tjt85
tjt85
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Part of the fun for me is trying to make the best of a bad build. Sometimes I'm even learning about how some perks work for the first time (or I forget what I've got in play and realise after the fact how it would have been useful). That is kind of the down side of the mode, really. If I struggle to remember what all the perks do, I imagine newer players might feel totally lost half the time.
Trouble is, BHVR have made whether or not you have fun contingent on an unwritten gentleman's agreement. You're meant to treat the game more like it's a games night with your friends and not a for realsies visit to the Thunderdome. This is true of every single mode they've made so far and always will be. They clearly don't want to do anything that might alienate the part of the player base that takes this game way too seriously. But at least when the other side sweats in Chaos Shuffle, they can't also bring a full build to make your experience even worse. This is why I much prefer it to regular 1V4.
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They could possibly make Slinger 4.6 m/s to help him get around those gigantic maps a little better. But that's all he really needs since his 1V1 is already very strong. I'm a little worried Chucky will suffer from the same mobility problem when he's added to the mode as well.
But to be honest, for the most part I don't think many Killers need a buff in 2V8. In my experience, it's been the most balanced of all modes (with an almost exact 40/60 Escape / Kill rate).
That said, anything that might help improve variety would be a good thing because I'm tired of seeing either a Huntress or a Wesker in every other round.
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I've got most of the features that I'd like to see in the game already.
The big one I would have liked to have seen is the anti-tunnel and anti-slug systems come into the game (along with the comeback mechanic for Survivors that suffer an early exit), but I've realise that's never going to happen now. Slugging and tunnelling just aren't viewed as terrible flaws to the game's design by much of the player base. The message I got from that sorry chapter of DBD history is if you don't like those things, you should play some other game (which is mostly what I've been doing since the last 2V8).
Besides that, I would like vault perks to interact with Legion's Frenzy power. This is also probably never gonna happen so I guess I'll just have to hope BHVR breaks Fire Up again. Not sure that counts as a feature but still, something I'd like to see.
I'd also like accessories for skins to be unequippable / optional. They can cause clipping issues and ruin an otherwise appealing cosmetic (love Haddie's t-shirt with the cute little ghost design but the oversized backpack that comes with it, not so much).
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Surprised to see so many others on the forum also prefer Chaos Shuffle over 2V8. Definitely thought it might be the other way around.
I do like 2V8 as well, but I've realised the main attraction for me is the Killer side of the mode. The Survivor side became stale for me a few iterations ago and at times I've found 2V8 to be the worst Survivor experience out of every version of DBD.
But the Killer has to feel different when compared to 1V4 to appeal, otherwise I just take a break when it's live. 2V8 was the most fun you could possibly have playing as Legion. But Billy on the other hand is far too much like his 1V4 iteration to bother with and sadly didn't do it for me in the last iteration. I'm hopeful that 2V8 Chucky will be able to fill that Legion shaped hole but who knows…
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I could be wrong, but doesn't the PTB have bot Survivors to help deal with the long queue times? I imagine they could add bots to the 2V8 PTB queue without much protest, anyway. I doubt anyone would mind because the mode is primarily for testing and experimentation.
Perhaps they want to do a 2V8 PTB to avoid adding things to the mode that players will only end up complaining endlessly about (like what happened with The Legion). Btw, does anyone know if they will be coming back for the next 2V8? I've been taking a long break from DBD, so I've not kept up with all the recent developments.
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The highlights for me in 2025:
- More perk loadout presets (6 is fine, though I still think we need more).
- Legion buffs. They're not really all that much stronger for the buffs, but they are a lot more enjoyable to play.
- More customisable colours for scratch marks. No more struggling to see scratch marks on the farm maps is a huge win for me.
- The abandon button. Still not perfect (it should activate when only two Survivors are remaining in the trial if the Killer wants to slug for the 4K), but it's still better than nothing.
- Stats page.
- Vee is my favourite new Survivor for quite a while (Since Sable).
- Edit; I forgot about the new blood gen event. I think those are a neat idea and make a change from doing the same old gens.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039072#Comment_4039072
Well let me give you an example…
Imagine you are a pro blight player and you try to archive a 2000+ Winstreak
Where would you go for the best chances?
In the ranked mode where most of the people tryhard and could beat you
Or in the Casual mode where you can slug and tunnel as much as you want against uncoordinated teams?
I think the best way to keep sweats out of a casual queue would be to design the mode to be totally unappealing to them. I mean, BHVR just spent 6 months developing a bunch of tunnelling and camping mitigations that the sweatier players absolutely HATED. Why not use those in a new mode?
Heck, I think if they were to create a fully randomised Chaos Shuffle with most of those anti-tunnel and anti-slug mitigations in place, it could be a good first effort at creating a DBD "casual" mode. They could also add stronger base-kit gen slow down and regression for rewarding the spreading of hooks (say a stackable pain res or pop effect that gets stronger with each unique hook or a grim embrace effect to block all gens for getting your first 4 hooks on 4 different Survivors).
If they didn't want to go the Chaos Shuffle route, they could limit perks slots for specific classes of perks (only 1 slot reserved for slowdown on the Killer side and 1 gen perk on the Survivor side) or make SWFs play with more randomised perk slots the bigger their party happens to be (Solos have no restrictions, duos get 2 randomised perks slots, trios get 3 and a full team plays with fully randomised slots). And a cool down in place for Killer blinds, so you can't keep blinding the Killer repeatedly in quick succession.
These are just ideas, of course. I admit some of them are a little artificial and might make DBD feel a bit too video gamey to some players. But I'm sure they could come up with a mode that retains the essence of DBD, while still limiting the more frustrating parts of the game (and doesn't obliterate queue times or get old fast in the way that 2V8 does).
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@Reinami said:
In general these other games tend to fail because they focus on a single IP. And the company has a history of just abandoning their games early on while leaving them in a horrible state.
