runningguy
runningguy
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@TheVarietyKiller said:
I have seen that this game has an issue with players having a lack of sympathy towards the other roles.
For example, if a Killer complains about the game being survivor sided and bully squads and Gen rushing, they get so many unsympathetic comments about how they need to get good. Survivors complain about killers tunneling, slugging and running full slowdown, killers will immediately say they have to (which they kinda do need to do, but that’s besides the point.)
I feel that this comes from ignorance. My suggestion? Go play the other role for a few hours.
It lets you see how bad it is to be tunnelled or slugged at five gens by a Myers (true story, happened one time to me and my friends). Survivors will see how miserable it is to face a bully squad, have two gens pop by the first hook or get t-bagged at the exit gate.i play both sides, i have no empathry towards either side. we do what we gotta do
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pain res is only good v bad survivors. But when there are people that loop well or stealth good enough to not get hooked…thats when the perk becomes useless.
The main issue i find is when survivors refuse to touch gens and im the only one doing them…. i get half way through a gen, someones gets hooked, gen regresses. i get it back up to about 75%, someone else goes down and gets hooked, my gen blows again. When this happens a 3rd time and the killer has had 3 hooks before 1 gen is done i know how that match is going to end. Me getting the hatch.
However, when others do gens and can loop better then gens can fly before pain res triggers. And if others are doing gens then even if my gen blows then there is another gen still being worked on.
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@ShogunMetalShot said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042266#Comment_4042266
Would removing the specifics and leaving only the region work for you then?
e.g. just saying "North America" or "Europe" instead of going down to the state/provinceyou can see this on the it shows what region your currently in
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041886#Comment_4041886
It always puzzles me that you have this pessimistic view that people are toxic and use comms to shout slurs so much that your against comms for solo but you also seem to have this conflicting thing that most people are honourable players that wouldnt abuse certain things even when they can. its very conflicting points of view.
It's almost as though people are complex and different and no one is one-note. Anyone who's spent any lengthy time on open VC knows how it gets. Maybe you think its funny and fine when racist, sexist, and homophoboc slurs get hurled left and right but many do not. And it will be just like the chat. It'll affect how people view the game and it's playerbase, and these views are responsible for a lot of the bad attitudes in this game. You yourself are tilted by tbagging, the goofiest, most immature thing in this game. People on comms are infinitely worse than some mass of pixels doing squats.
are people scummy or not?
People are mostly bad. I don't trust anyone. But I'm not going to use people as rungs on my ladder to success. People will be how they will but preemptive betrayal and deception aren't aligned with my personal moral code and stupid teammates aren't going to change that. Assuming every single person is garbage and treating them as such lacks nuance. This is also just a video game. If you can't be decent in something this stupid I don't know where you can be decent.
if they are then you should be thanking me for pointing out the potential flaws in suggestions mentioned and how i would be able to use them much to your dislike.
I assume anything you want benefits you and you alone. You've given me zero reason to feel otherwise. I also don't really think there's isn't anything you wouldn't manipulate in your favor but luckily I only rarely see anyone acting like you in-game, so the game doesn't need to revolve around that sort of behavior. You and I arguing for an audience of no one isn't deciding what direction this game is going in.
you are basically saying you want to play a different game to dbd.
Talk about the the pot calling the kettle black. You've been told by mutiple people that you're treating the game as something totally different than what we have. This is no longer the creepy, tense, hide-and-seek horror game you wish it to be. Comms are also the antithesis of that isolated experience you seem so proud and desiring of, so that also makes no sense.
i would stay on gens like a good boy, people can see im not hiding behind a rock im contributing to the team.
If one's on hook, one's in chase, and two are on gens, one of those on gens has to go for the unhook. If you show a pattern in a match of never going for unhooks while sitting on a gen or slinking about pretending the killer is nearby people who aren't dumb will get your number. Many players are vigilant in regards to rats. You're playing with duos and trios too. One dies, they spectate and keep their buddies updated on your behavior.
if people decide to throw me under the bus, the one person doing gens then it would be a bad move for them because im often the only one doing gens.
I continue to wonder who these people are you're playing with, both the survivors and killers. I wish the survivors in my killer matches weren't all slamming gens from the get-go.
or i can just go afk and killers like you will leave me alone for a while lol who needs stealth when i play dead?
Not all killers are me, but I'm not the opponent you want either. Just because I don't take dishonorable free downs doesn't mean I let people leave. Once you're moving again you're back on the menu. And I'm the last killer you want. I notice when I don't see someone all match. It doesn't matter what they're doing, they aren't taking aggro or sharing hook states, so I'm going to find them.
stealth will not be removed from the game any more than tunneling will
Tunneling will likely see a deincentivization at some point. We're on that track, regardless of the last shoot-downs. Stealth has already had many nerfs. More would likely come, especially if tunneling gets nerfed. Killers getting Killer Instinct after unique hooks is a possibility. And you can't hide from that. Like I said, this is no longer the game you want it to be and it becomes less so as time goes on.
And all I'm really saying is to start by adding a winrate to the stat page. It's just more data, after all. My win rates would probably be fairly close to my ER and KR. Most are probably like that. Only some will have large discrepancies.
its more constructive then reinventing the game from the ground up to form a perfect game in the hope to snuff out playstyles you dont agree with because it just simply wont happen.
