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@ChaosWam said:
As a Sadako main:
- Reduce tape-slap to 1 condemn stack
- When you lose a tape, you have 10-15 seconds of condemn immunity so she can't start building more onto you immediately.
- Full condemned is an instant down, and ONLY a Mori on death hook
Feel like all of these at the same time are a bit too much, last one especially is overkill
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@chibizodo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495382#Comment_3495382
Where are the TVs tho we can’t see them so idk where the TVs spawn, by the time I find one she’s already used it;
TVs spawn next to generators
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@kit_mason said:
Her only viable build prior to this buff was to slug and play for condemned, using Ring Drawing and Iri Tape.
Her update has been live for only a day and a bit, so people's strategies are still developing on both sides. At least wait to see if survivors take on board means to counterplay her new methods of gaining Condemned and if killer players find an engaging yet rewarding strategy to undertake on her before asking for reverts to a version of Sadako that requires an Iridescent addon to be functional.
I agree that it's still too early and time is needed to see what counterplay strategies will develop, but the idea that old Sadako could only slug with Ring Drawing and Iri tape is just wrong. I warmed up on the new rework, but the old kit allowed her to play in many different ways -and yes, chase builds existed and they were pretty fun- and the new Sadako can't really do that anymore, what with the nerfs to her chase and to add-ons that helped with that, like Reiko's Watch.
Sadako is definitely stronger now, but she has a lower skill floor and there's only one proper viable strategy to her now, whereas the old kit was more versatile
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I feel the same way, on paper the changes from PTB to the new update felt like a minor tweak but somehow made the character feel entirely different from how it was on the PTB version of Sadako, which on the contrary felt really bad to play. This new version still sacrifices her chase power and all her other playstyles, which is pretty bad, but I do think it at least enables an effective way to play Condemned that was envisioned on the PTB but that we couldn't see because of the stats on there. I was also really frustrated about the changes going through and I feel the need to apologize for just being very brusque after the news.
She'll definitely need some tweaks to make her more bearable for SoloQ, but I wouldn't give too harsh of a judgement for now as it's basically a completely new killer and both sides still need to understand the best strategies to adopt - it's just that in this case it was much more immediate to understand the Sadako strategies than the survivor ones. Only time will tell
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I feel the same way! I think Trickster and Sadako need a lil tweak (Trickster should be a bit more on the center and Sadako maybe a bit zoomed out) but I like the new portraits
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@nars said:
complete waste of a ptb. Why have it if you arent even gonna use the feedback
Exactly. I think it's sad how lately BHVR has been pushing so hard for wanting to show transparency and more communication with the playerbase (and that's great) then they go ahead, ignore all the feedback of a PTB, and do unexplainable stuff such as nerfing a random yellow add-on for a low tier killer while ignoring Blight's Alchemy Ring, that the community has asked a nerf for for ages.
I understand devs can't 100% listen to the community because of balance reasons, but even having a simple post made by one of the community managers here to explain the reasoning behind this choice would help. I'd like to know why Reiko's was still nerfed despite the overwhelming and unanimous feedback, why the changes went through despite everyone on the PTB forums, on the subreddit, on YouTube and pretty much every DBD online community asked for the live version to come back. I understand that all this community feedback apparently won't change the fact we're getting a completely different version of the character that changes her upside down and guts her fun factor (despite even a dev team member commenting on how full reworks for characters that have a dedicated playerbase are not a good idea) but at least knowing why they decided to go through would help a bit. I'd like to know why we can't have live Sadako and Reiko's back with just a change to the teleport cooldowns and Ring Drawing/Iri Tape nerf.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491546#Comment_3491546
What? This rework is nothing like the scale of Freddy's was. Freddy essentially got a new power entirely.
I compared her to the Freddy change because the power feels more boring (demanifest mindgames discouraged, mindless global Condemn teleports) and inaccurate and different to the movie version (having Cursed Tapes now shields you from teleport condemn while they're the one thing that curses you in the movie, and also now she can condemn people who don't interact with her and her tapes at all)
I never mentioned the scale of the rework for this comparison, just the fun and the accuracy to the source material
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The changes going through when everybody reported negatively on them in the PTB forums is genuinely puzzling. I do understand it would feel bad to suddenly scrap all the effort that went into the rework, but something as hated and honestly unhealthy for the game shouldn't get in. I think these changes are going to Freddy-fy her - make her a weak, boring character, completely inaccurate to the movie version, that stomps new lobbies and gets stomped by everybody else. A really sad update
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491490#Comment_3491490
How is slugging stronger? You don't get anything for doing it, at least in regards to her power. Ring Drawing doesn't apply Condemned, the tape is removed on hit so you aren't getting any more Condemned from them when they're picked back up... you just get normal slugging value here. Am I missing something?
Sadako's basically never had a real chase power, and that isn't a requirement either. I'm on board with criticising the addon changes there, I think those were unnecessary, but it's not as though mindgaming in chase with the passive flickering was ever her main draw or intent, it's more of a nice bonus. She's just not a chase focused killer and never has been, that's fine.
I've never played against Ring Drawing Sadako, that is a completely baseless assumption lol. I play as Sadako far more frequently than I play against her regardless of build.
Picking somebody up and carrying them to a hook (and eventually having to deal with sabo, Break Out or protection hit survivors in certain cases) will always take more time than simply leaving them on the ground. When you can remove people out of the game without ever hooking them, the time difference in those two is important and substantial, especially when your mobility power can be removed much more easily (bringing tapes to whichever TV you want) and your ability to down people (ending chases) is much worse. You struggle more with everything, you now need all the help you can. That extra time is going to feel like a necessity against good teams, that's what I meant.
