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@Phasmamain said:
Sprint burst and dead hard need some changes but otherwise they are fine
This and the above post kinda make a point. The other perks need a situation for them to be useful. I guess it really just is Dead Hard and Sprint Burst? Although honestly I wouldnt mind there being some extra requirement for them just to give survivors something else to do besides gens.
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@EvilJoshy said:
I remember when there was no exhaustion mechanic. You could stack perks like BL, SB ect and get to use them all.
I remember this too now that you mentioned it. I think I had locked this memory away from the trauma.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
"Survivors getting freebies for doing nothing..."
Meanwhile .....*looks at your profile icon picture*
https://media1.tenor.com/images/59e7f3ac6786f9c86e030d80ebd2544d/tenor.gif?itemid=13992209
Hah! Good point! Though I don't actually run noed unless im doing a no way out & bloodwarden build!
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@GannTM said:
Only exhaustion perk that needs a change is Dead Hard. Every other one is fine and are strong enough worth using.
Ah but the problem im raising is not that they are not worth using. Its that the survivor does not need to contribute anything to receive the benefits of their Exhaustion perk. Making these perks have a requirement for survivors to gain their benefits would be more in line with their modern perk design. Work on a gen xnumberofseconds/sit in that locker etc
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2394334#Comment_2394334
Tunneling shows a lack of skill, and yes Genrushing does too. Genrushing is boring, and tunneling is boring. Both are unnecessary. Not tunneling doesn't mean being nice. I really only have an issue with off-hook tunneling, where you can be rescued with BT and the killer will tunnel you for a good 30 - 60+ seconds just because.
Genrushing and tunneling are core problems, so no amount of balancing will fix them. Peer pressuring killers, and survivors, into playing this less like an esport is the only way and can only be good for the game.
Don't misunderstand; the game needs to be fun for both killers and survivors. Tunneling causes Genrushing, and Genrushing causes Tunneling; neither of which is fun for either side. It just results in very boring and unengaging gameplay becoming standard practice.
Tunneling nor Genrushing shows a lack of skill. It shows a lacking variety in the gameplay. People gravitate towards things that are too powerful as a strategy or tool to not be played without.
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@CluelessWanderer said:
Tunneling to me is when the Killer waits for the unhook nearby, does not go for the unhooker at all, and just tunnels down one survivor over and over until he's out of the game.
There have been times when I have thrown myself in front of the Killer, trying to take hits to get him off a freshly unhooked team mate. I'm not doing it as a strategy, I'm doing it because I feel bad for the player not getting a chance to do a damn thing. It sucks to leave a match, depip, never touch a generator etc because the Killer wants EZ 4k. Unfortunately, it seems every other Killer is doing this now (or maybe always was like this) and that's why we all must run the same perks: BT, DS, etc
This sums up the state of the game. DS/BT should be basekit. Also most survivor perks should have a requirement for them to become active. Including most Exhaustion perks.
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@derppug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2394537#Comment_2394537
Alright, you are clearly showing that talking to you is pointless. So, :) I'll just leave it here. (Shame there's no mute button on here).
If you can check the bias at the door, maybe we can continue!
at this point there are more serious issues to consider anyway. Sure those perks are strong in combination but considering the survivors always run the same boring small pp build themselves there really arent that many viable perk setups for killers anymore.
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1 more for killers. Survivors have all they need already.
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@malatruse said:
How would that work? Like if hoarder spawns 2 additional vaccine cases but with lower rarity vaccines 😂
Hoarder also reveals people opening cases. Which for Vaccine cases they don't but they should. They DO warn when they pickup the Vaccine but I think thats already a addon for the guy
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@[Deleted User] said:
The game is only balanced around regression perks? I wouldn't agree with that. I've been playing for nearly 400 hours, killer mostly, and i've reached rank 4 without pop goes the weasel or hex ruin. In fact i find them kind of boring. They literally slow down the game. I'd rather just use options to kill them faster
I agree. At everything below red ranks the game is fine. Its when you reach the 4-1 area that the game becomes all about optimization. If you aint running a optimized build or a very powerful killer you will always have a bad time.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/265101/the-regression-perks
The survivors would need a 5th exhaustion perk slot since the entire survivor game is built around running them.
Sure why not. Oh wait they have a united cooldown. This argument is a poorly written strawman.
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@WishIcouldmain said:
Eruption currently looks nice, but they need to buff Surge and Oppression.
Oppression really should not give a skill check to counter its effect. It could have some uses if the skill check did not exist.
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@NekoTorvic said:
I honestly wish they gutted most regression perks and then balanced the game around not having them. I think something like surge or eruption should be as strong as regression perks get and they should not stack with each other.