You're saying this simple change from one stupid, pointless number to another would 'snuff out' your playstyle? Is your percentage the sole motivation for playing this game?
The best players in this game play as a team. The comp players, the upper MMR. These people want everyone out. They want to actually beat the killer. You can talk about how good you are all day but the killers are winning in your matches, and the hatch won't raise your MMR and will keep you with easily fooled killers and potato teammates. That's a weird goal, and an even weirder source of pride.
you say complex but i say contradictory and double standards where you use logic to push your agenda but wont apply the same logic when it conflicts with your argument. When you determine people are awful and will do bad things when given the opportunity like comms… you dont think people will do bad things when given the opportunity regarding abusing perks or game mechanics. Even when you are told by someone they would abuse it you switch stances from people are bad to people wouldnt do that because it doesnt fit your narrative to stick with the people are bad argument. You even say people are mostly bad but before that you say most people would abuse a game mechanic that can be abused. its not complex its a contradictory, pick a lane.
Being someone that plays both killer and survivor, how can something benefit me and only me?? If it benefits me its going to benefit others too. Again, the logic that makes no sense. Anything i want would benefit me, why would i want something that doesnt benefit me in any way? But that would not benefit only me.
The game is what it is. i play according to the rules of the game and work towards my objective. How that objective is achieved can differ from player to player. some play solo, SWF, loop, use a variety of different perks and builds, i use stealth which a legitimate tactic just like tunneling. Thats not treating the game as totally different to what we have….that is what we have. We still have stealth killers like ghostface, pig, myers, wraith. We still have indoor maps where stealth killers thrive. We still have challenges aimed at solo players, the hatch for a single player to escape. i see the game for what it is and play in a way that the game allows. I really dont know why you cant grasp the CHOICE factor of comms. It is possible to have it as an option to turn it off so players wanting that isolated tense horror feel can still get that from the off button so wanting comms on soloq doesnt go against my want for classic horror dbd, i would have the choice to have it on or off depending what i want at that time.
So the fact you dont see someone all match means you will target them for not taking aggro…..Your basically saying the weak looper that often gets tunneled out of the match first match after match finally lasts long enough to get a couple gens done trying to not get chased out of fear of being tunneled, this player will be your target just because you havnt seen them lol. Your more like me than you like to admit. Your reasoning my differ but your actions are no different to a tunneling killer, target the weak link, ignore the strong players that you have seen looping all match and hunt down that weak looper. wonder how you would make that survivor feel after being tunneled repeatedly match after match only to come across you which actively hunts them down. Do you really expect survivors to run up to killers and take aggro? this player you are targeting due to not seeing them might have done 4 gens all on their own, unhooked, healed, gave medkit to a team player, placed boons for benefit of the team and you target them because you havnt seen them all match? And people call me ruthless lol. You clearly have no regard for that players feelings much like a tunneling killer has no regard of survivors feelings. Your actions based on assumptions that they are a rat much like a tunneling killers assumptions that every team is SWF swat team so hard tunnels every match. Not that different.
cant hide from killer instinct? really? most killers use killer instinct not full aura read, killer instinct is actually easier to avoid because it give a vague location of where the survivor is but does not show the exact location. And as per my stealth advice i have given previously, know how the aura read/killer instinct works, when its triggered and it will make it much easier to avoid actually being caught when the killer comes over.
As for winning. i dont care if the killers are winning. they can win if it means i win too and an escape is a win for me. Hatch doesnt raise or lower mmr but look at the big picture. 100 matches….. 20 matches i die, 20 matches i abandon, 30 matches i escape via gate, 30 matches i get hatch. That works of 30/100 wins 70/100 losses? mmr will not go up. This is incorrect. abandons dont count so scrap the abandon matches, they might as well not exist, wont lose mmr or gain. scrap the hatch matches because thats not a gain or loss for mrr. Now its 30/50 wins…winning more than losing will increase mmr. it might go up slowly, it might go up fast depending on the mmr of the killer but one way or another the mmr will increase. makes you wonder why even have the hatch when its neutral mmr. might as well just abandon tbh. See how keeping mmr neutral match after match keeps it steady then winning via the gates pushes it up slightly for a few matches then keep it steady then raise again slightly?
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042140#Comment_4042140
- Most of them dont even want to be chased. Yes, there are some cocky player who think they are their favourite streamer, but most of the 10-seconds-downs result of bad stealth. It would be good if they would learn atleast decent stealth first. Most people sadly dont know killer powers, perks or even the rough killer spawn logic, so they make silly mistakes.
- You can use rat builds as a safety net. Only one clairvoyance makes the hatch game a lot easier.
- Understandable. Its pure subjective. For challenges its the same, for mmr a tie and for some players its a lose. For me personally its just not fun enough most of the time. But thats a really complicated personal reasoning. In short: bc slugging for hatch is easy, hooking the third survivor feels like gifting the hatch for Nr. 4.
But all that said, it all changes. I was the guy who would risk almost certain death if i could get a cool safe in endgame. Yes, failure sucked, but pulling it off felt better than escaping ten times. (And yes, people abandon me often, let me hang and it feels awful) That changed quite a bit bc i think now dying more often results in worser teammates. Maybe just a placebo. But now i think twice about going for risky plays.
@Philscooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042157#Comment_4042157
Have anyone play this game as survivor without researching the guides and you will see what i mean when people say, you need 1k hours to play survivor.
