enormous_bruh_moment
enormous_bruh_moment
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@OutcastAndrew said:
I'm angry. I've just been trying to pip up, been one off from iri 1 all day. Does it matter? no. But that's not the point.
FIVE GAMES IN A ROW, TUNNELED. I play solo queue. YOU NERFED THE ONLY ANTI-TUNNEL PERK for ZERO REASON. ZERO. The reason was "gee people liked to use it" YEAH CAUSE THERE IS NO DISINCENTIVE FROM TUNNELING, IN FACT ITS THE BEST WAY TO WIN AS KILLER.
FIX DS, AND GIVE MASSIVE TUNNEL PENALTIES...How the hell am I supposed to play this game if literally my fate lies entirely in "does the other team play nice?"
THIS PROBLEM IS NOT GOING AWAY AND YOU'VE MADE IT WORSE. YOU'RE LOSING PLAYERS. STOP BANKING ON NEW CONTENT TO BRING IN REVENUE AND FIX THE GAME.
Just run DS + Off the Record + Dead Hard + Kinship if it bothers you this much, or if it's happening to you frequently.
Keep running that until you've learned to become a god at looping.
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@NerfedFreddy said:
Push them out and stop being baby about such minor thing
ah yes, good ol' victim blaming.
"such a minor thing"
it's a waste of time. it's literally just survivors being ######### and holding the killer hostage in the game as long as they possibly can because they're petty and they want to gloat. if you don't give them the satisfaction, then they can keep you there for 2 extra minutes.
you chase 3 out of one gate, the last 1 will be waiting at the other one for as long as possible.
it would be a minor thing if it wasn't every single game.
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I think you've overrated Demo and Wraith, and underrated Pinhead and Nemesis by a little bit.
Also I really don't see Spirit as being that strong anymore unless you're always using Mother Daughter Ring and the Yakuyoke Amulet.
She used to be one of the most bitched about killers of all time, and now you don't hear anyone so much as mentioning her at all.
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Why "fix" one of the more interesting parts of the killer and the ways in which you can use his power?
This does nothing but remove interesting play and skill ceiling from the killer.
The idea that they would remove this in the name of balance, while leaving Alchemist Ring and Compound 33 untouched, is a ######### joke.
Especially given how simple the changes to Alch Ring and c33 would be to make them balanced.
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People complain about Boons. The problem is not Boons. It's never been Boons.
It's one specific Boon.
We all know which one it is.
If you hear a boon get made, you know exactly what it is and why it's so important for you to get rid of it.
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Neme is a good user of STBFL, but he does not need it.
Specifically, because his tentacle at levels 2 and 3 give him so much strength in chase, STBFL is essentially fulfilling the same role as his power. However, by using STBFL you not only sacrifice a perk slot, you not only delay getting level 2 & 3 of your power, most importantly, you end up using your power less than you could, just to get value out of STBFL.
It can be a lot of fun and highly effective, but ultimately it isn't necessary on Neme and the playstyle you adopt to make use of it isn't as efficient as you could be.
Watch Otz's 50 win streak with Neme. (link)
He goes over the STBFL issue and I'm largely echoing his sentiments. Pay close attention to how quickly and decisively he uses his power to get hits in certain loops. I had played a lot of Neme before seeing that video and that was my biggest takeaway, that as you understand the timing and hitbox better, you start to see how scary aggressive you can be.
Also, if you're ever at a loop with anything you can see over even slightly, take a swing at it with your tentacle. You'd be surprised what you can hit over with it.
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FNAF.
It's so cringe. I've never understood how anyone was ever able to take it seriously.
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@Bran said:
My concerns are less about camping, but giving survivors basekit free unsafe unhooks the killer cannot immediately punish.
There is nothing wrong with re-downing the person instantly if you can.
I think that is an important issue that most people aren't considering. Most survivor mains just view it through the selfish lens of "tunneling bad, anything to hurt killers in this regard can't go far enough" etc
Yes tunneling is unfun, however, I don't know if giving all survivors free unsafe rescues as part of their basekit is the solution. As I've outlined in my original post, I think it could very well be part of the solution, hell it could even go further than it does now, but this can't be the only way this issue is addressed. Negative reinforcement alone is simply not going to work, killers will just double down on needing to tunnel someone out of the game at 5 gens if you don't make it easier to do otherwise.
Baskit BT is treating symptoms of the problem, not the problem itself, which means it will just shift the negativity in this interaction to the other side. If you as a survivor make awful plays, if you mess up and loop the killer around a hooked survivor, or you lead the killer right back as a rescue is happening, you and your team deserve to suffer for that mistake. Why should the game bend over backwards to protect that? How is that fair?
People are going to get really butthurt if camping gets worse and they won't understand why. Mark my words, if camping gets worse next patch all the survivor mains on twitter will start crying again about how you can't give killers ANY buffs because ALL they want to do is camp and tunnel forever!!!
As is the case in all things, if you listen to the twitter mob you'll continue to learn the wrong lessons.
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@malibu_barbie_26 said:
Killers have an incentive not to tunnel it’s called Make Your Choice. They don’t run it nearly enough. So even with positive reinforcement to not tunnel killers will still choose to tunnel.
Make Your Choice doesn't work as an appropriate incentive for multiple reasons:
- It's delayed. Not on hook, on unhook. That does nothing to encourage positive behavior directly after hook.
- It's highly inconsistent. Does nothing to uninjured survivors.