I kind of agree with the sentiment honestly. But then again if they absolutely have to keep the perks then might as well give them a dedicated perk slot so that killers can always run them without having to compromise interesting or fun builds just to have a decently even game.
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I need to add to this. All hatches have invisible barriers around them that stop the blight from dashing through them
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and a bump
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@Hamburgerlar said:
He said a good go to for weak killers.
I'm sorry that when you get tunneled that they're not playing by the rules in the survivor's guide for killer.
Now give me better incentive not to take the easy win. Explain to me why the killer should burden himself by forcing himself into a disadvantage?
Some killers don't care about the points. We just want everyone on the opposing side dead. It's on the same level as survivors wanting to speedrun the map and get out alive with a four man.
Either way both sides usually don't want to lose due to bullcrap.
The idea was to get incentives not to bullrush survivors out of the game. But well nobody cares anyway. So the topic should be tagged for deletion. Toxic playstyles and mechanics are fundamentally apart of this game and they are never getting changed anyway.
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Object is a super sweaty perk. And I hate it.
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Yeah. This bug needs to get killed. BHVR plz get the entity on it already.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1776533#Comment_1776533
if you feel that you are being tunneled against too much and its ruining your survivor experience join the dbd discord and play in a swf with the 20-30 4 man groups on there at any time, as said playing smart is the best counter so best to know you have teamates that also play smart
Sounds quite sweaty and very tryhardy. Nah I just wont play survivor outside of a few rare situations where one of my friends is playing. I'm just gonna give up on this topic. Tunneling is staying for better or worse. Trying to change that is pointless.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/205467/the-achilles-heel-that-is-tunneling
this is just a bit a lot wrong
"Tunnelling is not de-incentivized" the treat of ds making you lose a good amount of time and pressure is a good reason to not tunnel especially since its extremely common because of how easy it is to abuse
The person who gets unhooked is always the most vulnerable guy easy prey that you can easily track saved in front of the killer makes easy pickings, use babysitter, iron will, or bt to give them a better chance or just divert the killers attention to yourself or just don't save while the killers right there to take advantage of the situation
There is no good reason for a killer to try and spread his hooks across the survivor team true
Tunneling literally has the same counter as camping, just do gens at a fast rate while the killer tunnels and keep mounting pressure and leave the guy on hook for a bit instead of saving right away so they can die faster
High-ranked players don't Camp and neither should they Tunnel (false, just because you are high ranked doesn't mean you have to hold yourself to a higher standard of play, people should still play how they want (except freddys no one should play freddy))
Tunnelling is something that should not be getting fixed by having Perks compensate for the lack of gameplay incentives that would discourage tunnelling. (In other words, lets try to find ways to make tunneling not the most optimal strategy without gutting a killers map pressure) killers tunnel to create map pressure, why would gutting map pressure deter a strategy meant to create map pressure
Incentivize a killer to hook many people to slowdown game progression: Add a de-buff to the individual survivor that slows their ability to repair generators according to how many times they have been hooked something akin to 10/15% and up per hook (no there is enough slowdown)
something that debuffs the entire survivor crew for every fresh hook on a fresh survivor. This Debuff could even be something more powerful since it would only last for the duration of that person being hooked or until a health state shift happens? (wow slowing survivor progression thats like what the idea behind tunneling is
Punish tunneling by coldly taking away Emblem ranks according to how much tunneling is happening (this would just lead to more lower rank tunneling and give high ranked killers an easy way to derank to bully low ranked survivors)
protect yourself and teammates better don't expect the game to fundamentally change because a strategy since when the game released is still effective
Its effective. My issue isint the fact that its effective though. The problem I have with it is that its just a ######### and toxic experience. I mean you are correct that people playing smartly would remove this problem from existence. But its a problem because people cannot be trusted.
I dunno anymore man. I guess toxic ######### is just to be accepted and not changed because its been there from the start? Because its somehow a good thing?
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Well a dozen of my responses just vanished like farts in the wind so I will just respond to several of you in this single post.
@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1775169#Comment_1775169
This. Survivors are so coddled by DS and BT they just lost the sense of a safe unhook. I unhook safely and if I hear the killer coming back I'll run away from the other survivor to leave scratch marks and draw the aggro. It kinda goes out the window as well, though, when my injured teammate also runs instead of walking away like a fool -_-
Also I don't get this post saying basically tunneling is optimal for the killer to do, but also shaming them for doing it. Make tunneling not optimal should be the change, not throwing something else in to punish killers for doing the smart play. Unless we're also going to punish survivors for sitting on gens. I don't want either of those. Furthermore the incentive would have to be strong if we even want to consider it because why would I go for a 15% debuff on one survivor when I can make that 100% by killing them.
