themirrortwin
themirrortwin
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@Mandy said:
This is by design - the locker blind immunity was to prevent the abuse from squads which made survivors with flashlights and two lockers untouchable. This is now not the case. A killer can still be blinded with a grab if a survivor is getting out of the locker (the whole locker pulling animation is different), even with a flashlight. And flashbangs are one time usage so not nearly as abusable as a flashlight was.
Hey Mandy, I checked the Patch 6.4.0 notes and read this:
"Killers are now immune to blindness while grabbing a Survivor out of a locker."
Was there another patch that I missed? When a survivor jumps into a locker (and stays there), survivors with flashbangs can rescue with 100% certainty with enough skill. If I go too far from the locker, I reset the chase. It was a horrible experience.
Or is it that, with proper timing, the flashbang blind occurs right as the locker grab animation ends hence avoiding the immunity? If so, I would appreciate a half a second to look away rather than be bullied by skilled survivors.
Additionally, I do not appreciate the language, "so not nearly as abusable" from your post. In my opinion, the DBD developers should take up the philosophy that survivor bully squads are unacceptable. There is a difference between doing your objective and playing well versus abusing skill to make a killer player's experience unenjoyable. As a killer (and survivor) with many hours in the game, I often get put against these squads and it makes me want to leave DBD. If there was a better alternative, I probably would have done so by now.
Thank you for helping me understand the patch notes and possibly directing me to other patch notes that changed this to align with what you are describing.
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All my recent games versus Skull Merchant have had the same formula:
The first 4 gens go with 1 or 2 hooks.
Then we spend ages trying to pressure the final gen. It is tedious and boring and she never committs to chases unless there is a dead zone and she can hook.
We finally get the last gen. Someone may have died in this long, tedious, boring, unfun period.
When the final gen is done typically it is easy to get out.
The point is....
Skull Merchant == 3 gen == Unfun, Boring Games
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The thing that annoyed me was in the Dev notes when they said, we are "looking at perks that rhyme with scherruption."Their joke wasn't funny it was annoying. It's as if they don't realize that EVERY DBD GAME REQUIRES A KILLER PLAYER and that they deserve better game experiences too.
How about looking at a perk that is called dead hard.
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Honestly, the dead hard nerf would be easy. Just don't give them a free sprint burst from being hit and then survivors would actually need to use it around loops.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
I also have been seeing a lot more of this. I don't mind it though. It's easier to deal with than all gen perks. Especially as the knight? Weird you had trouble with it.
"Especially with the knight?" Are you serious? Do you understand how the console players abused No Mither, Boil Over, Flip Flop, and dead zones?
I honestly want to hear how the knight specifically would counter this situation. What, put a guard on top of them when they are on the ground? They simply wait until the guard despawns and then stand up with No Mither.
I want to undersatnd your comment, but it honestly doesn't make sense to me.
If it helps, let me further clarify a tactic they used. It was Eerie of Crows. There is 1 hook on the second floor. Once it is gone (say best case in exchange for 1 hook via Breakdown), there is no way to reach another hook if a survivor runs up there with these perks. And leaving them is also not an option because they can pick themselves up.
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Are they back? I just had a set of survivors DC due to getting paired with a nurse?
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We desparately need the DC penalty back. It is making solo survivor games unplayable.
If we get a nurse or blight, immediately DC as soon as it is discovered - screwing the team.
If a survivor teammate gets ouplayed, DC, and the team is screwed.
This game has become unplayable due to the lack of the penalty. I'm going to a different game for a while until they turn it back on. I can't believe the developer's have to rediscover the importance of a DC penalty over and over.
And yes, I understand that hackers can hold games hostage with the DC penalty, but that is a DEVELOPER responsibility to find a solution to cheating. The DC penalty forced PLAYERS to have responsibilities to stay in the game and fight for their teammates in fair games as designed. Without it, why should I play if I have no garauntee my teammates will tough it out rather than rage quit at the mildest of inconveniences?
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It is so obvious that the developers don't care about the killer experience, despite a killer player being required for EVERY GAME.
The developers constantly talk about killers and killer perks "overperforming," but let me ask, have you every head them use that terminology on any survivors? Boons? It's absurd. Killers are gonna leave this game as soon as a better alternative arrives, which I think is soon.
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This thread is right on the nose. The Devs full on abandoned their killer base. It will be detrimental to DbD in the long run, especially with new competitor games coming out.