- Most importantly, the distance requirement of 32m is far enough that even if the killer somehow knew exactly where the affected survivor was, which isn't a guarantee since they'll be doing their best to run/hide; and the killer ran towards the exposed survivor immediately, over half the duration is gone by the time they'd catch up. Then they have to start looping that survivor, and if they can last for just over 20 seconds, the perk does nothing.
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@sp1n4l_ssnap said:
im constantly getting matches with Michael Myer mains who have the insta mori ability.
i literally just got out a round and only got ONE THOUSAND bloodpoints because i got insta killed? like what? and its not like there is even a counter to it or an ability to know beforehand you can just be insta killed?? who even allowed that into the game? who said ‘yeah sure lets give the really fast killer a ability to insta kill healthy survivors with addons that let Evil Within III go on infinitely’
Agreed.
Not for the reasons you stated, that sounds like a skill issue. Try Myers out and you'll see how hard it is to do that if you don't have people feeding him T3.
But get rid of it because it's an extremely un-fun mechanic for both sides.
Ditto for Sadako.
At least for Sadako you have to do some weird stupid amount of work and interaction with her power to get a mori, and even then it's still a ######### un-fun mechanic because it takes forever and a day and even if you built entirely around trying to do that and got a game where the survivors were terrible, you'd never get it off once because they do 1 tape and they're totally fine.
That concept seems like it was shoe-horned in to fit the lore/movies, or like a producer or exec absolutely insisted on it; not like it was designed by a game designer trying to think of what a fun mechanic would be.
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@IronKnight55 said:
Killers have their hands held at the moment by the devs. I'm hoping we have a fairer game in the future.
We get one killer-sided patch after dozens of survivor-sided ones in a row, and malding is endless holy #########.
The complaining you see about this patch is entirely from the contingency of predominantly below to slightly-above average Survivor players who play killer at a mediocre level if at all. Go play killer. Actually get good. It is not possibly for a sane individual to play against rank 1 SWFs —which is all you get in the red ranks— as any random killer and honestly think that the game is imbalanced in favor of killer.
@Marigoria said:
This patch and the reaction on the forums just showed me that a lot (not all™) of killer mains, at least on here, weren't really looking for fair matches but just wanted easier wins.
Project harder. This is a fairer game.
Survivors (not all™) are just bitching because they've grown entitled to results they didn't deserve, and never expected the blade of balance to ever cut the other direction. They even nerfed all of the strongest killer perks and you people still complain.
God forbid you aren't able to just hold W anymore. God forbid you can't rely on your "oops" button to reset or undo any mistake. One of your sources of infinite self-healing isn't quite as strong as the others?? No....say it ain't true doc.... ######### hell dude, you might actually need to play the damn game now. lol
Sucks to suck. Get over it.
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@BabyCameron10 said:
The perk would need to be a little more adjusted. Let’s say the timer is decreased to 40 seconds and stun timer increased to 4 seconds.
I know the Devs wanted players to use other perks but there was a reason why it was being used often before.
DS and OTR can only do so much, Survivors rarely use BT anymore and BBQ no longer encourages to go after other survivors = Increase number in tunneling.
I am asking this because playing solo survivor has been rougher with this update.
I just wish the Devs would make “Anti-Tunnel” perks, actual “Anti-tunnel perks.” They don’t really punish hardcore tunneling killers at the moment.
If it were to be updated to make the killer loose their power momentarily. The perk will be more fitting to what is shown in the 1978 film.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CCDPPBTX1NYJ/50446395-07ad-4010-8efc-2a56edbb4b5e.jpeg
Yes it would be OP.
Nurse for one is slower than survivors by default, to compensate for the strength of her power.
If you're getting tunneled, run OTR, Overcome, Quick & Quiet, and your choice for the 4th. Inner Strength to complete the meme.
You get unhooked, you have Endurance for 80s, you get hit, you have 4s+ of speed and you run far far away, you jump in a locker quietly. Killer has no chance of finding you. You could use Lucky Break as well, or combine this with Inner Strength so you're healed up by the time you wanna leave the locker. gg
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Yeah. Survivors do need to git gud.
And some of them have, it's already been mentioned but there's a group that has a 500+ 4-man escape streak, that is currently ongoing. They only stopped because they got bored of doing gens all the time, and quit the game.
Alf is one of the best if not the single best Nurse player in the entire community, going against randoms? That's impressive for sure, but not incredibly surprising. Nurse has probably the highest skill ceilings, with respect to her effectiveness.
You people get one killer-sided patch after dozens of survivor sided ones, and instantly start shitting their pants. Like, holy #########, calm down. Go play Nurse.
I'm serious, go take a couple weeks and actually learn how to play Nurse. Get consistent with her, your mmr will go up, you'll start winning a bunch, you'll think you're hot #########, and then....then you'll start playing against players who will utterly destroy you and make you look pathetic.
It'll change the way you think about Nurse forever.
The real problems are with solo queue, and we all know it. We just need to make enough noise about it that the devs adjust their plans and get to it sooner rather than later. Sooner as in, the very next balance patch.
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It must be the former.
Although, that includes if you've gotten 3 kills and the hatch spawns.
Still feels like bullshit though.
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Just finished another game as Blight, different map, different survivors, got the invitation before the game ended and it's not giving me masks.
This is bullshit.
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@Marcavecunc said:
Because they're event generators, same reason hooks are orange, they're event hooks.
