3 Seconds Is More Than Enough
I'm a Legion main and I like to see most of the threads that appear on the forum about the killer.
But one thing about them is that when anyone asks "Why did Legion get his fatigue increased to 4 seconds from 3?" the answer from the devs is always "Because they are a 4.6 m/s killer and the power would be too oppressive in chase and the survivor gets almost no time to run away to a pallet or window."
I got intrigued if it is really that bad to have a 3 seconds cooldown, so I decided to test that with a friend of mine. These videos are purely to measure the distance that the survivor gets when Legion cancels frenzy right behind the survivor so no mindgames or anything else like that matters here (in the second one i used shadowborn oops). I also recorded them in a kinda realistic scenario.
For the people who might say "But they had the speed boost from the hit" - I only cancelled the frenzy when I was very very close to the survivor so they had no speed boost there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcWjbyiy4-MI think that 3 seconds fatigue is more than enough for a survivor to run away to safety from the killer.
The cooldown add-ons could just be reworked into something completely different.
Tell me your opinion about this.
Comments
@Almo @Peanits
Thoughts?
vaulting pallets is one of the few things entirely unique to legion. just as the Executioner has the ability to hit through objects, nurse goes through walls, wraith invisibility etc. i would be very very sad if they removed it. it being tied to his power is how it should be and making his power harder to achieve balances it out.
obvs things shouldn't be balanced around missing hits or strikes, but nurse is done in such a way where missed hits are punished, and successful hits aren't punished as much. thats what im talking about with legion.
That being said, having a system where legion earns his power outside of frenzy (lets just say by injuring survivors though it could be over time etc) and then turns him into a far deadlier version of his current self, where he once he has his power, can vault pallets, down survivors fast with no attack cooldown for a short period of time. basically giving him the power to snowball on command similar to an oni, and ability to ignore loops like a nurse, but earned throughout normal organic killer gameplay.
If the devs wanted to keep him as they have now, the best way to buff him and make him easier to play and feel more organic and less "Stunny" would be to lower his loss of power stun concurrent to survivors injured during frenzy past 1 (ie the second survivor lowers it by 1s, 3rd by another second, and fourth by another second) rounding it out to if you injure all survivors in your frenzy to a 1s stun (with the cooldown addons being percentage based instead. this would promote multi hitting survivors, and a successful legion who manages to hit all survivors will be granted a lower stun time. 2 hitting a single survivor could also possibly lower the stun time down to 3s from 4 if you double hit them. (Ie if you double hit the last survivor you basically have no stun.)
I have some reworks on the forum and ALL of them include pallet vaulting. I said remove OR make it activate only in special occasions.
Nurse is a 3.92 m/s killer as legion is a 4.6 killer and can vault anything simply down you and he can catch you really easily because the power lasts 10 seconds. I don't feel that it is interactive gameplay.
EDIT: they already vault pallets faster in the power and that's a signature mechanic. Vaulting pallets is a bonus that can be achieved in certain situations.
I have 2 ideas to help:
1) For each Survivor that’s hit with Feral Frenzy, the Exhaustion duration is reduced by X amount. Rewards players who successfully hit multiple targets with Feral Frenzy rather than penalising them.
2) Mending starts on a shorter period but takes longer for the next Survivor hit during Feral Frenzy. Example, Mending could take 9 seconds on the first person hit, but takes 11 seconds on the second, 13 seconds on the third, and so on.
I like those ideas, but making the base fatigue shorter won't hurt anyone.
haha i just mentioned that first idea like 8 minutes before you did man! same wavelength i totally feel that
second one i feel could get annoying and also would be less useful. your more likely to go after the person you hit last in frenzy, so leaving them for a longer mend timer feels wasteful if im far more likely to be going for them.
true enough. but going back to what you mentioned before hand, what exactly do you count as a occasion worthy of granting a pallet vault? a pallet vault (atleast in my own opinion) is no more likely to grant a hit, then a regular vault, except when you immediately go into your power after someone throws down a pallet (when their usually healthy, and would just put them into deep wounds.) Vaulting a pallet when their injured to catch up to them is mostly useless in its current state due to the 4s cooldown coming out of your power (which they can then use to reach another pallet, another vault, or simply go right back over the pallet) to down them, so its mostly useful for countering early pallet throws and injuring people making mistakes.
don't get me wrong im very interested to see/hear your ideas mate, i just don't truly get what you mean by removing their ability to vault pallets outside of special circumstances, expecially without knowing those circumstances or the other buffs used to support this nerf. elsewise this just seems like a giant nerf to his basekit which already only really helps him get and keep people injured.