I agree that Sadako doesn't need a real chase power, but sometimes you do need to chase people, and being able to mindgame with demanifest was pretty much the one thing she had in that regard. There's really no point in nerfing that, there's no point to nerfing her basekit chase by removing Bloodlust either (can't be compared to Wraith, who gets a speed boost after uncloaking, whereas Sadako just slows down); she had weak chase capabilities, and that's fine, but nerfing these things were absolutely unnecessary. The pallet stun change won't really change anything, it's an uneventful change on its own and considering that Sadako players are now discouraged from chasing in demanifested, it's even more useless.
Sorry, I didn't mean it as a sarcastic assumption - I main Sadako, I have played against Slugdakos and I genuinely think they're very annoying when they fully commit to slugging intensely. It was a problem that needed to be fixed and I did mean it seriously when I said it was really frustrating to play against.
Although, you said you main her, but then said she had no skill expression because slugging takes no skill - if you play her with many different playstyles, why reducing the character to only that one playstyle?
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@jesterkind said:
I've seen a lot of people say that new Sadako has less skill expression, and I don't understand that even slightly. If anything, if there's a problem with Sadako after these changes, it's that she requires too much skill expression.
You have to showcase a ton of map awareness to utilise Sadako properly. You need to know exactly where the survivors are, when they've picked up a tape, which direction they're running to insert that tape, and you need to position yourself to actually take advantage of those things. The changes that make tape interruptions matter boost her skill expression massively.
Genuinely, what skill expression did Sadako players even lose? I don't consider slug-for-Condemned to be particularly skill expressive, and nor is teleporting aimlessly within ten seconds of emerging, so... what's lost here?
The changes aren't perfect but they're definitely an improvement, and to compare them to Old Freddy is especially off the mark. That killer fundamentally changed, Sadako hasn't.
It feels weird you criticize teleporting mindlessly (something that would only make you waste time playing pre-PTB Sadako, as you obviously needed to go to the TVs that had survivors nearby and you had to take into account the ridiculous 100 sec cooldowns) while applauding the global Condemn change, which actually REWARDS you for spamming teleports mindlessly. This new update killed her chase power by nerfing Reiko's for no reason and removing Bloodlust from Demanifested, which demotivates her players to try and mindgame with it, and the specific changes announced today make the slugged playstyle even stronger. What's the point in hooking anymore? For old Sadako hooking next to a TV meant adding condemned stacks to two different survivors, PTB Sadako at least had the "hooking gives condemned to others" which promoted tunnelling, but changing that without going back to her old mechanics just switches it from promoting tunneling to promoting slugging.
You now have a killer with no chase power and her teleport/Condemn power can still be completely turned off too easily. You will struggle much more than every other character with getting downs, and the mechanics (aside from making her feel mindless and completely unlike the movie version) reward you for letting people on the ground.
I'm sorry you had to play against a slugging Ring Drawing Sadako, it's a really annoying playstyle, but not everybody played her like this and this update butchers the killer entirely for everyone, and consider that to fix that one problem the Ring Drawing nerf was all that was needed. This change will only make her kill rates skyrocket, make Slugdako even more prevalent, and the (few) Sadakos you'll see from now on will either be much more annoying to play against or downright unable to do anything at all, depending on your team.
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It's so disappointing. The feedback across the board was that the ptb rework was unnecessary, as the old Sadako kit only needed a few tweaks to get rid of the one problematic playstyle. They managed to lobotomize the character's skill expression, make her power completely inaccurate and too far away from the movie version of the character, and didn't even address the slugging problem as this update actually encourages it. Trust that the killrate will only get higher and the amount of slugging Sadakos will increase.
This is incredibly disappointing to see and the Legion quote only adds salt to the wound.
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I would love it if they gave out little rewards for every ten Prestige levels - something simple like many different custom portrait backgrounds (or maybe even slightly different portraits or bloody portraits, but that's arguably a lot more work). The red portrait backgrounds were really cool and I'd love to see something like that brought back.
I'm really curious to see what those player cards they teased are gonna be like. I feel like they have a lot of potential and they could add player card decorations and details as rewards for the various Prestige levels. Those who really love the characters they main would probably love to have a profile with a little icon of their character and maybe the title "P100 (character name)".
Although Laurie/Myers/Quentin/Freddy mains might end up with nothing if the license holders aren't ok with it
@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467519#Comment_3467519
Good for business, but arguably less good for players. There are downsides to this that you've not realized.
One of them is that it's such a huge time investment that most players aren't going to get it anyway which means that ultimately the manpower and man hours spent crafting something for P100 isn't necessarily worth it when it could be spent making something much more accessible to your playerbase. Another knock on downside is the psychological effects things like this have on a subset of players who have compulsion issues as really far reaching rewards can often prey on their psychology in a way that drives them to play far more than is healthy for them. DBD has always been fairly good about not making things so distantly obtainable that it really starts to mess with those who have issues like that.
The game has a battlepass with plenty of limited time exclusives, there is steady drip feed of things for direct purchase with auric cells and iri shards, plenty of free stuff via Prime Gaming and events. The game is good as it is, no need to slap something interesting at P100 only for like 3% of players to get it. I don't even know why made it scale up that high anyway because it isn't like once you hit P100 you no longer get bloodwebs. Should have just stopped at 9.
I see where you're coming from, but if a user had the completionist impulse to play in unhealthy doses in order to get the P100 reward no matter what, they would most likely be already doing it by trying to unlock every single character and bringing them to P9 to get the bloody outfits and charms (and bringing every survivor to P9, for example, arguably takes much more time than bringing just one to P100), or by grinding shards to get every outfit for their main.