Which is ridiculous since every generator and hook are event generators and hooks. But it's a remnant from older events where only certain hooks and gens were event-themed and gave bonus points. So I agree it's weird to have them a different colour than usual if it serves no purpose.
I know they're event generators and event hooks, I'm not asking literally "why is this happening" I'm asking "why was this decision made?"
Killers don't need to know which gens are event gens. Ever. Especially not if all of them are event gens. It changes nothing about their play, all it does is create additional difficulties.
I've already made multiple threads complaining about colorblind features and how the auras are basically impossible for me to see on certain maps. So I try to rely on Discordance instead. It makes it so much more difficult and frustrating to play killer during this event.
Between that and the invitations being nearly impossible to find, I honestly don't want to even play it the event anymore. :l
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I made a thread about this as well, with some pretty good/extensive responses.
Every single person is in full agreement that it's a terrible filter, and that has no place in a game that's rated M.
Devs and community manages refuse to respond to this issue the community keeps on bringing up and feels strongly about, but they do manage to make plenty of time to talk about peoples pets or other inane crap.
Make of this what you will.
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@GoshJosh said:
I smell a kill switch coming soon™.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WQVFEZQCLA75/43bdba92-af02-464c-8c07-d518e0d40687.jpeg
It can't come quickly enough.
Also it can stay forever. Same goes for Haddonfield. And the corn maps.
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2817434#Comment_2817434
I agree completely. Like this game is rated M already it's not meant for children. I'm fine with people not wanting to see slurs or anything of that nature and so a chat filter should exist but it not being toggleable is ######### stupid.
But will anything be done about it? Will anyone from BHVR communicate to us the community, about this issue?
People involved with BHVR have seen it, hell one of them edited my original post somehow. Maybe it was a moderator or something sure, and I know mods most likely are not employees, but they have community managers and they have the time to talk to people about pictures of their cats or w/e.
I'm not saying that I alone am somehow special, but if you have someone like me who makes a thread about an issue with the game they feel passionately about, and it gets like a page full of people responding and upvoting one another's comments all saying that they agree and hold the same opinion about this issue, how is this not something that community managers should respond to?
What are you and I as members of this community meant to think about the community managers whose job it is to read and engage with issues raised by the community?
If I'm to be charitable and try not to presume malice i.e. that it's specifically because I am being critical in my framing of the issue, I'm left to presume ignorance/incompetence.
I'll probably try and verify that it is one or the other directly by making another thread about this putting everything as politely and simply as possible, just, directly asking for comment about the chat filter and its aggressiveness.
So far no one has touched this issue aside from editing my original post for me/without my consent, so I can't say I'm optimistic.
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@gilgamer said:
honestly the fact that the sensor even reacts to words other then slurs is kinda stupid.
The fact the player can't choose to say "no thanks BHVR, I'm an adult, I can handle seeing words you don't like." is absurdly stupid.
It's one thing for BHVR to have their absolutely ludicrous levels of censorship in their chat filter. Overzealous, ridiculous, needlessly behaving like a moral busibody? All that and more, but sure, maybe some particularly weak and pathetic, emotionally insecure people really do appreciate having that. Go for it.
It's another thing entirely to have such an overreaching and restrictive system of censorship, and to NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO DISABLE IT.
That's extremely controlling, oppressive, and tyrannical. Unless you're dealing with literal children there is zero justification for not allowing people to turn it off if they want to see what other people are saying.
Seriously BHVR, who the hell do you think you are? What right of yours is it to control what I'm allowed to see? What business is it of yours what I choose to say to other players or what they say to me? Yes you made the game, but I'm the one playing it with someone else. Not you. Neither of us care what you think about what we say.
If they do, they can leave the filter on! Just put a disclaimer in when you disable it "if you choose to disable this filter, you are taking responsibility for your own emotions and you will not be allowed to submit reports about toxic chats" or w/e.
Again, my problem is not with the filter existing.
You can try fruitlessly to babyproof the internet all you want. Knock yourself out. My problem is that you won't let us choose anything other than your censorship.
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@AlbinoViera said:
The chat filter is perfect for a game like this though. We can't have young people see swear words, especially children.
I mean the game isn't even rated 18+ or anything and it definitely doesn't depict people being killed or mutilated. There's not even any partial nudity, like there's no character that's barely covered by a few bandages or anything. And they certainly haven't modeled a character's nudity in any way. So a character like Yui is perfectly covered no matter where you look in the files, ya know?
For a game as child-friendly and innocent as this, swears and mean words are a big no no.
I like your funny words magic man.
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Sticks and stones.
I'm sure there is some tiny fringe minority of players that are extremely vocal about complaining when anyone says or does anything that remotely offends them, but the correct response is to tell those people to gtfo the internet if they can't handle something as powerless as words.
The overwhelming majority seems to hate this bullshit. Literally every single person I've asked about it in game, irl, and even here on the forums.
No one wants it to be this way. Everyone thinks it's stupid and terrible.
Why is this not at least a filter you can disable if you choose? It makes no sense.
The only explanation I can think of is that Canada as a nation doesn't seem to believe in freedom, and that maybe they have some atrocious legislation that BHVR is forced to be in compliance with? But no one I've asked knows if that would be so, idk.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2804847#Comment_2804847
Sure, but that's hardly a SAFETY issue.
Modern corpo speak + you gotta remember BHVR is in Canada.
Are you truly "safe" if you can risk having your feelsies hurt?
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@OpenX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2762107#Comment_2762107
...how does ANY of that help you in a 1v1 when all your teammates are dead? DS + Deliverance? You just die on the hook instantly because its 1v1.
