idi_007
idi_007
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/461481/no-mithers-interaction-with-onis-power
Well if it was like that, theoretically 4 people with No Mither would turn Oni into a powerless, M1 killer, outside of hooking blood orbs, which are very miniscule. He would at least need to get the 40% that he'd typically get from hitting healthy survivors if they were to remove passive blood orb generation, but also removing passive orbs makes his frequency add ons useless. In short, just keep thugging it out for the achievement. Oni is pretty rare, and if you get him with No Mither, you should just accept the fact you're likely not winning and pray for anything but Oni next match.
Bro, are you serious? Forget about Oni's power, if there were 4 No Mithers in your match it doesn't matter if you're Nurse, Oni or Trapper, killer's won! The survivors cannot go and unhook safely, chases would be considerably shorter and the only hope for survivors would be gens or stealthing. If you lose against 4 No Mithers, you seriously need some improving to do.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/461481/no-mithers-interaction-with-onis-power
Well if it was like that, theoretically 4 people with No Mither would turn Oni into a powerless, M1 killer, outside of hooking blood orbs, which are very miniscule. He would at least need to get the 40% that he'd typically get from hitting healthy survivors if they were to remove passive blood orb generation, but also removing passive orbs makes his frequency add ons useless. In short, just keep thugging it out for the achievement. Oni is pretty rare, and if you get him with No Mither, you should just accept the fact you're likely not winning and pray for anything but Oni next match.
Bro, are you serious? Forget about Oni's power, if there were 4 No Mithers in your match it doesn't matter if you're Nurse, Oni or Trapper, killer's won! The survivors cannot go and unhook safely, chases would be considerably shorter and the only hope for survivors would be gens or stealthing. If you lose against 4 No Mithers, you seriously need some improving to do.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032002#Comment_4032002
you can’t actually unless you’re from a different reality. For the record i play more killer than i do survivor. Killer is going to be even less fun now with almost zero challenge because of these new tiles. Some people like me like a challenge, it’s why i thrived on souls games and competitive fighting games. Killer has become absolutely brain dead to play. With the odd exception because certain killers have been left behind.
Killer is brain dead? Please. All a survivor needs to do is press "Space" and they're okay. Oh? The killer is going the other way around to catch u after you dropped a pallet? Guess what? There's another 2 meters away so you can just rinse and repeat. If you're a survivor main that is complaining about the pallet density update, you're less than bad, since this update makes survivors gameplay child's play. Stop complaining for the wrong reasons
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@steu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011980#Comment_4011980
There is a little symbol on the side used to create headings, not sure what it's called but it's used to indicate a new paragraph normally.
Thank you! I'll try it later
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How do you make your words get so big?
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@CloudyHope said:
The hook status needs to be hidden again in games, as tunneling has increased too much since it was added. You can't even enjoy the games anymore with the amount of tunneling there is. The games don't last long at all, and sometimes you get penalized for how quickly you die due to tunneling.
If you're not going to provide an anti-tunneling system, at least give us that, because it's no longer fun to keep playing like this.
I think that if a killer wants to tunnel, they're gonna do it regardless of that addition or not. I myself enjoy this system since there are time when the survivors are cute and I want to let all of the team escape, but at least I want to hook every survivor once and (more than I wish it happened) I accidentally killed some one bc I didn't remember how many times that survivor was hooked. I know this is specific, but I'm just giving an example.
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@Alicia_Tried6041 said:
gods please dont superbuff this annoying killer…
I think these changes are very well balanced and are survivor-friendly
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@AdamZ said:
I would love it if legion would get all of this, but didnt bhvr said to tatariu that they cant give him these buffs?
Well, that doesn't prevent me from trying, right?
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I agree 😓 But we're talking about BHVR, a company that had a perfectly balanced and interesting killer in the PTB and turned it into a killing machine worse than the Nurse 🤷
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@Clevarz said:
Dropping my support here as some of these are good ideas
Thank you! You're too kind ❤️
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@ItsDeerlord said:
Yeah, don't you dare bring anything like this to my Legion…
My first 260 hours were exclusively on Legion, I'm highly attached to them as well.
I'm not 'bringing anything' to Legion, I believe that this is a better and more thematic direction for them.So just worse than his current killer instinct?
If you want to buff this aspect just make it so it's fixed are around Legion instead of connected to his terror radius.A fair point but it's not explicitly meant to be superior to the killer instinct, it's meant to synergize with the new skill and turn Legion into more of an information-based killer. It gives the impression that the other three are watching you from the shadows, which is part of the fantasy of playing as a group of four killers.
That's completely useless, I end my Frenzy while survivor got speed boost from me anyway. That's just M1 at that point and it's way better to catch up in Frenzy and try to cancel next to them.
I'm sorry, but I'm sort of confused. You end the frenzy after hitting anyways, and this change would encourage correctly identifying when to end your Frenzy after a hit and doing it skillfully.
Wouldn't that make it a good change? It's rewarding you for doing what you already do, but doing it skillfully.Another highly popular aspect of another killer. Basically guard on every survivor, which can have only two outcomes, either it's strong and it's going to often end the game, or it can be easily avoided and it's kinda useless.
I don't think killers sharing aspects with others is a bad thing, if that's what your first point is. It provides a certain interconnectedness to the cast and it means you're working within tried-and-true design space.
I see the bot-controlled Legion members acting more like Nemesis zombies, where their main purpose is to keep the survivors moving and slow the game down. Then, when the player takes control of one, it's essentially them starting a chase where they have somewhat of an advantage.
I think it would function best as slowdown that can catch careless survivors out - but in a way that's healthier and better-telegraphed for new players. Deep Wound isn't really tutorialized: you have to go down to it to learn what it is and how to handle it. But all survivors know to avoid people running at them with knives.I'm sad you don't like the pitch much, but I hope my explanations can sell you on it a little better.
The problem isn't that your suggestion is already from another killer, but instead because that many other AI based aspects of a killer's power (Like Nemesis' zombies and Knight's guards) or switching places killer's abilities (like Victor from The Twins and the dog named Snug controlled by the The Houndmaster) are full of BUGS and GLITCHES that BHVR doesn't fix and won't do it any time soon. So, for the sake of everyone's peace of mind, please don't bring AI to Legion's power, instead, rework it to be stronger.
What I think would be a good addition to the game that includes every member of the gang is free skins from every character of the Legion (Frank and Julie + Susie and Joey) and special Moris for each member. What do you think? Also please check my posts about Legion and tell me what you think about it
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@ItsDeerlord said:
NEW STATUS EFFECT: 'I SEE YOU'
Instead of Deep Wounds, frenzied hits apply 'I See You', which reveals other survivors in a radius around the afflicted. Visual effects communicate to both survivors that, by being close to each other, they are giving The Legion information.