And imo time-limited cosmetics, which are already in the game, are also a much more dangerous practice for players who have this mindset compared to a P100 reward, since FOMO can bring them to either spend ridiculous amounts of money or play too much in a short time-span, compared to something that is yes at a far reach, but ultimately unlockable at all times, for free, and even by playing in shorter sessions over a long time.
I see the idea of a P100 reward as something akin to PlayStation Platinum trophies, but for your favorite character rather than an entire game
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@jesterkind said:
They definitely, absolutely, 100% should not revert him back to the way he was before. If it was bad to fundamentally change a killer once, it would be bad to do it a second time, not even mentioning that he was changed for a reason.
What they should do in my opinion is exactly what you suggest, is give him more fake things to make the dream world harder to predict. However, I'd suggest making them part of his addons as part of a huge overhaul, for a few reasons.
- His addons are currently awful and an overhaul is required anyway,
- It provides more variety to a killer that currently lacks much interesting punch to his kit in general,
- Making them addon-based would make it much harder for survivors to predict exactly what is going to be fake in any specific match, which adds a little bit of spice to a trial as you figure out which addons Freddy brought.
On top of that, make pallets and snares both basekit at once, and let him swap between them like Clown's bottles.
I think the one cool thing that could come back from the old Freddy design is the Nancy face visual effect he had when pulling people into the dream world. Not sure in what context it could be used now, I just think it was a nice little detail that referenced the movie in a smart way.
@[Deleted User] said:
His power should be super creative and visually transform the trial like the dream world should be super spooky
I'd love to see something like this!
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@Gandor said:
Remove map offerings, but at the same time remove killer's visibility of the lobby.
No more seeing who you will go against (but only for killer, because survivors can't decide if they want to go against that wallhacking wraith), no more perks according to survivor items (lightborn if you happen to be in lobby that wants to try multiple flashlights), no more lobby shopping (so matchmaking improves drastically) and both sides loosing their advantage (4 survivor maps against 1 of the killer's) now cancels out.
But don't do cherry-picking. Both at the same time or none at all.
imo I think both should stay (they should hide the survivors' prestige, though). The problem with map offerings is that some maps are horribly skewed in favour of one side, and the solution here is simply addressing those problems by balancing those maps better instead of removing offerings altogether. On their own map offerings are fine and sometimes you just wanna see a specific realm you like, you know. I send myself to Haddonfield as Myers more often than not even if I don't do good on it with him - I just wanna roleplay. Or if I get a full RE lobby I'll send myself to RPD just to keep it accurate. Also, removing map offerings completely kills Scratched Mirror Myers.
Lobby-dodging happens because of Prestiges, not items. Perks like Franklin's and Lightborn would never be picked up if there wasn't a visible lobby (and sometimes those perks making it in can be beneficial for survivors. If they realize there's Lightborn involved early on, then the killer has just wasted a perk slot; Franklin's could also be totally wasted if the items all end up being brown crap / the survivors drop them beforehand strategically). No reason to hide the lobby when you could just hide prestiges and solve the lobby-dodging and "tunneling the P100" problems.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3461037#Comment_3461037
Tbh they should have given the wake up part to the perk with the same name ages ago.
Absolutely, it just makes sense that Quentin's "Wake Up" perk wakes you up from his killer's power instead of, you know, a Meg perk... (i understand it's because in the movie it's adrenaline that helps them waking up, and it's a cool easter egg, but i feel like they could either remove it or transfer it to Wake Up for better gameplay balacing reasons)
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Adrenaline is perfectly fine imo. The only thing I'd change about it is the fact that it currently wakes up survivors affected by Freddy's Dream State. I understand the lore accurate part of it, but perks and items affecting only a specific killer are not that fair and most of those interactions have been removed recently (ex. Wraith flashlight burns). Plus it's not like Freddy is a strong killer that needs this weakening interaction lol, especially since at that point of the game he lost his teleport.
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I think all of these changes are great and really well thought-out, but I'm not sure how I feel about Condemned becoming an Ebony Mori as it would change the character's powers a bit too much. I understand that change is needed when taking into account every other change you proposed, but I think at that point I'd prefer minor changes to everything else to simply make Condemned kills more viable without the usual Iri Tape+Ring Drawing combo. The current problem with Condemned is that most of the times it requires a playstyle that is unfun for the other side in order to be applied (slugging), not that it can kill on its own. In that regard I llike OnryosTapeRentals's proposed changes posted on General Discussion
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
The Issues
As you can probably guess from my username, I main Onryō and have done pretty much since she released back in March 2022. I switched from playing mostly Nurse for around 5 years to Onryō due to being an avid Ring fan, and wanting a little more challenge out of playing killer. To say it was a dramatic shift would be an understatement! We've now had over a year to play with her and let her settle into the game, and I feel that after 1000+ hours of playtime with her, on both PC and console, I have some feedback I'd like to share, so hopefully she can get the attention she needs (and deserves)! I'll start with a little justification of why I feel The Onryō needs reassessing.
A Flawed Power:
The Onryō is what I'd call a Jack of all trades and master of none. She's a killer, whose basekit power provides a number of different utilities, much like The Pig and The Nightmare, but each of these utilities is decidedly mediocre. She has:
- Map traversal from Projection that is hindered by one of the longest cooldowns in the game and inconsistent TV spawns. Comparable killers such as Dredge do not share such a harsh cooldown.