There's only the hatch and the exit gates available in the scenario he is asking for. There is only 1 perk that finds the hatch for you, and with a key you can get out through it even if the killer finds it first.
There's only like 3-4 perks that open those exit gates faster, and wake up is the strongest % wise.
Perks to loop the killer don't matter. You have to break the chase outright, find the hatch mid-chase (so left behind is still the best perk), or die.
People already said Left Behind + Wake Up, I think I recommended it as well.
The other builds are largely to do with 1v1 in general, or just prioritizing your own survival and how well you can do in chases.
If you/the op is referring to a situation stricter than that, then they can feel free to specify or pick and choose.
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@AetherBytes said:
Title. What perks would you bring if you're expecting to get into a 1V1 scenario with the killer (all other survivors are dead)?
First 2 perks are non-negotiable:
- Dead Hard
- Iron Will
Which leaves you 2 slots to experiment and decide what scenarios you're trying to deal with best.
- Two exhaustion perks is usually terrible, but if you run Windows of Opportunity + Balanced Landing on top of that, you will be able to run any Killer on any map.
- Resilience + Spine Chill gives you the vault speed build. Spine Chill also lets you get a head start on running, which is far stronger than most players seem to realize. Just running as early as you can will make life miserable for the Killer. Not to mention Spine Chill also gives you nearly perfect info to win Exit Gate opening 1v1's in the endgame.
- If you're looking for self reliant longevity and don't trust your team to survive, Decisive Strike + Boon: Circle of Healing.
- If you are looking to not rely on your team for anything, Deliverance + Decisive Strike.
- Swap out Dead Hard for Lithe and add Quick & Quiet + Dance With Me, and pretty much any chase you get into with the Killer just ends the second you find a place to vault.
- Scott Jund recently made a video about meme builds he tried that were too good to be memes, the one that might pique your interest was Overcome + Lucky Break + Inner Healing (Inner Strength) + Quick and Quiet. It does require that you break a totem first, but you can swap out Q&Q for Small Game or something if you have trouble finding totems. But basically you get hit, run a million miles away while leaving no blood or scratch marks, and jump in a locker to instantly heal.
- You could also take Left Behind + Wake Up if you're really just going for that endgame.
I would strongly suggest taking Windows of Opportunity just in general if you're trying to do better in chases. Even for skilled players its info is invaluable. It can turn average players into strong loopers, and strong loopers into gods. Especially after its buff to 32m with no cooldown.
An alternative to all of this, is to just accept that you'll get dunked on and run something like Flashbang + Blast Mine + Decisive Strike (or Deliverance) + Head On and take the game way less seriously. Just have fun trying to use your perks on the Killer as many times as you can in a match. Or try to pull off the wombo combo of Head On stun -> drop Flashbang -> back into locker to craft Flashbang #2 -> Decisive Strike -> drop Flashbang #2.
Another dumb fun one is Lithe + Iron Will + Dance With Me + Flashbang. The goal with this build is to run up to a pallet, drop the Flashbang directly under the pallet, pallet-stun the Killer (forcing them to be blinded & deafened by the Flashbang) and then immediately vault back over the pallet to make your escape while the killer is stunned/blind/deaf. It's hard, but it's also hilarious.
Best of luck out there.
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It's a complicated design problem, to try and understand what it is that makes the killer so bad for most skill brackets, and so good for a select few near the top.
This is still the first I've ever heard of Twins being remotely strong though. I need to see these Twins mains who have some of the highest kill rates to believe it.
They need to lean into the coolest aspect of the Twins' design, which is the ability to switch between 2 places at once with different powers tied to both killers. By making it slow and sluggish, that kills that concept dead.
imo they need to sit down and talk to these mythical, alleged, "high kill-rate Twins players" and figure out with them what it is that makes the killer OP, and what makes them so terrible for everyone else.
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pls
what is in there
also ######### I voted blue
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@dugman said:
For reference DbD’s default FOV is 87 degrees which is well above the minimum to avoid nausea on televisions and in the acceptable range for computer monitors up close. Adding a few extra degrees probably wouldn’t hurt though.
As far as I know, 90 is considered standard for most PC environments. That said, anecdotally, I don't know anyone who prefers anything below 110.
Commonly, games will cap it at 120 or 130, and I've seen lots of players that just max the FoV in every game they touch.
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@RenRen said:
What exactly is the hitbox on nemesis's tentacle? Whenever I use it, it seems like it should hit but doesn't.
Otz explained it very well with good 3D visual aides.
https://youtu.be/Jx0EaeZUAU4?t=284 -
Legion & Ghostface both need full reworks imo. But that's not gonna happen so, barring that, some simple changes that could alleviate some of their issues and keep them unique:
Legion
- Lethal Frenzy vaulting speed becomes base-kit.
- Missing an attack in Lethal Frenzy and hitting the same survivor don't end your power.
- Subsequent attacks on the same survivor inflict mangled and then hindered, neither of which expire until healed.
- Hitting different survivors boosts your movespeed by 10% per unique survivor hit, naturally caps at 40%.
- Post-frenzy fatigue last 1 second.
Ghostface
- Make his power passive, but expires and goes on a 30s cooldown when he insta-downs someone.
- Remove the reveal mechanic.
- Normal Terror Radius at all times.
- Make stalking faster if they're outside your Terror Radius
- Have his terror radius shrink depending on the % of stalk he has on someone. 50% stalked = half his normal TR. 99% stalked = 1% TR.