This rework is what i mean when i say that pallet vaulting should be only available in specific situations.
The rework is very hard to understand, maybe i could've expressed myself better than i did in the post but maybe you'll get it.
We're getting kinda off topic.
When I look at the average number of kills for Legion, it's right in the middle. They're not the best, they're not the worst. This is across all maps, all ranks. That's as much detail as I can go into on this.
So I'm just gonna personally take this as #########-all is gonna be done for Legion
So if the stats between all ranks show that something isn't that bad or that good no reasonable changes will be made even if something else proves the opposite? That is my way to read this.
Please correct me if im wrong.
What do you mean by this?
DbD is not supposed to be balanced around vetrean survivors. For new survivors, they need more time to think because they don’t know where pallets spawn or windows. So, people who don’t often play DbD struggle alot against legion.
Considering how broken the ranks are (veterans and total potatoes are put randomly with each other all the time), I really don't think the kill rate serves as an accurate measure.
By that logic every killer is punished because someone else doesn't know how to play the game properly. Also, newer legion players will lose survivors a lot when in the power, will miss a lot of hits and will lose the survivor in the fatigue... even with only 3 seconds. It happens for both sides.
Edit: Those newer survivors will eventually learn those things and finally run to defenses. Even 3 seconds fatigue gives plenty of time for the survivors to run.
Yeah...but that's with ranks being tossed in a blender..good players mixed with bad..which means lower average survivor stats than normal..
Every game should always be balanced around the best players. Otherwise the game isn't balanced. Imagine if Chess at a super high level had a 75% win rate for white, but at low level it was 75% for black. You'd still buff black, because at a high level the game is awful, and as players start to get better overall (which naturally happens with time) then the imbalance becomes obvious and the game is less likely to have staying power.
I know but due to lack brain cells Devs want the game to be balanced for people who don’t play DbD.
So when you guys release official stats on killers you always emphasize that we shouldn't base arguments around it because there is a lot of variables that go into it, but it's Ok for you guys to balance killers around those stats?
I think a cooler change would be to make it to where for each hit you get with frenzy the stun is shorter. -.75 seconds for each hit after the first one
Hit 1 : 4 seconds
Hit 2 : 3.25 second
Hit 3: 2.5 second
Hit 4: 1.75 seconds.
The stun reduction addons can get a change. Cold dirt will be straight -.75 second to stun. The other add on will increase the reduction 1 second per each hit.
So with the add on
Hit 1: 4 seconds
Hit 2: 3 seconds
Hit 3: 2 seconds
Hit 4: 1 second
Once again cold dirt is a flat reduction of the stun by .75.
I also thought about that and why not make it similar but with a lower cooldown?
1 hit and base fatigue: 3 seconds.
2 hits: 2.5 seconds.
3 hits: 2 seconds.
4 hits: 1.5 seconds.
Something like this.
The cooldown add-ons could be reworked into anything useful idk
Why?
I think the person was asking your thoughts on the idea of reducing the stun time from 4 to 3 but its good to know they are average
Wrong question. Whatever answer they give you would be speculation from a statistic they just told you.
I find it odd people talk so disparagingly about Legion when he does just fine. Stats show it. IME as a red rank survivor, Legions do well. 🤷
My friend is a red rank survivor with only 18 hours in DbD on record. We played KYF and taught him how to loop and he performs way better than those 1000 hours randoms.
It is of course a balance concern but its majorly a QoL concern. Getting a 4 second stun for a power that doesn't down survivors no matter what is very bad. The power has so many restrictions and so little room for error or good performance.
The stats that were mentioned in this thread are the same stats that the devs told us to not make assumptions about.
I find it odd people thinking that this is fine even after many people proving the opposite but who am i to judge?
Everything is speculation unless hard evidence is shown. Don't want speculation, show numbers that point to A, B, and C. Simply saying something without backing it up is speculation in itself.
Like i did in this post?
Ok?
I agree, I think the only problem are the Legions addons, that could reduce the cooldown to 2 seconds, which would be extreme. But they could simply reduce the numbers on those addons or just completely change the addons to have a different effect.
I think changing them is the right way, they are already bad enough.
I know. So why are you to ask them to justify the stats when we both know they can't literally go in and view all of the games to get that answer.
If it is a balance concern...it doesn't seem like the concern is valid. His kill rate isn't low. And a QoL concern that would advantage his functionality and kill rate is not really QoL as much as a buff to his game play. The fact that the killer's power is challenging to use effectively isn't necessarily a good argument for change. Nurse has always been more difficult to master - that's why Nurse mains are well respected (at least by me).