What we need is a game LIKE VHS or that carnival one to come out, change the formula, and succeed based on the game being good by developers who show that they care, and listen to feedback and are in it for the long haul.
I was going to make the same point. DBD is a success because it's had the time to build up 10 years worth of original and licensed content and managed to (for the most part) seamlessly bring it all together.
The only other asym that I play is Ghostbusters: Spirits Unleashed (another Illfonic project that's been put on life support). It's a fantastic game and everything that a Ghostbusters fan could want from an online Ghostbusters experience. But at this point they've pretty much added most of the content that they could. Sure they could create more maps and skins to unlock, perhaps add some more story campaigns but there's not really much else they could do with the game to give it extra longevity. It's risky to put time and effort into those things because if it doesn't bring in new or returning players, it'll be a very poor business decision for them.
Unless your single IP video game has a very deep well of established lore to draw from (like Star Wars, Star Trek or Marvel), you're very quickly going to run out of new content to add to keep players interested.
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I've enjoyed goofing around as Chucky and throwing snow skulls when I've played. But to be honest I'm just playing to unlock the cosmetics that I care about and I much preferred how the event was last year. I really liked the moving snowmen and had a huge amount of fun traversing the map in one as Survivor (I got really good at mimicking their weird tank like movements) and jump scaring the Survivors as Killer. The maps feels totally empty without them and there is obviously no element of surprise hiding inside them anymore. I have no idea why they were removed. The new Survivor throwing animation is neat I guess, if kinda janky but I have no desire to play Survivor right now anyway.
Hot off the heals of a 2V8 that deleted my Killer of choice and a very poor Halloween event, it's topped off a year of disappointments for me. There are also too many people in the event queue that aren't willing to interact with the event mechanics, but that goes without saying at this point. I think it's time we had one queue again for all the difference it's made to split them.
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Damn… This is a tragedy for the game. I'm not a fan of his recent rework into the freakin' Shape Guy and I don't really enjoy playing as Mikey anymore, but this is still a very sad turn of events.
Myers and Leather Face were two of the biggest reasons why I started playing this game in the first place. It might not be a huge financial loss for BHVR, since a lot of the newer content has probably brought in an influx of players who consider Springtrap to be a bigger deal than one of the OG slasher icons, but it's still bad news. A lot of the younger players might not even know who he is.
Still, I'm going to miss my Halloween tradition of bringing a Haddonfield offering on October 31st and playing at least one Myers game on his home turf :(
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Trouble is, you can't just buff Killers with more base kit gen regression and hope they play "nice" as a result. It won't work because it doesn't take into account the mentality of players who play the game this way. They want to win and they will do whatever it takes to get that win. It wouldn't reduce tunnelling at all because Killers would still tunnel in situations where they've identified a weak link. If taking a weak player out of the game remains the best means of securing a victory, these types of players will still tunnel regardless of the buffs they might otherwise get for not tunnelling. So the only real alternative is to buff the remaining Survivors when this happens, so that they're still in with a chance of maybe making a comeback (or to "punish" the Killer for getting an optimal early kill, if you prefer to see it that way).
As for punishing players who play optimally, optimal play is the biggest killer of fun in DBD. That goes for both sides. The game just isn't well balanced for "optimal" play. For the Killer role to work for half the roster, I think Survivors need to be somewhat inefficient / prone to making mistakes. That's why they don't have complete information of the game state, cannot communicate very well and don't really know what their team is up to or where the Killer is (at least beyond the limited info given to them by their choice of perks). If I could find three other people to play with and we did little more than glue ourselves to the gens, I'm sure we would still do relatively well escapes wise (so long as they were objective focused enough to knock out two or three gens in the first few minutes of the game).
I don't think it would harm the game for the devs to put some breaks on so called optimal play, to be honest. DBD was never designed to be played the way that it is by the more competitively minded parts of the community. Just look at the comp scene. There are so many artificial rule changes deemed necessary in their tournaments for DBD to be a viable competitive game (something I find very ironic, considering a lot of the same players were arguing that the anti-tunnel systems interrupted the natural flow of trials and made playing Killer too restrictive an experience). Beyond the obviously impressive skill on show, comp DBD is very boring to watch because you kinda know what the game plan will be before the match even begins.
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Honest answer, Lucky Star is better than both perks in my opinion. Such a slept on perk. Seeing the nearest gen and what your team is up to every 30 seconds is so helpful in Solo Q. You can get a good idea of what the current game state is and make better decisions thanks to the info it provides.
Also has a bonus stealth feature to hide your blood pools and injured sound which has saved my bacon so many times. But it's not a free perk, so perhaps not fair to compare to Kindred/Bond.
Of the free perks, I prefer Bond. But that's mostly because I don't like to see my team on the other side of the map doing absolutely nothing yet still not bothering to come and rescue me off hook.
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It probably depends on whether you favour playing as male or female Survivors more often as to what feels strange to you.
I personally prefer the female Survivors partly because they feel like they're running faster. Their animation is so familiar to me that whenever I switch over to a male survivor, it takes me a few trials before it stops feeling weird.
Besides, even though I know they're both the exact same speed, the male Survivor run cycle looks to me like they're out on a leisurely morning jog instead of running away at top speed from blood thirsty Killer.
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I wouldn't be dodging lobbies. But then I think that showing your team's perks in the lobby is a pretty bad idea. We shouldn't be giving players a reason to lobby dodge if we want to give the MMR system a shot at working.
I think there are better ways to show beneficial perks to other Survivors within the trial itself. They're kind of already half way there with the little icon that pops up in the corner with perks like Vigil and We'll Make It. All they need to do is expand on that. Why not make perks like Botany Knowledge or Desperate Measures pop up for injured teammates whenever they are nearby? Or something to show that Soul Guard or Unbreakable is in play if the team is slugged.