- Make his stalk automatically stop at 99%, requiring that you tap it again to bring it to 100%.
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@Johann84 said:
This game is survivor sided, the only fun side to play is survivor. Where you can do mistakes and get away with it. Killers do 1 mistake and its game over. With the introduction of boon totems its almost impossible to win as killer. Hit validation is an insult where u get the hit but it does not even register. Even low rank survivors have an easy time to win. GG Behavior you have ######### up your game
We know.
/thread
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The fact that you can't mute or disable the killer menu volume is absurd.
I have my volume mixer pinned to my taskbar to mute DBD whenever I'm not in-game.
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Tons of addons for many killers are absolute garbage. Just, utterly worthless.
Don't waste your time trying to understand how their effects could somehow some way actually be good enough to warrant being that high a rarity; the devs clearly didn't.
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Bubba brutally murders people, butchers them, and wears their skin as a mask.
How is the race of his victim the problem in this whole process? Why is this remotely relevent?
You people are just looking to be offended at anything you possibly can. It doesn't matter. Sticks and stones. Move on.
If you can't handle it, then you are too fragile to exist online.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2653051#Comment_2653051
I get your point and i agree legion is in a bad place, but you shouldnt force someone to play something they dont like.
Not everyone likes Demo,Nurse,blight;oni,huntress, Plague, Bubba,spirit or Nemesis. I for one only like playing 2 of those and none of them are the ones i truly love playing. My choices are Legion,ghostface and Pig. Yes all the garbo killers but what can i do i hate playing ranged or teleporting wheezing lady.
People dont have fun in this game if they are forced to play something that they hate just to kill people and this is where issue lies as well
I'm not forcing anyone to play anything. People can play w/e they like.
I'm just saying that winning is pretty fun, and if you don't want to get stomped and bullied relentlessly ingame, there's a short list of killers with a strong power, high skill ceilings, and interesting depth to their mechanics that make for fun games and fun times mastering them.
Lot of killers that pretty much have nothing going for them, and are in practice end up being stock standard M1 stabby mans. Imo, it gets real frustrating real quick.
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@Mazoobi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2653935#Comment_2653935
Because your original post sounded like another BT complaint which ticks me off, but if that wasn't your intention, then everything's good.
I'm not sure how one could come to that conclusion after reading what I wrote, but aight.
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@Tekno_Badger said:
There is no good fix to this. Every anti-camping measure that has been tested was immediately abused by survivors, and the game simply isn't balanced enough to remove camping/tunneling, especially for weak killers like Legion or something. For any anti-tunnel or anti-camping measure implemented, gen speeds should be slowed. That's the only way to ensure balance
I went into more detail in my previous post, but it's because you can't just attack the issue from one side.
You can't only discourage and punish tunneling/camping, barring toxicity, most people do it because it's the most ruthlessly efficient way to apply pressure to the entire team.
You need to reward, encourage, and incentivize killers to do something else. Gen speeds is one thing, but something akin to how Devour Hope gives you a reward if you are far enough away from the hook when the rescue occurs? That concept in and of itself is a very good idea. You could add something to the base kit that acts in much the same way.
You might be interested in my previous post that outlines what I think are the 3 main reasons for tunneling/camping.
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@Terramortius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2653068#Comment_2653068
Yeah so what if it's a game? So I can't use real life ways of handling things? If it seems to work in real life, I'm sure we can try it in a game as well.
If you're asking me to think of why killers are camping and tunneling, even when i play a 4 pax party game, my friends and I are all GENERALLY well mannered people. We don't do toxic things UNLESS they camp or tunnel us, yes, being toxic to a toxic person isn't right either, I know. What I'm trying to say here who are you to say that we surv mains started this whole back and forth toxic cycle? The killers started that bad behavior. Not us.
To fix that, add punishment to the bad behavior. Not reward them for behaving differently. If they don't behave toxic and stop camping/ tunneling THEN you add the incentives for not camping/tunneling. Your "why should I" logic is what makes the world more toxic.
If you see an old lady who falls on the road with heavy traffic. Are you just going to ask yourself "why should I help her?" It's the exact same thing here.
I'm not saying we're dogs but I've had experience training dogs and if you had any too, let me ask you...
Your dog has a habit of peeing and taking dumps on your bed. Are you going to wait till the dog stops doing it and reward it or punish the dog when it does the undesirable behavior? Again, the exact same logic.
You can "use real life ways of handling things" but if your understanding of the issues is flawed and your metaphors don't fit the topic at hand, as is the case, then you'll be frustrated when your ways of handling things, fail to produce the results you want.
There is no "back and forth toxicity cycle" or some sort of ancient history from which the people of the killer main nation are responding to all perceived transgressions of the nation survivor mains, or vice versa. No one "started" anything, you're viewing this from too abstract a level, when you need to be dealing with it on a specific, individual level.
Your real life metaphors don't accurately relate to what you're attempting to describe. My "why should I" logic is mere pragmatism. Perfectly reasonable for this issue, and for designing gameplay systems. Old lady falls in the road with heavy traffic, you help her because you have a moral duty to not see others come to harm when you can prevent it. Because it is morally good and virtuous for you to care for others.
This does not apply in a game where your goal is to have fun, and to competitively attempt to win. You have no moral duty to make the other side happy about losing, there is no virtue in refusing to utilize the most ruthless and effective strategies. Your metaphor applies more to survivors on the same team, when a teammate is hooked. Not to killers, trying to kill all of the survivors.