- Stealth from Demanifestation that is nullified by an overbearing lullaby. Lullabys make sense for killers like Huntress who can strike at a distance, so an early warning doesn't hurt them too much. However, The Onryō has no consistent chase ability. To warn survivors that a stealthy killer is near defeats the purpose of their power.
- Built-in slowdown from requiring survivors to transport VHS Tapes. This should provide a significant slowdown but almost never does. TVs have such a long cooldown and Condemnation is so difficult to apply that experienced survivors know they aren't a threat and will leave them alone. Even when survivors do pick up Tapes, their corresponding TVs are often not far away.
- Lethality from Condemnation that virtually never comes into play because of the long Projection cooldown, TVs spawning too far away from objectives, and ease of removing Condemnation stacks for survivors. Even if you manage to fully condemn a survivor, there's no guarantee that you'll actually be able to down and kill them since she has little to no chase power.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/200B2AU57TH3/image.png
A Mixed Bag of Add-ons:
The Onryō has a bizarre mix of add-ons that mostly range from useless to mediocre, with one or two that are incredibly powerful and even problematic. These strong add-ons make her power in the roster difficult to assess. Basekit, she's decidedly a weak killer, but with specific builds she can quickly climb the tierlist and rival stronger killers. It seems nonsensical to say, but this is one of the factors that's actually hindering The Onryō from being better. With these add-ons, she cannot be buffed or else Onryōs running those builds would be far too oppressive. Nerfing these troublesome add-ons, and distributing their strength across some of her weaker add-ons would massively benefit The Onryō in the long run, giving her a much better, more diverse, and more fun kit.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NCA5A3XF0DCI/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5H7AK3TEFHKX/image.png
Unreliable RNG:
The outcome of a match as Onryō relies a great deal on the map you get as well as where her TVs spawn. It's not widely known, but there is a rule in the game that massively hurts her in relation to this:
- If a TV spawns within 16 m of a generator, the next TV will attempt to be spawned further away.
This seems relatively minor, but when you consider the following it seems rather illogical:
- The threshold for a survivor to receive a stack of Condemned after Projection is 16 m. Therefore, TVs that spawn over 16 m away from generators will not be useful in applying your power.
- Projection is acommpanied by a map-wide sound effect that tells the survivors you've teleported, as well as the noisy animation of Sadako crawling out of the TV. Combined with the fact that Projection only grants 1 second of Undetectable, you only have a very narrow window to catch a survivor off-guard. If TVs are spawning far away from generators, you're not going to be able to follow up with a surprise attack.
Maps with a variety of floors/altitudes are also a common pain point for The Onryō's TVs. It's not uncommon for TVs to spawn on the wrong floors, the outskirts of the map, or even behind breakable walls. A number of main structures seemingly never spawn a TV, making them very safe places for survivors to run to. A few of the worst examples of bad TV spawn logic are:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BAGMP1MXIYZL/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KXULAXC5XJ9N/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FXAZPKNK8WIZ/image.png
The Onryō: Unique, Iconic, and... Surprisingly Strong?
It's safe to say that The Onryō is a unique and iconic character. She's often regarded as having some of the best visual and sound design in the whole game, and the media she's based off are some of the most influential books and movies in the horror genre! It's a shame such a legendary character is so uncommon to come across in game. I'm aware that there are a number of dedicated Onryō players out there (myself included), so I wouldn't want to change the overall feel of the killer, just give her some tweaks that drastically improve quality of life for Sadako players.
I should also note that I am aware of the rather surprising statisitcs that were released in September of 2022 (source: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/350586/stats-kill-rate-by-killer-and-mmr-september-2022#:~:text=As%20stated%20in%20our%20most,%25%20to%2053%25%20range).), in which (across all MMRs) Sadako had one of the highest kill rates in the game: 63%. She also had a respectable 61% kill rate at the top 5% of MMR, so why is there a consensus that she's not a top tier killer? While I cannot definitively explain the seemingly anomalous kill rates without much more data and concrete evidence (which is hard to come by in Dead by Daylight), I can give a few possible explanations as to why she seems to do so well, despite her numerous issues:
- Relatively low pick rate (2.58%): The Onryō has a much smaller pick rate than the more popular killers, such as Legion and Mastermind. It's possible that the majority of the people picking her, are those who have learned the ins and outs of her power and dedicated A LOT of time to practicing killer. Therefore, they're able to still perform well despite her shortcomings. The seeming complexity of her kit can be a detterant to newer players, which prevents inexperienced players from picking her up and dragging down the kill rate.
- Complex kit: The Onryō's power is multifaceted which can be intimidating and confusing for less experienced survivors. There's been a number of occasions when I've seen survivors pick up tapes and let themselves get fully Condemned, unaware of how her power works. Inexperienced survivors inflating kill rates, combined with MMR that is notoriously unrepresentative of skill could explain a higher than expected kill rate. These stats were released ~6 months after the DLC dropped, which isn't a huge deal of time in the grand scheme of things. It would be interesting to see more up to date statistics on kill rates!
- Strong builds: A number of specific strategies exist that allow you to (rather artificially) force value from Condemnation. These were popularised by content creators when Sadako Rising came out, leading to a lot of people playing her with her strongest builds and tactics. Combining Iridescent Videotape, Ring Drawing, and slugging can guarantee Condemned kills against unwary survivors. However, the playstyle is rather boring and doesn't allow for a lot of point gain (since you aren't hooking you don't get a lot of Sacrifice points, and survivors can't unhook to get Altruism points). Tape Editing Deck combined with chasing survivors backwards is borderline exploitative, but allows you to rack up Condemned on survivors while chasing them (which is something the game does not usually permit). The prevalence of these overtuned strategies may be contributing to an inflated kill rate.
