealing with the reports, they will most likely supervise said system, but again we'll give out more information about it when we will be able to.
And I understand your worries, I'm just saying that people shouldn't panic, they should give the team a chance to develop the system that they have in mind and tell us more about it. If by then there's still worry, maybe we can chat with them about it. But until then it's only logical to assume that they don't want to make a system that will ostracize (or outright delete) a bunch of good, honest customers, so I'm just remaining on the "wait and see" side of things. We don't have the answers yet, so at the moment stressing about it is just that, causing ourselves unnecessary stress.
When people realise they can’t get someone banned for tunnelling or camping etc, what is to stop them from simply lying in their report? As you say, video evidence would be needed. But that’s not a new system. That’s the current system, and we know a new system is being worked on.
Granted, we don’t have the details yet but it doesn’t really add up. A new system coined “auto ban” that requires video evidence like the current system?
Time will tell I suppose.
if they do implement the mentioned auto-ban system, that's a clear sign the devs disagree with this statement to a certain degree, right? In addition to violating the rules there is now an additional path ahead to a ban: if you upset enough other players.
If this is indeed a new system coming in the form you described in your OP, then you cannot point to the rules and ToS alone anymore, it will be a new system, and maybe the ToS will be updated to reflect this.
After the 5th, 6th, nth basement camping bubba, iridescent huntress, whatever intentionally triggering killer setup is there out there, people might not want to bite the bullet one more time. Maybe the devs' intention is to create a community where a portion of their player base don't have to bite bullets over and over again.
Personally I'm not sure if I like it, I can see the value of it and the disadvantage of it as well. We'll just have to wait and see.
You're literally worrying about nothing
It's still in development. How can you say that it won't be abusable if it isn't even finished?
We had a very similar situation in the past with the automated disconnect bans. That system had to be disabled multiple times because people kept finding ways to trigger it on players who did not disconnect, such as popular streamers.
Supposedly abusing that system required some kind of expert knowledge to abuse it, but any sort of auto-ban system that doesn't function properly in a similar way that the disconnect ban system didn't function properly seems like it could be falsely triggered by anyone from within the game, for example by mass reporting people.
No one is saying that the system will be intentionally built in such a way that it can be abused but based on the track record the developers have with things being released in a completely broken state it doesn't seem impossible that the auto-ban system will have some kind of flaw that will be abused and lead to a lot of incorrect bans.