Even IF you do take the effort to read the guides, it doesnt translate to pratice. You can't just magically go on 5 gen chases, run the best build because you got no idea or even help your teammates. Compared to killer which is alot easiee to do. Either because of killer power or soloq being abysmally balanced.
You could play in a swf, but you would need to be carried which i dont see happening.
Stealth isnt an option anymore due to killer mains whining at every problem they face and bhvr supporting it.
Distortion and adren nerf being proof of that.
Why would i risk hiding to be downed from a locker or giving a free healthstate and being in a disadvantagious position?. Especially now that most experinced survivors left the game or now exclusively play in swfs, due to the horrendous design choices made by exclusively listening to killers.
They buffed aura reading, so even if you did use distortion, it wouldnt work since you have to be in chase while the killers perks activations are outside of chasing (hooking survivor, opening locker, kicking gen, ect).
if stealth wasnt an option i wouldnt be able to do it. im an average player, im not a pro and stealth is still an option for me even with the nerfs to it. You dont need perks to use stealth you just need to know how killer aura read works and play around it, most killers use slow down perks and perks like pain res to determine where survivors are. If people struggle with stealth its no different to struggling with looping….skill issue. im not saying that in a negative way, the fact is if someone like me can do it then there is no reason why others cant. Just takes a bit of practice, patience, knowledge of the game, good judgment, determination.
killer is easier to pick up which is why its often better to play some killer first so you learn how killers work, how they think and use that in your survivor matches. going head first into hard mode (soloq survivor) without any hours can be rough….like playing hard mode on any game you havnt played before. SWF can carry weaker players. i say this for 2 reasons. 1. i have seen regular SWF players play solo and then flat out say they wont do solo ever again because they need the comms. 2. i have played in a duo SWF myself and i have carried my team mate so i know it can be done.
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042187#Comment_4042187
that's gonna happen way less often since there will be a far higher percentage of matches where the killer stomps the survivors.
not for me, im winning most of my survivor matches. which says to me its skill issue and thats on both sides. so all the matches im winning could be justification for the killer to cheat according to you
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042185#Comment_4042185
they won't turn to cheats due to survivors being OP cause survivors aren't OP
You opinion… a low skill killer might disagree. thats my point. a new player with 3 hours of gameplay being matched with survivors with 500 hours? thats not going to go well for the killer, maybe they then decide F this survivors are op…. you cant use that argument for one side and dismiss it when its used for the other side.
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042148#Comment_4042148
people cheat for many reasons, winning is just one of them. for some people, 80 percent isn't enough…they need 100 percent win rate, cheating is the easiest way to do that.
exactly, people cheat for many reasons so you associating it with killers being op as a reason why people cheat doesnt make sense and there is no basis for that assumption as there is evidence to say killers and survivors cheat for various reasons. The exact same argument could be made in reverse, killers that are struggling to keep up with gens and op SWF swat teams turn to cheats due to survivors being op. Maybe survivors getting 50, 60 or even 70% escape rate isnt enough and they want 100%? To attaching cheating to game balance genuinely makes no sense at all because like you said people will cheat for many reason.
Unless…..your saying its the reason why YOU cheat, then you may have a basis for your assumption that others cheat for the same reason as you.
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@Philscooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041792#Comment_4041792
Are we ignoring that the killer wont min-max the survivor by trying to tunnel the fresh installs out?.
Idk whats there to perfect if you need over 1000h for survivor which is just constant death compared to killer who barely need to learn how to tunnel.
Stealth atleast gave us a chance to avoid that, but i guess skill issue for avoiding the killer and reconizing that i cant loop for ######### and wont bring my team down for it....not on the killer for ######### up and unable to find me
you dont need over 1000 hours on survivor to escape, no idea where you came up with this lol.
Stealth is an option and always has been, thats how i play and always have played, its how i win many matches. eventually i learnt to loop better as time went on but i still use looping as my secondary method if or when my primary method of stealth fails.
I think for me it helped that i didnt really "main" either side at first. then i mained killer for about a year or 2, then survivor for a while then killer, i alternate. now im maining survivor again. playing both sides helps in learning how each side thinks and acts.
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042116#Comment_4042116
but people say cheating is worse than ever now. so we're seeing higher levels of cheating as killer role is made unreasonably powerful. cheaters have just found the most efficient way to win, by basically hacking the matrix. abusing cheese tactics with an S tier is just a bit less efficient than the cheater's strategy.
how is saying cheating is worse than ever now saying survivors are cheating due to op killers? if what you say is true we wouldnt have killer cheaters would we, why buy cheats when the role is already op? makes no sense at all. we have only recently had a spike in spirit players with no cooldown hacks and insta down chucky. we still have the usual insta hook nurse. By your logic, your saying these killers buying hacks due to OP survivors when they have S tier cheese tactics they could use instead? Its more accurate to say low skill players would opt for cheats as these players are on both sides.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042043#Comment_4042043
Yeah, you should be stealthy if you are the weak link. But with the current state of matchmaking you need to be quite bad to be the weak link. It makes sense to not run into the killer, but you shouldnt outstealth weaker players.
You seem to have played some hours. So you know a lot about the game. If you really care so much about escaping (and count hatch + exit gates after hatch closing), why do you not hide with a hatch build? That would be better for your statistic.