I actually have trained dogs. If you have trained dogs, then you know that dogs differ from humans in that dogs live entirely in the now. They have little to no understanding of the past or future. They don't understand yesterday, or even much of the concept of the previous hour. If they do something wrong, and you wait 5 minutes to admonish them, they won't connect their actions to your corrections. They won't understand, and will merely react to you punishing them in that moment. You have to give treats immediately for good behavior to encourage the correct association, you have to admonish quickly so they understand the negative behavior. This is why if you baby your dog for several minutes any time you accidentally step on their foot, you are training them that whining is rewarded with attention. If you look at what dogs do to other dogs when they are injured, they come look and see what the noise is about, and move on. So for dogs, you need to do the same. Quick attention and concern, but don't linger on it.
There is no "waiting until the negative behavior stops to reward the player", you're making a lot of weird assumptions about what I'm saying, so I'll try to make it clearer. There is no waiting for anything. Again, you're viewing it from too abstract a level. You need to think about why the player tunnels. Ignoring purely toxic players bc you can't ever fully mitigate human evil, imo killers tunnel/camp for some combination of 3 reasons:
- They don't know where anyone else is, and this is their best bet at getting another hook. (information)
- They're not confident in their ability to act on the info of where other players are. (fear, lack of confidence)
- They believe that focusing 1 player down and getting them out of the game asap is more effective than switching targets and allowing the team to recover and reset. (ruthless efficiency)
So if you want to discourage players from tunneling as much as you can, you need to design around mitigating each of those factors by de-incentivizing the negative behavior around each one, and incentivizing the behavior that you do want, for each point.
How you go about that is a fun and interesting challenge, but you need to understand this approach for problem solving before you can actually solve problems at their roots. This is derived from something called Design Thinking, and it's extremely useful. I recommend doing your own research into it.
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@Mazoobi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2653043#Comment_2653043
Killers do apparently care because it's always the same moaning and groaning about BT being used to take protection hits.
But yes thank you, I usually take BT protection hits + stab killers and I don't need to complain about being tunneled afterward because if they decide to continue going after me, I accomplished my job. Not only did I just waste more of their time, but I just gave it to my team to do gens and possibly give someone who was dead-on-hook to recover back to the game. I personally don't mind being back on the hook as my role on my SWF is to waste as much time as possible from the killer. As long as my efforts contribute, then being killed is trivial to me. Actually, I find it cute when I get tunneled. (To answer your first paragraph, yeah we're good)
This "moaning and groaning" isn't about BT being used to take protection hits. That's fair game. Everything you can do in the game is fair game, including tunneling and camping.
This "moaning and groaning" is about survivors squandering the tools available to them to prevent tunneling, and then proceeding to ######### about tunneling and camping later. It's hypocritical to sweat and use your perks in a tryhard way, and then ######### and moan about killers doing the same.
If this does not describe you, I don't know why you're replying to my posts as if it does.
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@Terramortius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2653028#Comment_2653028
I mean people don't need to prestige but it does grant higher rewards so they need to rework that for killers since the only real thing that matters in rarity is addons. Offerings present a very minimal effect even in the purple tiers.
Aside from that, there's a better idea, that "echoed" thing. Nice idea there. You should have voiced your ideas first tho if you had one.
I outlined the basics of this "echoed" idea in the post you were responding to.
Imo they should do something else/different/better for incentivizing prestige systems. Just like they should actually do something for the devotion levels.
I'll probably write up a suggestion for the tierless addons/echoed addon system at some point. Glad you liked it tho. :D
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@Terramortius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2652998#Comment_2652998
Your idea here is that if people are not toxic, they should be rewarded. So doesn't that mean my government should give me pay raises because I didn't commit crimes my whole life? Nope. That logic is wrong.
Good behavior is good behavior. Good behavior is not "not displaying bad behavior". There's a difference.
Punish the bad, reward the good. Not reward the "didn't do bad things" and reward the good.
Abused how? If you camp, of course it will be abused. If you decide to wait right outside the range and proxy camp, people can just show you that they're unhooking but don't actually unhoook to make you come back so the timer gets slowed again. If you don't read the idea and think in depth first before you talk, please don't comment.
This is a game, not justice/morality irl.
If you want to change a type of behavior, you need to first understand exactly why it is occurring, and then encourage the desired behavior while discouraging the undesired one.
Think pragmatically.
If there is no incentive, no good reason encouraging players to play in less ruthlessly effective ways, why would they ever do it? Why should they? Your response is wrong, you need to give a little to get a little here. I disagree quite a bit with the op's proposed solution, but this is a core concept in design based thinking that is undeniably true.
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@Terramortius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2652998#Comment_2652998
Your idea here is that if people are not toxic, they should be rewarded. So doesn't that mean my government should give me pay raises because I didn't commit crimes my whole life? Nope. That logic is wrong.
Good behavior is good behavior. Good behavior is not "not displaying bad behavior". There's a difference.
Punish the bad, reward the good. Not reward the "didn't do bad things" and reward the good.
Abused how? If you camp, of course it will be abused. If you decide to wait right outside the range and proxy camp, people can just show you that they're unhooking but don't actually unhoook to make you come back so the timer gets slowed again. If you don't read the idea and think in depth first before you talk, please don't comment.
This is a game, not justice/morality irl.
If you want to change a type of behavior, you need to first understand exactly why it is occurring, and then encourage the desired behavior while discouraging the undesired one.