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Excellent suggestions! I just hope any change will be implemented (Spoiler: no change will be implemented for at least 10 months. Think back to Original Decisive Strike and how long it took to change it).
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I agree to drop the M1 requirement! Simple quality of life buff!
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"Perks to counter anti-looping powers" - So are you saying that Dead Hard, Balanced Landing, Lithe, Smash Hit, Sprint Burst don't counter Anti-Looping. They give you extra distance for free.
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The silent bug (where a survivor makes no sound on the floor) has been in the game almost since beta.
The devs don't care.
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It haven't felt any changes to my killer or survivor games.
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@MandyTalk Will there be a chance to provide feedback somewhere? Like a survey or something? How long will the test go on for? I would give up knowing ranks if games felt more fair and consistent in matchmaking.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2332539#Comment_2332539
Can you explain how it is that it will hurt the "average player" in any way? Here is what i'm saying.
Lets say for example, you have a loop that is extremely strong in the hands of a high level player and they can waste minutes of a killers time. Now let's say another survivor who isn't so good, goes down in 20 seconds at this loop. If you nerf the loop to make it so the high level player can't waste minutes of a killers time at this loop anymore, it will be fine. The survivor who goes down in 20 seconds is still going to go down in 20 seconds. It won't negatively affect them.
Here as a bit from a video that explains this in detail, granted it is for TF2, the premise is the same.
That is a bad analogy. Average survivors struggle with looping. If you say nerfed god pallets, or long loops with little to no counter play, then average survivors would not be able to complete all the gens and escape. Survivor sided loops allow average survivors to stall the killer. Thus, when I play with my casual friend, even he can run to the killer shack, drop the killer shack, and make it to another loop to at least try. Without these kinds of loops, average survivors go down too fast to destroy entire games. That's what I'm saying.
Balancing for the high ranks now would probably make the large majority of survivor (recall that only <15% of survivors have even made rank 1) have a less enjoyable experience and possibly leave the game.
Instead, a competitive mode and a casual mode should be created.
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Personally, I hate high level survivors. They abuse the game. They've been trained to! It is so frustrating.
But, fundamentally, if we balance at the high ranks, then tons of survivors (the majority of survivors are bad and can't even do the basic loops) will die. The game will be fair for skilled survivors, but for the average survivor player who is not good (70-80%), they will suffer.
I wish there was a fix for this, but it isn't clear.
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Blast mine as well. It is Brutal for poor wraith.
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@Edgars_Raven said:
I dont care what happens to the rest of the natch, that person is not using the key
I feel the same way. Keys are free passes for survivors to avoid doing their objectives. They hurt the killer (unfair to his or her hard work) and other survivors (unfair if you aren't in the "in" crowd)
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@zarr said:
I know many people won't like to hear this, but tru3talent is not as good a killer player as Oracle are survivor players. I would even argue he is fairly far from. I don't even need to go into details of the many fairly basic and more advanced mistakes he made here, it suffices to look at the fact that he missed basic attacks multiple times. He's an above-average killer player, but also not too much more than that from all I've seen.
Oracle has been 2-4k'd in tournaments plenty of times. Nurse, Spirit and Blight (at least prior to the flick nerf) consistently 2-4k in tournaments, and even a variety of other killers are still viable enough given that they also usually can kill around 2 survivors, with 3 and 4ks not being impossible. It also has to be noted that while survivors in these tournaments have perk restrictions, there are also severe add-on restrictions for most killers.
At the very top level of tournament competition, the game is certainly more-so leaning toward still being survivor-sided, even despite the consistent, substantial balance shifts benefitting killer play that have been happening throughout the past years. That said, even at that very top level it is not nearly as survivor-sided as people make it out to be, whatsoever. Again, two to four kills happen frequently in tournaments, I have personally taken stats on more than 10 tournaments and the average was slightly above 2 kills in most of them. Map and killer selection as well as perk restrictions do obviously play into this, some of the killer characters are absolutely too weak and deserving of buffs, but the fact of the matter is that tournament DbD is being played at a level that is... almost non-existently rare to be seen in public matchmaking. A one-in-a-million-matches-type of situation, or something thereabouts. So for around 99% of actual gameplay happening in this game, this survivor-sidedness of top-level competition holds almost no meaning. So much so that the game is in fact considerably killer-sided in its main, public matchmaking mode. The stats clearly show that, it can also be seen by the fact that competent killer players almost never lose public matches (on the contrary, they can go on 4k killing sprees of hundreds of games in a row), and even top-level players themselves think the game in public matchmaking is laughably killer-sided. They play crossplay-off EU matchmaking if they play matchmaking at all, and even there where they queue into a decidedly more "competitive" pool of players, they win their killer matches most of the time.
