thesuicidefox
thesuicidefox
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/188306/the-real-reason-you-hate-spirit
Its a bit more complicated than that. Mix up character tend to be you need to block low/high or tech a grab. Thats usually 4 maybe 5 options mith multiple counters. You can also see the animation and react accordingly in a fighter
A game like dbd has way too many variables for that. It's more akin to a mix up character that just vanishes at the start of an animation and you have to guess low/high/tech with no indication.
There is no "read" with Spirit because she's completely invisible and chase music often overrides her footsteps noise.
"Thats usually 4 maybe 5 options mith multiple counters."
This is exactly what it's like with Spirit. At any given point she has 3-5 valid options to catch you. If you pick the option that counters the most of her options at once (eg. the safe option) you have a high chance to escape. But then if it's later in the game you might expect her to try a different option, in which case you take more of a risk to pick this other option that less safe but more rewarding if you pull it off.
The parallels are very clear here.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1594762#Comment_1594762
Ok so you agree there isnt a way to actually escape her. You basically are saying just try your best to waste time because you WILL get downed. Ok thanks. And no her footsteps are audible when its too late without deadhard or a pallet or window to save you and that requires a VERY good headset. I use a turtle beach and I have NEVER heard her footsteps but I can hear survivors
No there is a way to escape her, just nothing is ever guaranteed. Is it this hard to understand?
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1594756#Comment_1594756
Bro he played blendette versus vizxion spirit in the tourny and if he provides videos the spirits are noticeably bad. Just guess better lol.
Again he got ran for most of the game by 1 person. Doesn't matter who I was he never even had a chance to chase me.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1594746#Comment_1594746
She can HEAR you your choice does not matter if she can HEAR you choose it.
Her footsteps are very audible and clearly directional within a certain range.
Also you don't need to know anything about what she is doing. Imagine yourself just in the game by yourself no killer. You just run the path(s) that are most likely to avoid her, as she can only phase a certain distance for a certain time you can play to always maximize that distance/time no matter what path she takes.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1594729#Comment_1594729
You could say that but this game is not the same because preemptively doing something against a person who can hear you at all times and then just avoid it is way worse. Imagine going against a spammer who is bad at mortal Kombat. So you block until they are open since they arent actually good. And THEN they hack and they can go through your blocks. That's what spirit is if she is good your input doesn't matter
You still miss the comparison.
Spirit requires you to read and predict.
Mix up characters require you to read and predict.
There is nothing here about hacking or spamming fireballs.
Spirit can only be doing so much, the fact you can't see her or know exactly what she's doing shouldn't matter. If there are only 2 paths she can take to reach your location and you take this 3rd path away from her then you just beat every option she had at the same time. She is not infallible.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/188306/the-real-reason-you-hate-spirit
This is a dumb thread. You cant block or dodge spirit. I hate her because when I slow vault or pre drop pallets she ALWAYS knows where im at and that means of I try and get away it doesnt work she will go around the window if she hears me. You have to pray she doesnt have a headset if you want to win against a good spirit. Don't compare it to a fighting game where every character can be wrecked by skill.
You misunderstand.
The "block and dodge" of a mix up character is the fact you have to preemptively do the input. In other words, you have to read your opponent and predict what they are going to do. This is exactly what you have to do against Spirit, therefore one could say that Spirit is the DBD version of a fighting game mix up character.
Also if slow vaulting and pre-dropping pallets hasn't worked for you, why do you still do it? Have you tried running tiles, or using windows to force 50/50's thus putting her in a position to potentially mess up? Sorry it just doesn't make sense why you would be mad something doesn't work every time, well maybe stop trying to do that thing. It's like complaining that you can't Urban Evade through corn against every killer. Some killers have good eyes, try something else.
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This post is in the top 1% and I can't view it.
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Baby Stabbers
EDIT: Here are some team names from the tournament I'm in now...
- Ankle Breakers
- Gen Humping Bubba’s
- Toxic Survivors
- Team Boosted (my team)
- Loops Til Daylight
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I have like 50 Mother Daughter Rings on Spirit and I both use them on a somewhat regular basis and don't dump all my BP into Spirit.
Umbra has like 1200 Iri Heads on Huntress.
This doesn't seem unreasonable if he dumps all his BP into Hag.
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BBQ, Pop, Corrupt, Sloppy
Pretty much every killer ever. Sub 1 perk for something else.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1592004#Comment_1592004
Ok but the math you are speaking of has no variables it's off of base kit spirit and no spirit runs base kit.
holding w when she is 10m away is another guess if shes basekit and not running speed add ons. The high chance is actually low.
Bro I just listed all the min/max values for her power.
Hold W when she is 10m gives you a greater than 90% chance to avoid getting hit. Of ######### course it's not guaranteed, but that's what you want isn't it? A guaranteed way to escape her? It doesn't work like that.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1591931#Comment_1591931
Math can be wrong if you arent accurate with the calculations. I never said that. People care about a tell because there isnt many situations where she can not hit you 100%
You are assuming shes waiting a long time to phase and once again you have to guess shes waiting. Standing still defeats the math because it applies to phasing which you have to guess whether she is doing it or not if shes doing it then you apply the math.
There are fields of math that deal with unknown variables.
Saying math can be wrong just proves you don't understand what you are talking about. Hold W if you are more than 10m from her and you have a HIGH CHANCE to avoid getting hit out of phase because she can't catch up to you before it ends.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1591881#Comment_1591881
Still let's say you do get the math down and now you have made some rough but pretty good calculations. The numbers dont matrer when everything the spirit does has no tell. For you to put these numbers into use you would have to guess when she is phasing!
If you cant tell when she starts her phase your numbers will be off and you will he going off false info. Now you are in a bad position because you went off rough numbers then made calculations based on false info.
Dude the math doesn't lie. You can just run forward and have a like 95% to not get hit. Who TF cares about a tell when no matter what she does she can't hit you?
If she waits to phase you just get more distance on her. Not sure how you think her standing still somehow defeats the math.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1591853#Comment_1591853
The only math you can use is after noticing what addons she has or what she roughly has. If she has let's say recovery add ons it not only makes her stand still mindgame more prevalent but puts you in a bad situation more.
The only way you can truly limit her options is at a window where it isnl a true 50/50 if you are not injured. Red stain mindgames arent bad you have access to the killers previous moves, where they were before the mindgame started and your position, a pallet for example. With spirit you have virtually no info except where you are.
Base charge = 1.5s
Stacked charge = 1s
Base movement speed = 7m/s
Stacked movements speed = 9m/s
Base duration = 5s
Stacked duration = 10s
Base max distance = 35m
Absolute max distance (MDR + Amulet) = 70m
She can only have 2 add-ons at a time. So unless she has MDR/Amulet combo, you can reliably figure out the math give or take a few m or s depending on what you are calculating.