Think pragmatically.
If there is no incentive, no good reason encouraging players to play in less ruthlessly effective ways, why would they ever do it? Why should they? Your response is wrong, you need to give a little to get a little here. I disagree quite a lot with the op's solution, but this is a core concept in design based thinking that is undeniably true.
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@xxshyguyxx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2652979#Comment_2652979
I like the leigon though. He's fun, and looks cool. He's there, has content you can buy, therefore should be a threat like the others.
For one I think it'd stupid his base frenzy is as short as it is. You can't down survivors with his power, so why is it so limited? He should be able to get from one end of the map to the other no problem b4 he goes through his massive crippling cool down.
"He should be this, he should be that" There's a ton of things that "should" be when it comes to this game, but they aren't. And with the pace/principles by which the devs balance content, that ######### may never happen.
Your only choice is to deal with reality as it is, and adjust your expectations accordingly lest you set yourself for miserable situations like the one you just described.
Fact is, Legion ######### sucks.
He can look as cool as he wants, he can have all the best cosmetics, he can do w/e he currently does, but the fact remains that he's a pathetic garbage tier killer that is absolutely miserable to play because of it.
You and I could talk all day about how his power boils down to "hoping the entire team is hanging out in the exact same spot" or how his fatigue from using it is asininely long, or about how he incentivizes people to do the strongest possible strat survivors have: splitting up 1 to a gen and repairing while injured. Or any number of dumb things that make Legion utterly terrible. But we shouldn't, because we can't change any of that #########.
Save your energy.
Learn to play Demo, Nurse, Blight, Oni, Huntress, Bubba, Plague, Spirit or Nemesis or something. Play someone that's a c t u a l l y f u n, and will reward you for your time investment. You'll be so much less frustrated and miserable this way, than if you slam your head into the brick wall that is the devs unwillingness to buff ######### killers.
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@Mazoobi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2652870#Comment_2652870
It depends on the situation...
If the killer can insta-down via either power or exposed status effect proccing, then I'll be a GOOD TEAMMATE and try to protect my rescuer by the BT they gave me. It's called teamwork boo. I'm not going to let you get an easy down because you decided to stay in front of me.
DS is always on my build so if you want to pick me up, go for it. Not to mention, I like to play with friends so teamwork is what will help us through.
Killers are always riding on the "I'll play however I like" train so we survivors will use our own strategies too.
Ok. No one cares.
What you're describing isn't a relevant to my point, instadowns or anything, no difference. You can do w/e you want, bodyblock and DS to your heart's content, scot free as long as you don't ######### about getting tunneled or w/e afterwards. If you aren't complaining or expectant of killers to play the way you want, then my post has no relevance to you and we're all good here.
Although, it's worth considering that the game isn't balanced for SWF/coordinated communications, it's balanced around solo queue. So your "killers always ride the I'll play how I want train, and survivors will too" point doesn't quite have equal merit. But that's not on you, that's on the devs for refusing to balance the game around SWF's.
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@Terramortius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2652969#Comment_2652969
Your idea of no tiers is a completely different ball game there.
There will be a problem of getting people to prestige 3 a killer because the addons are all same tier. So the bonus in rarity for prestige matters less.
How to price them, bloodweb them etc is another issue.
And then there's a variety issue and balancing issue. Sometimes you want an addon to give maybe a 10m effect. Placing 10m on 1 addon means that he can take another addon. Having tiers, you can make him take 2 addons to add up to 10m.
All that being said, I think the current tier thing is perfect, just that some effects need to be tweaked just a slight bit.
You don't need to "get people to prestige". In fact, given that the "bonus drop rates" for higher tier addons is so small that it can't even be measured to show a tangible effect across hundreds of bloodwebs averaged out, it's actually in your best interest not to prestige at all. If they wanna incentivize it, they could do so easily.
There's no sense in refusing to consider changing a poorly designed system just bc it renders the systems built upon it redundant. Especially if those systems sole purpose for existing is to attempt to mitigate the original one's flaws.
Your example is easy.
Say 10m is a balanced yet strong version of the effect you've designed. In the tierless system, you make the addon 8m. and let the "echoed" effect of not using any other addons, be 12m. A very strong version of that effect, but a gamble, since you forego any others.
There doesn't need to be any more nuance than that, and honestly? In practice, there isn't. No one uses the brown or yellow addons unless they've run out of Purples/Greens, or if they're like Demo and their only good addons are yellow/brown, and all the rest suck.
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Get good.
Look up some videos, learn how to run against her.
Better yet, play as her, and see how hard it is and what makes it harder, and then do that yourself.
You'll change your tune real quick.
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@xxshyguyxx said:
Honestly man I'm disgusted, and absolutely sick and tired of swf. It's been a massive issue for years, and on here and reddit killers complain in massive quantities, as a matter of fact it's the biggest issue most killers have.
I hop on wanting to have a good time in the morning before I start my day. Just wanna play a few matches and grind some bloodpoints to lvl up my killers. I need alot of perks for them bc I just switched to PC.
I play legion, and immediately I get paired with a an swf group where all 4 of them are running BT, DH, DSTRIKE, and some form of speed perk, ontop of 3 of them running purple flashlights with insta blind add-ons and one had the healing boon.
All match, they clicked at me, teabagged every chance they got, grouped up on gens while I was chasing someone else. Abused deadhard to make it to windows and pallets for free when they should have been downed, then had the audacity to teabag and taunt after the free escape like the did something great. Abused borrowed time by standing still teabaghing knowing he was invincible and then I hit him, and the free speed rush got him to a pallet where he teabagged some more.