Only around 5% of all public matches even have parties of 4 players, and of those 5%, an even smaller portion is actually even using voice communications - and of that smaller portion, an even smaller portion is actually even composed of 4 skilled players that play in ways even comparably as efficient and effective as those tournament teams, coordinating their loadouts and strategies, having practiced call-outs, and such. It's exceedingly rare.
And here's something else people usually don't recognize about tournament play: the performance ceiling for survivors in tournaments grows by a tremendous amount, whereas the killer perfomance ceiling does not really change whatsoever. What separates a killer playing in a tournament from one playing outside of it? Basically nothing. It is still 1 player playing a specific killer, with whatever perks he chooses to, making all his own decisions, applying all his own skills. Sometimes killers will be in voice chat with their teammates and that can obviously help, since they can brainstorm macro-game decisions and some micro-game plays, but that is not the norm in tournaments, most killers just play for themselves, and sometimes aren't even allowed to talk to teammates. What separates a usual survivor lobby from a tournament team? Basically everything. First of all their combined individual skill is something you will almost never see in public games, then they can coordinate their loadouts down to the last add-on, they practice together all the time and have prepared strategies and developed natural synergies, they use voice communications in highly efficient and effective manners, their teamplay is exponentially better than that of just any random matchmaking squad, they regularly even know beforehand what killer they will go up against and on which map. These are all things you will basically never find in a matchmaking match, it's not like these tournament teams actually go and queue into public matches and let alone then play like that. The killers on the other hand? You will get a tournament-level killer side in a match every time such an individual decides to queue into public matchmaking, and they will actually usually play to win.
More simply put, any individual player can in theory become a tournament-level killer player, but no individual player can even come close to presenting a tounament-level survivor side - for that you need 4 individual players coming together who all are not only tournament-level skilled individually, but also have that degree of practice and coordination and so on as a collective.
So the fact that killers can still compete in tournaments despite the fact that survivor teams gain so much more from the tournament setting in terms of performance potential is if anything impressive, and shows how strong killers can be if the player is really good at the game. And just to note, in tournaments, killer vs. survivor balance does not even matter all that much, because the real competition is in performing better than the opposing team's killer/survivors, it is not about killers performing better than survivors or vice versa in itself. For instance, if the killer is Wraith and one team manages to get 6 hook stages with one kill, that can still totally be enough for a victory if they manage to give the opponent's Wraith less than that.
This isn't about Tru3, it is about the game having a survivor side bias.
Regarding the discussion of tournaments, I assume you are referencing this: https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/irx8cn/survivor_escape_rates_are_only_496_in_hexys_dbd/
My conclusion from this is that only a subset of killers are selected for tournament play because only a subset has a real chance to get 2+ kills. Sure, there is that odd 1 game for some of the killers for the surprise factor, but it is obvious that they are not competitive over many games. Additionally, this avoids the qualitative parts of the tournament (How many killers were camping hooks or no-ed? Especially in those 1 games).
You are correct in saying that the majority of the public games are killer sided. The honest truth is that the average survivor player is not skilled and make many mistakes. You can see this in the game wide statistics that behavior releases from time to time. However, I have never seen behavior release these results stratified by rank or MMR, to get a sense of how games go with survivors who know what they are doing.
Why should we care about balancing at the high ranks? Because for the 4% of killers (check achievement stats) who get to rank 1, MMR puts you against these types of teams frequently. Are they as organized as oracle? or as efficient? Of course not. But, they do abuse the survivor sided loops and perks which the lower skilled survivors desperately need. There is a spectrum, and facing teams on this spectrum is annoying because optimal survivor play feels really bad for the killer player. The killer experience is unforgiving. If you make 1 small mistake (for example true missing hits he should have got), then you lose so much time. These top killers in this tournament have practiced for hours to avoid even making 1 small mistake with Blight, Nurse, and Spirit. What I am saying is that for the above average killer base, the top tier MMR/Rank 1 experience is not fun because of the imbalance.
