Mori should not work with cages
I just got mori'd after being sent to a cage. If hook perks don't work with cages, neither should mori which requires hooks.
"Grants the ability to kill one/all Survivors who have been hooked by your hand during the next Trial."
This is the exact description for Ivory/Ebony. It's honestly bull ######### this even works.
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Changing the description would change nothing but the description.
The whole justification for this entire thread is that the mori says hook which a cage is not. So if that is actually the problem AND it is taken away then there will not be a problem.
If changing the wording does NOT solve the problem that means it was never the main issue in the first place.
So if you don't care about the wording then what exactly is the problem.
Completely agree. They should either remove the fact mori's are a exception to this or make ALL hook perks not a exception.
Or... just make it so mori doesn't work. It's obviously an oversight if literally EVERY OTHER HOOK EFFECT DOES NOT WORK with cages.
If the killer picks you up, there are ways to stop them from getting a hook. You can flashlight save, bodyblock, sabo a hook, etc. There is no way to stop a cage. So to sit there and say "it's basically the same thing" is just flat out wrong. It's not the same thing. Not even close.
the problem is hook perks dont work out of the cage right??? as a matter of fact exhaustion doesnt even rest when thrown in the gulag why should a mori work when the requirement to do so is to hook someone???? yes it takes a hook stage but it isnt a hook. if your going to allow a mori you need to make all hook perks work as well thats the problem.
and when i say ALL hook perks i mean ALL killer/survivor alike.
Ok so if we make mori's prerequisite "if the next hook would put the Survivor in the struggle state", thus making it have nothing to do with having hooked the Survivor in the first place. Then it would solve the problem, and any perks with the same wording would have the same interaction of course.
If this does not solve your problem, then THIS CANNOT BE THE ISSUE.
Whatever statement you use the establish this as an issue, in an alternative universe where the statement is false the issue must not exist.
"Hook perks don't work out of cages" is not enough to establish anything, since it's a non-sequiter by itself.
"Hook perks don't work out of cages AND mori's are a hook perk" is more legitimate. However if that statement is in fact the reason for the interaction being bad then if mori's were reworded to NOT be a hook perk (thus making the earlier statement false), then it MUST solve the problem.
Even if they did change this it wouldn't change a thing, you just get hooked instead of sent to the cage. Either way you get moried on the second down.
@thesuicidefox there u go proving my point again. descriptions have been known to be inconsistent. im not ignoring it merely acknowledging how they've been inaccurate in the past and can change. smthn you seem to be unable to grasp
anyways, i never said they were "basically the same thing" so dont go putting words in my mouth just so you can strawman. to be precise, i implied that the time saved by caging is not as impactful as let on and is actually harmful a lot of times
all the examples you provided are easily dealt with and situational anyway. and as you've failed to address caging is still almost pointless as in most situations, the surv actually saves more time than you gain as you surrender a lot of pressure in caging and are giving a free save. the only time it is decent is if you want to quick cage a slug smthn you'd be lucky to take advantage of multiple times especially against good teams
Dude it makes 0 sense to change an offering that effects every killer instead of just changing that one killer's interaction with said offering.
Explain why it needs to be a thing. No other hook effect works with cages, why are we going to make an exception for this ONE instance?
Hook anything doesn't work with cages, this is obviously an oversight by the devs if this interaction works.
The only reason someone would defend this is because they plan to abuse it. Sorry but there is no other way you guys could be arguing for this BS as much as you are. It's pretty clear that it's a broken interaction that isn't supposed to happen, and changing the offering for this one specific interaction makes no sense.
You can stop the killer from getting a hook. You can't stop them from getting a cage. If I have a flashlight that's usually enough to deter the killer from attempting a hook.
"descriptions have been known to be inconsistent."
And interactions have been know to happen that shouldn't happen, what is your point? If the devs said that hook effects don't work with cages it makes no sense for this ONE SPECIFIC HOOK EFFECT to work with cages.
Again the only reason you guys are defending this is if you want to abuse it. If you can make the argument "there's no difference between a hook and a cage" then you shouldn't have a problem with hooking to get your mori.
You aren't changing the offering. You are changing the text ON the offering. No mechanics are altered.
Lets put in this way:
In an alternate universe where the text on mori's is and always was "You can Kill a Survivor if their next hook would put them into the struggle or sacrafice phase", would you still have a problem and if so why?
And then when there is some other interaction, maybe with a future killer, that contradicts the new text? You are changing something that affects everyone, instead of just fixing the interaction for that specific killer.
Cage =/= hook. It's as simple as that. You shouldn't be able to mori a survivor unless you hook them. If you play Executioner and put on a mori, you will need to hook them first. You already have a built in mori, it's completely unfair that you get a free mori when no other hook effect works.
Fine then, an alternative universe where the text says "If the Survivor has been hooked or caged you may kill them".
There, now it specifically references cages and thus wouldn't have any difference with any hypothetical other Killers.
NOW would it solve the problem? If not then why.
