3 Seconds Is More Than Enough
I'm a Legion main and I like to see most of the threads that appear on the forum about the killer.
But one thing about them is that when anyone asks "Why did Legion get his fatigue increased to 4 seconds from 3?" the answer from the devs is always "Because they are a 4.6 m/s killer and the power would be too oppressive in chase and the survivor gets almost no time to run away to a pallet or window."
I got intrigued if it is really that bad to have a 3 seconds cooldown, so I decided to test that with a friend of mine. These videos are purely to measure the distance that the survivor gets when Legion cancels frenzy right behind the survivor so no mindgames or anything else like that matters here (in the second one i used shadowborn oops). I also recorded them in a kinda realistic scenario.
For the people who might say "But they had the speed boost from the hit" - I only cancelled the frenzy when I was very very close to the survivor so they had no speed boost there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcWjbyiy4-MI think that 3 seconds fatigue is more than enough for a survivor to run away to safety from the killer.
The cooldown add-ons could just be reworked into something completely different.
Tell me your opinion about this.
Comments
If thats you metric, its poor. I suggest looking at which killers get picked more and how long their average trail looks like. Then look at and consist outlier and try to uncover what is happening and how it is happening. Also, you got to ask yerselves is this really so bad/good and how are the fans reacting.
This should be reviewed weekly for any notable changes and more testing should be done to see how prototype balance changes will operate, as wellas be received by the community.
I agree that the cooldown add ons should be changed if the fatigue is reduced but what i feel like would be better going in the lines of what you're suggesting is giving the speed back to the detection range add ons as a bonus to what it is now. What do you think?
Considering how the developers on the streams have stated before multiple times to not take the numbers seriously, I find it really ironic that you then turn around and decide to quote numbers.
The real salt in the wound is the fact that everyone with at least half a brain in the community knows that Legion is an absolute dogsh*t killer and the person who thought the last "rework" (it was a plethora of nerfs not a rework and if you insist on calling it a rework, I find your attempt to be really sad and laughable at best) was a good idea to be completely and utterly incompetent.
TL:DR Nobody cares about your numbers, stop bringing them up and actually listen to your community, because they clearly understand this game better than you do.
I disagree. The plight of Legion is just not that disadvantaged. I literally just played a Legion. They did just fine, despite not being particularly good. I agree - killers sense of pressure in a match is greater, but that's true with all killers and the nature of the killer role vs. survivor role. You can argue you don't like the stats for whatever reason, but the data is what is. Legion does just fine in both the overall data and the red rank specific data. Legion is currently doing just fine. Changing times on any ability is not a QoL change - it's a buff or a nerf...I guess some would also call it "balance". And no, he doesn't need a buff. I agree, I am looking forward to matchmaking coming. If I get one more potato survivor team where half of them score half of what I score in a match, I'm going to start bleeding from the eyes.
It is, but because main survivors cried oceans this is what we got. Probably 90% of the survivors playerbase hate legion. And don't forget the miss attack fatigue... what a joke.. like if Legion was a Nurse Tier to get some fatigue... That change was the most dumb thing they did.
Agree Imo even 2 seconds wouldn't be too op. Hell why am I still here even? Well... anyway greetings my friend!
I don't mind the 4 second fatigue. It doesn't really hold me up all that bad. The thing that hits me the hardest is the miss penalty.
I don't think the post is related to how good or how bad legion is. I think it is related to legion not feeling rewarding enough when he successfully lands a good feral frenzy on entire team. For example, when you play Huntress, when you hit all your hatchets, it just feels really good. With legion, It feels like you do a lot of work as legion when you play him, but your reward at the end of the day is 4 second stun that is almost as long as Decisive strike. I might be interpreting the post incorrectly, but I think the reason why people rate legion as terrible killer is because he feels bad to play, not that he can't produce results.
I feel like he reminds me of old freddy in the sense that old freddy had some good elements about him but he didn't feel quite right. New legion is similar problem. He doesn't strike the correct notes. From survivor POV, his power is not interactive. From the killer POV, He doesn't feel rewarding in a sense that the player does not feel very accomplished when being successful with his power. Legion lacks good elements of strategy as a killer and good elements of counter-play/interactivity for the survivor. I think the idea behind making a killer that punishes grouping is really cool concept for DBD but it isn't properly expressed/imagined. perhaps Old freddy was a better imagination of a killer that punishes grouping up by putting multiple people into dream world and than plays a cool wallhack/stealth game with survivors, but that is perhaps forgone concept.
You're here because you were passionate about this game and what happened to you was the worse, friend, but no further discussion about that here.
I feel like 2 seconds would be op, 2.5 seconds would be the sweet spot.
I, personally, that played Legion for over 800 hours am really getting annoyed by the 4 seconds cooldown. 3 seconds is a lot better and makes almost no difference for the survivors.
As many people said in the thread, the "rework" was a quickly done and rush with no very complex thought behind it. I thought the rework was good before actually trying it but i was playing for 4 months at that time so yh.
After experiencing the rework, you feel like youre not rewarded for doing anything with the power. You feel like youre rewarded only when you get 3 or 4 hits very quickly and no one has mended yet... but again you get the 4 seconds stun. It feels sluggish.
The data that they are based on is the same data that they told us not to base on. Which makes sense WHY we shouldn't make assumptions based on that. What doesn't make sense is a dev presenting an argument based on that. The stats dont show anything. Massive community agreement means more than that imo.
I think legion should have something in antiloop, maybe even 3 hits to down someone using frenzy like it was before and you can also use your power at any time with 3 seconds fatique and that's all.