Im just curious, bc i do not count it. I still play the hatch game seriously, but if its two survivor i normally take the chase (except i get slugged once, then i will hide until eternity).
- its astounding how many players go down in 10 sec of chase. i dont know if thats skill issues or if people just give up instantly. But these are the people i wish would play stealth so they dont get downed so fast, so they can do gens instead of me. Sadly this is not the case. People will want chases and will go down while refusing to touch gens, not much i can do about it other than look out for myself and not let these people drag me down with them.
- going for full hatch build is like a beacon saying "im a rat in the corner not touching gens, not getting chased, im going for hatch". it draws attention because its easily seen and then you get the killer and the other 3 survivors turn on you. Not only that but its technically against the rules to hide for a prolonged amount of time while avoiding the gens. So i dont do that, i do gens, i go in with toolbox every time to crank out the first gen asap hoping someone doesnt go down triggering the pain res. i go in with windows, sprint burst, vigil and deja vu so im prepared for chases and gens if the situation arises that i get chased or i can finish the last gen and walk out the gates while my team go down to noed.
- i do count it because hatch rewards BP and counts as escape even for challenges. if it didnt count for anything why bother having it? might as well just throw myself to the killer or maybe turn the hatch into a huge blender so people can suicide by jumping in if doesnt count for anything. Another reason i count it is due to certain situations that calls for hatch, such as 3 people exit the gate instantly for a change instead of tbagging the killer…me being chased, injured no way i can make it to the gate…hatch spawns, i escape. we all did gens, the gate was open, we all escaped. Or when i have an active trap on my head v pig and pig is guarding the 1 box i need to remove it…gens are done, gates are open but cant leave via the gates with an active trap on….you can leave via hatch with active trap on.
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042047#Comment_4042047
that's what I meant but didn't feel like explaining it. killers are always complaining that there are way more survivors cheating. I don't see as many killer cheaters unless they're using wall hacks
there are 4 survivors per match compared 1 killer per match. statistically more likely that 1 of the 4 survivors will be cheating. think how many killers you get in 5 matches….5 killers. how many survivors in 5 matches? 20. odd are you will see more survivors cheating.
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041971#Comment_4041971
Lol easy question. The stat tracker is broken because there's a bug that counts abandons as escapes meaning your stats are artificially inflated. Btw, cheating is related to balance, you can't separate the two.
they do not count abandons as escapes. they do not count abandons at all, no escape or death. if you abandon 9/10 matches and escape 1/10 it will say 100% escape rate but it will not say you escaped 10/10 matches. it will say you escaped 1/1 because the other 9 matches were void….didnt happen, not existent. This is a big difference. while it does inflate escape rate, it does not show in recent matches as an escape. so looking at previous 30 matches is actually a better indicator than looking at escape rate. And cheating is not related to balance at all, there are cheaters on both sides so it wouldnt make sense if it was a balance issue.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041831#Comment_4041831
Of course they will abandon after a while, but its still better than them chasing someone else immediately. Stealthing would only buy more time if an entire swf does it.
It also means i have more time for gens. I can run to the best gen and do it out in the open. I do not need to waste time with stealth bc the killer doesnt want to chase me anymore. Like is said i use stealth only in special situations.
And yes, people sometimes do no gens. But they also wouldnt do it while someone goes down in 10 seconds. And if they are going down that fast i cant do all gens in time. If im spawning alone on a gen, im doing it. There are good loopers out there and then its a great start. But sadly the risk of a 30-second-down, no gens finished and gen-regression kicking in is too high.
the whole team doesnt need to use stealth for it to be effective, if there are 3 strong loopers and 1 weak looper it makes sense for the 1 weak looper the play stealth instead of being tunneled out fast. the strong loopers can do the looping. And like i have said before, soloq is exactly that, solo. if playing stealth doing gens means i survive longer than everyone else which allows me to get a hatch or even walk out the gate when the hatch is closed…its effective. It might sound harsh but as a solo player i dont know who is a good looper and who is not, i dont even know if im good enough to loop that particular killer or not, i might be, i might not be. My number one priority is gens and out live the rest. its helped me escape many times. some play differently and it works for them, thats great but i play my own way, escape doing it and actually enjoy my matches which is something many survivors seem to not be able to say.
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@Crowman said:
The flip side is if you make it so killers cannot kill survivors quickly then gens will just fly. Most killers do not have strong powers so juggling 4 survivors only works if survivors are significantly worse than you. And survivors wouldn't enjoy facing solely nurses and ghouls either who have strong powers to have quick chases to get multiple hooks quickly.
In my opinion the speed of which killers or survivors can complete their objective is just too fast for games to be enjoyable. You have to adjust both sides objectives, because just nerfing killers when gens can be done in 3 minutes is not better for the game.
exactly this. if tunneling gets nerfed so must gen speeds. how they both get nerfed is another matter but you cant have 1 without the other. maybe keep the old ptb anti tunnel and put a block on gens for a certain time frame or at certain intervals like a basekit dead mans switch sort of thing? increase gen speeds? increase regress on gens? no idea, but only working on tunneling without addressing the speeds that caused the tunneling just wont work. slow the gens down, slow the kills down, slow the game down as a whole.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041850#Comment_4041850
However, i advocate for game mechanics that cant be abused by either side.
