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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595280#Comment_3595280
Since we're bringing other genres in, how about how it works with fighting games, where 60/40 is considered a fair match? There are also 70/30 and even 80/20 but those are much less common in balanced games, and there are still people crazy and stubborn enough to roll those dice.
DBD has too many outliers to hammer down what any overall advantage is, stuff like maps/loadouts/swf/etc all change your chances in one direction or the other. What on paper can be a 55/45 could end up as 40/60 based on the impact of said variables.
Modern Fighting games are, at least those which are very cometetive, overall very well ballanced. Just look at SF6 for example. The most powerful Character is at +2,08%, the worst at -2%. If you play random vs random character, winning chances are on average almost exactly 50%.
Sure, there are everywhere some stinkers. But that does not mean DBD has to be one of them.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595257#Comment_3595257
Unfortunate.
The game is pretty balanced now and, personally, I find it more 'chill' on both sides than it ever has been before.
Look at the player base?
Yeah, the game is still trending high on Steam (BEFORE the latest chapter) and is in the top percentile on each platform it exists on in terms of player count.
Sure, everyone sees it a little different. If you like the current state of the game, its fine. I completly disagree at all, Killer is almost always 4K now for me, SWF is still easy and Solo is a Nightmare. All changes in the past years were hurting solo players the most, which is arguably the majority of players.
The playerbase peeked in 2021 if i am not mistaken. Since then, it only went downhill. If i would have had shares of this company, they would have been (hopefully) realisticly sold long time ago since the future is looking not very good.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3594542#Comment_3594542
You continue to conflate KILL rate and WIN rate. Peanits already did a good job of explaining why they differentiate the two.
The difference between solo and SWF isn't the topic here and while teamwork is one of the primary counters to killer powers, a solo team still has all the tools they need available to achieve good teamwork.
Of course a PUG group will not perform the same as a pre-made that's true of any online setting PVP or otherwise, its not a revelation to make that point. Its also not a counter my point, that the intrinsic threat of elimination is what makes the survivor experience what it is and that intrinsic threat is represented in an expected killer bias in KILL rate.
Whether people find that fun or not is up to the individual but I think DBD has a pretty good take on it with the current KILL rate stats.
Quote Peanits: "If we're talking about solely kills, kill rate and win rate are equal."
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3594542#Comment_3594542
10% is absolutely not a lot.
It is less than the difference between an extra kill/escape. To feel 10%, you would need to play at least three games, and instead of an average of three 2Ks, it would be two 2Ks and one 3K.
Not a lot? For a competetive game?
Look for example LoL, which is by no means perfectly ballanced:
We track millions of LoL games played every day gathering champion stats, matchups, builds & summoner rankings, as well as champion stats, popularity, winrate, teams rankings, best items and spells.Or remember Starcraft when Protoss was considered overpowered because of less the 1% edge overall?
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@Bloodwebs said:
Skull merchant is the most unfair killer ever released imo. Not surprised at her percentage at all.
She is unfair, sure but not even close to how crazy Mega Blink Nurse was.
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@Raccoon said:
OP's recent posts really have me wondering why they play the game.
I love it and i hate it. I love it for what it used to be, what i can be and i hate it what it has become.
I wish they would get their stuff together and finally hit back the road. I WANT BHVR to succeed and it blows my mind how far off they are right now.
And its not only a random opinion from a random guy, i speak the same as an entire community that basically has changed from enthusiasts to absolutly not liking this game anymore. I saw dozens of people loving this game and almost all of them left. And the reasons are exactly those i point out.
FYI: I left the game for over 2 years, and i am super close to make it to another two or more. I know, this is just one person talking, who cares, but look at the playerbase. Looks overall not that great unfortunatly. For me easy to see why.
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@Nazzzak said:
With the exception of Skull Merchant (and to a lesser extent, imo, Knight) I think they've all been fine.
That is your opinion and i am glad not everybody thinks the same way of course since this would be more boring then those killers i listed. But your opinion is probably outnumbered by the community. There is like a 0% chance a killer like Skull Merchant or Alien will ever be voted for top 10 most fun killer to play against and the named killer will likly most of not all the time in those top votings. At least at the current state.
It is rather like this:
TOP 5 most ANNOYING Killers in Dead by Daylight!All footage recorded LIVE on https://www.twitch.tv/braindbdMy main channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/...Or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRXLmaQH2C0I could not find a single vote with XX tousend+ votes where a killer like Knight is even close to the top 10 most fun killer.