- Strong perk: One of The Onryō's unique perks is Call of Brine which, until a recent nerf, caused damaged generators to regress at 200% speed. This was a powerful tool that allowed killers to slowdown the game significantly, especially combined with other slowdown perks. Perhaps the introduction of a new slowdown-oriented meta took some adjusting to for survivors.
The Solution
Considering everything we've discussed so far, I think the changes can be grouped into three categories:
- Basekit Adjustments
- Improved TV Spawn Logic
- Add-on Pass
For the sake of clarity and brevity, I'll list my suggested changes in the style of patch notes. Any explanations/justifications will be explained below in italics.
Basekit Adjustments:
- Decreased Post-Projection cooldown by 40 seconds (for a cooldown of 60 seconds).
- Increased Turn-off Cooldown and Tape-play Cooldown by 30 seconds (for a cooldown of 90 seconds).
- While demanifested, the lullaby is map wide.
This change essentially flips the cooldowns between The Onryō disabling a TV via Projection and survivors turning off TVs, with the latter now being the longer and more impactful one. In this way, survivors are more greatly encouraged to retrieve tapes and waste time transporting them, giving Sadako some much needed slowdown. A cooldown of 90 seconds helps to prevent 3-gen situations, which is a strategy that has been on the rise as of late. Changing the lullaby from 24 m to map wide lets survivors know to be on guard but doesn't give The Onryō's exact position away, granting a stealthy approach against unobservant survivors.
- Hitting a survivor within 6 seconds of Projection will give the survivor +1 stack of Condemnation.
This rewards the killer for strategic use of TVs to catch survivors off guard, while not allowing lazy killers to simply passively teleport to TVs in hopes of an easy kill. Currently, good survivors will often finish objectives in your face while you're Projecting - aware that only one stack of Condemnation is not very threatening. Now, they'll have to decide what is more worth it - should I pop the generator if it means I'll take a hit and get another stack or should I run and get a head start in a chase? Without being able to test these changes in a PTB, it's really hard to assess how strong they'd be. I imagine that a shorter Projection cooldown and easier way of applying Condemnation could quickly get out of hand - so perhaps just one of these changes would be adequate.
Improved TV Spawn Logic:
A few rules/alterations to existing rules would help to eliminate the role of RNG and chance in determining the outcome of a match:
- If a TV spawns within 16 m of a generator, the game will attempt to spawn the next TV further away UNLESS that would result in the TV spawning on a different elevation than the generator.
- A main structure containing a generator will ALWAYS spawn a TV.
I do think a distance threshold rule should still exist, to prevent every TV from spawning immediately next to generators - which would prove frustrating and unfun for survivors. However, with these changes I think the rule will be more fair for the killer on maps like Backwater Swamp, without changes TV spawns on maps that are currently fair.
Add-on Pass:
I'm only going to list the add-ons I'd change, the rest I feel are okay to leave as they currently are with the previous changes considered:
- Cabin Sign (common): Reduces the time it takes for a TV to turn on after being turned off by a survivor by -12 seconds.
- Well Stone (uncommon): Looking at powered on TVs will cause survivors to passively gain Condemnation.
- Sea-Soaked Cloths (uncommon): Survivors within 16 metres of a powered TV suffer from the Blindness status effect. This effect lingers for 7 seconds after the TV is turned off.
- Ring Drawing (rare): Condemned survivors who are rescued from a hook spread a stack of Condemnation to their rescuer.
- Rickety Pinwheel (rare): Survivors within 16 metres of a powered TV suffer from the Exhausted status effect. This effect lingers for 7 seconds after the TV is turned off.
- Mother's comb (rare): Increases the distance for a TV to play a Tape by +2 metres. Increases the distance at which Projection applies a stack of Condemned by +2 metres.
- Telephone (very rare): Manifesting within 16 m of a survivor afflicts them with the Hindered status effect for 7 seconds.
- Distorted Photo (very rare): Survivors witnessing The Onryō Manifest scream, revealing their location for 4 seconds.
- Remote Control (ultra rare): The auras of TVs playing a Tape are highlighted to you in yellow.
- Iridescent Videotape (ultra rare): Hitting a survivor within 8 seconds of Projection turns on 4 disabled TVs.
The End!
This was a long post, thank you for your time if you made it this far! Of course this is all just my own opinion, and as a Ring fan I'm obviously going to have a large bias in wanting Sadako to be a stronger killer! I wrote this while tired, so you'll have to forgive me if the formatting is off or some of it doesn't make sense. If you have any thoughts feel free to let me know and see you all in the fog. 😀
EDIT: I think I accidentally posted this in General Discussions, when I meant to put it in Feedback and Suggestions. It would probably be better suited there, apologies.
I'm a Sadako main myself and I love every single suggestion on here. This is an incredibly well-thought out post and I hope the devs see this and take these suggestions into consideration, since they address every problem I and many of her mains have with her. Thank you for bringing up TV placements - it's a big problem that nobody seems to acknowledge - and for suggesting to increase the lullaby's range instead of removing it; a lot of people underrate its mindgame possibilities, so changing the lullaby after the visual terror radius addition instead of completely removing it is definitely the best choice. I always thought she needed basekit Brutal Strenght when demanifested, but your "breaking pallets when manifesting" proposal is much better, and probably even more balanced since it requires good timing.