Like what? Comms? Yeah you sure can't lie to people then mute them as you betray them. 100% not abusable.
i have already said how i would use aura read in a way you disagree with, you think its a good idea adding that knowing how it can and would be used by me?
Most people aren't like you. This is the same as people complaining about players abusing post unhook protections. The vast majority won't, but because a few will, we can't have anything. This is how nothing gets done. And people wouldn't abuse Bond if the wincon was different. If hook states are essentially a shared resource, you'd only be hurting yourself. It's also not as though scummy people can't run Bond already.
But please tell me how you'd abuse basekit Kindred. If anything, it would put you on blast every time someone gets hooked and you're standing still behind that rock.
but we all know thats not really true
If the killer won it stands to reason your TEAM lost. If they hadn't made that God forsaken stat page, we would have no uniform measurement unit. And as you you know, the stats are wrong if you use abandon, which you said you do, so cool fake stats, I guess.
the amount of people that want the stats tracker to show accurate results says they do care about escape rates, wins and stats not just what they consider a win or loss.
I've been one of the loudest people in regards to the stat page being fixed to get rid of these vanity awards for abandoning. It's not that I care about the numbers, it's that they're the only official measurements we have and they're completely wrong for survivor. If I had it my way, the page would be removed. Stats are stupid. They tell you nothing about what happened in a match or how the match felt, but they're currently all we have to reference.
would you be good knowing im using it in a bad way especially if im in your match?
Goes both ways. Bond is great for rat hunting. And if both of us have it, I'd see you coming too, wouldn't I? First time I see someone with no hooks running right for me with the killer on their heels I immediately know what I'm dealing with. See how the matches go for you when your betrayals become obvious from the get-go.
people cant hear me now so how would muting me allow me to abuse comms even they could set it as if a player mutes it then then cant communicate or hear other people. makes no sense, your just giving odd what ifs that defy logic and reasoning. even lying to people means its up to the people to believe me or not same as chat wheel. aura read i cant lie but it will show me where people are so if need them out so i can get hatch it will help me in that way.
Most people are not like me? tell that to the people that abused the anti slug mechanic time and time again resulting in it being scrapped or the people abusing infinite loops years ago which resulted in them being stopped or the amount of killers that would literally face camp and grab any survivor that went for the unhook which they have no removed. give people an opportunity and they will use it in ways you least expect. It always puzzles me that you have this pessimistic view that people are toxic and use comms to shout slurs so much that your against comms for solo but you also seem to have this conflicting thing that most people are honourable players that wouldnt abuse certain things even when they can. its very conflicting points of view. are people scummy or not? if not then whats the big deal with comms? if they are then you should be thanking me for pointing out the potential flaws in suggestions mentioned and how i would be able to use them much to your dislike.
if win con was changed it wouldnt change the fact that people have personal challenges. if win con changes and no one has personal challenges, no hatch (why have hatch where 1 person can escape if its a team win/loss)…then yes things might be different but you creating a whole dofferent game. Like if i said what if survivors had weapons to attack the killers and defend themselves? its a big change but its not what dbd is no matter how much you want it to be ad the more you suggest dramatic changes the effect not just a little part but the whole game then you are basically saying you want to play a different game to dbd.
how i would use basekit kindred? i would stay on gens like a good boy, people can see im not hiding behind a rock im contributing to the team. if people decide to throw me under the bus, the one person doing gens then it would be a bad move for them because im often the only one doing gens. without me gens often dont get done. or i can make it look like im going for save but cant quite make it…. stealth is being sneaking, unseen, im good at deception, i can make it seem like im doing one thing but im actually doing something else. like heading to the gen but im actually not looking for a gen im looking for a totem for my challenge. eve when in chase i find the best way is to lose line of sight, use misdirection to confuse the killer so they lose me. when i say im a stealth player i mean im a stealth player, even when the killer has an aura read on me i can manage. trick is to not raise suspicion, not to look like a rat in the corner, do the objective….gens, totems, stuns, whatever that may be. once again you seem to jump to the hide behind a rock thing which is not stealth…..or i can just go afk and killers like you will leave me alone for a while lol who needs stealth when i play dead?
all of this is a non issue because its all a fantasy, the win con wont change, stealth will not be removed from the game any more than tunneling will. nerfed maybe but not removed and as long as its not removed i will find a way to maintain my stealth play. IF the game changes that drastically then might as well give survivors weapons or maybe make it 4 v 4 game….survivors v killers.
Personally i rather think about how the game is and adapt to that. any changes that happen, im sure i will adapt as i always have. its more constructive then reinventing the game from the ground up to form a perfect game in the hope to snuff out playstyles you dont agree with because it just simply wont happen. But you are free to dream.
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@killer_hugs said:
I think this is the #1 problem with the game design.
It's why people complain about tunneling.
If 1 survivor dies early then the killer wins because the remaining survivors cannot advance the game.
If survivors could advance the game then tunneling becomes far less of an issue.
Too many games end this way. 1 survivor dies. The rest run around in a limbo waiting to die doing nothing but waiting for the killer to find and kill them.
And I think it's one of the reasons why 2v8 feels so much better. There's very few games where games stop advancing.
If the developer could meaningfully address this in 1v4 I think the game would be far better.
Like it may not even be something that meaningfully changes the escape or kill rates. But you need survivors to have a reason to continue participating in the game.