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@Xernoton said:
If we're going by that, then every killer in the history of DBD has been awful and the game died 7 years ago. Only that's not really the case, is it?
There are killers that definitely need some changes but honestly, what do you want? Wesker has been extremely popular and survivors have massively complained him. Because they only saw that specific killer again and again. Designing the same power 20 times with a new coat of paint will only lead to the same issue. Variety is key here. And we definitely have a wide variety of killer powers.
As for the killers you claimed to be good, 3 of them aren't. Blight is massively overtuned. Demogorgon has pretty weak addons and his base kit is also not that strong. His pick rate before the removal of the Stranger Things chapter wasn't all that amazing either and you will find people, who complain about him as well. For Billy I can only say, that there is a reason you don't see him that often. I main this guy, but playing him is one of the most excruciating experiences imaginable when you constantly have to be on the top of your game, need to play around maps more than survivors, have pretty much the easiest counterplay in the game, have terrible addons overall and become a little weaker with every new map and map rework. And I haven't even gotten into all of these collision issues.
Except Skull Merchant, all of the killers you mentioned above have some special and even fun counterplay, if you know it and are able to apply it effectively. I'd argue that Xenomorph is pretty fun to play against. Because you actively need to think instead of turning your brain on auto pilot. Personally, I'm not a super big fan of Knight and Artist either but I can see how their unique counterplay brings some variety into the otherwise pretty stale survivor role.
I know that fun is subjective. According to votes, my suggestions are spot on. Blight for example has been voted many times as one of the most fun killers. So was Billy, so was Demo. Just because they might be to powerful does not mean that their design can not be fun. Also Oni is a great example for that.
Also i would gladly hear from those great counterplays against a killer like Knight. Taking the flag is only counterplay if you are in a good team, breaking away is very relative to the map and your gen spawn and the pallet drop thingy is not relyable since it is a bug and not a feature.
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How about instead of surrender button a fix to tunneling?
DS 5 seconds. Cu later tunnel meta.
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@Xyvielia said:
BHVR certainly has the capacity to create something entirely new, especially in regards to Killer design and power, they simply just haven’t done so in a long time.
With the exception of The Twins and Knight, everything they’ve produced since Chapter 11 has been a monster mash-up of other Killer’s powers. In March of 2024 that will be 5 full years of basically reoccurring Killer combo powers.
Hollywood does the same lazy approach by remaking or reworking old movies with “new” or “updated” spins on them (Chase music, aesthetics, lore etc.).
DBD players have pretty much been paying money every 3 months (w a couple exceptions mentioned) to watch the same movies for half a decade.
That is true by any means, but what i dont understand is why they create obvious crap? Why not go for the interesting killer over and over again? Hillbilly, Demogorgon, Wesker, Blight are most often considered to be extremly fun. For surviors AND killer.
They probably have brainstorming sessions and meetings where someone must have come to the idea of a killer who can set drones by a single mousebutton which injures survivors, make the killer faster and the survivor slower, with absolutly 0 counterplay during chase. And to make it more fun, let the survivors mend aswell. Because you know, everybody in this game hates a good chase, but it is much more fun to mend.
And someone said YES, thats a GREAT idea! Lets do this. And they did it, multible times.
😮
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593554#Comment_3593554
At no point did I say that killer should always win or survivor always lose. Absolute arguments are exactly as you put it, just plain silly.
In a survival horror setting what makes the experience exciting and hence fun is the tension. Tension only exists if there is a genuine threat from the antagonist. There must be the ever present threat of being caught otherwise what's the point?
Your question was how is 60% kill rate balanced? the answer is, it’s not entirely balanced but that’s ok in this setting.
As to have the kind of tension that should exist in a survival horror there needs to be a slight killer bias in outcome otherwise you aren’t fighting against the odds as survivor. This bias is then attenuated by survivor teamwork hence why its 4v1.
Its asymmetric and that asymmetry will create some fluctuating bias in outcome and as I said a slight killer bias in kill rate is not out of place given the games setting. In fact you'd expect it if things were balancing well, because 1v1 survivors should be at a disadvantage vs the killer mechanically.
A better question would be… How much killer bias is too much that it skews the game beyond what is reasonable? I don’t think a 10% swing in outcome is so large that it undermines the survivor player experience.
That intrinsic threat enhances the survivor experience before you even begin to assess perceptions of player skill.
To put this simple: 10% is a lot. It does not sound much, but in any semi-competetive game, 10% more winrate is considered broken.