If she has MDR/Amulet combo then she can't see scratch marks so use that to your advantage.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1591841#Comment_1591841
I've played every killer otnunderstand the killer side and how they preform yes I've played stridor spirit. Yes stridor does turn iron will 3 into 1 but if you plah enough stridor spirit you will learn the audio and how far and close.
Iron will 1 is still quite loud you can definitely hear farther than 8 meters. Without iron will like I said you have to just use the perk and learn the distances. Anyone who is new to stridor will be confused but after maybe a week or 2 they will catch on.
The best spirits can and will pinpoint your location.
Then you use math and logic to dictate where to run such that she can't catch you in phase no matter what she does, or such that her options are so severely limited that she just gives up on you. Yes you may need to take a 50/50 at a window, but tell me how that's any different than a red stain mindgame?
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1591786#Comment_1591786
Ok so now you are at a time even with windows and you are injured a spirit can pi point your location. Windows though yes they help you more than any other obstacle. Anyways back to the numbers I suppose they are good to have but once that distance Is closed and you are now near her using the power becomes even more deadly.
Now that that 10m becomes 2 there isnt much room for you to "put her into position to make mistakes" it now becomes a guessing game. Guess if shes phasing, guess which direction, etc.
"Ok so now you are at a time even with windows and you are injured a spirit can pi point your location."
Have you ever played Spirit with Stridor? It doesn't work like you think.
Stridor counters Iron Will. What it does is turn Iron Will 3 into Iron Will 1 basically. So they are STILL quieter but not totally quiet. All that means is you can't hide in plain sight while injured because she might be able to hear you if you are REALLY close (like 8m).
Now if you DO NOT have Iron Will, Stridor just makes you loud AF. She will be able to track you from a distance, like 16m maybe, but as she gets closer you get so loud it's actually not that easy to "pinpoint their location". It has a sweet spot where you can tell distance and direction but at the end of the day Stridor doesn't make Spirit completely unbeatable. It just soft counters the perk that best counters her power. But it comes at the cost of it being a bit harder to track normal survivors at close range.
Also that's not how math works. If you just hold W and run in a straight line, at a 10m head start with no add-ons SHE CANNOT CATCH UP TO YOU. Maybe she can get a hit if she goes for a long lunge and you have nothing around you, but if you can't reach a safe window in 35m then how do you even play survivor against a normal killer?
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1591758#Comment_1591758
I agree with you its dumb as hell to run back into anspirit and survivors do mistakes but they can just react to what you do. If they run phase towards them. They stay phase towards them. As long as you watch what they do then adjust accordingly it's pretty hard to not get a hit as spirit.
Again, windows. It takes 1.5 seconds to start a phase at base, 1s with stacked add-ons. So if she's not directly behind you then she is phasing, and you got a 4m headstart. You run at 4m/s she moves at 7m/s base, fastest 9m/s. If you are 10m apart it would take her between 5s and 6.5s to catch up (when you calculate the initial distance, the extra distance gained while she starts phasing, and your velocities over time, also it accounts for every possible add-on combination). So, on average, I'd say you have 6 seconds to get to a tile if you are 10m away. The more initial distance the more time you have (and the less likely she can catch you in a phase because the base distance is abut 35m, which is about how far she would have to go with a 10m initial distance).
Do math and she's not infallible. She only has a limited set of options and he phase only lasts 5 seconds at base.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1591724#Comment_1591724
A good stridor spirit is near unbeatable. I didnt watch the game so I dont know much details he was pretty upset because you guys are good at holding rb. He did pick her up about 2 weeks before that game as easy as the blueberry is she has a skill cap not a very big one though.
Not saying hes a bad spirit but he also isnt the best. My friend was out of town and our killer main isnt that good with spirit. Then the rest of us dont like her I can play spirit but I dont play her often so I'd have to put more time into her. I'm not making any ######### up I'm telling you the stuff ik and how I felel.about the killer.
Yeah hiding is technically valid counterplay but we are talking about chase counterplay. I've been watching dowsey play spirit and you cant tell me there is a way for survivors to counter that.
I've watched Dowsey and he is really good but survivors still do massively stupid ######### in his games. Like who in their right mind waits at a pallet for a Spirit?!? Really it's astounding. Just hold forward and run tiles, use windows, don't ever run back into the husk. Just do these 3 things I promise you will see yourself improve against Spirit.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1591696#Comment_1591696
Nothing you say makes sense at all.
"When I see someone get hooked across the map, and then she pops up from phase near me that means she has 0 power. At best, she gets it back in 12 seconds if she has stacked cooldown. Most likely its 15 seconds. Either way, I have 10 seconds to loop or run to a safe tile. If it's something like a long wall jungle gym I can use the window to avoid her phasing. There is no guesswork here, I KNOW what she can and cannot do."
This is funny to me because you're assuming she'll only ever stand still if she's recently used her power, if she hasn't recently used it and she's standing still guess what, you're guessing, good luck countering this with "count to 12" because you'll never know, by the way, watch the video, she had 0 charge addons and was only a second or two away from having her power, the survivor has no idea if she has charged addons, had she had charge addons her power would have very well been back.
"Easy, pretend like she is doing both and play to that. You will see opportunities to escape that would beat both tactics at the same time, making her actions moot and removing any guesswork on your end. Generally speaking, the safest absolute option is windows. LT tiles are actually really great against her if you know how to run them in unusual patterns to bait her to go around or wait for a vault."
... Pretend ... she ... is ... doing ... both? That's called guessing what she's doing, and guessing what you should do, that's not a counter, guessing is not a counter, how does pretending she's doing both do anything? It means you can't vault because she might be faking, and it means you can't run away and make noise because she might actually be phasing, so you're guessing, lmfao.
"If you don't have a problem with DS then why even bring it up? You are literally comparing counting to 60 in your head with counting to 12 in your head. Same [BAD WORD] thing. Like really what is your point here? I never complained about DS, you brought it up as a comparison, then backpedal to say "oh I don't have a problem with it I'm comparing you to these people even though you don't even share the same opinions". Really what is your point here except to try and put yourself above someone else like some kind of snarky elitist?"
"Like some snarky elitist" - did you not literally imply I couldn't count to 60 in your response before this? You're the one being snarky.
"This is funny to me because you're assuming she'll only ever stand still if she's recently used her power, if she hasn't recently used it and she's standing still guess what, you're guessing, good luck countering this with "count to 12" because you'll never know, by the way, watch the video, she had 0 charge addons and was only a second or two away from having her power, the survivor has no idea if she has charged addons, had she had charge addons her power would have very well been back."