Drawing killer aggro works if the killer himself wants to play nicely. The problem lies in the fact that the unhooked guy is the weakest link in the chain because they were the one that got caught early. The fact that the survivors teammates have to work hard to draw aggro from the killer and the killer can just actively try to ignore them doing so adds to the problem of the survivor being tunnelled feeling powerless. Maybe something akin to not bleeding and not giving out grunts of pain for some short duration of 10 seconds or something would help alleviate the issue? And the idea is of course to make tunneling not the optimal play hence why I was hoping that some debuffs for hooking different survivors would work wonders.
@Moundshroud said:
There are plenty of counters, not the least of which is safe rescues in the first place. The second is your fellow Survivors can body block and take some hits. Then there is always simply looping well and getting away.
Those are all things completely out of the tunnelled guys control. Depending on map RNG you cant loop anything nor can you hide because you are the loudest man on earth. Secondly taking hits and body blocking works but there is a point where a killer just hits you for Save the Best for Last and just keeps tunneling but now with extra stacks. Its a problem that there is no way to distinguish strategy and malice in tunneling since currently there is no distinction between the two. Also "unsafe hooks" can be countered by people deciding to just kill themselves on hook and that sure as ######### ain't funny for anyone.
Also I agree with the idea that game pace is kinda all over the place currently. Since maps are either Wide (Survivor sided bar a few exceptions) or High (Killer Sided bar a few exceptions) the problem really is pressure versus travel distance honestly. Big wheat maps are hated by everyone, survivors hate it because there is jack-######### to work with and killers because if they ain't playing someone who can cross the whole map in a few seconds with their ability then they take forever to patrol gens. There really are only two ways to fundamentally fix game pace in this game: Slow down gen progression or finally find that happy medium in map size that the devs seem to think exists somewhere (this would mean axing or reducing the size of some maps and increasing the size of others). But I feel like I'm starting to fall off-topic so lets keep Game pace as its own discussion as much as possible.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1775169#Comment_1775169
This. Survivors are so coddled by DS and BT they just lost the sense of a safe unhook. I unhook safely and if I hear the killer coming back I'll run away from the other survivor to leave scratch marks and draw the aggro. It kinda goes out the window as well, though, when my injured teammate also runs instead of walking away like a fool -_-
Also I don't get this post saying basically tunneling is optimal for the killer to do, but also shaming them for doing it. Make tunneling not optimal should be the change, not throwing something else in to punish killers for doing the smart play. Unless we're also going to punish survivors for sitting on gens. I don't want either of those. Furthermore the incentive would have to be strong if we even want to consider it because why would I go for a 15% debuff on one survivor when I can make that 100% by killing them.
Safety hooking works like that if the survivor you just unhooked has something like Iron will to deny their massive cries of pain. Maybe there simply should be a small period maybe 10 or so seconds of time where a unhooked survivor doesn't bleed and moan so much that they get the opportunity to atleast attempt to escape the killer. But as mentioned elsewhere the problem comes down to map pressure. If they made it so that a unhooked survivor is difficult to re-down then what would be worth giving back in compensation to the killer to help them keep up pressure even without having to tunnel one person down to the ground?
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@NekoTorvic said:
Repairing a generator is the easiest thing in the game aside from just being AFK. Until repairing generators actually requires some measure of effort, I do not care what killer players do to make the game easier on themselves.
That being said, I understand how tunneling can be quite unpleasant and annoying same as camping. I think punishing tunnelers on its own is a good way to get a bunch of killers to not even touch the game again.
The way to fix it is by making game pacing more reasonable, and going on multiple chases, against multiple people more rewarding, and then you can actually punish tunneling, because at that point, only people who do it out of malice would remain.
I couldn't care less about Blood Points if my matches are lasting 5 minutes because survivors AFK on gens. It should be a tangible, in-game incentive to make killers want to go for multiple targets.
About your ideas specifically:
-Your idea of making hooks work like PH's cages would completely destroy the potential of any killer to exert control and pressure over specific areas of the map. Killers with low mobility will be unable to lockdown an area by hooking strategically between a 3 or 4 gen, meaning they will be at a massive disadvantage from the get go against killers with more mobility. During mid to late game killers who havent killed at least 1 or 2 people might as well just give up entirely, because even if they get a survivor down, all survivors need to do is unhook and heal, reset and the killer has 0 pressure again.
-A debuff to hooked survivors could be interesting, but flat gen speed reduction can be pretty unpleasant. Gens are boring. Holding M1 for longer is not the way I'd go about fixing how fast they can go. Maybe skillchecks could be harder similar to lullaby? you get a massive reduction in skill check warning cuz your character is clumsier cuz they're wounded? Also just a flat speed reduction will make late game almost unwinnable for survivors, especially if the killer managed to secure a 3 gen.