Maybe the games been out too long to change the model, maybe we're stuck with what we have, but I think DBD could do better.
Just as an aside; before patch 6.1 there were fewer games that had this problem. Generators were faster, killers were weaker, 3 survivors could often advance games. But due the efficiency currently required this isn't the case anymore. 1 survivor dies and games are usually over.
i would like to point of before 6.1 killers were not hitting the 60% kill rate the devs were aiming for. i believe peanit actually made a post explaining prior to 6.1 killers were underperforming which is why they buffed killers so yes survivors could win more before 6.1 but thats not what the devs wanted. since 6.1 they have now achieved the balance they wanted.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041830#Comment_4041830
i know you have played solo, but now you dont
I played some solo to get that last cosmetics during Haunted by Daylight. I played some last season to wrap up my iri for the month. I'm playing some now to get used to my new Steamdeck. Incidentally, that's a new-to-me device with different controls and a small screen and I'm on my regular MMR getting p100 killers, yet I'm still managing a 50% ER. So it's going okay.
because you have said you dont want awful team mates.
So, again, I don't play in just 4mans. I get plenty of randoms, many are awful. I am not outside of this world.
you must know how rough soloq can be to actively avoid it and prefer swf.
Do I not play soloq and not understand it or do I know how it is because I've played it? Choose.
your even against comms in solo because you think people will be toxic for the sake of being toxic. Yet you think aura read would help and no help people to be toxic?
I'd rather someone drag the killler to me in the world of the game than scream slurs into my actual ears, yes.
It makes sense so avoid the killer if you cant loop that well
You just said people should take opportunities to improve at looping. If all you do is stand behind a rock the second the TR starts you are never getting better at anything. I myself don't loop well, but if three people are on death hook it's time for me to take a hook. If someone is being tunneled I will stand in front of the killer and give them a free down if I have to to try to deter them. Hook states are a resource.
i think that says a lot to be honest, thats what come across as bitter.
Miss me with the innocent act. I've seen what you have to say. You call teammates tools, want the chat wheel to trick them into going towards the killer, and just recently said you pretend to be helpful so you can surprise people with a betrayal. You will never advocate for anything that doesn't benefit you. You just now implied what you would do with free aura. And I'm pretty sure what you actually do is twice as bad as you say because you of all people know there's rules in this forum and this game.
you dont seem particularly happy that other people are doing fine to be honest.
I know its realllllly hard for you to grasp this, but some people don't care how may notches on the escape side of the board you have. As far as I'm concerned, when I get hatch or I go through the gate alone, thats a loss. So, to me, you're probably loosing most of your matches. Most people play games of zero importance for the experience, not the stats. If anything, I just feel really bad for your teammates.
the team might lose, but i wouldnt care because MY goal is still not the same as the teams goal.
The game would change, yes. Quests would change, playstyles would change. Many soloq players are deeply discontent. The fact that the happy ones are the selfish and snake-like is pretty telling about the state of the experience.
if your doing ok thats great, we all have our own ways of playing that works.
it doesnt matter that your not in a 4man swf. even 2man swf means half the team is swf which means there is less chance of getting teamed with a bad solo player. it also means 3 man swf that just go into matches to grief like sabo squads are out of the question because your in a 2 man swf.
You claim to play solo and claim to do ok and also claim to know how bad it is but everything you say says the opposite. you say you prefer SWF, you say you avoid solo, you dont want solo to have comms, you want team win/loss condition, you think aura read wouldnt help people be toxic. literally everything you say is pro SWF and bad for solo so i think my confusion on where you are coming is understandable. Even when the option to tuen comms off so you dont have slurs in your ear, you still find ways to deny soloq something but support the use in SWF.
i probably do much worse in your eyes yes lol i learnt from other soloq players. However, i advocate for game mechanics that cant be abused by either side. Have you noticed all suggestions i debunk are things i openly say how i can use it in a way you disagree with? its to make sure these things dont go through so people like me cant do what i would do. when you suggest something that i cant find a loop hole for then your on the right track. i have already said how i would use aura read in a way you disagree with, you think its a good idea adding that knowing how it can and would be used by me?
if standing behind a rock doesnt help me improve then i wouldnt be able to loop the killer AND use stealth. its not one or the other people can do both which is what makes a good survivor not just a one trick pony that can only stealth or only loop and have no back up for when that playstyle fails.
like i said, you can consider what you want a win or loss….consider it a team win condition. nothing wrong with that, but we all know thats not really true and its no different than saying if i last 20sec in a chase i consider it a win. so you can consider most of my matches a loss, doesnt mean they are losses and the amount of people that want the stats tracker to show accurate results says they do care about escape rates, wins and stats not just what they consider a win or loss.
Like i said, these changes will never go through….team win con for reasons i have already said…a complete overhaul of the game from top to bottom. We all know bhvr will not be doing that based on the patchwork bandaids they keep putting out there. They would sooner make a dbd2 than change the entire game. And aura read would be used by people like me in ways you dont like, so add them, dont add them im good either way, would you be good knowing im using it in a bad way especially if im in your match? not likely
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041805#Comment_4041805
It seems like that but the best start is to have the most gen progress before the first down.