If she hasn't used it recently then I know she's phasing, but as a precaution I run away from the husk. BOOM you beat both options without guessing. You just play to both. Not sure how it is this difficult to understand.
"... Pretend ... she ... is ... doing ... both? That's called guessing what she's doing"
No it's not. You are playing to beat both options at once. Guessing would be assuming she is doing one or the other and the trying to beat that.
Let's say you took my cell phone from me and put in one of your front pockets, then say to me "guess which pocket it is in and you get it back". Then instead of picking a pocket, I just punch you in the mouth and rip your pants off to get my phone back. That's basically what I'm talking about. Don't play into her game, know what she can and cannot do and play to as many options as possible when you are running.
""Like some snarky elitist" - did you not literally imply I couldn't count to 60 in your response before this? You're the one being snarky."
Bro you brought it up then tried to someone compare me to those players. Like you're trying to gaslight.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1591600#Comment_1591600
You ran to the pallet where she would show up even though you claim you "read" her and knew where she would be. Running left would of had you avoid the encounter overall. Yes you were gonna escape 100% she was not a good spirit you can. Ot deny that.
You can make a bad stridor spirit mess up but any good one will pinpoint your location. Our spirit player I did jb t watch the game all I know was he lost you never was in a chase you hid the whole game from his words and apparently yours now. You have no say in that. He picked up spirit 2 weeks ago if you would verse my feiendnwho has played spirit since release it would be a different story.
You can bot outplay a spirit your input does not matter if you so somehow "outplay" her it's her fault. You have no info nor what you do will change what the spirit does. They can watch you then phase. Yeah it's usually a bad spirit if you can "outplay" them. You arent a very good survivor either based on your movement and how you play the game well atleast what I watched you will get destroyed by a good spirit.
But he had Stridor, that should make him unbeatable in a chase? How long did he chase Cesar? Like half the game. No Iron Will. But yea you can't run from a Spirit.
You are always moving the goalpost. Suddenly he is a bad Spirit that just picked her up 2 weeks earlier. Then why not have your more experienced killer play then? Sorry this just doesn't make sense to me at all, seems like you are just kinda making ######### up to avoid admitting that a Spirit got outplayed.
I hid from her because that is the best counter play. You can't die if she never hits you, and she can't hit you if she never finds you. Not to mention I didn't really even try to hide that much, she just chased my team for the whole game and then gens were done so we bailed. She saw me make the save at the end and that was pretty much it.
"You ran to the pallet where she would show up even though you claim you "read" her and knew where she would be. Running left would of had you avoid the encounter overall. "
I mean, a read doesn't have to be anything complicated. All it means is you know what your opponent is going to do. I knew what direction she was coming, how fast she would get there, and I had a plan where to run. What else do you need to see it was me reading her. No guesswork, I knew she saw the door stop, I knew she was going to follow me because I was running and injured. I knew all this and I was right. What I didn't read was Bill, but reading other survivors in the presence of a Spirit is damn near impossible because Spirit's TR turns survivors stupid.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1591644#Comment_1591644
"I reliably predict" So you guess when her ability is back, but don't ever actually know whether it is or not.
"If you are guessing against spirit you already lost" When you're at a pallet on a loop you're guessing immediately as to whether she is standing still or not, please tell me the appropriate counter to this, i'd love to hear your big brain theory
"And you can easily track DS. I do it regularly, it's not hard. Please don't assume that because you can't count to 60 in your head that means someone else can't" What? I think DS is perfectly fine, I have no issues going against it as killer, maybe re-read what I put "Kind of like killers who constantly complain about" didn't once mention myself.
Keep up the guess work :)
""I reliably predict" So you guess when her ability is back, but don't ever actually know whether it is or not."
No. A guess is doing something without any information and hoping it works. A prediction is based on information.
When I see someone get hooked across the map, and then she pops up from phase near me that means she has 0 power. At best, she gets it back in 12 seconds if she has stacked cooldown. Most likely its 15 seconds. Either way, I have 10 seconds to loop or run to a safe tile. If it's something like a long wall jungle gym I can use the window to avoid her phasing. There is no guesswork here, I KNOW what she can and cannot do.
"When you're at a pallet on a loop you're guessing immediately as to whether she is standing still or not, please tell me the appropriate counter to this"
Easy, pretend like she is doing both and play to that. You will see opportunities to escape that would beat both tactics at the same time, making her actions moot and removing any guesswork on your end. Generally speaking, the safest absolute option is windows. LT tiles are actually really great against her if you know how to run them in unusual patterns to bait her to go around or wait for a vault.
If you don't have a problem with DS then why even bring it up? You are literally comparing counting to 60 in your head with counting to 12 in your head. Same ######### thing. Like really what is your point here? I never complained about DS, you brought it up as a comparison, then backpedal to say "oh I don't have a problem with it I'm comparing you to these people even though you don't even share the same opinions". Really what is your point here except to try and put yourself above someone else like some kind of snarky elitist?
PS. "Guessing" against a Spirit is no more guesswork than countering a Clown moonwalk at a tile. You don't see the red stain on either side, mostly likely that means they are moonwalking, well which side can the get you with a moonwalk you run to the other side. Works 98% of the time. That's basically how you play against Spirit. You track what she is doing, you understand what she CAN and CANNOT do in any given situation, you run to safe windows, YOU DO NOT DO STUPID ######### like in the OP's video, and you will run most Spirit's very easily on most tiles. And like I said before no one plays perfect, so yea I mess up and get caught but it's usually something I should have know or because I tried to do something cheeky like the OP's video (not that stupid but still). Or I just got outplayed, or it was just inevitable I was going down. It happens against every killer, why Spirit is a problem though is beyond me.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1591604#Comment_1591604
No, that was guessing, you have no idea if she has recovery addons on or not, expecting survivors to know the exact times on an ability recovery and speed with 0 indication on what the killer is running is ridiculous.
Kind of like killers who constantly complain about not knowing how long DS has left survivors are apparently supposed to know how long an ability has left to recover when it has things that can affect it's recovery speed.
100% guessing and you know it, also "just run to the house" like yea because the spirit wouldn't have caught up with her by then without her power.
Recovery add-ons don't give her power back that fast. It would still be on cooldown. And no it's not hard, I reliably predict when a Spirit is phasing or not because I know she doesn't have her power. If I'm not sure, I just assume she is phasing and play to that. But I definitely don't run back to the husk, that's like the dumbest thing you can do here. Literally the dumbest move. In no world is this a smart decision.