Also maybe getting a speed boost after hooking every new survivor? kind of like devour hope? Maybe not as strong, something like 5% for like 10 seconds? that way it incentivizes even low mobility killers to move away towards other survivors and they will also think "i need to get the best use out of my speed boost! it might even make my next chase just that little bit easier, at least for the first hit" It rewards them for playing well and incentivizes them to go for other survivors.
-The emblem thing, I don't think is a good idea flat out. I can tell you I would much rather have games that last a decent amount by tunneling someone out of the game early, than be rank 1 and risk survivors finishing gens in 2 seconds...Now imagine killers that actually know how to end chases in 20 seconds or less against decent survivors going against lower ranks, because, as much as people like to pretend killers that tunnel are incompetent, there are killers who have strong chase, but still get nuked by gens and killers who are very very very good but sdtill have to resort to tunneling if they are trying to win. That would ruin the time of lower rank survivors and wouldnt really fix the problem, unless the killer actually gives a damn about the emblem system.
I actually agree with you. Match length does feel like a piece of the problem honestly. If the killer doesn't kill out one survivor extremely quickly they slam gens to completion and get out super fast resulting in both sides getting little to no playtime and often just safety pipping. As for M1 Genning being boring I think its just the way DBD is currently. They should honestly consider making a second game on a new engine with some new gameplay mechanics that make playing survivor more interesting.
And you are correct of the PH cages by themselves being a bad idea because you lose pressure. Honestly it feels like the idea itself isint bad but if it were iterated in the current version of the game it would just cause problems.
Changing skill checks to be "difficult" aint really gonna work though. The debuff would have to be absurd for it to work out as survivors rarely if ever fail any skill checks to begin with. Honestly I just feel the game should start slow and slowly ramp up in pace to compensate.
OR
Maybe we will finally decide whether we want Dead by Daylights maps to Wide or High. Most High maps are more killer sided and most Wide maps are Survivor sided, where it all comes down to travel time. Most "bad killer experiences" come from the fact that say for example clown takes way to long to cross those wheat maps depraving him of pressure from the get-go. The same can be said to Deathslingers, Hags and any other killer that has to depend on some form of gimmick to get their pressure off. (Not saying Hag is bad just that she is slow when traversing the map)
I suppose that there currently is no method to distinguish strategic play and just malice filled tunneling. And no matter how many hits survivors take or how much they body block or annoy a killer if they want to tunnel someone out of existence they will do so remorselessly and that just... sucks.
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Another big problem with the tunneling issue is that if I play a weaker killer I find myself being forced to tunnel to keep the game pace in check. 4 People roaming around is just too much pressure and speedy genny repair to really be easily controllable.
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This game is just not fun to play as a killer. So frustrating. You either play someone who instantly wins a chase or you play a killer that gets genrushed in 2 seconds. Bloodlust is necessary until they start bumping m1 killer base movement speeds.
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@DoritoHead said:
I have an idea:
- Make Dying Light basekit for all killers, but the effect is decreased and the obsession receives no benefits and suffers the same penalties as the rest of the survivors. It still deactivates after the obsession dies, and obviously no tokens are gained from hooking the obsession.
- The first survivor hooked in the trial becomes the obsession
if you decrease the effect of dying light anymore than it is then it will simply have 0 impact. Which it currently already does in the format it is now.
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@Kind_Lemon said:
healing used to be faster, and that allowed for the survivors to make both the unhooked survivor and the unhooker equally appealing targets.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1744040#Comment_1744040
and wait...campers haven't just disappeared because of emblems, or have they and I've not been playing the same game y'all have been?
You dont really see campers at high levels of play. They exist in the r20's and r15's where they belong because they cant get kills anymore
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@Justalittlepeeck said:
Any solution that is just nerfing tunneling is horrible.
The best way to handle the problem is to make not tunneling not lose-lose strategy and give keeping survivors as long as possible some actual strategic meaning.
For example:
- 4 survivors alive - apply something that pressures survivors additionally/slows them/etc
- When survivor dies/dies too early - pressure becomes weaker/disappears/survivors gain buff
- Killer would have incentive to keep survivors alive as long as possible if that debuff would apply enough pressure to justify such
- Killer would finish survivors off only by the end of the game, where some kind of repair/healing speed buff wouldn't change much.
- If killer kills too fast, other survivors would gain some kind of advantage over killer to help them
But for god's sake, anything like that should be BASEKIT mechanics, not another bunch of DLC perks that will either not be used at all because people wouldn't find them appealing or they become overused so much that both sides will puke from seeing and having to use them in every game.
This. Perks must NEVER be used to fix game balance because all perks exist in a constant state of flux. Their power varies according to the current meta the type of killers available and even the good graces of the Developers themselves. Whatever change or fix is implemented it MUST become a core mechanic the same way Emblems killed Campers out of the game.