They could make also make a Head On locker glow within a certain range for Survivors that are being chased by the Killer. Things like this would definitely take more work but it would be a better way to do things than to encourage more lobby dodging.
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I'm against splitting the queues for no good reason. It's been proven to me time and time again that DBD doesn't really have the player base to support more than one queue.
I don't understand why BHVR don't just up the chances of getting an Ormond map for the duration of the Winter event if they want more players to experience it. There's no need for a separate queue. And if the point is to give Survivors an opportunity to explore different maps, then give us a Trapper bot for every realm and let us practice in custom games without the pressures of a real trial instead.
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@Skeleton23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035785#Comment_4035785
Nope im fully on switch. I only have a switch and I am planning on getting more platforms but for now its just the switch
As a fellow Switch player, I don't recommend linking your accounts for cross progression if you ever want to enjoy playing on that platform again.
Not much of what you bought on Switch will transfer to your new account, anyway (except for unlocked perks, inventories and prestiges). And you will only get access to characters if you bought them with auric cells or iri shards.
In my opinion, just start completely fresh with any new account. As far as I know, with cross progression there is no separate MMR for each platform. You will almost certainly do better with your Killer of choice on the other platforms, so if you try to go back to playing on the Switch you'll probably end up having a very rough time of it. That's been my experience, anyway. I would not have linked my Switch up to my Steam account if I'd known I'd ruin the game on Switch for myself.
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My most honest answer, if BHVR were to dangle in front of me any shiny new content that's on my wishlist, then I will come back to playing Survivor once again. If we get Robin with the upcoming Stranger Things 2 chapter, I won't really care too much about the state of my Solo Q games (at least for a while until the usual frustrations begin to bite again).
If they were to revert the Fog Vial nerfs and/or give us a slither of a crumb of an atom of the anti-tunnel and anti-slugging systems they developed, that would probably get me to return to playing Survivor as well.
But since we've all been lead to believe that Killers would quit the game en masse if some kind of functional anti-tunnel/anti-slugging system was added to prevent trials from becoming a boring mopping up operation after an early tunnel out, that ain't gonna happen any time soon. So yeah, I'm not likely to be a Survivor main for the foreseeable.
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Is that for real!?
So incredibly stingy. Only 400 iri shards on Christmas day when we got 1K in previous years.
With all the rewards together, there's barely enough there for a single basic cosmetic piece. You couldn't even buy a perk from the shrine with that. Wow, thanks BHVR. I'll try not to spend them all in one place.
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The brutally honest answer? I'd rather they not bother. They'll only have to scrap all their hard work as soon as their biggest content creators actually have to work hard for their kills and escapes. The moment anyone starts to take winning and losing seriously in this game, any semblance of balance that ever existed instantly crumbles to dust. It's just not a very well balanced game at any level of skill, to be honest.
And since we're not actually doing anything about the cheesy strategies on both sides that can win you trials, I'm not sure any MMR system worth a damn could be created in such an environment anyway. Because there isn't a good foundation in place to build one on top of.
The Survivor experience is so much worse following the "QoL" patches then when they started. I've accepted that the game we have is what we have and nothing beyond rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic is possible without another major outcry from the community. So please BHVR, I'm begging you. Forget about this and use the time more wisely to fix bugs and create new content.
With all that said:
Split the queues less often
This might be controversial, but I think having split queues was a mistake. It's failed to do what it was meant to do, which is to encourage players to queue only if they want to interact with the event mechanics. But players keep queuing up in the event queue to ignore the event stuff anyway, so we may as well all queue together and give the match-making system a shot at working properly instead. I get that 2V8 and Chaos Shuffle need to be separate since they differ from the main mode, but the Anniversary, Halloween and Winter events should not be split. Maybe it doesn't matter so much if you live in a more populous region, but I play on the UK and Ireland servers, so frequently splitting the queues makes a big difference to the quality of my games.
Attempt to match play styles
They could use the emblem system to match up different play styles. Active Survivors should match with other active Survivors, stealthy gamers with other stealthy gamers (that said, without info perks, playing against lobbies like this as Killer would be miserable). Meme build enjoyers with other meme build enjoyers, etc. Not sure exactly how this could be done, but maybe there is a way.
No more instantaneous matches
I know that if I get instant matches on either side, the skill levels are going to be wildly different. The system hasn't been given enough time to work and is just grabbing anyone to fill a spot and make the queues faster. But I'd rather not be playing the game if there's nobody queuing around my skill level to play with. This is probably the biggest issue I have with match-making right now and the biggest cause of frustration. This leads on to my next point...
More MMR bands
I don't know for certain, but I strongly suspect that there are really only two MMR bands: total beginners and everyone else. The everyone else band might include players at 100 hours just about understanding the fundamentals of the game to 10,000 hour demons who know how to play every loop and checkspot in the game. Obviously this makes for some very wild match-making. MMR should have more bands and they should be somewhat tighter than they currently are.
Implement platform specific MMR
This possibly only affects a small number of players, so perhaps this should not be a priority, but I think my Switch and PC MMR should be tracked separately. Simply put, the technical gulf between the two platforms is so great that I can't play as well on the Switch as I do on PC. I tend to have much more fun over on Switch when we get cut off from the rest of the player base. So I think platforms should have their own MMR.
Killer specific MMR should start lower
Sometimes when I play a new Killer, I get much harder lobbies than I do with my mains. I'm guessing this is because my MMR is much less stable on the Killers I don't use very often. But I think there's no reason to expect me to do as well with The Ghoul as I might with Billy, despite them both being considered very strong by the community. The idea that if you're good with a few other Killers then you should be decent with every Killer only really applies to the very experienced players, imo (e.g. 10,000 hour streamers).