If you are guessing against Spirit you already lost. There is only so many things she can do to catch you in this situation. In this video, the ONLY option the Spirit would have to catch her is to just follow her in phase. All she had to do was act like she was phasing behind her and run to 2 story on her right and her chances of surviving just went up dramatically. If she was faking (which she was) then that just buys you more time to make it there.
And you can easily track DS. I do it regularly, it's not hard. Please don't assume that because you can't count to 60 in your head that means someone else can't.
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@Seanzu said:
I don't understand the video...
Cheryl had to guess whether she was phasing or not and GUESSED incorrectly, in this instance, it isn't counter play.
There is no guess.
His power is barely 2/3 recovered. If she was paying attention to her phase she would know this and know she is faking it. Besides the fact that she ran DIRECTLY TO HER. You don't need to guess in this situation. All you need is to pay attention to the game and use some logic. She had 2 story next to her, that building is strong against Spirit, and she could have easily made it to at least the pallet at the front door (IDK if it was still up but still).
Running headfirst back into the killer is the purest example of a player that just has no ######### clue how to play against Spirit, which is like 95% of the survivor population, INCLUDING many streamers and forumers. Spirit literally turns survivors into potatoes.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590503#Comment_1590503
On your first video you literally ran to her direction and if she hadn't been so far away would of phased on you. Also before I go on I'm gonna say both spirits were clearly not the most experienced. Anyways then you sandbag the bill and have him eat the noed.
Speed add ons dont make her arrive at 3.5 seconds it has to be lower especially considering the amulet makes you 276% movement speed I believe so the numbers are less. You also are guessingnif she is base spirit and then guessing you have about 3 seconds.
You cant really put them in a position to make mistakes when with stridor you can pinpoint locations.
I ran to the only pallet near me and I broke from the door when I knew she wasn't that close to me. Look where she comes out of phase she was right behind me meaning I knew exactly where she was because that's where I expected her to show up. Bill was unlucky, I didn't know he was there, but again that was a GOD PALLET because it was one of those rare ones that spawn in a corner and there is only 1 way around it. If Bill wasn't there, I simply pre-drop that, she comes out of phase on the other side, is forced to break it and chase at 110 for 15 seconds, and I had shack pallet and the door was just past it and the docks. I was escaping 100% even if Bill was not there.
Also yes, you can make a Stridor Spirit mess up didn't we run your Spirit player in the tournament and she has Stridor? None of us had Iron Will that should have been easy for her to catch us then, but she got like 2 hooks IIRC. She never even found me because I just played safe and hid from her (ez as Blendette but still).
Again being dismissive because "Spirit bad" or...or...OR... maybe the Spirit wasn't bad and I just outplayed her. It's insane how much you guys avoid admitting the truth that she has counterplay and will find any excuse to dismiss any sort of evidence showing that. It's always "Spirit bad" or "Spirit messed up" or "you got lucky" or some other kind of BS. Yep definitely one of those and NOT the Spirit just getting outplayed, plain and simple.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590503#Comment_1590503
There is obviously no proof and there will never be any proof that you can outplay a Spirit. Your video is actually a prime example about those "proofs" that are nothing but a row of mistakes done by the killer. You simple dont understand that you never outplayed her, she was just doing mistakes. We end the discussion here because it is not leading anywhere.
Thanks for your time tho.
"She is doing mistakes" could apply to any situation. It's like saying "the guy playing Ryu only gets hit because he messed up, the Ken did nothing to put him in a position to mess up nor was he in a position to take advantage of him messing up, it was just Ryu messed up and Ken was lucky". This is literally your argument.
What is so hard to accept about someone being able to read the other player and predict them accurately?
What is so hard to accept about doing something to make the other player mess up and then taking advantage?
You're entire argument is an implication I did absolutely nothing in this clips except run forward. So then of ######### course you will never admit there is proof of Spirit counter play so that you don't have to be bother to learn to play against her. "Oh yea there's nothing I can do she has all the control in the chase" that's kinda bull ######### right there. She has more control than most killers, but she's not in complete control. Not unless you give her that control, which is seems like you do and maybe that's why you have a problem with her.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590460#Comment_1590460
I mean, i doubt you believe yourself what you write there but thats fine.
I am the one who wants to be right? Read our discussion again. "I OUTPLAYED HER. End of story." Which is pretty much everything you say over and over again even i dead obvious prove you wrong.
A final step by step food of thougts for you:
- Do you outplay a PERFECT Spirit? No you dont.
- Why not? Because she is not doing any mistakes.
- So how do i outplay a Spirit then? She has to do mistakes.
She.has.to.do.mistakes.
"I mean, i doubt you believe yourself what you write there but thats fine."
OMG
Wow.
Just wow.
Bro. It's over. There is proof of people outplaying Spirit.
Also none of what I did in the first video was a guess. I KNEW she was phasing to me. I KNEW what direction she was coming from. I KNEW about how far she was based on the time I heard the phase (base speed is 7m/s so at 24m woosh gives you about 3.5 seconds to react, 3 if she has speed add-ons). I was reading her. Nothing was a guess. Remember I got iri Unbroken and ir Evader. I ran her all game and then managed to avoid her at the gate. Obv poor bill ate the NOED, but had he not been there her chances to catch me were slim since I just dropped what is basically a god pallet on my way to shack pallet while she has 0 phase and the gate was in that direction too. I was 100% escaping that game.
"She.has.to.do.mistakes."
Which. You. Can. Put. Her. In. A. Position. To. Do. Consistently.
Like really how hard is it to admit that something I did lead to her making a mistake. You know that's actually a thing right? To get the other player to mess up.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590443#Comment_1590443
Instead of your rant, you could actually read what i wrote for you and try to understand it a little bit.
If you think you outplayed her... again... give us a time where this outplay occure. Those window "mindgames" are no outplays by the way, she can still hear it and see your scratchmakes fading. All she has to do is listen.
I honestly don't care to read anything you write because it's the same garble parroted over and over again.
You don't care to have a discussion you just want to be right, even in the facing of damning evidence to the contrary.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590411#Comment_1590411
I can not show you proof that i play 100% perfect, because i dont. Nobody does that. Now please read this carefully, because if you understand it, we might not have to talk about this subject ever again ;)
Seriously, nitpicking everything she did from my perspective instead of just acknowledging that maybe [BAD WORD] MAYBE Spirit actually has counterplay. The logical fallacies are mindboggling at this point.
Relying on someones mistake is not counterplay! It is just relying on someones mistake. You even say it yourself. With your example you just say "she did mistakes, so i have counterplay" but again that has nothing to do with counterplay. You are simply relying on her mistakes. But relying on mistakes can not be counterplay for the side who has to hope the other side does those mistakes. Because, and now this is key - the survivor side in our spirit example has NO inpact if the other side is doing the mistake or not.