The afflicted survivor will not be revealed themselves. However, if an afflicted survivor's radius collides with another afflicted survivor's (like a Venn diagram), both are revealed.REASONING: Offers a status that provides fewer growing pains for new players who are already overwhelmed. In the time it takes them to learn exactly how the status works, revealing an ally is less frustrating than going down. Also, has synergy with the new secondary ability (described below).This 'Venn diagram' approach to revealing afflicted survivors encourages the Legion to spread the pressure out, even if survivors split up. Legion is famously countered by splitting, and this will still be the case, but a skilled and determined Legion will be able to overcome it and exert pressure on all four survivors regardless.
If The Legion hooks someone afflicted by I See You, the status ends prematurely and The Legion receives two tokens (this is a surprise tool that can help them later). This can only trigger once per survivor.
REASONING: This further incentivizes The Legion to evenly distribute hook states, as getting a bunch of Tokens is a huge power spike for them.
FERAL FRENZY CHANGES
First and foremost, the insta-down mechanic is removed. The thought makes me sad as well, but, I think it is made up for.
In addition to applying I See You, new skill expression is added to the ability. After landing a hit, there is a brief window of time where The Legion can hit the 'end ability' button. If done with correct timing, end the Frenzy with a smooth animation and partial refund to the cooldown, returning control to The Legion much faster than normal.
Doing so outside of this window will result in the standard, more punishing animation.
If the button isn't pressed at all after a hit, the timer is reset and the frenzy will continue as normal.
Frenzy hits are still incapable of downing survivors, of course.REASONING: Makes for proactive and skill-based gameplay. A Legion with good game sense and/or quick thinking will be able to identify the right time to end their frenzy prematurely. This gives the player more agency to leverage the frenzy hit in the chase they're currently in, or try and spread their pressure elsewhere.
Applying I See You to a survivor who is both healthy and unafflicted will grant the Legion one token.
REASONING: Encourages the Legion to slow the game down and allow survivors to reset, so they can use their cool new ability more, which is:
NEW SECONDARY ABILITY: 'THE GANG'S ALL HERE!'
Once The Legion has four tokens, they can spend all their tokens to call the other members of The Legion in for back-up. Each survivor being revealed by I See You will have one bot-controlled Legion member target them, up to a maximum of three, going furthest-to-nearest.
The effect lasts a certain amount of time. Within this timeframe, the player will see the auras of the other Legion members. By looking at them and pressing the secondary ability button, the player will switch control over to the other member (with the member they 'jumped' from becoming bot-controlled in the interim). I See You's timer will freeze during this ability, meaning it will not dissipate.The behavior of the other Legion members could be rudimentary and passive, for fairness and ease-of-programming. They are more stalking the survivors than actively chasing them - however, a survivor who foolishly gets close to them or does a gen in their face will quickly regret it.
Once the ability ends, the Legion members disappear in a plume of smoke, and the one they currently control is replaced by the one they started the match as.REASONING: My feeling is that The Legion could use a 'Showstopper' type move. A moment when everything clicks into place and your skilled play is rewarded with a huge advantage. It gives the killer some terrifying map presence, though only within specific time periods they have to work to earn.
Thus ends my humble pitch.
I think everything was going fine and well (though I would have to ask how would you address the issue of Legion being able to hit more than 5 hits consecutively since there'd be no cap to it, but it still could be fixed), until you brought up the bot-controlled Legion members... I mean... 🤦. I do a lot of posting about Legion specifically, you should check it out.
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@jiogo1 said:
Please buff the trapper, I already made a previous post asking for adjustments, and the killer is simply HORRIBLE to play, if not basement trapper.
suggestions:
Trapper Base Kit Buffs
Increased maximum number of carried traps:
From 2 to 8.
Increased number of carried traps at the start of the match:
From 2 to 5.
Reduced number of traps spawned on the map:
From 8 to 5.
Improved trap setup speed:
Reduced setup time from 2.5 seconds to 2 seconds.
Incorporated Lengthened Jaws effect into base kit:
Survivors who escape a Bear Trap on their own suffer the Deep Wound status effect.
Incorporated Wax Brick effect into base kit:
The Trapper is unaffected by his Bear Traps (he is not trapped in them).
New Addons:
New Add-ons for the Trapper
Add-on Green (Uncommon): Taut Chain
Description: A reinforced chain that increases the resistance of traps, making escape more difficult.
Effect:Increases the Escape Attempt time of Bear Traps by +10% (from 1.8 seconds to 1.98 seconds).
For each attempt a survivor makes to escape a Bear Trap, the time for subsequent Escape Attempts increases by an additional +10% (stacking additively, e.g., 1.98s to 2.178s after one attempt, 2.3958s after two, etc.).
Add-on Brown (Common): Stiff Spring
Description: A hardened spring that makes traps more difficult to disarm.
Effect:Increases the Disarm time of Bear Traps by +15% (from 3.5 seconds to 4.025 seconds).
What about basic kit Undetectable for him as well? That way he can set up without being bothered by survivors
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@UndeddJester said:
The fundamental issue of Legion is there is not really a way of making them strong against good survivors... quite often all buffing them does is make them better at stomping people who already don't play against Legion correctly... and this has always been the issue when trying to improve Legion.
The suggestion for 6m/s, with the change to reduce turn rate like Oni isn't necessarily a bad change, but it does suffer from the controller/mouse diff problem. This is also why I've never considered spin tech as valid "skillful" survivor counter play, because it's effectiveness differs massively based on whether you're against a console/PC killer (it's straight up embarrassing to get spun on PC, but par for the course on console).
So I'm less on board for this change, but not inherently against the 6.0m/s change. I'd also encourage you not to change Neversleep Pills, as even now spin techs are such a pain for console Legion (the time limit forces you to swing instead of being able to bait it out), this add-on saves so much annoyance with a fair trade off. Yes it's hard to use, but genuinely it takes Legion from being intolerable to actually being somewhat fun for a console Legion.
With that said, regarding the changes basekit, I'm on board with majority of them.
- Frank's Mixtape partially basekit is an absolute yes.
- Scratch Marks and Blood would definitely be nice.
- Blur and pitch lock aye, good changes.
- Pick up... meh not too invested either way.
Undetectable doesn't prevent Killer Instinct I am against though. The main threat of stealth killers is to make not healing a dangerous choice, as catching a survivor off guard is an instant down. The threat of being snuck up on passively slows the game by heavily encouraging survivors to heal. This value is usually traded off by slowing down the stealth killer while Undetectable (Pig/Ghost Face crouch, Myers tier 1, Chucky being 4.4) or having a lullaby/imperfect stealth (Sadako, Freddy, Myers tier 2). This is also why a lot of faster killers tend to make a lot of noise when using their power (Blight, Hillbilly, Kaneki, Wesker, Spirit, Nurse, Oni, etc). Even Dredge who is a stealth killer is just generally loud.