MMR should be more dynamic
In other online games I can feel the MMR system working. In Fortnite, if I eliminate 10 to 15 other players and win a Victory crown, my opposition gets stronger in my next few games. If I'm eliminated early because I can't maintain that level, I get easier opponents in my following matches. This doesn't happen in DBD. You can go on a 10 match losing streak as Killer but nothing changes. And it really doesn't work at all for the Survivor side. The more you lose as Survivor, the harder your games become because the teams get much weaker and you need your other teammates to pull their weight if you are to Survive. It's a difficult puzzle to solve, but the emblem system should at least be used to put active low MMR Survivors together with one another so they have a shot at getting out. It might be controversial to say, but I think MMR should "rubber band" a bit more freely than it currently does, so players don't get too frustrated to be stuck on a losing streak.
No more lobby dodging
Once you're at the campfire with 4 other players, you should be locked in. Keep the 1 minute timer for pre-game chat and for the Killer to make build adjustments, but once you've been matched there should be no backing out.
Ditch MMR altogether and embrace the chaos
They'll never do it, but maybe they should just forget about the MMR system completely and just match everyone at random. At the very least, we can then stop thinking and complaining about it never working properly.
I don't know where I'll land in terms of my MMR, but I'm not looking forward to being dropped into low MMR hell where nobody touches a gen all trial or into high MMR hell where every game ever is a zero chill quad slowdown Blight/Ghoul/Krasue trying to make the trial a 3v1 at the earliest opportunity. At this point, I have very little faith in BHVR not to mess things up more than they were before.
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My escape rate was 41%, which is exactly the same as my overall escape rate for the mode.
I only played 17 Survivor trials this time, because that's how many it took to get enough quests completed to unlock the collectable stuff (and then I took a break). I'm kind of over 2V8 now that I have no Killer to queue up and play as.
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I've never felt like they were ever a problem but I knew they were on BHVR's chopping block because all the "top MMR" content creators hate them.
I'm not really much of an item gamer myself but I do use a Med-Kit regularly with my builds that don't include self healing perks. Even so, I don't think I've ever used either of these add-ons. But I do kinda like the syringe changes because it's become way more useful to me as anti-tunnel. Now I can get double value from my Sprint Burst if I'm getting chased off hook, so I might actually start using my supply of them.
I have nothing good to say about the styptic changes, though. It's terrible for a purple add-on.
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I would maybe go with The Esper, to reference his psychic abilities or maybe The Orderly (similar to The Nurse and The Doctor).
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Sweet! I'd be more excited but I've kinda known it would be Stranger Things Part 2 since Hawkins got some attention and Stranger Things went on sale for the first time since it returned.
I'm hoping for Robin and Eddie (but mostly for Robin). If they make Robin a Legendary I'll honestly be a little bit disappointed. I don't think BHVR or Netflix would want to pass up on selling extra cosmetics for her but then maybe she's not that popular? If she is going to be a legendary, then we better be getting Scoops Ahoy Robin so we can be the Scoops Troop.
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@bazarama said:
I main Trapper (naughty bear), Legion and Ghostface with others I use a fair amount like Clown, Trickster, Huntress, Deathslinger and Chucky.
In my opinion these killers are more enjoyable to play if you're like me and couldn't care less about winning and having fun instead.
(On a side note lightborn brings so much joy to my games and never leave home without it)
I occasionally use other a lot of other killers for the odd game or killer master challenges but never use Nurse, Blight or Ghoul. Don't have either the time or inclination to learn them as they just don't appeal to me.
Xeno in particular sucks on console so never play it and the nerfs to Knight destroyed a fun and original killer.
As far as survivors go I constantly see Meg , Feng and Lara Croft so some variety would be nice there too.
I try to play Killer with the same attitude and main a lot of same Killers. The only "strong" Killer that I play is Billy but I'm not even good with him. Most of the time I'm just trying to drift around the map or going for curves (but 50% time bumping into rocks and trees instead).
I wish BHVR would bring back those "play one trial as such and such" for a reward of BP or Rift Fragments. It would do a lot to encourage more variety in trials. I played a Ghoul game the other day and got completely dunked on, with no hooks and the obligatory bags at the exit gate for absolutely no reason (playing Ghoul is apparently reason enough). A little extra something might convince some to play Killers they're not so confident or skilled with if there's some reward to lessen the sting of losing a bit.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031810#Comment_4031810
I'm dropping my comment to express my opinion as one of the minority (at least here, based on comments and downvotes) that actually likes the new look for Autohaven. It brings back old DBD vibes for me. Sure, it takes some adjusting, but I like it.
We might be a minority but I have to say I also like the new look. I think it gives the map a spooky otherworldy vibe. It has less of a cool colour temperature now and I much prefer that.
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It won't help the players that really need it. But I suppose it might buff Survivors that are already pretty good loopers a tiny bit. But not as much as you might think, since confident loopers tend to run at least one anti-tunnel perk. It suits them to be tunnelled so they can waste more of the Killer's time (plus if they're in a skilled SWF, they know their buddies will have their backs when they eventually do go down with a well timed pallet / beamer save).
Survivors that are the weak links of the group will be as easy to quickly eliminate as they are now. Counting to 15 instead of 10 is not exactly difficult.
So other than buffing already skilled Survivors, it's essentially a redundant addition to the game. I don't know why the Devs wasted so much time on any of this.
As for me personally, I've retired from Survivor outside of doing the odd tome challenge (though I might play more if someone from my chapter wishlist finally gets added to the game, at least for a little while). To tell the truth, I'd mostly walked away from the role already, but the failures of the last 2 PTBs put the final nails in the coffin. You can bet when I do play Survivor for those challenges, it will be with a full loadout of anti-tunnel perks.
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Sable hate is a real phenomenon and partly the reason why I stopped playing her so often. It definitely feels like she gets targeted by Killers a lot more and helped by the other Survivors a lot less than my other mains. My escape rate is at 29%, that's even lower than my Scene Partner Steve. And I usually expect to be tunnelled out early as a Stegull because a lot of Killers just want to shut him up.