But yea I guess anytime anyone shows a video of them outplaying a Spirit you will find a way to dismiss it because "no counterplay" LMAO Right yes, of course, literally nothing I did influenced her to make a mistake. She just did that on her own while I ran looking up with both my thumbs up my own ass. OMG
This paragraph showcases how completly different we understand the term counterplay.
"I can not show you proof that i play 100% perfect, because i dont. Nobody does that. "
Then stop nitpicking the killer's mistakes. People ######### up. Sometimes what someone else does ######### you up. You seriously can't sit there and tell me that I did absolutely nothing in those videos to avoid getting caught and that it was all just her ######### up.
I OUTPLAYED HER. End of story.
"This paragraph showcases how completly different we understand the term counterplay."
Yea, because if you can obviously outplay the other player there has to be some kind of counter play going on. The fact you and other continuously dismiss literally EVERY piece of evidence showing Spirit can be outplayed for any reason under the sun, expecting killers to play perfectly (which you are don't try to say you're not, otherwise you wouldn't nitpick like you do), just kinda shows none of you care about counter play. You just don't like Spirit. Which is fine, but don't sell ######### opinions as facts.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590344#Comment_1590344
Excuse me? "dismissing because killer not good" argument? I did not say that, maybe you were the better player, but how about we go together through the second clip:
00:17 I dont even know whats happening there, she simply lost you somehow for a short period of time so you could make it to the pallet. You did not outplay, she outplayed herself.
00:21 She is apparently phasewalking ... strange play. Maybe she was assuming you stay at the pallet. At least she could have forced you to the other side of the pallet. However, mistake by her. You jump down and then walk to the window. She should be able to hear your steps and you vautling the window. Mistake by her.
00:46 We are at the same situation again, she finally kicks the pallet. I have no idea what she was even doing during those last 20 seconds. I guess jumping down was 2 much of a mindgame.
00:57 You are trying a random mindgame. Why she is not listending to you movement? Instead she is using her power to do whatever she is doing there. Another dead obvious mistake.
01:14 She completly lost you.
I and probably everyone else who is trying to stay objective here will agree that she outplayed herself all the time and you did nothing special which she could not have used against you. Maybe you give us your POV about this situation.
And about the first clip lol.... You knew that she was coming? You saw it on your Spine Chill. The next Spirit is not looking in your direction because she is assuming you have Spine Chill and you go down because of that. Or she is antizipating you run to the pallet. Outplayed i guess...
SHOW ME PROOF YOU PLAY 100% PERFECTLY ALL THE TIME.
Seriously, nitpicking everything she did from my perspective instead of just acknowledging that maybe ######### MAYBE Spirit actually has counterplay. The logical fallacies are mindboggling at this point.
But yea I guess anytime anyone shows a video of them outplaying a Spirit you will find a way to dismiss it because "no counterplay" LMAO Right yes, of course, literally nothing I did influenced her to make a mistake. She just did that on her own while I ran looking up with both my thumbs up my own ass. OMG
Seriously it's old at this point.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590231#Comment_1590231
First clip: Nothing happens. Everyone escapes. So?
Second clip: Everybody is dead, Spirit does a series of quite funny mistakes and the survivor escapes because of that. 🤔
Should they proof something or what is the purpose? I could also post 2 random clips where i escape a Spirit. Do they mean i beat Spirit? Of course not, i simply beat the player, or even better said, he beat himself.
Ah the 'ol "dismissing because killer not good" argument.
This place is a serious echo chamber. Come up with something new please.
Also in the first clip she was phasing to me at the door, I knew this and went for the pallet. Bill just happened to be there but i was going to drop the pallet and run to shack. She had to break that pallet because it was a corner pallet and she wouldn't be able to phase after me (plus she JUST used her phase). Then I got on the door and opened in despite her NOED and phasing to me.
It's proof that you can read a Spirit even if you can't see her.
EDIT: Also notice how I had both iri Unbroken and iri Evader. I ran this Spirit all game and escaped without ever getting caught.
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@HuntressGurl103 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590305#Comment_1590305
Scott Jund brings a lot of valid arguments of why spirit is bad, if that isn't a proof for you, then sorry, you dont really understand it. A guy that plays this for a living shouldn't be take as a relevant opinion, k. kekw
Just because he plays on Twitch does not make him right about everything. I know pro players in some games and they had basically 0 understanding of the game's from a design perspective. This video is his OPINION nothing more.
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@HuntressGurl103 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590267#Comment_1590267
"post a video of a guy talking about the game as proof"
A guy that has more game knowledge than you and me, a guy that play this game for a living and could beat the depip squad in 2018 when the game was clearly survivor sided.
But yeah, he is just a guy that's you like me, average.
"Where is your proof that Spirit has no counterplay then?"
You can clearly see my channel to see my arguments.
"Who TF cares about SWF comms?"
I was using a example, by using your logic, seems you dont like using your brain, smh.
"It's funny how you ask for proof of something, we give it to you, you dismiss it"
Cherry picked clips are not proof, I repeat. As I said by using your logic of cherry picked "proof" everything is fine in the game then, nothing is unbalanced cause I could win against it.
See how stupid that sounds?
If you really think a 59s clip of you escaping against a spirit is a "proof", then sorry m8 but you're baiting at this point.
U know what's a real proof? A stream, a discussion vid, a lot of vid... not a 59s clip.
"A discussion video is proof"
That's not how this works.
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@HuntressGurl103 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590245#Comment_1590245
I didn't ask for a vid of you, lmao but nice try tho.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QlJ6nlKp5A
I played against a swf squad, and win, guess SWF on comms is perfectly fine now, right? Hope to never see you complaining about SWF
Where is your proof that Spirit has no counterplay then? Who TF cares about SWF comms? I play on Xbox that's all there is, THAT IS LIFE. I play a 4 man SWF all day every day.
It's funny how you ask for proof of something, we give it to you, you dismiss it, post a video of a guy talking about the game as proof, then try to compare it to something completely unrelated.
Stick to the facts ma'am.
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@HuntressGurl103 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590237#Comment_1590237
I dont know why people keep claiming 59 seconds clips as "spirit is balanced" lol.
We dont actually know how she played
We dont know if it was a SWF on comms
Why tf was she using such a trash build like that? You will never see that against a rank 1 smart spirit...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4bsPIdct_Q
This is a real example of why you think X is unbalanced.
We give you clips.
"NOT PROOF REEEE"
Proceeds to post a video of Scott Jund just talking about the game. No proof though...