With this in mind, rhe main counterplay to Legion is to not heal and keep apart, and if Legion is taking stealth/oblivious perks, this makes these kinds of perks highly beneficial at removing his main counterplay, in conjunction with a killer that has pretty good map mobility. Unlike these other examples Legion only makes reasonable noise when they drop power. Given the number of perks that can easily grant stealth, stealth is not hard for a non stealth killer to acquire, that actually often better than actual stealth killers stealth. So Legion with direct Undetectable synergy would have all the benefits of stealth, with his power directly contradicting stealth usual weaknesses.
- Cooldown reduction, not sure it's needed, especially with the cooldown per hit change, but not too passionate either way.
- Reduced cooldown and fatigue per hit. This seems interesting, though would still encourage tunneling... you'd simply take the hits on your non tunnel target and then use the faster drop when you find your tunnel target. With that in mind I'm down for faster cooldown, less down for fatigue.
- Fatigue Speed and Faster vault, and vaulting perks. Given that their vault cannot injure people who try to tech him by vaulting back through them... not unreasonable. However vault and instant drop is the main dumbass ability that makes Kaneki as hated as he is... so I'd be careful here.
Those are my initial thoughts, haven't got to add-ons yet
Okay, I'm sorry I took this long to answer you, I just got a new phone and haven't been able to use it. First, I agree with you about the difficulty of making Legion good against good survivors, but I think that's okay, I don't want Legion to be powerful of any kind of good, just average, as close to Demogorgon as possible (Good chase potential and okay mobility/map pressure).
About the Never-Sleep Pills though, I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you for two reasons: 1) This add-on's usage restraints Legion's ability to only getting chained hits (since you can't use your power for mobility, catching up to a survivor or in chase at all), which is something I'm completely against. And 2) It lowers the skill ceiling of Legion even further through the so called "Brain-dead Legion" playstyle: Using Frenzy, getting chained hits, stalling the game and eventually getting a Frenzy down. That's not fun to play against and it most certainly is not rewarding to play as, so I tried to change that.
About the stealth part, I agree with you partially, but it falls back to the same category of survivors playing badly against Legion, since you can tell when Legion is coming for you to get a Feral Slash through the hud even as a solo queue player, so yeah, Undetectable Legion might be good against new, unaware survivors, but every killer is the same. Every killer can slap a Undetectable build and surprise new players, so that's not a Legion-only issue. Allowing Legion to see killer instinct while Undetectable could be troublesome if it wasn't for the fact that aware survivors know when
Legion is in Frenzy and, since the new patch, killer instinct won't even work if the survivor has the Elusive status effect, so I wouldn't say the Undetectable is something to worry about.
About the cooldown and fatigue reduction, to prevent tunneling or the same problem as Kaneki with his short fatigue and fast moving speed, I'd change this effect to only work immediately after a Feral Slash on a survivor, making these two scenarios okay for the killer and the survivor: If Legion wants to go after the recently hit survivor and make use of the reduced fatigue, they'd have to cancel Frenzy instantly after hitting the survivor, giving the chased player a speed boost and a chance to make it to safety. If Legion doesn't want to go after the recently hit survivor and just wants to break a pallet or pressure a gen, while making use of the shorter fatigue, then it'd only serve as dynamic purposes and if Legion wants to go after someone again, they need to build up consecutive hits in order to make use of the shorter fatigue/cooldown. I'll add this change to the official post, but I'm only giving you a preview. As for the vaulting and canceling strategy, it could be fixed by increasing the fatigue penalty after vaulting or reducing the fatigue speed after each vault.
Phew, I think that was it. Thanks for the attention and I hope you have a nice one ❤️
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@MKO313 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3986514#Comment_3986514
completely understandable! we all have our own opinions on buffs, etc etc, I do like what you believe legion should be changed/buffed at! alot of people like myself have similar opinions on where he should be buffed at and your no different, I tried my best to explain each one and I hope you found it helpful! I dont think your opinion was selfish in any way, opinions will always be someone's thoughts on things no matter how someone will look at it, thanks for the response and I hope you have a good day!
It definitely was a nice comment and a sight for sore eyes, since I'm used to seeing rage against any Legion change at all, so thank you!
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@MKO313 said:
I do like these changes but there is a few things I personally myself would change!
fatigue speed and duration
overcomplicating it could cause it to be a big decrease to the skill floor due to it each time being eaiser to hit the next survivor, it should more or less be about sealing the deal and the fatigue speed I do believe should be updated, however the duration is fine concurrently, 2.5 is the same as other killer's fatigue however his speed or curve is what I recommend should be changed, imo tatariu did it best (0.5 going deaccelerating from feral frenzy speed) this in turns passively buffs mural sketch (1.5 seconds staying at 2.3-2.7 fatigue speed) this is dependent but I do believe going past 2.8 m/s might be too much… (0.5 going to base 4.6) this is currently in the game already.
feral frenzy cooldown
this is where I do believe you are mainly correct, but I do think it should be more or less at 12 seconds, 10 seconds at base seems nice for mobility but again, we want him to still have the need to wait, but the cooldown having less time per hit is something I do enjoy in your changes, it makes him slightly more dynamic
feral frenzy speed and blood pools/scratch marks
6 m/s is absolutely good for legion, I dont see why they haven't done this yet, but the blood pools/scratch marks should still be allowed to see before a hit, however after a feral slash you should be able to get away without it due to killer instinct, this is an idea, and I understand what your getting at, but it gives him something he does have in his kit (which is tracking) after hitting a survivor, but in fairness, he should see these before a feral slash
vaulting perks synergy
I may have to disagree with this, I do understand why they removed unbound from working, and fire up, etc etc, I hate it yes but remember wesker and kenaki who are absolutely better than legion gets better value out of this then he does.
my opinion
well I dont think many of your changes are bad at all, I do think they are pretty good and may make him better than oppressive, but the main reason he was heavily nerfed is because of his oppressiveness, these changes are slightly over extending on that, I didn't talk about add ons because I would rather have basekit changes than add ons, again you did good on this but I feel like these may make him feel overly oppressive, I firmly believe legion should receive more buffs basekit, but we also want to make him feel more dynamic and increase his skill ceiling to use more of his abilites, but also allow more new players to have an eaiser time to pick up and play! thats about it, and I hope you have a fantastic day.
Wow, I don't even know where to begin! Thank you for the time and care for this analysis, I really do appreciate ♥️😘. About the fatigue speed and duration, as I said in the previous comment, I'm no expert of what it's op, balanced, bad, toxic or good for the game (Hell, I'm a newbie with only 1000 hours and an obsession with Legion, it's not like I'm smart enough to play some killer like Billy or Blight), so the numbers are just what I imagined would be okay, in my head makes sense, you know? But these numbers can absolutely change and, about some of the specific patches that were made in order to make the game healthier (like the vaulting speed one), I only was being showing my selfish opinion, lots of people don't agree with me and that's okay. Overall, the only changes I think >SHOULD< be added to Legion are the Fundamental and the Intermediate ones, the last one is just creative ideas I had 😅. Thank you so much for your time and I hope you have a nice day!! Please make sure to check out my other posts about Legion if you're interested.