(I'm sure part of the targeting from Killers is down to her aura having a distinctive silhouette with the spiky woolly hat cosmetic that I like to wear, but I don't think that fully explains the lower escape rate).
Killers seem to think tunnelling out a Sable is a safe bet and I wish she was a more popular character with Survivors that favour the looping play style (instead of going for the usual base-kit Iron Will picks like Ace, Nancy and Ada).
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030892#Comment_4030892
DLCs are definitely the lifeblood, though I feel survivors are bigger cosmetic consumers than killers. That's why for every one new killer cosmetic there's multiple for survivor. I feel like DLC consumption is probably higher among those who play mostly killer. Survivors are ultimately just different skins while new killers offer a fresh experience. I could be wrong though.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030899#Comment_4030899
Yeah, maybe introverts and extroverts are the wrong distinction. I guess passive personalities vs assertive personalities might be more accurate?
I'd buy the argument that Survivors are more passive if complaints about Legion in 2V8 weren't so noisy that BHVR felt a need to remove them from the mode. While I think BHVR mostly listens to whoever shouts the loudest and Survivors are more than willing to speak up and make their voices heard, they rarely have prominent voices fighting their corner in the big issue balance discussions. That's the biggest difference, imo.
When I look at Survivor main content creators, they tend to post videos featuring goofy comic moments or value from a silly gimmicky build. They generally don't make balance discussion videos. Killer main content creators seem to make a lot more content of this nature. Then you have the "both sides" mains who are often really Killer mains at heart. Their preference is for playing Killer and you can see it in their body language when they play the role which matters most to them. These content creators are the ones I think BHVR should be most wary of, because their bias is not so obvious and their takes might seem more "balanced" when compared to others. When these guys make Survivor content, it's often to highlight something on the Survivor side that they don't like. They might not even be aware they're doing this. Obviously I'm generalising a lot here, but I think content creators have an outsized impact on the game and we know some of them are also part of the consultant program.
Content creators who can mobilise their viewers to flood discussions with their own talking points are frequently the biggest obstacle to meaningful changes and way more impactful when it comes to BHVR's decision making than the opinions of average players. This is especially true of the very casual players who probably don't even know these discussions are happening. Some players might not even know about the two anti-tunnel/anti-slugging PTBs we've just had. I honestly think a majority of the play base would have liked a lot of what was on offer in the recent PTBs, but that stuff was never going to make it past veteran players with their distorted experience of playing the imbalanced mess that is high MMR DBD.
I think every voice BHVR will hear is biased to a degree and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. I might play mostly Killer these days but I'm still a Survivor main in my preferences. Killer is fun but I can get that first person view power fantasy itch scratched playing a 100+ other games. But Survivor in DBD is a unique experience and I just desperately wish it was more enjoyable because there isn't really anything else like it out there.
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Given the response Legion got, I don't think there are many more Killers that BHVR can add to the mode without the player base rioting again.
I think Unknown, Myers, Artist, Demogorgon, Vecna, Houndmaster and Bubba would be relatively uncontroversial additions. Curious why you think Demo and Bubba are unlikely. Is it because of licensing issues? Springtrap will probably be in eventually, but may take more work with his control room doors.
Krasue and Ghoul could easily be added without needing many buffs, but would they be welcomed? Probably not. Same goes for other easy to add Killers that have their haters (Plague, Trickster, Skull Merchant, Chucky, Doctor, Knight and Clown). I can't see Pig or Sadako ever being added. Having to return video tapes and remove head traps with another Killer on patrol will make mending from Legion's deep wound feel fun by comparison.
Like others have said, I think BHVR will prioritise licensed Killers so they can flog some more content. Same as when they added Legion with the Resi chapter to sell more Hunk skins. They can always remove them at a later date if they get a poor reception.
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@The_Count said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030232#Comment_4030232
Never applies to killers because they indeed have to get good to keep up with all braindead crap survs gets.
Tunnel for example requires you to be good at chases while gen rushing can be pulled by a trained goat, cat, dog or whatever.
I don't like Hens either, but he's right with this take. Dedicate yourself to learn things in general instead of expecting them to get easier.
Balance always have to be done taking high skill at it's base so people have to improve and thus making matches better for everyone.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030257#Comment_4030257
All of this and it still not enough because tunnel is still better at dealing with gen speeds. There shouldn't be possible for a single person to finish a gen in 34s or a duo in 22s.
Tunnel and gen rush have to be addressed together.I'm not talking about the cracked commando SWFs with no weak links that Hens and the like go up against in their showcases. I'm talking about an average Solo/Duo queue where there's pretty much always a guaranteed weak link to exploit. With respect, if you're tunnelling the Survivors that can loop well then you're doing it wrong. Most Killers that tunnel will try to identify a weak chaser early so that they can make it a 3 v 1 to buy the time they need to deal with the more experienced loopers. You don't need to "get good" to pull this off. It's a very basic strategy that works because DBD has a very lax MMR system that doesn't measure skill very well. I don't think "skill" can be measured accurately in DBD anyway. There are way too many variables/perks/Killer powers to take account of.
Trouble is, there's no tension or excitement when a Killer has dumped a Survivor out of the game early. There's nothing left for the remaining Survivors to play for except the hope that maybe you'll be the last man standing and the Killer is gracious enough to give you a shot at finding hatch. So even if you don't get tunnelled out, someone else might and you're still stuck playing out a dead trial with an outcome that's been decided in the first 3 - 5 minutes. Complain about gen rush all you like, but hitting the gens is now the only way to win for Survivors that don't have a spare 2000+ hours to spend watching Mr TatorHead videos and practicing looping. Killer complaints got other alternative strategies like stealth nerfed into the ground.