The only thing I disagree with is the Ring Drawing change (I absolutely agree that it shouldn't apply Condemned stacks to slugged survivors though). I think so because when taking into consideration your basekit Condemn buff (Condemned is applied when teleporting + when hitting shortly after a teleport), which is absolutely needed, having Ring Drawing work on unhooks might become a bit too oppressive, since as of now you can hook next to a TV and teleport right after the unhook, giving a Condemned stack to both of them. If your basekit changes were to go through, then I think Ring Drawing would be better left as it is with the exception of slug pickups. Without taking your basekit change suggestions into consideration, then I'd agree with giving that buff to Ring Drawing (buffed basekit is the better outcome though).
You should definitely try to get this moved to Feedback and Suggestions
@[Deleted User] said:
Every Onryo I go against is a beast she definitely is already in a good spot condemned should be a bit more effective but already a super strong killer IMO
The problem is that Sadako as a killer can be super strong and oppressive only when having a couple of the same add-on combos equipped. Applying Condemned without Ring Drawing is extremely hard (technically possible, but it's so hard and time consuming it's basically never worth it, and obviously its progress could be deleted at any given time by the survivor) and her basekit time cooldowns makes it so that Condemned is straight up ignored the majority of the time, when that add-on is not used. OP's proposed changes wouldn't make her a stronger killer to face than the Sadakos you currently see; it would just mean they don't have to have an Iridescent and a Rare add-on equipped all the time in order to actually use her powers.
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Agreed, depipping should be removed
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458499#Comment_3458499
How is that a problem? You're using a perk to deactivate another perk, they can't be used at the same time, it's one or the other
The perk does NOT deserved to be nerfed into the ground, ESPECIALLY since my idea is probably the best way to go about it
Otherwise, we would have lots of posts complaining about renewal because "it's a free health state after getting hooked"
I never said the perk should be nerfed into the ground (but it should definitely be nerfed in its current state) and I never even commented on your rework idea...
The user I replied to said that the sinergy between MFT (the perk in its current state, not your version) and Hope is basically its only problem, and I think that its possible sinergy with perks like BL, Dead Hard and Smash Hit are very problematic too.
It doesn't matter if MFT deactivates when you can pair it with Exhaustion perks that you can activate very late into a chase. MFT, as of now, gives you guaranteed haste with no time limits nor requirements. You're gonna get injured, you will always have MFT active. It's free haste, something no other perk of its kind does, having either time limits or special requirements. Exhaustion perks specifically activate the Exhaustion status effect so you can only use one at a time. Being able to gain considerably more chase time for free thanks to MFT makes it even easier to get to activate that exhaustion perk's requirements (ex. finding a upper floor to trigger BL) and then get even more haste and extend chases even further, with no more effort required than the one used when using BL/DH/SH without MFT. The fact that current MFT gives such a nice advantage for free, in situations that are guaranteed to happen in game no matter what, makes it a big problem when paired with any haste bonus perk at all. It's busted that MFT doesn't cause exhaustion.
I think your suggestion is solid, its restrictions make MFT's possible sinergy with exhaustion perks a bit less worrisome. But again, the comment I replied to and my response were both referring to the offiicial version of the perk, not yours
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There was a specific day on which I had four consecutive games stop during the very first chase because they wanted to boop my snoot and go friendly. On that specific instance it was kinda frustrating, but it's something that would probably never happen again so I can't vote yes on this poll. I love when they boop the snoot and i always let everyone who does that go, I wish they did it more often since it's rare aside from that weird day
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@iphone_T said:
Honestly think disabling it when exit gates are powered is good enough. The main issue with MFT is it’s pairing with hope which that change would fix.
It can also be chained into DH/BL/Smash Hit/Lithe, and that's also a problem
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Which killers have an uncounterable power in your opinion if I may ask? I feel like fixing whatever killer is uncounterable would be better than making a solution that affects even the weakest ones
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A slightly weaker version of Iri Tape as basekit, and reduced teleport cooldowns would do so much good for her
Changing Ring Drawing to not work on slug pickups but instead work on unhooks would also remove the one thing survivors don't like about playing against Condemned Sadako
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Had the same problem with the Adept Pig achievement (went for it 2 days ago on PC, Epic Games). I suppose Adepts are bugged in general as of now
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agree with all of these!
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The pallet thing is absolutely busted, it would lead to every survivor pre-dropping every single pallet mindlessly, forcing the killer to either spend the whole game breaking them or having to deal with the same pallets every single chase. If you want to reset pallets use Any Means Necessary, it allows the same mechanic but in a balanced way
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@alaenyia said:
You can tell the killer mains in this post haven't played for very long. Med kits got a massive nerf about 3 years ago to what they were just before this. The fact that a med kit will not give you one full heal is ridiculous and makes them useless. Especially ones you get out of a chest. This is a finite resource. People in here are talking as if you could previously use a medkit to heal for the entire match. Nah, fam it was a one and done. There should never be a med kit that has less than one full heal. I am not disturbed by them repeatedly slowing them down but not getting one full heal is ridiculous, especially since the majority of survivor players are solo queue with no guarantee a team mate will heal them.
@alaenyia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446670#Comment_3446670
I do run botany and get 3/4 of a heal from a medkit.
Every medkit will give you at least one full-heal. Botany Knowledge is the problem here, look at its effects:
- Increases your Healing speed by 30/40/50 %.
- Reduces the Healing efficiency of Med-Kits by -20 %.
That second Botany effect has been there since 6.1.0. You could swap it with something like Resurgence or Renewal to get more self-heal value out of medkits in a match
Also, pre-update medkits absolutely granted more than one heal. I used to run yellow or green medkits with both increased charges add-ons almost every match and I could always get so many self-heals it was crazy. I think Botany Knowledge might have been sabotaging you for a while
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When there's a chain hunt, the survivor with the Lament's Configuration will be attacked by three chains spawning one after another. Don't solve the box immediately, keep track of the chains while dodging them, and after you successfully dodged 3 of them you're good to go.