I got three hooks. Then they decided to take the end game hostage and all three clicked and tried to blind me until I forced them out the gate. The last one just used deadhard to the exit gate for a free escape. Weeeee... so hard. Playing survivor is a joke. The devs hold their hands man. Then they act cocky like they are actually playing well or like pros. Dude, you ALL have second chance perks. You all are coordinating. Lmao.
This is constantly happening. I can't play the game and just enjoy myself. It's nothing but bully fests. Match after match after match.
I have a match like this, and I already just wanna quit. It's awful. Why won't the devs address how strong this is? It's a joke. You can feel how disadvantaged you are going against this. 16 perks and add-ons and coordinating!? Seriously?
It would be different if this was a rare encounter but I'm legit finding myself doing these kind of matches almost every other match I play. It's constant.
Teams need caps! Or killers need boosts against teams! Period! Killers don't play this game just be jesters for bully teams that wanna be A-holes. We want to enjoy ourselves too, and if we can't.
We just leave! Then your ttv squads can just stream lobbies all day for their followers Instead.
Their behavior is appalling. I've never in my life played a game this toxic. I assumed the MMR would help but I haven't seen any difference really.
The first time I play a killer the first match is fine, then immediately I'm playing against nothing but squads. Swf is getting worse and more common these days.
Your mistake was playing Legion.
Legion ######### sucks ass, especially in this meta. Legitimately one of the worst killers, if not the worst killer in the game.
The devs' mistake is hubris.
They need to buff the solo survivor experience to be as close to being on par with the SWF experience as possible, and then buff killers to be able to compete on the same level.
You can't stop people from playing with their friends, and you shouldn't want or try to either. The devs need to accept that it's a part of the game, and balance around it. They're already in the difficult position of being tasked with trying to balance an asymmetric multiplayer game, they aren't doing themselves any favors by stubbornly insisting on balancing for solo queue.
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@Terramortius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2642168#Comment_2642168
A little bit unrelated to your statement but I really wish they made all seeing tiers. So like...
Yellow all seeing addon - 6m
Green all seeing addon - 8m
Purple all seeing addon - 10m
So if we want to stack purple and green it becomes 18m and that stops you from using another add on.
Addon tiers are fundamentally bad design already and should be removed.
There should only be 1 version of each type of addon, and all addons should be buffed or nerfed accordingly. Addon tiers only exist to pad out bloodwebs and keep people grinding BP for longer, growing a long term investment in playing the game, bc that incentivizes spending money on the game over time.
You could make a flimsy argument for their being 2 tiers of addons, with the 2nd tier being merely 50% strength or minor additional effect or w/e, to enable people to double down on a specific effect and allow build diversity in that regard, but since that concept is the same thing just applied to every existing addon, it doesn't need to be an additional tier of addons, it should just be something you get by default if you don't equip a 2nd addon, you'd automatically get this "echo" of the addon you do have equipped.
But they're prolly never gonna do that, so in the meantime, yeah the All Seeing nerf to 8m was also too harsh. Should've been to 10m.
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If survivors try to use their BT to bodyblock, they can go right back on the hook.
The purpose of BT is to avoid getting tunneled, part of the risk your rescuer takes is that they're meant to present a more tempting chase target than your injured ass; but if your rescuer made the mistake of saving you directly in front of me, and you squander your BT to try and compensate for that, then no. You're fair game again.
That said, all of these are arbitrary self imposed restrictions, to be discarded entirely should the gloves need come off. Survivor's should recognize that killers are under no obligation to handicap themselves and deliberately choose less efficient strategies.
They expect these self imposed handicaps in service of what end? Mercy? The same mercy the survivors showed the killer? The DH, BT, DS, Unbreakable, Iron Will, Prove Thyself, Boon totems, fat medkits and toolboxes, that kind of "mercy"? Hypocrites.
Just ignore ppl malding over how you played. If they aren't a fan of how I killed them they can cry me a river.
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@Onyx_Blue said:
I'd take old Wraith over this weak piece of crap any day.
It took the devs, what, 4 updates to change 3 things:
- True Invisibility so he can't be spotted from long distances trying to be sneaky.
- Swapped his huge Surprise Attack lunge for fast Cloaked movement speed.
- Add-on adjustments.
I would happily take the lunge over movement speed any day. No idea why they caved to people saying "he has no pressure" well guess what ladies, I was right, now he has no pressure where it actually counts. The guy has zero chase potential at his disposal, and even his ability to get close and grant free injuries is crapper, if survivors hear you coming or see you coming, the nerfed lunge makes it so you don't even get that hit XD Wraith is actually god awful now. Down there with Freddy and Legion. Potentially back to being considered the comparative worst killer again.
Honestly yeah, the old lunge was essentially his entire power. That was what let his power get hits. Now he has nothing except minor map mobility.
This seems to have just been survivor mains crying about the lunge hits catching them off-guard bc it requires that you pay attention and play around it. But their seething has paid off.
It's bad enough that his snarling constantly announce his presence, and that his uncloaking/cloaking whoosh noise make his silent bell addon nearly worthless, and that the uncloak speed even with addons is insanely long.
Wraith wasn't OP before, but now I'm distinctly not scared of him at all. if he cloaks, I know he can't hit me unless I mess up or get caught out super far away from anything.