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@HuntressGurl103 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590231#Comment_1590231
Can I post a SWF on comms cherry - picked clip of me 4k'ing against them and claim that it is perfecty fine? (Using your logic)
LOL
Askes for proof.
"Cherry picked".
You asked for a video I gave it to you. Enjoy.
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@HuntressGurl103 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590195#Comment_1590195
Im asking for proof that he plays good against spirit, he's always saying "most of the time I escape against spirit"
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1583528#Comment_1583528
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577281#Comment_1577281
He's always posting left and right he plays perfectly fine against spirit, yet he nevers links a proof about it...
Even tho we can see his killer bias from milles aways.
thesuicidefox playing Dead by Daylight: Special Edition at XboxClips.cothesuicidefox playing Dead by Daylight: Special Edition at XboxClips.coFirst one is pre-Prayer Bead nerf but
EDIT: Also the first notice I have iri Unbroken meaning I was never caught, AND all 4 survivors got out if you watch to the end my friend saved Bill and then hatched.
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@HuntressGurl103 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1590183#Comment_1590183
Sorry m8, but why should we exactly trust what you're saying is true? You need a proof or it didn't happen, this is internet, im sorry.
"Give me proof something never happened"
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They should not touch anything about Huntress base kit. She is totally fine. Perfect with no add-ons.
Just rework Iri Head and adjust her add-ons so she matches the norm. Here's what I would do...
- Amanita Toxin effect increased to 45 seconds.
- Deerskin Gloves shows locker auras within 20m and considerably reduces reload time (-30% from -20%).
- Rusty Head reveals the aura of the survivor hit when healing within 20m and increases the volume of cries of pain by 50%.
- Begrimed Head inflicts Mangled until healed.
- Pungent Faile, Iridescent Head, and Shiny Pin reworked.
- Pungent Fiale show hatchet trajectory during wind-up (IE. it gives you a crosshair). Reduces max hatchets by 2.
- Iridescent Head silences all hatchet sounds for survivors. Hitting a survivor with a hatchet silences the lullaby for 20 seconds. Increases terror radius by 8m.
- Shiny Pin rarity changed to Ultra Rare. Shiny Pin makes Huntress instantly gain Bloodlust 1 when entering a chase. Reduces max hatchets by 2. Normal bloodlust rules apply.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1585741#Comment_1585741
Which is a bad thing
If it shuts up the crybabies then I'm fine with it. You can literally do this now so what's the difference.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1584926#Comment_1584926
That's too much..then you could just camp pallets at 0 risk
It's literally already a thing though. We're just making it a bit more reliable.
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Just give her footsteps a bit more range. If you have good reactions you can juke when you hear her footsteps, which are completely audible at like 5m. Bump it up to 8m and all your problems go away. Assuming you are good enough to listen for her.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1580451#Comment_1580451
If I see dumb statements which aren't true I will respond to every single one of them, if I can
The irony here is strong.
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Super serial.
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The only problems I have with crossplay are:
- Frame rate advantage on PC
- Hackers on PC
- The fact you don't get matched with people on your platform if one has crossplay on and one has it off. These people should be in the same pool, just don't put crossplayers in with people that have it turned off. If a free Xbox lobby is available it should put me in it even if the other players all have crossplay on and I don't. Makes no sense to further divide the playerbase, unless the goal is to force people to use this ######### crossplay, which seems to be the case honestly.
- Not knowing what platform someone is. Like I can understand not showing this in the lobby because "I'm not playing with [insert platform here] players" but I should be able to see what platform they are on after the game.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1576881#Comment_1576881
Flip the script for a second. If "Counterplay as survivor is when he has options that will save him, when he plays correct," then how would you define counterplay from a killer's perspective? Many perks, items, and even addons are designed to punish killers for playing "correctly." I don't necessarily disagree with your definition, but I do feel it implies too much of a guarantee, which should not only exist in a 1v4 scenario, but if it did, should be for the 1 and not the 4.
Meanwhile if a killer hooks someone and they get unhooked, the killer downs and unhooks someone else, then re-downs and picks up that first person within 60 seconds, they can eat a DS. Survivors can jump into a locker immediately after getting unhooked and put the killer in a situation where they're not guessing to win or lose the situation, but rather "how much they're willing to lose the situation by."
This seems to be lost on a lot of survivors, as their equivalent is "I might go down, but I will waste as much of the killer's time and pressure as I can doing it" but they aren't willing to see that perspective. If 2 people are hooked in the basement, and you bring the killer to the opposite corner of the map and give them time and space for everyone to get saved before you get downed, you won that chase. The killer lost. You took a situation that very realistically would have led to 2 kills, and reset the scenario entirely. If instead the survivor just sits there trying to loop the killer directly over top of the shack, they're eventually going to be placed on hook #3. Survivors are quick to say "lol don't tunnel ez gg" in response to the former, but often refuse to "take one for the team" in the latter.
As for the nurse LoS strategy, it absolutely is counterplay. The Nurse can blink through things, but she can't land inside of them. Attacks also have an incredibly frustrating degree of autoaim that can cause them to gravitate into obstacles when manipulated. Pairing the two things together makes it considerably less guaranteed that the nurse will land her blinks when there are obstructions present, in addition to needing to visually know where to blink to. It is not a guaranteed escape much like its not a guaranteed hit: instead it improves the survivors chances of avoiding being hit, and through their own input at that. Thus, counterplay.
The comparison to "hold w" is a bit of a bad faith argument, as the input is there, but it directly defies the game's core mechanics. The killer is faster than the survivor in almost every single case, and bloodlust/killer powers exist to increase that advantage. While holding W is technically counterplay, it loses efficiency linearly without other strategy to replace it. The holding W isnt the counterplay, the changes to map pressure/positioning/etc are the counterplay.
The fact you quoted the other guy but he @ me genuinely confused me.
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@xEa said:
I think it is also crucial to define the term "counterplay" for any discussion around that. Because it can mean a lot of things and people often define it different. They might even think the same way, but just because of definition, they dont agree.
Holding W and run in a straight line is technically counterplay, because it prolonges chasetime. But we dont call this counterplay, right?
Counterplay as survivor is when he has options that will safe him, when he plays correct.
Let us for a second talk about the Nurse example. There are many people who say that counterplay against Nurse is to break LOS. Is that true? Actually not really, it is basicly our hold W example, since there is nothing that hinders Nurse to blink at your location no matter what you try and what you do. You can guess where she is blinking, but it is nothing more then a guess, no matter how well you analise patterns. It might work, it might not work. So LOS is per definition no counterplay.
Would you agree with that?