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These Extensive changes are just cool ideas I had and hence are in the "Extensive" category. None of them are either essential or deepens the way to play as or against Legion, they're just nice things to have (I mean, I agree with you about the vaulting thing, but as a Legion main, I'd love to do some crazy vault speed builds, which is fun and not toxic) . I agree with you that Legion should be reworked, but I don't think it should be something that rewrites their play style(like Clown's yellow bottles), just a tweak in the numbers, that's all, and all of my suggestions are just imaginative, like the fatigue speed one (it doesn't need to be 3 m/s, it could be less, that's what I'm saying). Lastly, I think Clown's yellow bottles are WAY more complicated to code into the game then some fatigue counter. BHVR already has Springtrap's movement speed coding, so, in my opinion as a laymen, increasing or decreasing the duration of Legion's power would be piece of cake for the developers. Anyways, thank you for comment ♥️
@BattleCast said:
inb4 someone says Legion is fine in their current state.But seriously, I think some of these changes are too far. Almost everything basekit you marked in the extensive category is either too strong or unnecessary.
* Decrease Legion's cooldown from 15 to 10 seconds.
This is reasonable. Shorter Feral Frenzy cd would be good but it wouldn't really fix any of their major problems.
* Every time Legion hits a survivor during Feral frenzy, their cooldown and fatigue duration after canceling their power decreases by 1 and 0.1 seconds, respectively.
Unnecessary complication I'm afraid. I really don't think shorter fatigue is the route BHVR should take to help Legion.
* Increase Legion's fatigue speed from 2.3 m/s to 3 m/s.
The reason Kaneki is faster during his cooldown is because Kaneki doesn't always get to choose where he endures that cooldown whereas Legion can always choose to be right behind a survivor. 3m/s fatigue would basically mean survivors gain virtually no distance against Legion while hes fatigued and would make him just an even more brain dead version of Kaneki even if you make him 4.4 outside of Feral Frenzy for a few seconds.
"* Feral vaults counts as normal killer vaults and, hence, get influenced by vaulting perks."
I like to imagine this was a change made for the sake of consistency and future-proofing vault perks so that any future killer that has enhanced vaults as part of their power isn't made broken by perks like Unbound.
Honestly I think Legion just needs a rework on the same scale as Clown receiving the yellow bottles. Buff Feral Frenzy by making them 6.0m/s to start off with an 8-9s duration. Let them see scratch marks and blood pools in Feral Frenzy and give them something else in addition to Feral Frenzy. Could be map mobility or chase lethality (just please don't make it 3 ai Legion members or a survivor disguise that would be so lame). -
@Ohyakno said:
I remember this post from last time. They're all really smart, good changes except trying to make feral slashes into Oni lunges. Oni's lunge is the way it is because it is a one shot down. Even with these changes making legion's lunge similar doesn't track because it merely injures.
There's some other minor nitpicks(I quite like the broken addon) but otherwise excellent writeup.
Thank you for your kind words! I agree with what you're saying about the Oni's Demon Dash lunge, but I thought I should shut up the haters completely with that change, since no one would be able to say that Legion is no skill. Anyways, thank you ♥️
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974189#Comment_3974189
I think the first part of the mori should change. Maybe the stab could be more spectacular, but I also wouldn't want the mori to last longer because I do love lategame builds
That's true, I agree. Maybe she could tag the survivor in the ground and >then< impale the survivor, maybe from the gut to the throat, you know? Upwards
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@Hanuka5 said:
"can we nerf the ghoul already"
Do you have anything pacticular in mind? did you ever play the Ghoul and said "this is too strong" or "this is too weak"?
Ghoul is more or less like legion, very strong in injuring the survivor but not good in finishing. Hes basicly a m1 killer at that point who closes gaps with jumping instead of running fast (like legion).
He's basically a better Legion, with some antiloop, but generally braindead play style and double the movement speed, both during power and during fatigue. I'd love to see the skill ceiling of both Kaneki and Legion be higher, for instance: Ghoul's hit boxes being smaller, requiring an accurate tackle to count as a hit (and not working in multiple floors, which is bullshit to go against) and similarly with Legion, but the hit box would get smaller as more hits they land. It'd also be nice if there was a brown addon for both that show the hitbox of the survivor in order to help new players get better with them. What do you guys think? If you have more interest in some changes (about Legion mostly, but also Kaneki), check the posts in my profile
@Astel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982046#Comment_3982046
Ghoul and Legion are not comparable imo. Ghoul has stronger map mobility and power to down survivor than Legion.
@Hanuka5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982053#Comment_3982053
Ghoul and Legion are not comparable
You cannot compare killers in DBD? Are you sure you are in the right forum? I mean honestly if you cannot compare killers than i dont see a reason to nerf ghoul. But in my opinion you can compare him very good with Legion or Mastermind.
Ghoul has stronger map mobility and power to down survivor than Legion.
And now you are comparing Ghoul and Legion? Im really confused. Yes Ghoul has stronger map mobility, his power to down survivor is slightly stronger because i think the cd when he drops out of his ability is a bit shorter. I agree that Ghoul is stronger as legion but does that mean that ghoul needs to be nerfed?
He has the same disadvantage that he cannot kill with his power.
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@DarkStrife said:
Maybe at a 10% chance for every jumpscare there could be the original Springtrap scream from fnaf 3? Would be a nice little easter egg and feature.
100% approved
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@Langweilig said:
Ghoul is my only real main at the moment, but I play a few others as well.
@GeneralV said:
I main Skull Merchant!
She is really unique when compared to the others and I love everything about her.
Based, I love her.
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But think of the possibilities!! It'd be awesome if it were just a bit different
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
As we all know, Skull merchant is in the reworks: the killer with a niche community, lovers of "lasertagging" and a killer that had to be nerfed to the ground, not because she was strong, but because she was easy.
That is why I wanted to help give ideas on how we can turn her into an amazing killer. But first, let's take a close look at what she's about, before we can turn her into an amazing killer, and bring her fantasy to life:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n5CPmseFfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFsz5JUdfeE
When looking at her trailers and cutscenes, we find a killer stabbing people in the back, and sending terrifying drones at them, that stalk them, track them, and perhaps even kill them. This is the fantasy that I wanna bring to life with this rework!
The goal is to make her skill-based, fun to play against, viable, and keep some love for the original "laser tagging" merchant players!
Let's get into it!