So as experienced player i will run into the middle of the map and search for the killer. Then i will act like i certainly dont want to be chased (teabag as aggro could work, but i dont bm) and loop as long as possible. If im later on deadhook, i will disappear and play it safe. But if i have zero hooks i will just do gens 10m next to a chasing killer.
any good killer would abandon chase and go for someone else, or that killer could get a down pretty quick. if your a pro looper yes that can work IF your team mates are doing gens. if they are not doing gens then your looping will amount to nothing. A common issue in soloq is peoples refusal to touch gens because they are boring. they want chases, they want interaction. but when they go down in 10 seconds and they find out they cant out loop the killer then its "dont tunnel me".
i have looped the killer for ages, enough for multiple gens to be done….were they done? nope, there are people hovering around with a flashlight waiting for a save or spinning in circles on the edge of the map or doing totems, maybe doing gens but failing every single skill check somehow. That is why stealth is my first and foremost tactic, dont get chased, do gens and only loop if i have to because i often cant rely on my team to do gens. i cant even rely on them to loop very well which is why i bring hatch offerings a lot. i cover my bases and rely on the team less than most. Thats how i survive and escape and avoid being tunneled. all 3 of these things are something many survivors complain about. i found my own way to play that works for me.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041805#Comment_4041805
You say about this SWF being powerful like a myth yet you rarely play solo and everything you advocate for is directly benefiting SWF while not giving solo players a second thought or how it would effect them because you dont play solo.
For the thousandth time, I have played plenty of soloq. I didn't come to this game knowing anyone who played it. How is basekit Kindred or Bond advocating for SWF? That's a solo buff. I've even said soloqers should have a limited fifth perk slot to choose a team info perk. I use Empathy in all my matches, solo or SWF. This is me advocating for giving soloqers something while gaining nothing if I'm partying up. I've also favored the chat wheel option, as well as in-game tips to help with macro. I don't need any of that.
you said it yourself you avoid solo because you dont want awful team mates….even if they try to be team players they can still be bad players as you know.
It's you. You're the teammate I'm trying to avoid.
It comes across like your bitter that players like me that actually use their brains and avoid the killer while doing the objective can win but the people that go for chases lose.
Me, bitter? I'm quite happy with my situation right now. My killer and survivor stats are fine, my matches are fun, I have a good time playing with people. You, however, seem pretty obsessed with SWF since you can't stop talking about it. Sorry people have friends? Not everyone gets pleasure from existing in isolation and watching others fail. I don't want the hatch, I want the whole team out.
you think griefer and solo players that do challenges like escape via the hatch or do stuns or cleanse totems care about being a team player?
Are they really griefers or on they on death hook and trying to unload the killer onto someone who's taken zero aggro the whole match and has no hooks? There aren't all these trolls running around throwing matches on purpose. If you're encountering an inordinate amount, it's probably because of how you play. People don't like rats. I've had many a killer let me go because I was active and someone else was ratting. I just had a Wesker the other day let me and my duomate finish 4 gens after I went for an unhook while injured becuause he realized the other remaining survivor was ratting. People will do a whole 180 because of rats.
When you play solo regularly night after night, not just accasionally, you will see why the idea of a team win/loss would not go down well for you as a solo player.
I've done plenty of that and that's why I want it. I want a reason to solo. Change the wincon and you chage the whole game.
i know you have played solo, but now you dont….why? because you have said you dont want awful team mates. you must know how rough soloq can be to actively avoid it and prefer swf. your even against comms in solo because you think people will be toxic for the sake of being toxic. Yet you think aura read would help and no help people to be toxic? maybe the people taking no aggro all match struggle with looping? leading the killer to them sets them up to be downed fast and potentially tunneled out. It makes sense so avoid the killer if you cant loop that well…only loop when you have to but your in the mindset that anyone avoiding the killer is a rat and should be snuffed out or forced to take chase which is utter nonsense and part of the problem with soloq and part of why killers tunnel. no need to even look for the weak link, the team has lead the killer to them, easy down.
you avoid people like me? the ones doing gens? not the greifers? not the cheaters? not the awful people that cant loop more than 10 seconds? i think that says a lot to be honest, thats what come across as bitter. there are far worse players than me out there lol im the one doing gens when no one else is, im the one making the killer look around for me wasting their time, not being tunneled out instantly. But im the type of player you want to avoid.
im winning my matches, i dont need swf to win, i dont need auras to win, i dont need perks to win, i dont need comms to win. you dont seem particularly happy that other people are doing fine to be honest. very anti tunneling, anti stealth, anti soloq in general by suggesting people should win or lose as a team knowing full well soloq players can often get awful team mates so these people with bad team mates end up losing because the rest of the team is bad. You even said about people giving up often in matches…. these people will give up over anything, i have seen it with maps they dont like. These people that give up should impact the whole team because they dont like the map? you dont see it as much in swf because atleast some of the team are on the same page but it is seen much more in solo and when playing killer, you must have seen players give up when you as killer have done nothing to prompt it. you cant seriously think that giving people aura read and making it a team win/loss will suddenly make people play like a team when they genuinely dont care if they win or loss. change the win con and you will not find improvement. if i have a challenge to do totems or do gens and im solo player, im using that aura read to bring the killer to the injured survivor on a gen so i can do my challenge. it will not make me any more of a team player by changing the win con. the team might lose, but i wouldnt care because MY goal is still not the same as the teams goal. Think of me in your SWF team on comms….my playstyle, using info gained from you so i can throw you all under the bus last min so i can get my hatch challenge. obviously i would be kicked out of that SWF team instantly….that would be what happens in soloq, match after match.