As @Ryuhi said, counterplay doesn't mean you win. It means you can influence the outcome. Which you can do against Slinger/Spirit. However, they can remove you safety nets until you are either forced to make a choice/commit to something. Like trying to run from Spirit while healthy is indeed different than while injured. You have more of a safety net when healthy because you make less noise and you can take a hit.
And if being put into that situation leads to a downward spiral where you eventually lose (which is what happens in every game ever BTW, someone gains a lead and use it to their advantage to win, a game literally can't function without this core concept) then wouldn't the counterplay then be to AVOID that situation altogether? Run early against them. Force Spirit to phase to catch up. Get distance on Slinger. HIDE. OMG I can't stand how this is "no counterplay".
If you want to define it as "no counterplay in a chase" well then the problem becomes that... the whole game is not about a chase. What about a killer like Doc who has little to no counterplay in stealth, or Billy who has little to no counterplay in slugging/map pressure? Why is it only "in a chase". The entire game is not a chase. If you have the most fun DOING that fine. I mean... majority of people that play Gears Of War play it because of the Gnasher and wallbounce. Literally they just run around with 1 gun all game trying to style on you. If you wanna bang out 1v all the time sure, but don't expect to win like that. Lancer win games in Gears. But as I said many times before, if you play to win it might suck, and Lancer fights suck. For both sides (unless you suck with Gnasher then it's the best thing ever and Gnasher is OP and needs to be removed from the game LMAO).
That's the problem with this discussion. Everyone that wants they killers changed because "no counterplay in a chase" are missing out on the bigger picture. The game is not just a chase, there are other ways to play.
And again, I don't like Slinger. But that's more because getting speared just feels lame. It would be neat if he could spear you and you could still run normally but he could influence your movements or limit the distance you can gain or something. If that was a thing the whole zoning/quickscope stuff wouldn't be a problem honestly because you don't get so insanely punished for getting speared (which is currently a hit AND being pulled out of position, it's almost like he get a hit without a speed boost).
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1576806#Comment_1576806
Forcing people to have to guess very much is counterplay. Removing safety is a pretty important part of competitive strategy in pretty much any game, going all the way back to chess/shogi/etc. Counterplay doesn't mean you automatically win a situation, it means you have a chance for your input to determine the outcome, as opposed to be being trapped in a losing scenario. There are varying degrees of strength to counterplay, but that doesn't mean scenarios that do not directly favor you have zero counterplay.
Being stuck on phase 2 of the hook is a scenario that has no counterplay. You can only mash until you get saved, or die. Being on stage 1 does have counterplay, because you have the possibility to 4%. Its not strong counterplay, and is often far more risky than it is worth, but it exists compared to Phase 2. There are even perks that can strengthen that counterplay, like deliverance. But at the end of the day, you have the potential to directly impact the situation positively for yourself.
The argument shouldn't be about whether the counterplay exists, it should be about how strong or weak the counterplay is.
People please like bomb this comment.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1576678#Comment_1576678
Saying you are predicting someone when you have no idea who they are or how they play is yes, stroking your ego. All players are not the same.
Ok so like... when you start a game and you see Nurse, what are you going to think?
BBQ
Nurse's
Infectious
Shadowborn
Ruin
Corrupt
Omega blinks
Camp
Tunnel
Slug
I mean that's all the basic Nurse's tactics right there (obv there are more but these make up like 95% of all Nurses you will ever play). The ones that WIN anyway. I could literally get put against any Nurse on the planet, and as long as I acknowledge all the winning tactics she could employ at any given moment then I can counter play her without ever getting chased by her. Some details can only be found in a chase yes, but you can easily adjust your strategy just to account for the potential winning strategies the other player uses.
I used the word "winning strategies" because if she does a losing strategy it's like, who the ######### cares. She just loses then.
Therefore it is 100% possible to already know what to do against a player you never actually played against before. It's not like the Nurse is going to big brain 400 IQ a new way to play Nurse. It's the same #########, different day.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1576528#Comment_1576528
As far as what to change on someone like Deathslinger, I have no idea. I just know the problems people have with him and Spirit. I don't really care personally as I mostly play killer.
But no, I disagree that if you take actions that results in the Spirit messing up that that is counterplay, only because the actions you are taking have little to no strategy behind them. Yes, you can attempt things like early pallet drops, reverse pallet drops, pallet drops then vaulting, running back into the Spirit,etc. but the fact remains all you are doing with every single one of these choices is making a random decision and hoping the Spirit doesn't hear properly.
Just because you take an action that causes an opponent to screw up does not mean its counterplay. If the action was an informed, educated decision then I would lean more towards it being counterplay. The problem is, against a good Spirit, you do not have enough time to analyze the player before you are dead, and then you get a different killer, so all of that talk of "making reads" on Spirit is completely BS because you cannot make reads on someone based on 30 seconds of chasing. You are just guessing, stop stroking your ego.
"Yes, you can attempt things like early pallet drops, reverse pallet drops, pallet drops then vaulting, running back into the Spirit,etc. but the fact remains all you are doing with every single one of these choices is making a random decision and hoping the Spirit doesn't hear properly."
It's not a random decision though.
Firstly, humans are animals of habit. No matter how hard you try, there will always be patterns. It is impossible for someone to play a video game randomly.
Secondly randomly implies you do literally anything. No you have a set of options available. Like if it were random, a survivor will stop running, put down their item, walk left for 3 seconds, then crouch for 5, then run while looking up. That's random. What people do in a chase is not random.
So at the end of the day, you aren't just doing random things and hoping she messes up. A good player would try to read what she is going to do based on the options available to her (because she's not just going to do random ######### either). So if you are sprinting at a window, it is 50/50 that you are going to vault it. She has to win that 50/50 to get you. If it's a good window, then even if she predicts you make it she shouldn't be able to go around the window and still catch up. Once you see her end phase then you just hold forward and run tiles for 10-15 seconds and do it again. Make her lose enough of those engagements and she will spend too much time chasing her. YOU EVEN SAY THIS IN ONE OF YOUR VIDEOS. I would go look for it but I'm insanely lazy right now, but it was a game where you were Spirit on Wretched Shop IIRC. At one point someone leads you on a chase to the map building I think and you let them go saying "too many 50/50's, it's a time sink to chase this person" BOOM that is exactly what you need to do to counter Spirit. Granted you didn't have Stridor (which BTW I don't think helps as much as people claim, I main Spirit with Stridor for a long time and it's great but unless they have Iron Will it can be hard to pinpoint their locations from sounds alone because they are so loud, also sounds are always ######### so they are just too unreliable IMO), and also you didn't chase (which is a smart move as killer, a lesser killer would take that chase and probably lose because of it), but the point remains.