HER MAIN ABILITY:
Bouncing Drone:
- She shoots forward a hovering drone that moves in a straight line
- It can fly over pallets and windows
- It can bounce off walls a total of 2 times similar to trickster's knives
- Deploying this drone doesn't slow her down
- It has 2 modes. Stalking mode & Scan mode. By default it flies in stalking mode and by pressing the ability button again it enters Scan mode
Stalking Mode:
- The drone simply flies in a straight trajectory, being able to bounce until it breaks on a 3rd bounce off of an object, or after 8 seconds disables
- If a drone hits a survivor in stalking mode, the drone will attach itself to the survivor "lazily following" that survivor in an small ring around them. If for example, the survivor moves north, the drone will be south, but if the survivor starts to move west after moving north, the drone will slowly move from south to east of the survivor
- A stalking drone attached to the survivor hides the killer's red stain and applies the LAZER effect whenever the survivor looks into the direction of the drone
- Hitting a survivor with multiple Stalker drones will cause the drones to fuse and applies 1 stack for SWARMhttps://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HPT4O0DI8MWX/dbd-skullmerchant.png
The LAZER effect will blind the survivor in the direction of the drone (which is around 160 degrees of their FOV), where the exact spot of the drone shows this flickering white star, while a dotted pattern of red dots keeps moving in different directions at different intervals. Skull Merchants Red eye will also show as a bigger red dot whenever she is looking at the survivor in line of sight (see subtle red dot right side of the star)
- The survivor can easily remove this drone by passing a somewhat quick skill-check which grabs the drone out of the air (Which is somewhat difficult mid chase, as it renders them immobile) They can also cancel the skill-check/fail it by just starting to run again
- If you're shooting a new bouncing drone, other Stalker's drones lazer will disable for the duration that new stalker drone didn't hit anybody or entered Scan mode
- The skull merchant can "Lock" the stalker drone by "Upgrading it"
Upgrading stalker drone:
- Press the second ability button + hold mouse button to upgrade the Stalker drone attached to any survivors
- Upgrading the drone significantly slows down Skull Merchant, and lasts longer than it takes for a survivor to remove it with the skill check
- If successfully upgraded, the survivor can no longer use a quick skill check to remove the stalker drone. It will be attached to them until they are downed, or if they hide in a locker for 30 seconds (uncommon)
- If a survivor has an upgraded stalker bot attached to them, they can also no longer hear the killer's terror radius
SWARM:
- If a survivor holds the active ability button instead of pressing it, she releases a Swarm bot for every survivor that has a stalker bot on them. The swarm drone will move to the current location that particular survivor was at at the time of activating it
- The swarm drone moves slower than a survivor's speed
- The swarm drone will burst shoot 3 bullets at a survivor if it's in line of sight at around 8 meters from the survivor, injuring them or downing them
- For every stack of SWARM on a survivor, their swarm bot will move to their new current location again after reaching their previous location
- After it has used all stacks, the swarm bot and the stalker bot on that survivor will disable
- Swarm drone can't shoot when within 16 meters of the killer
- While swarm is active, the killer can see the locations of all survivors with a stalker bot on her tablet.
- You cannot use swarm again if another swarm is already active or there are no survivors with upgraded stalker drones
Now you understand the Bouncing drone's default mode stalking, let's explain Scan mode!
- If after pressing the ability button to shoot a bouncing drone in stalking mode, you press the ability button again, it stops its trajectory and enters Scanning mode.
- Locked in position, the drone starts scanning clockwise, injuring/downing any survivor it hits
- The scan scans only in 1 direction, and starts in the direction the killer is looking at at the time of activating Scan mode
- Activating scan mode slows the Skull Merchant down, to give survivors predicting the scan time to crouch, which dodges the scan
- The scan moves for the duration of 2 full rotations before disappearing. The bot then disappears
- Pressing the ability while the scan is up changes its direction, with a minimal direction change cooldown of around 0.8 seconds, unless at the start, where double clicking the ability button will cause the rotation to start counter clockwise
- If a survivor gets hit, the scan disables and the survivor's aura is revealed for 5 seconds
AMBUSH
- Press the secondary ability button + the ability button to activate AMBUSH
- Ambush is Skull Merchants mobility, that allows drones to lift her up and quickly moves her over a pre-planned path
- When she activates ambush, you enter a mode where you can quickly create a path, similar to knight, while unable to see any survivors while creating that path
- The speed at which you create this path is rather quick
- After releasing, Skull merchant gets picked up by drones to follow quickly fly over that full path (which can go over pallets and windows). She cannot cancel this path and will be dropped off at the end
- If any survivor bumps into her while she flies over this path, she "Crashes", breaking her out of her path and "Fatiguing" her for an extended duration compared to the nurse, giving survivors ample time to reach a pallet. During this fatigue she cannot hit survivors and moves at around 10-20% of her normal movement speed
- If she reaches the end of her ambush, she can't instantly attack, and will be slowed down, giving survivors some time to get distance, even if she guesses her end location rather well without bumping into a survivor
NOW YOU UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE KILLER, let's talk about WHY! ❤️
With this setup, she has the ability to injure in chase, with Bouncing drone + Scan Activation, which has counter play as survivors can crouch + her slowing down to compensate, and keeps the "Lasertag" love and skillsets of old school Skull Merchants relevant, as they deserve!
She will be able to apply group pressure and abandon chase using Stalker mode, being able to leave survivors who weren't able to predict her leaving them and didn't manage to get the stalker drone off before she managed to upgrade it, as well as apply slowdown with SWARM, fitting perfectly into her theme and cutscenes!
She will be able to mindgame using the Stalker drone's blinding effect from 1 direction, to suddenly come from the other, to fit in perfectly with her theme of stabbing people from unexpected locations, like in the Cutscenes!
She will have mobility to keep her from falling behind in bigger maps and can so called "dash out" of the Stalker's drone blind spot to ambush survivors from the front, to create an intense experience while not being too oppressive due to her not being able to attack straight out of it, as well as it offering super satisfying moments for survivors who predicted her path and managed to crash her out of it.
And overall we'd have a brand new killer with super unique features, some of which may only truly befit her lore and theme! If we could make it happen 💖
Let me know what you think!Honestly, the only rework I wanted from Skull Merchant would be a Mori rework. Idc that she's bad, but that Mori is awful 😭😭😭😭😭
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@juanmf said:
Sorry guys, but I completely disagree. You take into account that survivors are always on call or playing together, when most of the time they are solo and depend on such strong teamwork, it makes the entire match against Legion boring and dull, especially on small maps. I agree with the buffs if the game had a communication system, but how that would completely break the immersion... I not only vote for no buff, but I vote for reworking his abilities, to make him less present in almost the entire map.