I am not dev, I didn't design the killer but If i had to make a guess, It is probably balance reasons. Imagine your perks are BBQ, MYC,Devour hope and pop. If these perk work with his cage power, he could slug 2 people who are tormented, send 1 to cage for instant BBQ proc(based off his location), manually hook 2nd survivor, suppose the survivor saved caged person, MYC procs, you walk to the cage, knock the MYC survivor, hook that survivor, in all that time, you went from 0 tokens of devour hope to 3 and in this time, you were able to kick 3 generator for 75% regression. It would be pretty nutty snowball. I'd have to admit, it would be very interesting ultra-rare add-on. If anything, Pyramid head gives you glimpse of what every killer would play like if perks like BT and DS did not exist as perks. Just be happy you have those perks as survivor vs other killers.
A small word of advice, I don't actually respect DS as a perk if the killer I'm playing is very strong in 1vs1. Like if your playing spirit, If your really confident in the chase, you'll eat instant heal and be almost certain that you'll be able to down the survivor anyway. DS only hurts killers who are weak at the chase and need to respect certain alignments of tilesets. Like if your playing Myers and the map is Ormond, you need respect the fact that taking a DS can lead to Safe pallet>Jungle gym->Safe pallet->Jungle gym->Shack and that could be game losing chase. You just don't got outplay tool as Myers to contest these ultra-safe tiles. Just my 2 cents.
OR
They just make it so you have to hook to get the mori.
Why is so hard to admit that's how it should be? The offering is meant for hooks. Cages are not hooks. Allowing it to work with cages is just flat out broken.
"It is probably balance reasons. "
Which is the same reason that a mori should not work with cages, besides the fact the offering says "hook" specifically.
...you can mori someone after caging them?
Wow BHVR, if it's not one thing it's another.
a mori will take a survivor out in less than 2 minutes ESPECIALLY with a killer like Dorito head.
Answer my question. I'm aware that changing the mechanics is one way to solve a mechanics wording disconnect. However changing the wording is also ALWAYS a solution to a mechanics wording disconnect.
So either acknowledge this fact or give a reason to change the interaction that is independent from the offering using the word hook and stop acting like this is a clarity issue.
@thesuicidefox my point is that you're basing your entire argument on an unreliable thing. this should be common sense.
and again you repeat the same old tired points as if saying it again makes it right somehow... i can see you have nothing to actually add to this conversation. w/e man ur right
If hooking perks don't work for either side, I don't see why moris should work after being only caged once?
*points out the unreliable thing in order to get it fixed*
"Can't base your opinions on unreliable things"
WUT
The only fact here is that the offering says, explicitly, that you must hook a survivor and the cage does not work for ANY OTHER HOOK EFFECT. Those are all the facts I need. The solution is to make the cage interaction with mori the same as it is with all other hook effects. ON TOP OF THAT, the current way the interaction works is just broken. PERIOD.
Ok so if we change the wording, thus falsifying those facts you said you needed, then you wouldn't have the hook effect issue. Riiiiight?
@thesuicidefox i'll clarify since apparently it's hard to understand. things as in evidence. e.g., what makes it unreliable in your eyes, etc. some offering description is not reliable. they change.
happy?
@NuclearBurrito no, they dont actually care about consistency it seems. they had an unhappy game against ph so now ph's power must change
No because it's still a broken interaction. Being able to cage and then mori is broken. You can't stop a cage. If you have torment the killer can cage you and there is 0 defense. If the killer has to hook you have defenses. Flashlights, bodyblocks, sabo... there are ways to stop a hook. Furthermore, you have defensive options saving from a hook. BT, DS, also body blocks, swarming. You don't get these defensive options with cages, the best you get is that the cage spawns far away but in every instance where I've been caged the killer has managed to still find me very shortly after being saved if not being right on top of me while I'm still in the cage. IT IS BROKEN.
So here are the FACTS:
1) Mori's specifically say "hooks". We don't need to change the descriptions universally to fix an interaction with one specific killer.
2) Devs have said that hook effects do not work with cages. Cage =/= hook. Therefore it makes no sense to have this interaction.
3) The interaction is broken because you can defend from being hooked or after a hook rescue, you cannot do the same for cages.
Your solution does nothing to fix any of these problems.
The only evidence we need are what I stated above. The offering says "HOOK", you don't need any other evidence. There are instances of the devs fixing the perk to match the description, in fact there are more of those instances than them fixing the description to fit the effect. The only ones that even come to mind are Myer's recent add-on changes.
LOL seriously? Consistency would be that mori's don't work with cages since no other hook effect works. You can't be real with this comment. This has to be a troll.
Yes. Hmmm. Cages don't proc any hook effects, except this one. Oh yea, very consistent. Like...
Description changes are rarer than effect changes because the description was written to match the intended effect while a bug causing a problem with the effect was not.
However, in this particular case we cannot just assume that this is an example of that, since Mori's came out long before cages did, and while they were explicit with the mechanics not working with hook perks, the devs never called out Mori's.
Now I'd imagine that if you checked the code for Mori's it would probably be making a check for the Survivors current hook state, and since hook states ARE effected by cages mori's work with cages.
If the wording reflected this then there would be no consistency issues what so ever. Cages effect hook states, that is something both hooks and cages share and any other perks that reference hook states rather than hook actions would probably have the same interactions.