I think even the most biased Killer main would acknowledge that Killer is by design the easier role to play. It has to be if the 60% kill rate target is to be maintained across the whole Killer roster. Of course, the role gets much harder as you gain more experience and face better opponents but that's true of any game with an MMR system, even one that's as scuffed as DBD's.
The way I see it, you either have a system where everyone queues together but weaker players get more help from the game so they can still have some fun (like in Mario Kart), or you have a much stricter MMR system that measures player skill more accurately, which in the context of DBD probably means that high MMR will be SWFs full of good loopers Vs A-tier Killers and above with very long queue times for skilled players. The community has rejected the first idea, will they like the second idea more? I doubt it, but I guess we'll see…
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@The_Count said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030149#Comment_4030149
EXACTLY!
Hens played with the guys from Korea and said they are pretty good.
"The best anti-tunnel is being good at looping"
About the gen rush… I kinda gave up at this point.
You never see the DEVs address this and to this day you there's still no cap to gen perks and toolboxes on how fast you can complete a gen. Why Hyperfocus + Stakeout is still a thing?!The old "get good" argument. Weird how that never seems to apply to Killers, who should expect to be able to tunnel out the weak link whenever it suits them.
Hens has the takes of a player who has 10,000+ hours in the game, which is probably 10,000 more hours than most people will ever have. He genuinely has some of the worst takes for the health of the game from an average DBD player's point of view. I'd say if BHVR keep listening to highly experienced (and only highly experienced players) like him, they're going to end up with a game that only Hens and his streamer buddies will ever want to play. But I know the game has enough licenses and constant player churn to stay alive indefinitely at this point, so it's a moot point.
I do think if we are to have mixed skill lobbies for the sake of queue times like we do right now, then weaker Survivors need better base-kit defenses against tunnelling and slugging than what we currently have.
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What a nothing update the next patch will be. I'm sure I'd feel something if I hadn't gone way past the point of disappointment already. Needless to say, there's nothing in this update that'll tempt me away from my Killer main era anytime soon. I honestly think it's time to give up on the anti-tunnel and anti-slugging stuff. The fact that they couldn't get even the weakest possible reductions through a PTB like this makes me think anything else we might get in the future wouldn't be worth BHVR's time or effort.
Also a bit gutted I didn't pick up Furtive Chase when I had the chance to in the Shrine last week (I'm saving up for the Naughty Bear Trapper skin). It would have fitted very nicely into my stealth Legion build :(
Oh well.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
Oh I know I will get downvoted for this into oblivion but I must say it.
BHVR and the community need to get their stuff together.
Time after time some changes will be tried by bhvr or demanded by the community. But as soon as something is done a shitstorm of hell is comming up and BHVR scratches the idea of their table.
Let me give you an example:
New Anti Tunnel System: Idea from BHVR give Killer a punishment if someone dies before 6 hooks. Big Part of the Community says these are to many hooks and that 4 would be better. Shitstorm of BHVR holds hand with this or that side escalate and BHVR decides to scratch it completly.
No side will ever be happy with changes. Just look my earlier discussions how to fix tunneling or slugging for the 4k. Nearly no one came up to discuss. Just answers like "well in 1 of 1000 cases it could happen" so the idea should be scrapped.
BHVR needs to man up. Put a change into game and needs to look how it developes. This game had harder times and still survived but we won´t get ahead if we don´t try.
I agree with much of this.
I think they had a clear plan at the start of their quality of life initiative but since then more than half of it has gone in the dustbin because prominent voices in the community dunked all over it. The player base has no patience and because BHVR couldn't do everything that was needed in one patch, many of us could only react to the changes in isolation and gave feedback accordingly. So now we have… Whatever this is because they had to go back to the drawing board more than a few times to rework their ideas (further delaying efforts they might have otherwise put into bug fixes etc).
If much of what they'd planned had gone to live, I think the game might be in a healthier state right now (e.g. haste no longer stacking but individual effects being stronger, stronger anti-tunnel with base-kit gen regression). But I guess now we'll never know. I honestly think BHVR are listening more to the player base (which is good) but also over-correcting a lot of the time (which is bad). They haven't yet found a happy medium between when to listen to feedback and when to stick to their guns, imo.
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My desire to play 2V8 completely evaporated after BHVR removed my favourite Killer, so I guess I'll be extending my break from DBD for a little while longer.
It's fun for what it is, but it's also quite a bit more frustrating than 1V4 at times. I go up against more top tier Killers in a single week of 2V8 than I typically would in a whole month of playing regular DBD (except this time they have even less counter play than usual. The ones that stick to each other like glue to double team with their partner also suck the joy out of the mode).
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
Honestly I feel anyone in console queue should be in their own Matchmaking only joining PC by going out of their way to, but with M+K input thats gone out the window now.
I'd play console a lot more if it was just controller/console players.I've felt for a while now that platforms should track their own specific MMR. I regret linking my Switch to my Steam account because I know I can't maintain the same performance on both platforms. It wasn't worth completely ruining the game on Switch for the sake of shared characters and cosmetics.
It's not the end of the world or anything, because I tend to play on my Switch Lite only when I'm visiting family and it's good to have a way to play the game away from home. When I play on Switch it's without any expectation of doing well because fine movement isn't really possible with those tiny little joy sticks. I tend to have a lot more fun over on Switch when we get locked out off cross play for a time. But maybe they could at least adjust the system to match technically equivalent platforms more often with each other.
All that said, the match making is bad because it's a terrible system that puts shorter queues ahead of all other considerations. Currently, 1V4 in my region has 5 minute queues for Killer and near instant queues for Survivor. There's no way many of those trials are going to be reasonable or fair match ups. I also think you're more likely to encounter a range of skill on console because there are way more console gamers than there are PC ones (though I do think PC gamers are more likely to be more competitive in their mindsets).