The kill rates isn't my issue, I can kill with legion, I just wish they weren't so punishing.
Imagine you knew nothing about legion, like they were an unreleased killer. And before you were told about their power you were told about its conditions and drawbacks.
A long recharge time. A long stun that can't be avoided apart from doing really niche stuff that relies on survivors being stupid. A stun and loss of all power with one miss. Can't see blood or scratchmarks. Basic attacks drain the meter too.
Compare that with their predecessor, spirit, whose power is known to be amazing. Short recharge time, no stuns of any kind, basic attacks don't drain her power, can see scratchmarks.
You'd be forgiven for thinking that with those disadvantages legion would have the most insane power in the game right? Some sort of nurse/billy combo, going through walls and instadowning or whatever.
But actually it's zoom zoom gotta go kinda fast
P.s. their add-ons suck. Add-on dependent killer with crap add-ons, you love to see it.
That is basically bringing old legion with the same problems that he had but this time it's even worse for the survivors because the power now lasts 4 seconds longer and he is a 4.6 m/s killer. That isn't the way to change them.
you can't moonwalk as him anymore and he loses his power if he miss, so I think that's fine. Every killer have something that helps you catch a survivor except the legion, even bubba can use his rage attack to catch a survivor. We had a great example of killer without antiloop and slowdown - old freddy. The legion is kinda same, as old freddy it took 5 seconds to send a survivor to the dream state, while you can't hit him but almost every time 1 hit was guaranteed and massive slowdown, with legion you suffer from 4 seconds fatigue after using your power and slowdown is kinda meh nowadays, consider 2 mending addons nerfs and defalt mending speed nerf+can't apply sloppeh in frenzy. Its really hard to balance this killer. But balancing him around "skill" is kinda dumb because legion takes really low skill to use his power and giving him bonuses for hitting like 3-4 survivors in 1 frenzy use is bad because rng, survivors can spawn different from each other and it would be impossible to hit them all, we would have killer a.k.a pig, which based on luck.
I think you got the right idea. Imo Legion is the 2nd or 3rd worse killer in the game and feels very unrewarding playing them. They WILL need to be lethal but not that way.
Making a killer miss a hit isn't the type of mechanic that you should base balance on because there are many factors affecting that: latency, hitboxes, aim dressing, etc etc.
There are other ways to make legion lethal and make them chain hits without having lots of punishment and still being balanced.
I don't think there is the way to rework their power because the legion is just a bunch of teens who can only stab stab and stab everyone , so I don't think there is a way to change their power.I think devs will forget about this killer because they don't want to hear another complaints from community.
Did you know?: Devs said you shouldnt take any conclusion for such vague stats. Which i agree because they are indeed very vague.
I think there is a way.
See this rework that i made. It's very complex at first but then you see that it is simpler.
Not to specifically mention, but loss of On-Hit basic attack effects during frenzy was a yuge loss for legion
Why do you seem upset about the idea of one killer having mechanics altered to make them less irritating to play as? No-one's saying make them the next spirit, just make their power less unrewarding.
I wouldn't mind a trade-off usually except I'm not sure how many more penalities can be added to legion's power. Maybe a missed frenzy attack instantly powers the exit gates?
Actually you guys are the ones that insist on calling it a rework. The devs didn't call it one. The update was even called the "The Legion Update"
Contrast Freddy, which actually WAS called a rework.
No one reverts changes just because they changed their philosophy if they are good changes. Infinites are braindead like old legion.
By your logic the past year should be undone which makes no sense at all. 2 kills 2 escapes is a good metric but only when looking at a case by case scenario not by stats that depend on all ranks and maps. When matchmaking is finally fixed, they should see the high tier playerbase and see their games. And of course those changes should always take in account other levels of play, but the main focus should be to fix the issues of high level play.
Even tho this is a fun game, to make it fun you must remove the element of frustration of a character/mechanic and that is the 4 second cooldown power that isn't lethal, missing a hit, being a m1 killer in the end, etc etc.
Legion was changed from a bad Killer with an addon that made him busted, to a bad Killer with no busted addons.
Do remember that. He was bad before the update and was still bad after the update.
That is true. They should rework them or update them in a way to make his power lethal and give him chaining hits potential.
Forgot to say: The problem is that legion has been like this for over a year and people who like the game style need to keep playing like this and the devs still think that legion is fine, so they disagree with all of us. I can't understand it.
"Either their sticking to their metric or not. Make up your mind." ? Where is this coming from?
Almo was the one that said that their stats showed that legion is right in the middle. But they said before that we shouldn't take the stats into account. I'm really confused with it still.
You were the one saying that they should revert everything. I'm saying that they shouldn't revert everything and that is the flaw of your logic.
A thing that i think they should revert is the legion update, not everything. Stop putting words in my mouth.
If they end up doing good changes here and there even if their philosophy is wrong, they shouldn't revert THOSE changes.
You dont need to take a wild guess, the matter of discussion was that they dont need to revert everything.
Its useless to argue with you. I am the one picking my words... sure, bro.
You're turning the conversation around and telling me that i did what you did. Ill stop answering you because we're getting off topic with your logic.
It's not about stats. If changing the stun wouldn't impact their stats at all but increasing the enjoyment of playing them - why not just changing it?
The stun feels so long. And their power is already pretty punishing and not lethal.
I dont know that this sounds fun, i guess nurse is not fun to play against for a lot of people either but it sounds lime to me that you will just get downed by a legion when their power is active if they are good, no real chase interactions
You could be stunned for 5 or 6 seconds. Or just 4 💃