I support your right to have an opinion about something that I don't agree with and I understand your frustrations (believe me, nothing pisses me off harder than going against a Legion and seeing my whole team crumble because they are bad players and don't know how to counter them) but what are your arguments? I presented facts that support my point of view in order to convince the devs of why Legion deserves a buff, but in all of the comments I got from my previous posts, not a single person gave me undeniable proof that Legion shouldn't be changed. Yes, Legion benefits from survivors making mistakes, but which killer doesn't? What I'm considering is the usage of their power, Feral Frenzy, and it's ability to change the course of the game. If you take FF out of the equation, Legion's lethality is just like any other killer, so that argument isn't valid because it applies to every caracther in the game. In fact, Legion's power needs the screw up of the entire team >consecutively<, while many other killers (even Trapper) need only one mistake and the game is over. If you do not wish to provide any counterarguments, that's completely okay, but my opinion is backed up by evidence and numbers, so the developers should take it into consideration. Thank u <3
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Thank you
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Bro is complaining about No Mither 😂
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@coldflame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954212#Comment_3954212
oh yeah slug 3 people in 20 seconds why didnt i think of that
Skill issue
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@coldflame said:
there's legit 0 counterplay here
Skill issue
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@MadMan56 said:
Please bring back map offerings! I am tired of playing on Haddonfield with 5 pallets. i used to bring different map offerings to make the game more varied and dont go to killer sided map alll the time. If someone doesnt want to go to a specific map you can always bring sacrificial ward ! Now map offerings are useless but we all have spent millions bp on it.
Moreover if the killer decided to bring a map offering it makes the game funnier and more interesting. When mirror myers shows up on midwitch- the game REALLY becomes scary and i love it. Its a challenge for everyone. If you made it- you become more experienced gamer. I play with giving up scratched mirror myers on ormond and autohaven all the time these days.
The same with hag who uses bodyblocking addons on indoor maps. As a survivor main i understand it and accept this challlenge. People want to have fun.
The pig bringing gideon is lore accurate and it immerses us in the atmosphere of the game.
the other reason to bring map offerings is to explore map, remember spawn, main. when i started playing dbd i used to do it and it gave so much experience.
Now i dont feel like we have an opportunity to influence the game, to be closer with it. Now i dont experience the "who's map is gonna win" if there are many map offerings. Or "is it a stealth man?" when i see killer brought an offering. it's boring and random.
No 😂😂😂
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I really like your suggestions, just change the numbers and it'd be really good to be in the game
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@Elan said:
I agree, Legion needs buffs because current Legions running iri buttons, bamboozle, cancelling powers 24/7 are not very fun to verse. Sadly base Legion is still pretty meh.
It's the first ever positive comment I received on this post 🥺 Thank you
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I get where you're coming from
@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952508#Comment_3952508
It doesn't always happen even with good SWF. Especially when survivor is in second stage and get locked in animation. You can also break LoS quite often. That's something you can play around, not really when everyone can directly see your aura.
Also SWF are not majority of playerbase, yet alone SWF who actually make callouts.
I definetly face this in few games, but that's very far from this happening every time I hook a survivor.
Every game I play as soloQ/duo I play with Kindred, so I am fully aware how strong killer aura reading is and it would be absolutely broken basekit.I get where you're coming from, so I think the killer's aura part should be exclusively to the Kindred perk. But I do think that it >could< be buffed to 20 meters of aura reading, since part of its effect would be already basekit
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Didn't even read the post, but I'm all for it
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950684#Comment_3950684
Blight and Vigo are two different characters, but are tied really closely to one another.
Blight and Vigo do share similarities because Blight was following in Vigo's footsteps to try and escape the Entity's realm (referenced in the "Vigo's Journal" add-on). In fact, many characters have followed within Vigo's footsteps, it's why we (formerly) had the Observer. But at the same time, the game goes to great lengths to make it known that these characters, while similar, exist as different beings; which was a response to players originally getting confused and thinking that the characters are the same.
Also, Vigo survived the deepest levels of the Void. But it is never stated that Blight was put in the Void by the Entity itself, so it is possible that they only ventured there intentionally to get chemicals from things within the Void (since Blight is an alchemist). My theory is that Blight went into the Void because Vigo's Journal outlines it.
Eventually, Blight's Serums work against them and they eventually become a Killer. Blight is disrespected and mocked by the Entity (referenced in Iridescent Blight Tag), burning Vigo's Journal as an add-on (since add-ons and offerings are thrown into the campfire canonically) is like throwing away the key when locking someone in a cage, it makes sure that Blight can never escape since Blight NEEDED Vigo to escape.
Wow, that's so cool! Thanks for the answers
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@MKO313 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3943081#Comment_3943081
nice! here are some changes I would do to it… (with my current opinion)
speed reduced to 6.3m/s (was 7m/s)
reverted the change of 2.7 FF cooldown speed back to 2.3 to compensate for 1.9 fatigue time (or make his fatigue 2.1-2.3)
thats kinda the only issues I see with it, so yeah I kinda like it, maybe slightly overtuned but not very harsh.
I think >these< changes were a bit overboard. Especially the iri button base kit, but several others. With these, Legion would just turn into a closer version to Kaneki, don't you think?
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@MKO313 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3942538#Comment_3942538
I did! however I do think you went a little overboard imo, but I do like what you were trying to do with it, maybe a few tweaks and it would be pretty good!
I know that those are a lot of changes, but, if you put them all together, Legion would still be a B tier killer at best, no way close to the stronger killers, so I really think the changes I proposed would be good for the game. Lots of people were trash talking me in the comments, but I explained to them why my changes wouldn't be op, check it out as well if you haven't already seen it 🥰💖
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@brunohvs said:
Well, the legion is a killer that is kinda strong against beginners, but quickly falls against more experienced players, this rework tries to fit them better to a more competitive standard and also tries to bring them closer to their concept of some killer that runs after your stabbing non stop, increasingly injuring you. I also tried to take off his weakness to “just dont healing” against him. So i tried to make him multiple hitting the same survivor before going for the next one, this would prove being very time consuming for the legion, that's why i made them gain a lot of power upon doing so.
-Feral frenzy makes the legion faster and has a duration of 10 seconds that restarts whenever you hit a non deep wounded survivor and pauses for 1,5 seconds whenever you add feral cut stacks to a survivor, the frenzy injures and applies deep wound on hit on the first time hitting a survivor on the cast, then it gives killer instinct on all non deep wounded survivors on the legion killer radius.
-While frenzied the legion can attack repeatedly the same survivor, giving then a speed boost and a stack of feral cutts(max 5) these vanishes upon being put into dying state or healing the deep cut
-Whenever legion hits a survivor with feral frenzy, they gain a frenzy token that vanishes upon ending the feral frenzy.
