idi_007
idi_007
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@Lexilogo said:
Legion could definitely use buffs but I think this is really overboard.
Increasing Legion's Feral Frenzy speed is something I don't see the need for, to my understanding good Legions can already do a lot off a single Feral Frenzy, and increasing speed further makes things less interactive for the other side because FF becomes even more of a free hit than it already is. Same goes for increasing the vaulting speed, Legion is already better at vaulting than Chucky/Wesker/Ghoul because FF allows for more freedom of movement than their powers.
Seeing scratch marks/blood during FF is unnecessary. Vecna doesn't have the same disadvantage because Fly is purely for repositioning, and Spirit with ring gets to move faster because she can't see the Survivors during her power either and can't chain hits. This change also doesn't really serve to make Legion better as much as it serves to lower the skillfloor, which isn't really needed on such a popular Killer.
Removing most downsides of fatigue is a similar way. It doesn't really let good Legions unleash their potential so much as it lets bad Legions get away with sloppy play, mistakes, and bad gamesense.
IMO if these changes were implemented, Legion would be stronger, but also a much shallower character. It does do a good job demonstrating why Legion is so hard conceptually to buff, though.
Finally, this isn't important to the rest of your post, but "meta" never stood for "most effective tactic available". It comes from "meta" in other parts of language (eg. "metaphysics") to refer to mean something of a higher kind, so "metagame" means "game of the game", eg. what choices people are making in perks. People started using "the meta" as shorthand for whatever was most popular in the metagame, and someone made up the "Most Effective Tactic Available" acronym afterwards as a retroactive explanation for what "meta" means. It has absolutely no validity in the etymology of "meta", which dates back to ancient Greek. I will die on this molehill
Well, I hate to sound repetitive, but I'll say it again: Legion's movement speed buff is necessary for multiple reasons, like: Getting the 5th hit more consistently, since Legion can't do anything once the survivor is already injured; Allows them to use their power for mobility, which is something the current Legion doesn't have a lot; Balances them to be more in pair with a lot of killers who are far stronger and move far faster than them; Makes them more fun to play, since most of Legion mains just want to run fast and stab people. Increasing the vaulting speed is a good addition to Legion's arsenal because it'd allow them to use their power when chasing an already injured survivor and give Legion more of a window to get a down through other ways besides hitting 5 times, ability that, although strong, isn't very common (besides, even if Legion's already better at vaulting than Wesker/Chucky/Kaneki, they are far stronger then the speedy killer, so, please, BHVR, buff Legion). Seeing scratch marks during Feral frenzy should be a given, purely because there's no rational reason as to why Legion shouldn't see scratch marks during their power and it can be very bewildering in closed maps (Scratch marks are vital to find a survivor that are not in line of sight and Legion has that disability for no good reason). Vecna's ability to Fly is to catch up with the survivors, increasing his speed and it served in my comment as an example of to why not seeing scratch marks isn't something Legion should suffer from. Spirit can't see the survivors, but survivors can't see her either, so that's not a good argument (plus, this served only as another example). Removing the fatigue's downsides is another reason as to why Legion shouldn't have those downsides in the first place. Nurse has that blur in her screen from using a overpowered ability of going through walls and Blight has that drawback from moving at 9.2 m/s, whereas Legion has that disadvantage from using their power that makes them move at 5.2 m/s. The numbers don't add up. Lastly, I didn't know that origin of "meta" word, thank you for telling me.
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@ad19970 said:
Some of these basekit changes are way, way too much. Legion just got a buff and honestly, I feel like he is in a pretty decent state now, especially for being arguably the easiest killer to play in the game.
Increasing his movement speed to 6 M/S would be broken, since it would allow him to down survivors on his 4th frenzy attack far more often, which would be awful to go against. Especially if the duration is also increased. Decreasing the cooldown of Feral Frenzy even more is also unnecessary in my opinion.
Lastly, the buff to his cancel cooldown would be way too much as well. He could just cancel his power right next to a survivor and the survivor would gain very little distance. It again would be awful to go against. I think these changes would make Legion even more hated by survivors than original Skull Merchant.