I think this mechanic is balanced and it's super easy to dodge the 3 chains when you're aware of this, but the fact that there's no official information or loading screen tip about this is absolutely unfair to every survivor player who doesn't look up these things willingly. They should just start giving more detailed tips and informations about killers' powers in-game, either on the killers' pages or in a new section on the tutorial section. I feel like almost nobody would hate killers like Pinhead if only BHVR made these informations easily accessible to everybody in-game.
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@Thale20 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3417394#Comment_3417394
Yeah my whole point was about players using it to slug. I used the tape myself already and with this her playstyle gets much more fun but getting slugged until you get fully condemned or you bleed out is just super boring😅
I understand, and I agree that changing Ring Drawing so it doesn't work on slugs would be a great idea, but changing Iri Tape at all would probably nerf Sadako as a whole to the ground, that's why I don't think it should be touched. Slugging being viable for Condemned depends entirely on Ring Drawing
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@Thale20 said:
I think that the onryo right now is not in a healthy position. While the nerf to selfhealing and coh put her in a better spot with hit and run strategies. Most ppl still play her in a super boring way. Sadako with ring drawing and iri videotape is super boring to face. It would be good to buff her basekit and some of the add ons and nerf some of the better ones like these two above.
The Iri Videotape mechanic should be part of her base power if anything, why nerf it? Addon-less Sadako gets punished for using her teleport (shuts down a tv for 100 seconds), which hurts her more than survivors turning TVs off (cooldown of 60 seconds; survivors are much better off just not touching TVs and hiding if they hear Sadako teleporting to them).
I understand that teleport has a longer cooldown to prevent tp spamming, so instead of changing the cooldown times themselves, which could result unbalanced in either direction, you have Iri Videotape which rewards Sadako players for teleporting wisely and getting a hit quick. You cannot use Videotape to spam teleports because it won't work unless you activate it, and to active it you have 8 seconds to hit somebody after teleporting - and most survivors are already on the run when the teleport animation starts. Iri Videotapes is a band-aid that makes Sadako's teleport power worth using more than 3 times a match, and if you see it on Condemned Sadakos it's not because it encourages slugging and boring playstyles but just because it's really just her best add-on overall and it's almost required to make use of her power.
Playing for Condemned kills is already viable, effective and fun without slugging at all now that self-healing has been nerfed. A couple of strategic slugs used to be necessary to guarantee altruistic healing actions, since self-healing was so strong. I rarely played Condemned Sadako because I didn't want to slug, but now I play strictly Condemned while still hooking and never slugging and I get good results. Being good at managing teleports is what's
IMO the best thing to do would be to have Ring Drawing not spread Condemned when picking up a downed survivor anymore, and have Iri Videotape basekit. Current Iri Videotape turns on 4 TVs when activated; maybe have basekit Videotape turn on 3 TVs and the Iri add-on turn on 5 or something like that. This way you kill off the only boring aspect (slugging) of the ideal Sadako playstyle without nerfing her powers to the point of only being useful as a boring M1 killer like Freddy.
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Agreed, Freddy feels terribly bland and generic to play as and against. The Dream World poses no threat at all to survivors, if anything it's much better to be in it since it's so easier to see.
Desperately needs a rework of some sort
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400217#Comment_3400217
What exactly are you expecting out of DS? A free escape?
also, its exactly like Pentimento when Survivors don't cleanse totems. wow WORTHLESS. if THAT is fine, then DS also is.
When did I ever say that..? My argument is that it has the same stun time as Head On on paper, but in reality it doesn't because its animation is included. I admit I should have checked how long it lasts before writing 5/6 seconds as I did in the OP, because it's definitely longer than I was thinking, but you're just willingly misinterpreting what I'm saying at this point - I'm asking for the breaking free animation time to be added to the stun time. That's probably less than a full second, so the survivor would have less or as much time to react as when Head On is used. And I doubt Head On grants free escapes.
That's not a fair comparison, that's why I said Plaything and not Pentimento. DS's usefulness depends on your rival's actions - something that you can't predict before starting a game. It's more akin to Unbreakable or Mad Grit. Pentimento, like Undying or Blood Rush, gives you a backup plan if the core strategy of your loadout gets countered. An anti-tunnel perk could always be useful as long as tunneling exists; an anti-hex-cleasing perk is only useful if you're bringing hexes.
@imakepeoplehateme said:
Ds is not a weak perk.Its in the top 15 most used perks(according to nightlight),placed highly on many perk tierlists,and from personal experience i can attest to its strength(lost many games to it,i run all the time when i play surv).The perk isn't a contender for the strongest perk in the game like it used to be and thats fine.Thats where a well designed perk should be,strong but not game breaking.It doesn't give you distance for free,it allows you to resume loping and thats it.It's also the best perk to pair with DH,due to its strong synergy.
Sole survivors is a worthless perk,like 80% of all perks in this game(its not a problem uniquely attached to it).Atleast laurie has one strong perk.Poor pyramid head,pig and ghostface have nothing going for them and they are also licensed characters.
Oh DS can be useful in specific situations, but completely useless against killers who can cover that range in no time. I think just adding those few 0. seconds I mentioned here wouldn't change the perk's power in other situations and just make it worth it even against those killers. Again, I apologize for those 5/6 seconds I wrote in the OP because I didn't realize it's a huge change from 3 at first. I basically just want the perk's stun to be the same as Head On's, not just on paper though.