Making the statement that his kill rate is not abnormally low or below 'balance', while actually showing his kill rate, is not an assumption. It's recounting the facts provided by the people most qualified to provide that information. So, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.
I have yet to see anyone 'prove the opposite' about Legion being so weak and under-powered. If someone actually made one, I might be inclined to change my mind.
My bigger question is around that philosophy -- why is that as much detail as you can go into on it? I don't mean you specifically, since that's obviously a bigger policy than just one person. But why doesn't Behaviour share those kinds of statistics more freely? It would be interesting!
Like, I've heard you speak of how Self-Care has a high win rate, even in high ranks. Given how dim the view of that perk is here on this forum, I think it would be great to see quantifiable data that changes the overall thinking here, since we don't have the full picture and are just sitting here throwing darts at the wall half the time. I'm sitting here imagining -- what if, say, Wraith had a way higher kill rate than we think? Or what if Decisive Strike has a low win rate or something? This kind of data would be an awesome and fun window into your thinking when you make changes to the game.
The problem is that the nurse is high challenge, high reward. Legion is high challenge mid-low reward because their lethality has been taken away with the update. Stalling and knowing where the survivors are is only good if you can actually down them, otherwise they are useless. Being a m1 killer is a joke with most of the survivors that i get when matchmaking is up, you can feel the difference when the matchmaking is live or not.
Also the kill rate isn't low because they are focusing that on all ranks and all maps. Considering low ranks as a stat is already a flaw imo but how the matchmaking is screwed makes it even worse to track something.
I bet that legion has average kills because of many people like me that get a good amount of sacrifices per game but sweat their balls off like i do. You need to make little to no mistake with legion because using the power is bad for you most of the time. This is facts and no kill ratio can change that.
i believe that taking out that 1 second is more a QoL change than balance because with 3 or 4 seconds fatigue the survivor can run away to safety without a problem. This change just makes it less annoying for the killer to take the fatigue.
The videos that i showed are obvious in showing that even 3 seconds fatigue is more than enough for someone to run.
I just want the matchmaking to come and maybe those very vague stats can change into something that more accurately reflect what me and many other legion players experience.
The devs released stats a few months ago but then procceeded to say that we SHOULDNT take conclusions from those stats. And now it is confusing that a dev is presenting one as an argument. I don't understand it. 🤔
EDIT: I got intrigued why they cant show any further. I must be missing something...
My original question was concerning why they couldn't divulge more. It just hits a sore spot when they say they have info, but won't share it. So, 'why' can't it be shared. NDA?
I mean, everybody is gonna draw conclusions, that can't be helped. But it's not like we don't already do that anyway. My best guess is that they're gun-shy about supplying players with evidence of this-or-that trend and then having to listen to them endlessly #########, and go SEE?????? I KNEW BEHAVIOUR [SOMETHING SOMETHING], LOOK AT THIS STATISTIC. 😄
Would there be any reason besides a rework or doing absolutely nothing?
ooooooh....
NVM then. I thought you were asking something else
That given that response, they're most likely not gonna make any changes to Legion, or at least not any time soon.
Or rework them? They can't give information. The phrase is really ambiguous.
They honestly wouldn't have worded it as "this Killer sits directly in the middle" if they weren't implying that they think Legion is balanced enough for them not to be higher up on the list of priorities. Especially when they specify that it's consistent across all ranks and maps.
But the average kills show that nurse is the worst killer in the game by far, and that is objectively false. In fact, almost all of the statistics I see getting posted don't take into account the game behind the statistics: for example, hag is extremely powerful, yet suffers the lowest pick rate at high ranks. Freddy, despite being strong, has no right to be higher in both kill and pick rates for either of the aforementioned killers... But, he is an extremely easy and simplistic killer to grasp. Could that have something to do with it?
So perhaps the desire to stick to the average statistics is preventing people from seeing what skews the data. For example, legions ability to strip away a survivors initial health state, in conjunction with compulsive healing, make for an easy game against the bad survivors that are all too common amongst all ranks. Which is shown in the statistics as "legion do good" because the statistics do not take into account the skill of either the killer or the survivors.
I dont expect an answer. But please try to take into account the facts behind the statistics, not just the statistics themselves.
You summed it up perfectly. That's what i've been trying to say but i'm too sleepy xD
Yeah, unfortunately i think you're right :/
I already said, but maybe you didn't see it so i'm saying it again. Weren't stats like these that were shown in july and the devs told us NOT to make any conclusions based on it? And now they're using it as an argument. I'm really confused.
if the devs just reduce the fatigue(3.5s or 3s) and change cooldown addons to speed addons would be great.. :)