So your argument, that the killer should have this advantage might make sense because it is a horror game, killer should be a threat) ect ect but it does not. The game is so extremly unballanced between solo and SWF, that it is pointless to even aim for anything higher then a 50/50, and this can only be realisticly achieved by giving solo players a tremendous buff.
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Why would it be money? They could have actully gone for good killer design, instead they keep releasing those "drop something somewhere, get a free hit" crap.
And why would they ban me for saying that? It is my opinion that those killers are terrible designed. Terrible is the only word that comes even close to how bad they very very unfortunatly are.
Or is anybody here who truely thinks "Yea cool! Finally a game against a Skull Merchant/Knight/Artist ect"?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Sounds like a good Buff. But this does not really fix Freddys core problem, which is that he is very boring to play and play against. Strengthwise Freddy is not really in a bad spot, especially given how simple he is to play. But he is just sooo boring and uninspired. I think he should be reworked once again to have a more exciting Kit.
I dont know, he is an M1 killer, which is fine for me. Not every killer needs to have mechanically difficult powers. Doctor and Clown for example are not that much different, but different enogh that he is unquie enough to exist.
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When i played MFT, i won signficantly more often then without. So i gave up on that perk because i thought it was unballanced.
But here is the catch: Since MFT was overpowered and now it is (probably) not anymore, killrates will rise. This will (hopefully) lead to some survivor buffs.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592561#Comment_3592561
The killer isn't automatically winning and thinking so is grossly overblowing the 10% skew. As I always say if you need an extreme example to make your point then you have a weak point.
So what is the survivor fantasy? From a thematic perspective its about trying to survivor a nightmare realm and escape from the killer against all the odds.
So the fantasy role for survivor is to survive against the odds. Which is both a fun challenge and thematically appropriate.
If you are logging in to a game as survivor expecting to be some hero that's gonna go toe to toe with the killer and come out on top then you have kinda missed the point of DBD and horror survival in general.
What I see most games has nothing to do with cheese mechanics, just people who think they are better than they are blaming cheese mechanics for their losses.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593253#Comment_3593253
A case in point is the series of back and forth that lead to this post quoted.
I'd say from this kind of mindset that it's a good probability that you just aren't very good at the game or at least not as good as you want to be (That's ok by the way many players aren't).
Where things differ is my failures are my fault, while your failures are the game's fault, see the difference there. These two different lines of thinking often separate those who improve and do well from those who flatline and stagnate.
Talking about the survivor "fantasy": Playing for example Laurie Strode, who always (Resurrection is not cannon! 😅) survives is the same argument as the killer fantasy. The survivor should never be caught. Those arguments are just silly, its a video game and should be fun for everyone. The better player wins. Designing the game so one side is much more powerful does not work in the long run. I can not imagine having fun loosing all the time, no matter if killer of survivor. It gets even more frustrating when one side is clearly less skilled and still has the upper hand because playing "the power role". No thanks to that.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Now you're just making things up. Where did I ever say there are no losses in the game?
Maybe you're just trolling or you honestly don't understand the basic concept of what a draw is.
A draw is when neither side wins. Survivors literally can never draw, as survivors do NOT utilize the entire team as a win or loss condition. Each survivor gets their own win or loss condition. This means that an actual draw is not possible in DBD, as both sides cannot simultaneously not have any winners. However, doing MMR like that would be hell, so for the purposes of MMR, they consider 2 kills as a draw for the killer. We are all aware of how flawed their MMR system is, but they are doing their best.
And yes, 62.5% kill rate (2.5 kills per match on average) would be considered balance (at least on paper). This means that every 2 matches, a killer would get one win with a 3k+. For survivors, this means every match would have an expected result of one survivor winning (killer got a 3k), and every other match, the survivors would get 2 wins (and of course the killer doesn't win). If the killer got a 50% kill rate (2k) He would not win in every match. If he had a 75% kill rate (3k), he would win every match. If you take that difference between 50 and 75. You get 25. Find the halfway mark, and you get 12.5%. So for a killer to settle in the middle where he doesn't always lose and doesn't always win, you give him a +12.5% kill rate. Now half his matches he wins, and half of his matches he does not.
Since drawing is actually not possible since drawing requires BOTH sides to not have any winners, then the reality is that the killer did not win, he lost.
So what we know from this is that the killer is designed to win half of his matches, but since he is below the halfway mark with only 60%, every so often, he's also designed to have an extra loss from time to time.