Like I get it. You are a killer main. One of the best out there. When I play Spirit, like 95% of survivors go full potato. I'm sure for you it feels like more, but that's not because the Spirit is OP is because most people don't truly understand what to do against her, so they die really fast. For you it might seem like she has no counterplay, but the truth is probably more that there are very very few survivors that could actually run from you as a normal killer, and even fewer that can run from you as Spirit.
To take another example, though maybe somewhat the opposite, Jigglypuff in Smash Melee. Now she is supposed to be one of the best characters in the game. Top 3 ranked among the best, some players even put her at 1 above Fox (which is true LOLs but I digress). Thing is, you don't see a lot of Puffs in high level play. There are literally like 2 Puffs that play at the highest level. Hungrybox and I don't even know who else (maybe 1 then?). Why? Because she is so INSANELY hard to play at that level that most players get bodied and change characters long before they get to that point. Hungrybox is literally the only guy that shows the true potential of Puff.
In the same kind of way Spirit is like the opposite of Puff. Instead of being really hard to play as at high levels, she is really hard to play against. It leads to the same kind of result. In Melee, most players outside the pros would say Puff isn't that good. In DBD, most players would say Spirit is too good. But it's not that she's too good, it's more that most people just suck playing against her.
I've been run as Spirit with Stridor by very good survivors that knew what I was doing. They knew how to safely run from loop to loop such that I'm forced to either phase at the loop and likely lose them on the way to the next loop, or waste my power chasing to the next loop then get looped for 15s as a 110 killer. I've done it myself too to many Spirit players. It can be done.
The reason I make this thread is because "no counterplay" is a meme at this point. She has counterplay. Yet every time someone gives an example it's always "oh that's not actual counterplay" or "Spirit bad" or "you got lucky that wasn't skill"... sorry if you can consistently run from Spirit, any Spirit, then it wasn't luck. And even the best players in the world ######### up from time to time. I remember seeing a match of Tokido's Akuma in SF4, he ######### up a DP input and did fireball and got bodied for it. You drive your whole "no counterplay" on the assumption the Spirit player plays perfectly and is infallible. No people ######### up. A lot. The thing is, how much you get punished is dependent on how good the other players are. If they suck, which again most suck against Spirit and most survivors in general are just flat out bad at the game, yea it will seem like you can play as sloppy as you want and still win convincingly as Spirit. But then get a group of survivors that each know how to run from Spirit, AND they are generally good survivors, it becomes a totally different game. One you can easily lose for a simple mistake, and one where you will have to consistently outplay them in a chase.
I just don't buy into this concept at all. I've been around competitive gaming for like 20 years at this point. If something TRULY has no counterplay then that's all the game would be. But I don't see nothing but Spirit, and when I do see Spirit she doesn't always get a 4k. IDK what her most recent stats are, but she still doesn't have a 100% kill ratio. As much as you want to say "when I say a killer has no counterplay it does not mean they are overpowered" that is ultimately what that statement means, because if they TRULY had no counterplay then they would be overpowered and would be winning when they shouldn't. Old Legion was like this because all he had to do was hit you twice in Frenzy then follow you and you go down. No mind games. No running tiles. No looping. Literally nothing, you just go down. That I think you can legit say has no counterplay as there is actually no way for you to escape this situation. But Spirit is not so cut and dry. You can use tactics to get her to mess up. You can run tiles. You can loop a little bit if she can't use her power (or chooses not to). There are things you can do to win in a chase. It might not be as significant a thing to help you win as say, V Wraith where you can just safely run loops the whole time, but the counter play is there. Again, I said this earlier IDK if you read, but if she is super strong in a chase and mind games, why are you trying to beat her at that game? Really what's wrong with hiding from her? It's boring? So the ######### what. Sometimes winning and having fun aren't the same thing. Sometimes if you want to have fun, it means you probably won't win, and sometimes if you want to win then what you are about to do won't be much fun. Going back to Melee, just go watch Hungrybox in finals. Tell me how exciting the gameplay is to watch. No ######### that, tell me how much fun you would have playing like him. Protip, it's not fun, but it wins Evo.
Sorry I know that's a lot of text but I just really can't take this BS anymore. You of all people need to avoid these kinds of buzzwords. You had an entire video about "don't call it gen rush" but then freely use other buzzwords/phrases like "no counterplay". It's getting ridiculous.
The fact you can't even really offer a solution to Deathslinger and Spirit suggest they might not have as little counter play as you claim. I mean, we were easily able to find solutions to old Legion. Now Legion is in a good spot (though maybe could use more love in the add-ons but I digress again). But we can't do that same for Slinger/Spirit, IDK that says to me the whole premise of their powers having no counterplay just seems flawed. Like you know what happened when Bayo came out in Smash 4? EVERYONE PLAYED HER. Because she actually had no counterplay. Spirit/Slinger are not used in such high amounts nor kill at such high rates that you can fairly say they have no counterplay. Frustrating counterplay might be a thing, yes, as it can be frustrating to play against Hungrybox (some people pop off instead of playing out the lame), but no counterplay... no.
Sorry again for the wall of text. Hope it all makes sense. I have mad respect for you, just man, you gotta realize when YOU say something the parrots all come out and none of them really provide the background that you do. They just repeat ad nauseam and don't get what they are saying. Just this really smart guy who is good at the game said it, so now they say it. It's getting unbearable.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/185678/no-counter-play-lol
In theory there is counterplay against keys: Kill the survivors before they finish gens and slug the last 2 survivors.
In theory there is counterplay against Mori: Dont let the killer catch you at all
In theory there is icounterplay against Legion1.0: Run into a field and hope he looses you (serious suggestions at that time)
Those counterplays of Legion 1.0, Moris and keys are about as reliable as those against Deathslinger/Spirit you named. Its a mixture of luck and unreliable or even unlreasitic scenarios.
Sure you can hide against a Spirit or Slinger and hope he or she does not find you, but then we are again at the same problem: You can only HOPE she does not find you, and you have little to no impact that she wont sniff out your hiding spot. On top of it against stridor and good headset, your hiding is even more pointless.
Or long walls... first of all, i disagree that long walls are even any serious counterplay against Deathslinger. Please show me some footage of anyone beeing able to run a good Deathslinger on a 4 Wall. And next to that, those spots are totally RNG. Its like saying "Lerys is a good counterplay against Nurse, so she is fine".
I think many people hate Spirit and Slinger because even a bad player can catch a much better and more experiecend player with ease. I also think that "no counterplay" is in fact the right term, as long as there is no real counterplay to it you have impact as survivor. RNG or killer who are not good are none of that.
In theory you could also play so perfectly such that no survivor could ever escape you.
Oh wait...