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My best guess is a Stranger Things Part 2. I feel like it's now or never for a second chapter and it definitely has enough content for two more Survivors and another map. BHVR's relationship with Netflix also seems to have repaired itself somewhat, plus there are the recent sales and Hawkins Lab changes. Of course it could also be Predator as well, since that neatly lines up with the new film release and Naru and Taabe from Prey would make a good pair of Survivors.
That said, I think there may be an outside chance for it to be Gremlins. One of the few chapters I can think of that can support two Survivors (Billy and Kate), a map (Kingston Falls) and be aiming for a release around about Christmas time. They might want to hold a Gremlins chapter back for when the third movie comes out, though.
But honestly, I really have no idea.
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@Classic_Rando said:
My guess is that the devs realized that no BP bonus no matter how large would help balance the queues. So I suspect they just buffed survivor side more and lowered the max BP bonus. This has felt like the easiest version of 2v8 on the survivor side for me. I’ve escaped most of my matches on the survivor side, and the few killer matches I played were extremely tough as gens were flying left and right.
Actually, I think I can remember they did an experiment on this a couple of 2V8s back but I'm not able to find where they posted the results (maybe someone else on the forum can find them). It was during the infamous bot iteration, I think.
Anyway, the basic take away (if I remember correctly) was that bots and incentives only made a few minutes difference to the queue times. Not even 3x XP made much difference. Double or triple XP is pretty much the only thing that would get me to play 2V8 because I got quite a few cosmetic pieces out of that experiment!
Anyway, you are right. Incentives don't do much to move the needle so playing Survivor while you wait is likely the only solution we're going to get. I think BHVR considers the problem solved.
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I'm not sure 2V8 Survivor will ever be as appealing to players as 2V8 Killer. Even with some new classes added (which they should), 2V8 is still going to feel limited and samey when compared to the 1V4 experience. Certain aspects of 2V8 can be pretty rough to the Survivor side too, with all those giga buffed top tier Killers running around (especially to those of us who prefer a stealthy play style to looping). Play while you wait is a great addition, but for me that only really helps if there's a Killer you want to play in 2V8 and I don't have that anymore. You can't progress your grade in 2V8 or bring offerings either, so there's potentially less BP reward on offer, too.
I'm convinced there's no way to fix the queue times in this mode other than to dramatically increase the player base numbers. But I don't think we'll ever see that happen because BHVR would need to make changes to the game play loop of regular DBD that veteran players and content creators would absolutely hate. DBD is a game that most people enjoy for about 50-100 hours maximum. Most stop playing when they realise there's a massive grind to unlock the best perks and a vertical learning curve to climb before they start to feel even a tiny bit like they're beginning to "get good". So they walk away and play something else because few want to stick around to be a punching bag for 1000+ hours.
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If you're a casual 1V4 player, there's never a better time to boot up a game of Civilization instead of DBD. Just forget about the main mode altogether if you don't want to sweat because all the other casuals will be in 2V8. Normally I'd be joining them, but I'm skipping this one to take a break since my Killer main is in exile.
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What evidence do you have that BHVR have put a limit on the BP multiplier? The most obvious conclusion is that they haven't and there are just more Survivors queuing than usual, so less need for a bonus. But I don't really understand how the bonus is applied, so maybe you know something I don't.
On the other hand, it does seem to me that removing Legion has barely moved the needle on Killer queue times. They look to be the same as they've always been. If Legion's inclusion had made the mode as unpopular with Survivors as reddit/twitter/the forums all claimed, surely we'd see a bigger positive impact on the Killer queue times as more Survivor would now be willing to play it?
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Remove / Delay the unhook notification and punish hard tunnelling with a 25% gen speed bonus.
(By hard tunnelling I mean the typical definition - hooking the same Survivor 3 times in succession, usually at the start of the trial)
I felt these changes would've been the most impactful ones for addressing tunnelling from the last system. Of course the Killer could just proxy their hook, but that would come at the expense of giving up all their map pressure. This would also make tunnelling equally ineffective regardless of the Killer's mobility. Currently, Killers like Billy and Blight can go bother Survivors elsewhere on the map but can always quickly return to tunnel an unhooked Survivor.
Probably wouldn't solve it completely, but I think these changes could make tunnelling a lot more difficult and a lot less rewarding for Killers.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026590#Comment_4026590
Are you excited for the new proposed version of legion for getting the insta downs faster? it sounds fun what they proposed
Nice work with the rates <3Thanks. I have no idea what BHVR are cooking up for them, but if the core of what's fun about them is preserved and I get to run fast and vault over stuff, I'll be happy.
So long as picking them doesn't feel like throwing the game in the lobby for my teammate, I'll be playing Legion no matter what.
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@Rickprado said:
I really would like to see some of those killers you listed on the 2v8. Aside from Twins and Skull Merchant - and maybe Plague -, all of those could really fit 2v8.
Knight is hated because of how strong he was to hold trigens on the 1v4 mode. But he needed perks to do that, what he doesn't have in 2v8. I think Knight will be quite goofy in the 2v8, specially considering how guard hits work. Probably there will be situations where someone take the guard hit completely out of nowhere, as it already happens in the 1v4 matches.
Singularity would be hell on earth, but i believe it would be fun too. And it would be more balanced than in the 1v4 mode because pallet are infinite with scouts, so there won't be a shortage of resources.
Doctor would be quite annoying with 8 survivors screaming. Maybe they could reduce the volume of screams if there is a Doctor in the match.
For Twins, i don't know if they could work on this mode. Victor would be too strong or too weak depending on the changes.
Legion was the best support in 2v8. He was the "Hex Ruin" of this mode, giving the other killer so much pressure with his power that it was the only real slowdown the mode had. My only real problem with Legion was the mending. If they changed the mending to 1s i believe Legion wouldn't be a problem at all in this mode, specially considering how fast Medics can heal the whole team.