Why is this so messy? Ask the devs. They designed it this way. We all know someone escaping shouldn't necessarily mean they should go up in mmr. What if they just hid all match then ran out the gate at the end leaving teammates to die? Their mmr system is flawed. It instead should be based on the entire team for survivors. However, they do not agree with this idea.
One last time and the I give up after this. Believe in what you want to believe and lets agree with disagree. Please reread my post.
The killer can have wins, draws and losses. If a survivor can have a draw or not (they can, hatch by the way) is completly irrelevant for the winrate of the killer.
Here is as i already mentioned in the orginal post, lets look at the Clown. He has 50% killrate
43% winrate (3 or 4K)
15% drawrate (2K)
41% lossrate (1K or 0K)
So i said, and once and for all to make myself 100% clear. Your 62,5% killrate would ONLY MAKE SENSE FOR A 50% WINRATE WHEN THE KILLER COULD NOT HAVE A DRAW OR YOU, FOR SOME REASON CONSIDERE A 2K ALSO A LOSS FOR THE KILLER, WHICH CLEARLY IS NOT THE CASE. Even in the graphic is say DRAW!
If we have a killer that comes close to the 62,5% KILLRATE (lets look at Skull Merchant) it looks like this:
Skull Merchant (67% killrate)
64% winrate (3 or 4K)
10% drawrate (2K)
25% lossrate (1K or 0K)
I hope this is clear now.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593204#Comment_3593204
That's for MMR matchmaking. You're in the wrong thread for that discussion. That's why they also used the word considered. For the purposes of MMR, they consider those events as such despite that not being the reality. We are talking about actual win rates and why 60% is the standard. We aren't talking about MMR adjustments. Again, you can argue with the devs all day, that's fine. Not sure why you're all up in my case here, if you're trying to change things, direct it to the devs. I personally agree with you that they SHOULD do win loss rates on a loss draw win scale, but they don't. Telling me your opinion that that's wrong constantly isn't doing much. It's them you have to convince, not me lol.
That is the best strawman i have ever read. Declaring a strawman for the purpuse of creating one :D
You think there are no draws in this game. I showed you that there are. You said you need a 62,5% killrate so you get a 50% winrate as killer, which is completly wrong. I said the only way you can have the 62,5% to make sense is that a killer can only have wins or loose, AND NO DRAWS. You argued that there are no draws. I showed you that there are.
Wanna spin in that circle again?
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Okay i did it one game but that was really horrible. Felt sorry for the survivors, and i got my well deserved rage in post game chat.
If by any chance you read this, yes it was me and i appolgise. I explained the situation and what i was trying to do and refered to this post. Again, sorry for that game, wont happen again.
I'm already done with this bullshit 😓
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593172#Comment_3593172
You're incorrect. The devs stated the survivors have an individual win condition. The survivors dont get a draw. You either win or lose at a survivor level. You can win but other 3 lose. You can lose but the other 3 win. Etc...
That means 2 kills means the survivors had two winners and the killer did not win, as he needs 3 kills for a win.
Draws only happens if both sides can draw. You can argue with the designers of the game if you wish, but it doesn't change the fact that the killer either wins or loses. There is no actual draw condition since it's impossible for the survivor team to draw since survivor wins are at an individual basis.
That's not my opinion, that's the devs' opinion. Considering they make the game, I'd argue that is the reality of it. I personally don't agree with their opinion, I think it should be team based (ie 2 kills should be a draw for both sides), but they do not agree with that opinion. They make they rules, so what they say stands.
I made this example of course from the killers perspective.
If you have any doubt on what i posted, feel free to read it for yourself:
The Skill-Based Matchmaking Rating, often abbreviated as "SBMM" or "MMR", is a hidden scoring system used to match Players together for ranked Trials in Dead by Daylight . The system has been in use since 8 September 2021 and replaced the previous matchmaking system, which had matched Players based on their Grades. The Skill-Based Matchmaking Rating uses a hidden score that is influenced by the Player's performance in ranked Trials.There is no way for Players to know their specific score. The SkI quote:
- Killing 0 or 1 Survivor(s) is considered a loss towards MMR.
- Killing 2 Survivors is considered a draw.
- Killing 3 or 4 Survivors is considered a win towards MMR.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592974#Comment_3592974
I can only hope you're joking. Just in case you aren't, the killer drawing means:
1. They did not win
2. Half of the survivor team won (ie survivors had 2 winning players). This means the killer is the only player in the match that their side didn't get a win. If the other side side has winners, and yours did not, you lost, lol.