When you say, "only 5% of public matches even have parties of 4 players," you don't acknowledge the power of a 2 man or 3 man playing together on voice. Skilled 2 mans are common at the higher levels, and skilled three man aren't as rare as you think. They don't call out like Oracle, but they sure do communicate. The number of players on voice chat is likely very high for this game. Sure, you might no have 4 mans, but you will have many 2 mans on voice, and some on 3. They create that spectrum I discussed above.
"The killer performance ceiling does not really change whatsoever." - That is just wrong. New survivor perks to adapt to (blast mine, flash bang, old DS) and new killer perks to incorporate into ever more efficient builds (Star struck), increase the killer ceiling as the game progresses. And I think you overstate the survivor ceiling. They need to practice the top meta killers, who all are forced to run a small subset of perks. Killers are more restricted in what they can run at the top levels simply due to the pressure. This lowers the survivor ceiling and does not leave an endless open sky.
Honestly, going back to the Oracle vs. Tru3 games - Oracle should (and did) win all 5 games. What frustrates me is how badly and easily they bullied the wraith, abused the many pallets and loops, and practically suffered no hooks. In my opinion, DBD should be a vibrant game with many killers that can consistently compete at the top levels. Survivors should have to make more reads at loops so that killers don't have to depend on abilities (like nurse, blight, and spirit) that force survivors to make difficult reads. I don't have all the answers, but I do think the survivor-sided imbalance at higher levels of skills is an issue to address in some form.
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I agree with the OPs post, but I will say that I do think the DEVs have been slowly getting better. I do think they are much better at listening than they once were. I think this post is an excellent compass for future improvements to DBD and I hope they listen closely. They might!
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And preferable this information stored as a text file that can be shared and analyzed by the community. For example, think of HotsLogs for heroes of the storm.
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It happened to me too. For all killers and survivors. It was really annoying as I had my desired load outs on each of them!
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I don't understand why the Devs don't make a normal and competitive mode. They could balance competitive mode dramatically differently than normal mode.
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Honestly, I wouldn't mind a perk like this. Sometimes RNG is awful for pallets. For example, in one of my killer games, three pallets spawned near the KILLER SHACK. It was absurd!
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Folks, the following has been well established: Killers are stronger at lower ranks and MMR and survivors are stronger at higher MMRs. Why is this still a topic on this forum.
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@LiunUK said:
here are the stats of what the ds nerf did
Anytime I see this game wide stats I get frustrated. Have you played with the majority of survivors? They can't properly loop. DS was a problem for a subset of players (skilled survivors) who abused it. Behavior doesn't release these numbers stratified by MMR for a reason.
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Survivor Perk: Bitter Pragmatism
This perk starts with three tokens. Each time you are put into the injured state from a healthy state, consume 1 token and you will not leave any Scratch Marks for the next 8/10/12 seconds. This perk deactivates when all tokens are consumed.
Strategy: I've always wished I could make a build featuring calm spirit, Iron will, and a perk like this. The killer hits the survivor, wipes their blade, and the survivor vanishes without a sound! Three perks is a heavy price for this tactic, but I would love it for the memes! Besides, players could drop calm spirit and instead put in lucky break (thereby still leaving space for an exhaustion perk or urban evasion) and truly vanish after one scream with no sound, scratch marks, or blood.
I don't think this is broken as it can only trigger 3 times. Additionally, it creates a mind game with the killer, where the killer can still find you even with these perks trying to hide your presence by carefully searching the area.
I gave it a little more time than comparable perks like Poised and the recent Self-Preservation because those have more opportunities to trigger. I felt that this perk would get a few more seconds because it can only trigger 3 times.
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There is no need for a nerf. For a long time, Bubba was considered the worst killer. Then they gave him small buffs and now he is considered mid tier. Bubba is beatable by classic looping skills. If you are running your TL walls, jungle gyms, shack, and other tiles properly, then he won't feel overpowered. My recommendation is to pick a favorite survivor streamer and watch some of their games against Bubba to see what I'm talking about.
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The funniest part of the OP is the "pressured by some of the community." The community can't even pressure them to fix bugs or balance the game. Do you think "some of the community" have unknown powers of the Devs!?
Is this even going to be a LGBTQIA+ chapter? Based on the teasers!?
The Point is, the Devs are literally going to do what they want to do regardless of community pressure. That is what makes this whole thread super trollish for me.
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I've felt this way for a long time, and I am a killer main. It punishes new survivors who want to save their friends but they haven't learned the proper timing window. Thank you for this post!