I'm well aware that we COULD change the code itself to check for the hook action and not the hook state. But that's not the point and that's not why I'm asking, since in my ideal world cages would count as hooks for everything and mori offerings wouldn't exist.
The point is that you opened this entire discussion about a consistency issue, and I'm trying to ensure that this is ACTUALLY a consistency issue and not a balance issue that has an entirely separate consistency issue by shear coincidence.
@thesuicidefox consistency would also be that the mori's description be changed to accurately reflect how it works. it counters all hook perks, not offerings
and lmao at you cant defend from cages. it's incredibly easy to make it time consuming for ph to torment you and then if the surv's smart the time save is negligible and harmful more times than not so yeah really unfair bud. your defence is the chase
if the killer gets to you more times than your teammates do than that's on your bad team, not the cages.
It is both a consistency issue AND a balance issue. So no changing the description does not fix a damn thing.
It shouldn't work. PERIOD. It just shouldn't. I can't fathom how you guys defend that it should. It's broken and doesn't match what the descriptions say. You lose on both fronts. There is no arguing for this.
No it counters all hook EFFECTS, which includes mori.
You obviously haven't played against a PH that knows what they are doing. If they want to tunnel you out of the game, they very easily can. It isn't hard to walk across the map to your cage and catch you just after you got saved (assuming someone was there to save you right away).
It would fix the consistency issue. The balance issue is separate.
OR
Just make mori not work with cages to fix BOTH the consistency issue and balance issue in one shot.
Like for real, you guys have no argument to defend this. Everything you come up with is easily countered with the simple argument that the offering explicitly says "HOOK" in the description.
@thesuicidefox no you have no real argument to support your point, crutching hard on a description. descriptions have been inaccurate in the past and have been updated accordingly to properly reflect how they behave.
as @NuclearBurrito alluded to, a "hook" could actually mean "hook state" but since cages did not exist back then, there was no need for the distinction to be made in the description
Better than the argument based on assumptions, which is all you guys are doing.
Offering description clearly says "survivors that have been hooked". Devs have said that cages are not hooks because they do not proc hook effects. It's not this hard to comprehend. It's very obviously an oversight by the devs.
Imagine saying someone is "crutching hard on the description" then turn around and make up a bunch of ######### that isn't even in the game to defend it being the way it is.
cOnSiSteNCy strikes again. Pretty good job so far.
@thesuicidefox im not assuming anything. just pointed out one way the description might change if mori out of cages were found to be intentional. the irony of this situation is that you just made an assumption there lmao
No I didn't. The offering says "survivors that have been HOOKED". It doesn't get more definitive than that.
And again, it's not just a consistency thing, it's a balance thing. Being able to mori after only a cage is broken AF. You have defenses against hooks and after hook saves. You don't have defenses against cages and your defense after a cage save is extremely limited and highly RNG dependent. If your cage was in a dead zone you are just dead.
fine it doesnt matter really, PH has a free mini mori .. just saves me moris
Q.E.D.
And nothing prevents PH from using the hooks if he wants to use perks – or an offering – working with the hooks.
Damm why survivors are such crybabies complaining about everything lol 😴
I think it's pretty valid for someone to complain about a broken offering working in accordance with something that survivors have no way to counter other than not going down despite the fact that the offering itself explains that it shouldn't be working the way it currently does regarding cages.
I better not catch you saying anything about second chance perks like DS then. I'll make note of this post 😉
Also what @indieeden7 said.
Good to see some people actually have some common sense around here.
I don't care about ds as PH 😎
100% Agreed.
Huh I was actually wondering if moris worked with cages. Makes it seem like in funny pseudocode terms moris operate on an "if hook state != first, allow mori" as opposed to actually having anything to do with the hook itself.
I don't really have any opinion on it one way or another, but considering the devs seem very adamant on the "the cage is not a hook" idea for all sorts of perks I'm sorta surprised they actually work with moris.
I agree, moris should not work with cages. Perks don't work, so neither should moris.
Mori and cages interact just fine.
Mori's arent activated by either hooking or ungooking a survivor.
When standing on a downed survivor, their current state is checked for "full, struggle or instantdeath"; if its not the first, you can mori them.
While it's true that the mori is worded for "unhooked survivors", it only means it was written when there were no alternate means of triggering it's condition.
In the moris it's written that survivors have to be hooked. They should work the way they say, just like perks do.
EDIT: Before someone tries to "correct" me, yes, Cypress is the exception.
Wow quick response lol.
Thanks or the fact check.
Then either devs did forget to change the mori or it's description. Though the rest of my reasoning is still valid.
Yes, I like to respond when I can. I'm not someone who waits 5 minutes before replying so I don't seem "desperate" or whatever, I just don't see the point. If I happen to be around when you reply, I'll reply back. Simple.
Yes, your reasoning explaining how moris check for the hooking state is valid, but that's not what's at stake here. The point is that moris should work just like perks and for the same reason as perks: because cages are not hooks.
Well the mories probably look for if you are missing a hookstate instead of if you have been hooked.
Just a bug, report it and it will get fixed soon™
wait really?
Lol I've been trying to allways hook first and then mori instead of using the cages