Aside from Legion, i believe only Plague could be an issue too, because she would basically completely negate Medics as a class.
I don't have any personal objections to these Killers eventually being in 2V8. I'm just anticipating the likely negative feedback from Survivors that might lead to them being removed.
As for Knight, Survivors already dislike being double teamed by two Killers, adding one of the Knight's ghost buddies into the mix is only likely to cause more frustration. I don't find it very engaging to be chased by an AI NPC that you can't outrun or stun or do much to evade. But we're all different, so maybe most players would be fine with Knight.
A good Singu could lock down an area better than Trapper could ever dream of. They could also use their cameras to tell their KWF duo where Survivors are, which could be problematic.
But yeah, The Legion was a fantastic support Killer. They were decent when matched with anyone, creating easy targets for the high mobility Killers to pick off and buying more time for the weaker Killers to catch up. They were also really good at slowing trials by discouraging Survivors from grouping on gens, something that no Killer in 2V8 is currently able to do. But I'm not sure about your idea of making mending take only a second because some Survivors would probably mend themselves instantly while still in the terror radius. Now the Legion now has another nearby Frenzy target to return to. Survivors should ideally be delaying mending like in 1V4, but you know that's not what a lot of them will be doing.
The biggest problem with Legion (as with Plague) is that they have the potential to annoy the entire lobby by spreading injuries with their power. I think they could possibly rework them to be much stronger in the 1V1, so at least they are just annoying 1 player at a time instead of half the lobby. Unless they nerf them so bad they'd be useless, I'd expect more complaints no matter what BHVR do.
Regardless of how I feel about certain Killers, I think the more choices there are for players to choose from, the better it will be because eventually it won't matter if some are more "annoying" to face than others. Legion are just 1 of 41 Killers in 1V4 but in 2V8 they were 1 of 13. So obviously you'd end up facing them more often than usual. It also doesn't help that the other support Killers are so bad. Wraith is fine, but Trapper, Ghostie and Deathslinger could probably use some buffs. That might encourage more diversity and attract some players away from playing Legion.
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I've made my feelings on down votes clear but it looks like they're here to stay, so I'm kinda over it at this point.
What I really don't like is how people can ratio a topic into oblivion by down voting it to the point that it never gets bumped up again. The discussion gets quickly buried, which seems like a counterproductive feature to have on a discussion forum to me.
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I've already posted mine elsewhere but I'll post them here again anyway.
I can only share my stats from previous iterations since the stabby crew got benched, I won't be playing this one much. I'm only playing to complete enough quests to earn the Dracula charm.
Overall, 2V8 is the most balanced of all modes for me personally. My all time Kill (60.34%) and Escape (41.15%) rates are almost exactly what they should be.
This iteration, I've played only one Killer game (Billy with a Dracula partner. We won with a 7K). I've played 13 Survivor matches with 6 escapes so far (46.15%). So not wildly different to previous iterations, though obviously not a big sample size. I think they would probably end up more or less the same as in previous 2V8s if I did continue to play.
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I'd personally like an end game perk that's similar to Alucard's Shield (Dracula Add-on), except instead of continuously spawning pillars of fire in the exit gates, it would spawn entity claws with a chance to injure any Survivors that want to stick around to teabag. I would honestly run that perk on every Killer I enjoy playing but I'm very bad with.
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@Philscooper said:
i would love for them to stop adding killers and add classes instead for both sides.
Yeah, some new classes would be very welcome. Plenty of people on the forums have been asking for new classes for quite a while now (at least a year).
Let's be real though, I think new Killers are being added for business reasons and to sell more content. I'm sure it's the main reason they added Legion alongside Wesker and Nemi with the Resident Evil themed event (and Blight in the iteration before that). I noticed they're still trying to sell us the Robbie The Rabbit Legion cosmetics in the Konami 2V8 store. Thanks BHVR, but I think I'll pass.
So yeah, they will no doubt continue to focus on adding more Killers.
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@etisatis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026065#Comment_4026065
Legion is basically a mosquito — annoying, not dangerous. Survivors would rather deal with slower gens than spend half a match mending. The Oni + Legion synergy in 2v8 isn’t “fun,” it’s a glaring flaw. If your idea of fun is just irritating people, maybe take a break. Complaining that survivors will always hate a killer doesn’t kill the mode — it just proves your obsession with being annoying.
I play Legion because they are fun. I know that's difficult to grasp but yes, they are fun to play in 2V8. It's not my intent to annoy anyone. Just like it's not a Wesker's intent to annoy me with his triple dash or a Spirit's intent to annoy me with her total lack of any counter play if you don't like to play wearing headphones. When I face these Killers, I'm definitely not having a good time but I'm not here asking for them to be removed.
I don't find Legion annoying to face in 2V8 (or elsewhere) and mending is nothing more than a mild inconvenience to me. I've also played 435 2V8 matches as Survivor compared to only 29 Killer matches, so if you think I'm just some salty Killer main you are very wrong.
Never got matched with an Oni once, btw. This is a KWF problem and easily solved by making sure these two Killers cannot match together if players queue up as a duo.
Way ahead of you with taking a break, though. Probably won't be playing DBD for at least another 3 weeks (or for however long this 2V8 lasts).
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I'd like them to be more accurate for sure. Yes, perhaps the stats are not 100% correct but that doesn't mean they're entirely wide of the mark.
I still found it interesting to see how the different modes stacked up against each other and to see whether the stats confirmed or challenged my own impressions. My personal findings being that 2V8 is basically fine as it is (though obviously not for me with Legion's absence), Survivors could use some more help in Chaos Shuffle and Lights Out should never, ever come back.
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I only queued up for 2V8 Survivor for something to do while waiting to play Legion, so I don't have a horse in this race anymore.
But can we maybe stop trying to get all the fun but broken things removed from the mode that's all about playing with fun but broken things? Thanks.