In the end, there is no real draw conditions in this game since survivors win or lose at an individual basis per BHVR's statement. It comes down to if you win or not as killer or survivor. If the killer only gets 2 people, he did not win the match. That's effectively a loss.
The devs fully explained that, so i was curious how someone can have that idea. Whats the background behind that.
What you mentioned not correct. Let me explain.
2 kills are a draw for the killer. He can have 0, 1, 2, 3, 4. possible outcomes. Whats the middle of 0,1,2,3,4? Its 2. 0,1 kill is a loss, 2 kills is a draw 3,4 kills is a win.
Also from a survior standpoint it is a draw. 4 survivor 2 kills, 2 escapes. A draw.
"Half of the survivor team won" ... yea right and half lost. No way this could be a draw. Sorry i dont want to sound condicending but the way you added "you're joking" on such a simple thing cracked me up a little bit.
Anyway, if you believe 2 kills is a loss for the killer, then it is your personal idea of that.
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I took a break of 2 years, because i felt the exact same. I came back just to experience love and hate for it at the same time. More hate then love unfortunalty.
Love for the great sound and estetics, the cool concept and the overall adrenaline i get from playing it. Hate for the terrible ballance between solo queue and SWF, the "new" really boring and overall terrible designed killer. The new all bad looking and playing maps.
But at least i still have a feeling towards it.
Try the same, take a break. The day may or may not come to give it another try. You will see.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592614#Comment_3592614
It would need to be a 62.5% to be as close to "even" as possible, but I don't even think it should be even. The killer should be a force to be reckoned with. Escaping should be some bragging rights - going face to face with Myers himself and living. I don't think it should be a simple red team vs blue team with a 50% chance for both sides. That, however, is merely my opinion (except the 62.5% part - that's just mathematically accurate).
Do you seriously think that a draw is a loss for killer? What makes you think that way?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592519#Comment_3592519
Wouldn't that killrate be grossly inflated by the number of people who just give up on hook or DC the second they see her?
To the wider topic, I think this is an overexaggeration. It's fine to not like her, but she's clearly much better than she was before.
Her 3-genning has been brought down to the level any killer can achieve, drones have never been OP and certainly aren't now, and I don't even know what you mean by abusing the movement speed bonuses/penalties. That's just how her power works, it's like saying Clown abuses slows and haste.
That would be the case. Are survivors mass DCing / suciding when they come across Skull Merchant? I dont know really. If that is true, she suffers from the "Original Legion Syndrom". A killer that was so dispised that even tho the winrate was not super high, the devs simply had to completly change his power.
No matter if she is just really overpowered or so hated that survivors disconnect when they come across her, a change is absolutly neccessary, dont you think?
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There are many i would love to have.
My top 3
- Twin Peaks (Killer: BOB | Survivor: Agent Dale Cooper)
- Life is Strange (Survivor: Cloe Price | Survivor: Max Caulfield)
- Rammstein (Survivor: Till Lindemann | Survivor: Christian "Flake" Lorenz)
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Dont worry to much. With her insane winrate, she will get nerfed pretty soon. Rightfully so.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590995#Comment_3590995
I appreciate that you clarify that they are fun for survivors, because that much is true. However if the survivor team is sentient there is no way a billy or demo can get 12 hooks, if that happens the team had to severely misplay that match as both of those killers are very easy to loop.
It depends a lot on how coordinated survivors are and how good the billy is of course. I dont play Billy that much, but i do like demo. When i face a very strong survivor team, i am happy to get 6-7 hook stages. But the truth is, there is like one of ten games where i would run into that kaliber of team. I have way more 9-12 hook stage games with Demo then 6-7.
People here always makes it sound (not you spefically, dont get that wrong) that every lobby is full of comp players and it is impossible unless you have a time machine and play Mega blink Nurse. In reality, killer sit on 60% killrate. Where are those kills always coming from if every game is so impossible?
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Welcome to DBD solo queue.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591832#Comment_3591832
A draw is still a loss. They didn't win.
With some here, i cant tell if joking or not.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592017#Comment_3592017
But its 'fun enough', right? You're gonna keep playing, right? I found that eventually... in this game, you have to make your own fun. I do it with my current name. Love when the killer brings that Mori and chases me til I die or the team gets out. Then I'll stay and die lol. Its great fun.
Its absolutly not, most of the time it is aweful.