-For each frenzied stack the legion becomes 0,1 m/s faster
-For each feral cut stack the survivor receives 1% hindered. When these stacks are removed, the following conditions are applied based on how many were removed: 1 stack(the survivor gets hemorrhage for 40 seconds), 2 stacks(the survivor gets hemorrhage for 40 seconds and mangled for 20 seconds), 3 stacks(the survivor gets hemorrhage for 40 seconds, mangled for 30 seconds and broken for 15 seconds), 4 stacks(the survivor gets hemorrhage for 40 seconds, mangled for 40 seconds, broken for 15 seconds and incapacitated for 10 seconds), 5 stacks(all the same conditions, but whenever you apply the fifth feral cut stack on a survivor, any other survivor who received 5 feral cut stacks in this use of feral frenzy, will scream and receive deep wound if it already don't have it, and receive all 5 stacks of feral cut again. If all survivors on the trial have 5 stacks of feral cut at the same time, the legion enters on party time.
-While at party time, the feral frenzy timer is paused and deep wound timers don't stop progressing while running. Feral frenzy hits during party time make all survivors scream and reduces the hit survivor deep wound timer by 25%. If any survivor gets rid of the feral cut stacks during party time, it ends and the legion becomes fatigued.
-After being freed from all feral cut stacks, the survivors receive an additional 3% reduced repair speed for each cut stack they lost, that remains on then until being healed
I like your creativity, very good changes. If you will, I also uploaded a post of changes to the Legion that I think should be implemented, please, check it out.
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@Elan said:
- Make Feral Frenzy last 20s
- Give FF speed bonus of 0,4m/s
- FF is increased by 5s whenever you get a FF hit
- 4th hit will instadown
- Vaulting over pallet breaks it basekit
- Vaulting over window blocks it basekit
- Self mended survivor suffer from broken for 20s basekit
- Deep wound will automatically go down outside of killer terror radius, forcing you to mend within 15s
- The feral cut will happen autamitically with aim assist once you are close enough to survivor
- Being stunned by a pallet doesnt end FF
Bro, don't you think this is overboard?
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@MKO313 said:
hello, I am new here but I also have been playing dead by daylight for quite a bit, one of the killers I like to play as is legion, and I understand that they have recently buffed him, which is a start for him, but it has been said recently that unbound (if I'm correct atleast) was NOT meant to work for legion's vault or any killer power vault, I understand this. However legion benefits this perk ALOT compared to any other power vault killer due to the 10% compared to its original 5%, and if it ever gets reverted where it wouldn't work for power vaults I feel like it would shadow Nerf legion in a way, because using unbound grants legion better speed in fatigue and in chase.
That's is what I'm getting at, legion in a 1v1 scenario lacks any resource outside of power canceling, which would take longer than an M1 chase if you can't zone them properly or don't have ire button, I understand legion was meant as 1v4 type of killer, allowing for quick injures and pressuring the team quickly, the issue with that is to utilize this he would need to down, which he can't often because more likely than not as legion, using your power in chase (unless you have certain add ons or perks for example) is more risky and can only get you so far.
He is very weak in chase and while the buffs are a start, they aren't going to be enough, the buffs I want will maybe allow less of a "mending simulator" and allow legion to chase sed survivor instead of a faster hit and run strategy.
increase legion's speed in fatigue
legion's current speed is a x0.5 of his base movement speed, while yes this makes sense, you can't enter fatigue while in base speed WITHOUT an add on, so let's increase his speed in fatigue, I do not want his fatigue duration to be lowered because if that was done, even by -0.3, it could cause him to be oppressive overall, and I like 2.5 because it gives enough time for survivors to react while also making sure they act fast against him, if not they will be punished, a speed increase of 2.6 while in fatigue seems to be a good spot, the maximum it could be increased would be 2.7, otherwise it would be just a power canceling game, which isn't fun for both parties.
The reason I want his speed increased is too allow him to have some anti-loop on longer tiles but for shorter ones to be out of reach, this forces survivors to chain tiles but isn't a guarantee down or injure, yes I do like the current fatigue speed compared to originally, but it still needs a buff to be viable without perks like unbound.
increase feral frenzy's duration
this is something that was also done, and if you couldn't tell, what they did was a good start, but his kit still needs buffs.
The duration should be increased to another second, 12 seconds of feral frenzy allows him to be able to chain hit easier, which is what he was meant for, and also allows more mobility, allowing him to quickly find a survivor, this essentially makes mischief list basekit, I don't think it needs to be nerfed or adjusted to compensate with these buffs because I think 1 second add on for duration seems fine.
Due to the larger maps and also maps with two floors, this buff helps legion get across maps and he wouldn't be as map dependent on smaller ones compared to before.
allow legion to see pools of blood during frenzy
this is a small buff, but it was one that got removed forever long ago, which considering the current perks, should be brought back, I do not believe whatsoever he should see scratch marks at all (if you already see a survivor, scratch marks aren't as helpful in frenzy anyway).
This should be brought back mainly because it never was an issue with legion, and it could technically help in certain scenarios but is otherwise something that got removed for no reason.
allow his power gauge to be paused while performing a break action (generators and breakable walls)
Alot of people have said it, and I'll said it aswell, make frank's mixtape basekit, (well atleast the power gauge pause).
this gives legion some noticeable utility, and also can consistently be performed, if you're breaking a generator or wall while in power without frank's mixtape, even if sed survivor is quite close to you, the amount of power you would lose would make it an unviable option then just running frank's mixtape.
Thanks for listening to my rant for the buffs I think legion should get, I do think what they did for 8.6.0 was a great start for legion, but it still needs more tuning before making him a more viable killer, and these buffs could also potentially make people who play him to chase down the survivor instead of running away, if you disagree with me or have different types of buffs please let me know, I do like hearing other people's thoughts on this, and again, thank you for listening in!
I really like these ideas, I totally agree with you. I posted some suggestions for changes to Legion in my account, you should definitely check it out.
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@Lexilogo said:
Legion could definitely use buffs but I think this is really overboard.
Increasing Legion's Feral Frenzy speed is something I don't see the need for, to my understanding good Legions can already do a lot off a single Feral Frenzy, and increasing speed further makes things less interactive for the other side because FF becomes even more of a free hit than it already is. Same goes for increasing the vaulting speed, Legion is already better at vaulting than Chucky/Wesker/Ghoul because FF allows for more freedom of movement than their powers.
Seeing scratch marks/blood during FF is unnecessary. Vecna doesn't have the same disadvantage because Fly is purely for repositioning, and Spirit with ring gets to move faster because she can't see the Survivors during her power either and can't chain hits. This change also doesn't really serve to make Legion better as much as it serves to lower the skillfloor, which isn't really needed on such a popular Killer.
Removing most downsides of fatigue is a similar way. It doesn't really let good Legions unleash their potential so much as it lets bad Legions get away with sloppy play, mistakes, and bad gamesense.
IMO if these changes were implemented, Legion would be stronger, but also a much shallower character. It does do a good job demonstrating why Legion is so hard conceptually to buff, though.