Me wanting Sole Survivor to become more useful doesn't mean I don't want the same for other characters; all of the rarely used, really weak perks should be changed. But since I wanted to suggest that change to DS too I decided to put them both on the same post since they belong to the same character. I love Piggy and Ghostie and their perks need a buff too for sure (I like I'm All Ears a lot on some killers though I won't lie)
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(edited because i accidentally double posted due to internet connection problems)
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@Emeal said:
DS is performing fine at the moment, Don't forget you cant stack it with many effects.
Which was why bHVR removed the 5 sec stun to begin with.
I understand, but simply having DS without something to complement it such as a flashbangs or firecrackers is pretty much useless unless you're in a very specific scenario. Usually perks that are at their best when combo'ed with others (DMS with Pain Res, Plaything with Pentimento) are still kinda usable if on their own, and even then they need less conditions than the DS/stun item combo (you need to have a firecracker/flashbang at hand to increase the stun).
Plus everything that stacks on DS's time stun also stacks on Head On's time stun for example, and Head On (which can be activated more freely and isn't an anti-tunnel perk) allows for more freedom and time to react since its stun time doesn't include an animation like DS. A 3 seconds time stun on DS per se would actually be fine in my opinion, the problem is that the DS user is also unable to move during some of that time, so it's not actually 3 seconds. Simply making the perk's stun time 3 seconds + (how ever long is the animation of the survivor getting on the ground and becoming playable again) would be a perfect fix imo, even if that turns out to be something like 3.20 seconds instead of the proposed 5.
@Boons123 said:
Sometimes the killer will stand at the hatch and wait for you to close it in your face
Well, "Solo Survivor" helps me with this situation where I go and fix the generators to force the killer to close the hatch and trigger the endgame
I agree with you on all points, but this point I wanted to clarify
That's something I haven't considered, it's definitely a more niche situation but considering the perk has other functions that makes sense. Maybe then the aura-blocking part of the perk could use a buff? The generator speed thing is still so niche that Distortion/Wake Up remains a more palatable pick than Sole Survivor, so buffing that a bit could help increase the perk's low usage rate
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@Veroles said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400077#Comment_3400077
I can not agree on that in average more positive things appear than negative ones but i am the opinion instead of removing chat people should simply get punished more for their behavior. I also have funny moments and sometimes it can be cool that the chat exists.
Besides i also think that the gaming industry should do more enlightenment's campaigns and videos about what's toxic and what not and why people feel offended by something ingame and feel the need to insult others.
Oh no I didn't mean it like that, I also think DBD post-game chat is more negative than positive overall - it's just that I only stick around when I feel I'm gonna get nice/fun messages (friendly matches, games where last one gets hatch, matches where something meme-y like a game-breaking bug happened...) so overall I see more positive personally, and that's why I suggest doing the same. I'll still have players writing slurs because I use the pride charm (or get a baby Bill proudly telling me he reported me for not giving him hatch lol).
I agree that the solution is not to remove chat, but to punish toxic behaviour more heavily, and your idea about the campaigns sounds great. I was talking with a friend who doesn't have dbd and she said the only things she knows about it is that it's a slasher game, Ghostface and Steve Harrington are in it, and the playerbase is extremely toxic. Heavily punishing this behaviour is the only proper way to change this imo
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Personally I think the chat should stay, I feel that I have more positive memories of it than negative ones. Having the scarecrow Kate spam "ggez loser" after a loss sucks, but then I'll get cute survivors complimenting my Ghostface and striking up a casual conversation in the match right after that.
If I have the gut feeling chat is not going to be nice I just click 'Continue' asap so I don't see anything. If I stuck around and still got heavily toxic messages (not talking about eyeroll stuff like "noob", "ez" or messages like that, I'm talking death threats, slurs and so on), I'll screenshot and send a report. Stuff like this should have people banned and that's the only actual way to stop this behaviour (because without an in-game chat they'll just find your steam/ps/etc account and post those messages there)
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Agreed
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I would pay gold for a survivor-only Scream DLC with Sidney, similar to what they did for Ash
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I'm kinda curious though, which killers would you like to block?
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I agree with the Sadako part. Wraith makes a (much shorter-ranged) noise when he's cloaked, but that makes sense because he has an uncloak speed boost that gives him a headstart. There's absolutely no point in Sadako having a lullaby that nullifies her stealth, and have her slow down when manifesting too.
And it makes no sense for the Tv teleport cooldown (which is definitely too high right now) to be longer than the cooldown for TVs that were turned off by survivors. This gives survivors zero incentive to actually interact with them, hiding or taking the chase will always be a better survivor strategy than turning TVs off and risking to get Condemned - unless you base your entire build and playstyle around the Condemned mechanic, it literally never comes up during the match, it's not viable enough.
Right now the only way to properly use her Condemned power is to always have the Ring Drawing addon equipped and it should be basekit, a killer's power shouldn't be dependant on you having spent enough bloodpoints for it to be viable.
I think the lullaby should be removed, the tv teleport cooldowns should be swapped with each other, and Ring Drawing should be basekit. Sadako's high kill rates are solely caused by Condemned strat players anyway, so these changes wouldn't inflate the kill rates even more but they would simply make the playstyle less frustrating and more fun and interactive for both sides, actually giving the survivors a chance to play more interactively (since right now the only way you can properly use Sadako's power is by spending bloodpoints on an add-on and slug at least a couple of times per match, and that feels scummy and unnecessary)
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Funnily enough, that's how the Onryō normally attacks in the Sadako vs Kayako movie