I tried to bring back in 2 friends (both veterans) the last couple of months and they all left again after a few hours of gaming - with little to no chance ever coming back. The games we had together were all (and i mean ALL) tunneling and ahole killers in general. Absolutly horrible 0/10 experience. One of them, being usually really chill even ragequit and uninstalled a second later.
My old team left the game, nobody wants to play survivor anymore. The current team i play with when i SWF is very chill and dont have any sort of competetive motivation and still even they are close to the edge of leaving this game. They dont care about if they escape or not, just for fun. But the way those killers play and how oppressive they are towards them is completly uninteresting for the,.
Last but not least, no, absolutly not, i wont stay if they wont fix things. I left this game years ago for over 2 years and came back to give it another shot. Things got much worse since then. I am usually very patient and tolerant and i admit that i have a love hate relationship with DBD, but that does not guarantee that i stay much longer.
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I dont hate this idea, maybe i considere it. The problem tho is that i like to have a challange and this would simply ruin this.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591535#Comment_3591535
1.) The video is posted more than a year ago, and at the time he posted it, its 6 months old. So its a 1,5 year old video. Gen speeds were very much different back then.
2.) Hes an ex-comp player, do you really wanna use that as an example for casual players? most casuals are not even near that skill level.
3.) Nurse is the stronget killer in the game, and prob. also the one with the shortest chase time, its the worst example you could bring for that argument.
We are talking about slow moving killers in this regard, even when nurse technically have a slow walking speed her blink makes her overall one of the fastest.
How about that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4leZmbxjS81) The Video is recent and the streak is still going.
2) He is a casual gamer.
3) Pig is arguable one of the weakest killer.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590938#Comment_3590938
Its not a great example because gen just being done in 10s as you put it is an example that ignores all of the interactions that take place for someone to be tunneled out early. So its not a great comparison and when you have to go for extreme examples to make your point then you have a weak point. So lets leave that one on the floor where it belongs.
My point is the experience isn't awful.
The high stakes nature of it makes it exciting.
People just need to get over the boo hoo factor of being eliminated early.
No, i made only an exreme example to make it more clear. And yet there is no explantion. Anyway, lets leave it to that.
The experience is not awful? Tons of people complain about that nonstop that the experience is so awful. Of course its aweful, maybe not from your pov but the majority would disagree with that.
It is never a strong argument when it starts with "people need to get over...". Because they dont. Nothing is set in stone, changes can be made. And with the amount of tunneling right now, there is a very high chance they will make changes.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591832#Comment_3591832
You can have numbers thrown at you all night and it wont make sense man. This game isn't supposed to be balanced per say: it's a horror game. It was initially a party game not to be taken seriously. But with it popularity, people like yourself demand answers.
There are none. Just play the game and enjoy it, or dont. Achieving balance isn't what this is all about as a game like this can't be balanced. Perks and loadouts affect this, killer powers affect this, and the player affects this. Can't balance around all that. You just can't.
I fully agree with you. The game might be more "ballanced" as it used to be years ago, but it is much less fun.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591731#Comment_3591731
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. A 4k results in a higher kill rate compared to a 3k but not a higher win rate. Killers are more likely to 4k than 3k, which is why a kill rate higher than 50% is needed to achieve 50% win rate. The thread I made explains this very well https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/348478/bhvr-can-you-post-and-balance-around-win-draw-and-loss-rates-instead-of-kill-rates/p1
Alright.
Lets just look at the stats we have. According to you, if i understand you right, we need to achieve a ballanced winrate more %kills for that goal.
Lets look at some of those stats.
Skull Merchant:
Killrate 68%
Wins/Loss (3+4K)/(0-1K) 65% - 25%
Clown:
Killrate: 51%
Win/Loss 43% - 41%
Spirt:
Killrate: 56%
Win/Loss 50% - 37%
Doctor:
Killrate: 55%
Win/Loss 47% - 40%
The only killer which achieves a ballanced 50/50 win-loss rate is the clown, with 51% killrate. All the other killers with higher winrate are unballanced.
The only way your arguement might make any sense is when we count a draw (2K) also as a loss for the killer.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Regardless the new MMR change with drop kill rates pretty darn quick if you ask me.
I am not so sure about that. The MMR get a change for both sides. I think it will stay the way it is, more or less. Better survivors will face better killer. If that has a super big influence on MMR? We will have to wait and see.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591721#Comment_3591721
How about you look at the photo you posted? The 4k rate is roughly double of the 3k rate.
The 3K and 4K (win) is 50% on PH. Not relevant if the 4K rate is higher then the 3K. Its a win.