Finally, this isn't important to the rest of your post, but "meta" never stood for "most effective tactic available". It comes from "meta" in other parts of language (eg. "metaphysics") to refer to mean something of a higher kind, so "metagame" means "game of the game", eg. what choices people are making in perks. People started using "the meta" as shorthand for whatever was most popular in the metagame, and someone made up the "Most Effective Tactic Available" acronym afterwards as a retroactive explanation for what "meta" means. It has absolutely no validity in the etymology of "meta", which dates back to ancient Greek. I will die on this molehill
The post is getting cold with comments, so I'll explain with more details my counterarguments. Not seeing scratch marks and pools of blood while using their power only happens with Legion and with Spirit, but only if she's using her Iridescent addon. Every other killer in the game doesn't have that disability: Blight can get on top of a survivor with a speed higher than Legion's and still see scratch marks, same with Wraith, Wesker, Kaneki, Chucky, Nurse, Oni, Billy... All of which have a better power and better mobility than Legion's. Instead of trying to explain why this killer should be able to see scratch marks, try to explain why they shouldn't. There's no argument. Legion moves fast? Other characters move faster. This killer can vault windows and pallets? Other killers can do that as well. They already have detection with their power? So you're telling me that Legion can't detect survivor's marks just so that the killer can get another type of detection? Doesn't make sense. By the way, other killers have detection with the killer instinct and can still see scratch marks (Example: Wesker). Next, the fatigue's downside shouldn't be like that, it's bugged. So, leaving at that would be neglecting the game. Furthermore, it doesn't makes sense that Legion should have that downside, since their mobility, isn't as strong as the other killers (for instance, Chucky has no visual drawback from using his power and he's still a 3rd person killer. Good morning.
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I just added videos to explain how you can counter Legion, if you aren't convinced only because of my arguments, please watch these videos
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935427#Comment_3935427
Those changes removes survs counterplay.
Legion have fast speed, which is countered if survs spreads and move. Increase this speed removes that counterplay, and makes down with chain hits almost guarantee.
Legions power gauge is one of limiting factor of his power, survs using pallets and windows to slow them down is a counterplay in case of depleting the gauge.
Legion rely on killer instinct that already counter lockers in case of searching for survs, and his power is designed to chain hit. Allowing them to see also scratch marks and pools of blood, means they can track, with high speed, most vulnerable survs (the ones that was just hit) and ignore healthy for chain hits.
All those changes removes surv counterplay, and makes almost guaranee down with each power use.
Okay, let's divide it bit by bit. These changes don't remove >all< survivors counterplays, just weakens one and removes another. The one that is weakened is the distance, but it's not entirely removed. For instance, Legion's ability to pressure multiple survivors still relies on their mistake, either by grouping up, mending within their range, or giving the killer free hits. But they still can pre-run to avoid getting chained hit. The one that is removed is the ability to bodyblock, which is mainly used by good survivors to prevent the Legion getting a down, which, in most cases, isn't game changing, since, in avarage, you only get one Frenzy down per game (with the new buff, since this statistic is lower right now). Even with these counters being changed, there are still a lot more, just like I said in the post (I'll explain them again: Baiting the killer to miss their attack (by going into a locker, running into them to mess with their POV, vaulting after they just vaulted a window or a pallet, aka, window tech or using exhaustion perks); Pre-running to prevent being inside Legion's reach; Stunning the killer out of their ability (whether it's by a pallet stun, Head-On or blinding the killer); Using any exhaustion perk to gain distance from the them; Preventing the vault by vaulting back and forth the survivors themselves (This prevents, for instance, the usage of the addon Iridescent Button for breaking pallets).
Next, the locker tech isn't something that needs to be used to hide from Legion, but instead to prevent them from getting the hit, since non aware killers will swing as they see a surv enter a locker, missing the hit and entering fatigue.
Also, if the problem is Legion's ability to quickly hit a survivor and track them down instantly through scratch marks and pools of blood, my solution is to make it that pools of blood aren't visible during Feral frenzy, only scratch marks. That way, Legion won't know which path leads to the survivor just hit and which leads to a healthy survivor. What do you think?
Finally, as I said, getting a down with their power isn't something as reliable as you might think, several conditions must be required for that to happen (I listed them previously and I'll explain it again: Legion's movement speed is 5.2m/s, whereas the survivor's is 4.0m/s; the killer's duration is 11 seconds, meaning that they can cover 57.2 meters, but the player can cover 44 meters in that time, meaning that the both need to be within 13.2 meters apart from each other for a hit to be possible. This is not much, considering that RNG is very determinating on that aspect (The survivors can start running before Legion can even get a line of sight and it's very dependable of good maps, since there are maps that are so huge that it isn't possible for Legion to get from point A to B quickly, for example, Mother's Dwelling map with 200 squared meters) and it needs to happen 5 consecutive times. On top of that, new killers can easily miss the attack, not path efficiently aaand get bodyblocked, meaning that the 5th hit is almost a urban legend among high and low skill players.) To sum up, Legion might be easy to play as, but it's also really easy to counter, so balancing that is something that I wanted to do by suggesting these changes. I hope you have a good day
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935431#Comment_3935431
my argument about not buffing them is that they are a killer with too low skill floor and nonexistent skill ceiling to be worth of a buff
I'm just gonna answer so that there's more repercussion on this post, but you don't even deserve to be taken seriously.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
Legion is one of the most popular killers because they have the lowest skill floor and nonexistent skill ceiling, meaning even baby can play them + even though they are one of the worst killers in the game, they seem very oppressive thanks to bad players.
Honestly, please no to any buffs
So your argument as to why Legion shouldn't be buffed is because people play badly. Okay 👍🆗. I mean, solid argument.
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@Archael said:
I haven't read all buffs proposed in op, but those I read are too much on their own... Every single one of them is too much on its own.
I don't think Legion needs any buffs. They are quite good, and not every killer need to be S or A tier
Please tell me why and how any of these buffs is gonna make Legion A or even S tier
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@idi_007 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935283#Comment_3935283
See? Childish hate. Cry me a river that there's a killer who can put you in the mend state and moves at 5.2 m/s.
At least your comment can serve as a highlighter that BHVR should check this post. For that, I thank you
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@RJoyYourJoy19 said:
Brilliant changes. After these are implemented the next change should be that all 4 survivors start the match on hook against Legion and they only get to try to kobe if they brought a luck offering or Slippery Meat.
See? Childish hate. Cry me a river that there's a killer who can put you in the mend state and moves at 5.2 m/s.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926696#Comment_3926696
Undone works on them at least, which is nice combo'd with bamboozle. I can't recall who mentioned it today but it was a good idea
Undone does indeed work on Legion, but only if they vault a window, whereas Wesker can activate it through vaulting a pallet. This should work on both Legion and Wesker.