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@KateMain86 said:
Another reminder that keys are conditional. I can count on 1 hand the amount of times I actually see a key get to be used after a week's worth of playing. Keys are not a problem! Killers letting enough gens get done so the survivor can use them is the problem. Ever heard of ruin and kicking generators? I hear they make keys take longer to be able to get used along with gen pressure. It just amazes me that people who play killer go into a match with so much power over the survivors and yet find it in them to come on the forums and feel the need to complain about keys being a problem. Maybe the problem is you and not the key?
Make it to red ranks sweetie. Then we can talk. At your level, survivors are so bad the broken nature of keys is needed.
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@KingFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1900880#Comment_1900880
Keys are more complex to change than Mori's are. With Mori's its a simple matter of changing the hook requirement. With keys, they have to figure out what to do with them first.
Add a cast time to open the hatch (about the same as opening a chest). Done in the sun. That is a simple fix.
There may be more complex better solutions, but even that simple fix would be good.
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Man, the comments xD
So y'all are saying, "We know keys are broken, just deal with it."
Well, I hope yall get keyed in your next games and you deal with it. I'm out
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Dev's have to hand hold the majority of survivors in this game. Keys are just an extension of that truth.
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That you can't hide nearby while making a ton of noise. The killer will "find" you.
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Its because the survivors realize that by not doing gens they get an undying + ruin nerf.
Play badly survivors, the DEVs will only buff you.
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Blood Warden. The survivors were tea bagging in the exit gate and I got them both. In the end game chat, they flamed me so hard saying Blood warden is a "broken" perk and that only losers play it! LOL
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Exactly! The hatch just needs a short cast time that makes noise. Easy fix.
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Keys are training wheels for baby survivors. They can't escape normally so they bring keys.
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These are good suggestions. I hope the developers are taking note!
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@Darkwraith13 said:
As a survivor and I am on the hatch and it says "jump through hatch" and my character starts the animation I should be able to escape. But no a killer can come up mid animation and just slam it shut. Like ######### is this behavior? Killers can also body block the the action button but a survivor can't...? @Peanits
Boy, in the past killers could grab you as you were jumping through the hatch. They removed that feature and just gave them priority when closing the hatch.
Man, have you ever been pulled out while jumping in the hatch? I have. Survivors cried so much they removed the feature.
But honestly, hatch favors the survivor side. There is no reason to be complaining.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1822760#Comment_1822760
this is like the only idea that fits the criteria in this thread.
being able to deny a SWF the ability to communicate where the killer is going after a hook would be ideal. could honestly make it a default feature (cloak the killer for 5-10 seconds after you're hooked).
This is an excellent point. 5-10 seconds of aura blindness on the hook could be a nice default.
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Here is my own suggestion for a perk to counter SWF:
Eager for More - After you hook a survivor, if there are no other survivors within your terror radius, you move 10% faster for the next 10 seconds. Otherwise, any nearby survivors will scream, revealing their location.
In the case you hook a solo on the other side of the map, this helps you get across the map to protect that gen they are rushing.
If his SWF friend is hanging around, they scream and you chase them off.
I feel like 10% faster wouldn't hurt solo that much, who like to spread out and also hide. It is a thought.
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Also, to the guys saying it can't be done, that is why I made this post as a CHALLENGE.
Get those creative juices flowing!
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@lucid4444 said:
Desolation - Whenever you hook a survivor they are completely blind - no aura readings, and cannot see anything other than their player model.
Solo survivors that got hooked won't mind too much, all they can do is wiggle if the killer is near. SWF can't communicate where the killer is or where he's going.
This is an excellent suggestion. This definitely should be a perk!!!!
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An easy feature would be a crafting system. I have a bunch of addons I will never use. It would be nice to change them into addons I enjoy using.
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I agree. In fact, I think the hatch mechanic needs to be completely reworked.
As killer, you may not wish to slug the third, but to get the fourth you have to slug (or give them a free 50-50 for the hatch). Additionally, suppose 3 gens are done by the time 2 survivors are sacrificed. Then the killer gets punished by 2 survivors on comms looking for the hatch.
This is the part of the game that annoys me the most.
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I'm mad not because of the Mori change (which I think is fair, fun, and asethetic) but because keys weren't changed at the same time.
Keys (and comms) let survivors abuse keys just as bad as the old Moris with no limit.
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I also found this to be true on my prestige 3 clown. All the green perks no longer appear in loadout for clown (who has all of them unlocked!)