Or that Clown is perfectly ballanced with a 50% killrate regardless on win/draw/loose?
The devs basically already confirmed that this is irrelevant.
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@Evan_ said:
There is no issue with tunneling.
This is a game about killers, and many killers chose to be efficient.
Said the killer.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
Killers tend to 4k when they win, so a 60% kill rate is more like a 50% win rate. I made a thread about this long ago. https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/348478/bhvr-can-you-post-and-balance-around-win-draw-and-loss-rates-instead-of-kill-rates/p1
That is untrue, by fact and proof. Why not just look at the data and see for yourself?
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@Beatricks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591335#Comment_3591335
"The kill rate is an average, not a guarantee. You might kill 4 survivors one match and 0 the next, but that'll still average out to 50%"
And that is the root of all the problems balancing wise.
If 1000 matches are played and 500 are 4k while 500 are 4 escapes, BHVR will pat themselves on the back for a matchmaking well done, despite the fact that there wasn't a single even remotely balanced game in there after all.
I hope i understand you corretly here. In the graphic in the original post you can see that the "its either 4k or its 0k" argument gets countered by numbers. About 60% of the time its either 1,2 or 3K. That this is not perfectly ballanced is true, but far from the claim by many players that it is either the one extreme or the other. At least not on average.
EDIT: Actually it is somewhat perfectly ballanced.😅
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591434#Comment_3591434
They say it's a legitimate way to play. I'm not digging through years of info on the subject to pull it out for you
They have said that about many things, including facemaping. Yet, they are working on solutions to improve those issues.
Talking about a solution: Base kit DS (conspicious actions disable DS) or just a regular DS buff to 5 second stun so the perk becomes very powerful again. Tunneling should get punished, and thats a great way to.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
They've already said they won't do anything
Tunneling is a symptom of a larger issue. New killers run into swfs and get stomped hard. Just a little bit of communication and coordination will turn the tables ez
Getting stomped the new killers start Tunneling, and start to win with proxy gen pressure (everyone is going for the save and not sitting on gens) so they keep doing it
To fight tunneling, just sit on gens
I doubt a little bit they said anything like that. If you have a source on that statement, please post the link.
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@UnknownKiller said:
Sacrifice perks work around giving to your team a buff while debuffing you
Sacrifice:One More chance-After unhooking 2 times same survivor.That survivor becomes "marked" press E button to donate a hook state but you get downed instantly and lose a hook state.That survivor will have an extra hook for 30/45/60 secs.You must be the obsession to use this perk you become unbroken for 60 secs. The hook status donation wont be refunded.
( if too OP it could be with heal states instead that surv get healed instantly)
I love this perk idea, but i think it is to powerful. There have to be a big downside to it.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591358#Comment_3591358
As is should be. Why wouldn’t it be?
For the sake of a ballanced experience? So 5 people have fun and not only just 1? There are many reasons why this should not be the case and i can only think of one weak reason it actually should.
Or was this bait? If it was, you have to tell me! I gonna cry if i dont know.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591341#Comment_3591341
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591343#Comment_3591343
I judge by what I see myself. I played 5 solo games yesterday and in 2 of them people gave up on the first hook. Then I went to do some work with streams in background and people also gave up almost every second game. I see it every day. Sometimes it's not so often, sometimes it's impossible to watch/play because of people like this. I remember the day in september, when i watched the stream and out of 12 played games, people gave up something like in 8-9.
People on this forum are constantly asking to do something about hook suicide as well, so if you think it doesn't really affect statistics, maybe we are playing different games.
I dont know, from my experience it is totally different. And if it would effect the game that much, we can still debate on what i mentioned in the original post. They will even it out.
Anyway, we actually have an answer to that topic, and the answer has nothing to do with that.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591336#Comment_3591336
This is the part that there is no simple answer to. People will disagree about what the ideal kill rate should be until the end of time. Some feel like 50/50 is the most fair, others will feel like killers in a horror game like this should be a little bit stronger to maintain that power fantasy. Ultimately, it comes down to preference.
So the preference of BHVR is that killer is supposed to be stronger then survivor?!
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@fussy said:
Ask players who give up on first hook every third game giving free 4k to killer. I wonder how it is not 70% with this playerbase mentality.
I recently watched a streamer the whole evening because i am ill right now and therefore have nothing better to do, and i can not remember a single person suiced. He gave a couple of times hatch tho and let them go for the gate.