A lot to talk about this comment, but first I'll explain why Legion's current state isn't good for the killer gameplay: Legion's can get countered through several different ways, so making them move at 6 m/s would make them feel nicer to play and actually have a chance against good survivors. Legion at high MMR is unplayable, since survivor can prevent the 5th hit through these counters: Stunning the killer out of their power, running far away preventively (Legion needs to be within 13.2, 17.28, 20.16 or 23 meters from the survivor with Legion's current speed depending of which hit they're currently on and 22, 26.88, 29.76 or 32.64 meters if they'd move at 6 m/s), bodyblocking for other survivors, using exhaustion perks and changing floors in certain maps. Even with the 6 m/s buff, survivors have a lot going for them and I'm not even counting the techs survivors can do to throw killers off their game and make them wiff.
Secondly, reducing Legion's cooldown won't change how survivors play against them, but it'll make less punishing for newer survivors to make mistakes like missing an attack (even high skill players sometimes miss)
Lastly, the buff to their cooldown would only be impactful on the last hit, when Legion already downed a survivor. The more hits they successfully make, the less they need to wait when they get the 5th hit. If Legion only hits one survivor, their cooldown is now 2.3 seconds when they cancel. If the killer would hit a single survivor and go after them, the survivor gains 11.88 meters from getting hit plus 1.15 meters gained from the reduced speed of the fatigue. The lowest pallet density of the game is one pallet per 10 squared meters, so this distance gained is more than enough to reach safety.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926683#Comment_3926683
Their vault speed isn't affected by perks but their vault will apply stuff like Bamboozle for example. This is actually on purpose though because around the time of Wesker's release, bamboozle used to increase their vault speed but this was changed to keep things consistent/not cause issues with other perks in the future. I don't think this should be changed
Let me tell you why this is a good change (for Legion): The Meta perks on Dbd has always been generators slow down perks, so it's a effort of the developers to invent new types of effects, like haste, vaulting, undetectable and so on. Would you rather play against a four gen slow down killer or a niche build killer? If these changes come to the game, "oh noo, Legion can vault faster, they're gonna hit me with their power :(" So what? They'd still be able to get the hit anyways, but now they feel nicer to play as and wouldn't change how they are played against (if anything, it only improves how matches go, since instead of Ruin, Pop, Corrupt and Pain Res; it'd be like Bamboozle, Dark Arrogance, Superior Anatomy and Unbound). Still, this should be a Legion-only mechanic, since they're the weakest of all the vaulting type killers (Wesker, Chucky and Kaneki)
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I love legion, but there has to be some give and take with how we buff them, all of these together are WAY too heavy handed, I think you've put a lot of thought into this but havn't really thought about how this would be to play AGAINST, especially as a casual player.
You want to remove all counterplay from this killer when people already hate the mending simulator (I really don't like the being able to hit a survivor twice idea)? I don't understand what the issue with bodyblocking is? It's another survivor using their resources to protect a team member.
Also regarding vaulting, I thought their vault does get effected by perks?
I honestly think the issue is their addons mainly rn, I really like the spot they are in after the buffs I just don't understand the self mend to get debuffs, I prefer'd the old system of on 2nd hit onwards apply debuff.
Of course I'm talking from a casual perspective, not a comp player one.I'll explain comment by comment as to why I think these changes are necessary and will not make Legion op: Legion's ability is quite unique, allowing them to do everything the survivors can do and put them in the mend state. Now I'm gonna switch to the survivors POV: They're a killer that can hit you really easily, but then what? It's not like they have another ability to down you quickly, Legion relies on basic mind games to down any survivor and it's not easy to catch a player if they play well. Now, you might say that if Legion has 5 hits, they can down you with ease, but let me illustrate something: Legion's movement speed is 5.2m/s, whereas the survivor's is 4.0m/s; the killer's duration is 11 seconds, meaning that they can cover 57.2 meters, but the player can cover 44 meters in that time, meaning that the both need to be within 13.2 meters apart from each other for a hit to be possible. This is not much, considering that RNG is very determinating on that aspect (The survivors can start running before Legion can even get a line of sight) and it needs to happen 5 consecutive times. On top of that, new killers can easily miss the attack, not path efficiently aaand get bodyblocked, meaning that the 5th hit is almost a urban legend among high and low skill players. Now, I agree that the hitting twice might be dispensable, since it'd make some people upset, but survivors already have everything at their advantage, so increasing Legion's speed is a must for them to be able to get the 5th hit consistently (which is good for the game for the reasons I said before). The hate towards Legion is childish and the reason why they don't get the love they deserve. If you're still unconvinced, I suggest you watch the videos of best Legion main (9000 hours on Legion alone), Tatariu.
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