The chance of people suiciding more then killer DC, give hatch or any thing i pointed out above is close to 0. So no, that is for sure not the reason.
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@Peanits said:
I can clarify a bit. I'm not sure where the 60% kill rate = 50% win rate bit comes from, but I don't recall it being said by us. We don't tend to talk about "win rates" because a win is still somewhat subjective. Some people count a pip as a win, others if they get 3 kills, some even consider only 4 kills as a win. If we're talking about solely kills, kill rate and win rate are equal. The kill rate is an average, not a guarantee. You might kill 4 survivors one match and 0 the next, but that'll still average out to 50%. (When you average out thousands of matches, that killer's actual kill rate becomes much more accurate.)
Certain things may influence it, like you've mentioned, but it's a bit too nebulous to speculate on. There are also things that survivors may do to inflate that kill rate, like giving the killer a pity kill after a rough match, giving up when the hatch is closed, and so on. They would cancel each other out to some degree, but exactly how much influence each has is impossible to identify. These would have to be incredibly common to have a significant influence on the total kill rates.
Thank you for your reply. We have at least the hot topic we already had often (50% killrate is not 50% winrate) out of the way.
The question, why 60% killrate is ballanced still stays.
Why is 60% killrate supposed to be ballanced then?
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590995#Comment_3590995
Billy and Demo cant do that without heavy slowdown, a fitting map for their power and in case of Billy, near perfect execution of his power. I main Demo and a friend of mine mains Billy. Going for many hooks with both of them is not realistic against very decent survivors that make very little mistakes.
Blight is another level. His power is way stronger than most killers, being anti loop and mobility in one package. That this is too strong is debatable. In my opinion it is for the overall health of the game too strong but thats not the argument here.
I say, that going for many hooks is definitely rewarding and possible. But, it is not very realistic to win with many killers against very decent survivors with this mindset. Why not? Overall killer strenght, maps being unbalanced, perks making chases take longer, perks making gens go faster, Survivors playing tiles really good and not falling for mindgames or the simple pre drop shift w.
I main pig (as many know). Therefore i have to commit to chases early on. This can make me lose 2-3 gens. I can still go for many hooks after that, but only because i have the strongest form of slowdown in my kit the game has to offer. A killer like Clown, Wraith or even the mentioned Demo or Billy dont have that.
If we want killers to go for as many hooks as possible, killers like Blight and Nurse can and should not be the standart, but should be toned down. Then, a reward mechnic for multible hook stages could be implemented so that killers that take longer naturally can go for many chases and still have a chance to win a game.
This is my opinion on the matter.
Last but not least, i have to ask. Why do you think is the Hillbilly considered a fun killer to go against by survivors but NOT considered a fun killer to play as?
I respect your opinion even tho i dont agree. Especially the map part. The number of unsafe palets on each map times the number of actual palets... there is no way this will become any lower. The majority of maps come with 9-15 palets on average with at least 30% beeing completly unsafe.
No offense but i think you are exaggerating a little bit. At least you make it sound like it is super hard to win with Billy or Demogorgon. Lets be totally honest with yourself. If you are a strong Demo, and i am sure you are, how often do you really loose a game? Couldnt it be that most times you win and only once in a while you run into those games that feel like unwinable? I have to assume this is the case. When even i can win 20 games in a row with the Trapper not tunneling and camping, for sure a strong Demogorgon has no problem with that either.
Billy is a fun killer to play against. I never said he is not a fun killer to play as. I guess every killer can be fun to play, especially a mechanically complex one as Billy.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591039#Comment_3591039
The ideal for the killer role is to eliminate all four survivors before the trial ends (exit gates open). How that happens—equal distribution of hooks, mori, tunneling, w/e—is inconsequential. Killers aren’t punished (nor should they be) for how they kill survivors. They’re only punished, if you will, for not killing survivors.
That is true. Killers are not punished for tunneling, which is the problem.
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@appleas said:
The closer both sides are in terms of skill level, the more important eliminating one person from the game as soon as possible becomes as mistakes become more impactful on both sides.
If people support the idea that people of similar skill level should be matched with each other, then they also need to accept that focusing hook states on 1-2 people is much better than spreading them out among 4 people.
Just no. Why should this be acceptabel? Because it is meta right now? Because it is the way it is? There is 0 reason not to change that. Or is it your opinion that the most fun you can have on both sides is to play that way?
The ideal for this game is that killer is going for as many hooks as poosible without camping and tunneling. Would you disagree? If so, what is then more fun then many chases?