This is why dbd will never have a team win/loss condition. To change it would mean changing the entire game, perks, challenges, hatch, Everything. You can wish for it and hope for it but i can say right now it will never happen.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041805#Comment_4041805
Base-kit Kindred or Bond would make it easier to know which area to avoid as well.
Like how many "griefers" do you think are actually running the killer over to a worked-on gen on purpose, or don't you think it could have been avoided if the poor soloQ teammates knew that someone was actually working on that specific gen, and were able to plan the chase ahead, knowing where not to go.its surprising how many people intentionally do it because they want the killer to chase someone else… some will admit it some wont. "opps accident" doesnt wash when there is clear line of sight and they can see the gen is being worked on and its even easier now with the lights on the gens. if people do this now, give aura read to all and see what happens. This aura read works great for swf that are on the same page but give it to solo players and they will use it selfishly….trust me i know, im a selfish player and know exactly how i would use it for my advantage
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041792#Comment_4041792
each match a survivor gets chased is an opportunity to hone those looping skills
Thank you person who actively avoids chase.
As for the win con….having it as a team win would only benefit SWF.
It wouldn't benefit selfishness, that is for sure, but it would make soloq have to be more of a team. It would also have to come with more help for survivors, like basekit Kindred or Bond, but it would be better for the game overall. The best players in this game play as a team. If soloq wants to be like the oh so powerful and mystical SWF then this 1v1v1v1v1 mentality has to go.
when stealth fails i have to loop…. being in these situations has helped me to get good at both stealth and chases. i rather avoid chases and do gens than avoid gens and get chased. thats just common sense in a game where the objective is do gens and escape before the killer kills you.
you think griefer and solo players that do challenges like escape via the hatch or do stuns or cleanse totems care about being a team player? they dont. you said it yourself you avoid solo because you dont want awful team mates….even if they try to be team players they can still be bad players as you know.
Basekit kindred or bond….sure, make it easier for griefers to run directly to the people doing gens to sabotage them lol. You say about this SWF being powerful like a myth yet you rarely play solo and everything you advocate for is directly benefiting SWF while not giving solo players a second thought or how it would effect them because you dont play solo. It comes across like your bitter that players like me that actually use their brains and avoid the killer while doing the objective can win but the people that go for chases lose. When you play solo regularly night after night, not just accasionally, you will see why the idea of a team win/loss would not go down well for you as a solo player.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041766#Comment_4041766
I think this response actually supports my concerns.
You agree gen speeds have been nerfed but say “not enough.” That’s exactly the issue, what counts as “enough” is subjective. For some players the current state is fine, for others it never will be. There’s no objective gen speed threshold where tunneling suddenly stops, because tunneling isn’t purely a gen speed problem.
You also acknowledge that some killers will tunnel regardless of gen speeds or whether they need to or not. That’s my point. If tunneling still happens when gen pressure isn’t the issue because they’re playing Nurse, Blight, Ghoul, etc. then slowing gens further can’t logically be the solution. Power level doesn’t prevent tunneling, player choice does. Nurses and Blights tunnel just like mid and low tier killers, even when they don’t need to. So we already see that some players tunnel when gen speeds don’t matter due to the killer they are choosing, so it doesn’t make sense to assume that if gen speeds were even longer, they would stop tunneling.
I agree that if gen speeds change, tunneling should be adjusted alongside it. But I disagree with the idea that killers tunnel because of gen speeds, or that slowing gens would make tunneling disappear. I feel we already have proof that it is not the case.
it seems like you havent read the part where i said forced. obviously killers will tunnel regardless as i already stated, like survivors will crank out gens as fast as they can regardless if tunneling got nerfed. asking one side to slow down on their objective will never work. it has to be forced, tunneling forced to stop with nerfs, gen speeds forced to slow down with nerfs.
You cant say there is no connection with tunneling and gen speeds when a tunneler is openly saying the reason why they tunnel, the reason the started tunneling in the first place and what would make them stop tunneling. i cant speak for all tunnelers, there will be some that will tunnel regardless unless they are forced to stop but i am a tunneler and i wouldnt tunnel if gens were slowed down. i wouldnt have started tunneling if gens didnt go so fast. That is a clear connection that should not be dismissed.
Some survivors have said they gen rush as a counter to tunneling….this can be effective, do gens faster than the killer can kill. If we nerf tunneling will survivors stop rushing gens on their own? no. it works both ways and in this race of gens v kills faster side wins. It is now at the point where the game is so fast it has to be slowed down for any meaningful changes to be made, but that can no longer happen while there is a clear imbalance of slow m1 killers and speedy S tier killers. Speed will always win. Which is why tunneling will never be nerfed, or atleast not nerfed enough to make it a non tactic. S tiers speed through the hooks, survivors speed through the gens, low tier killers tunnel to keep up with the speed as they dont have rockets up their ### like a blight, thats just the way it is. nerf tunneling, S tiers will cope if forced to, low tier killers wont, not without gen speeds being nerfed too.
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@bazarama said:
Firstly, happy and peaceful New Year to all.
Survivors are complaining rightly or wrongly they constantly get put against Blight, Ghoul or Nurse.
Let's see who plays who by listing your top 3 killers by character prestige.
Mine are
Trapper (26)
Legion (16)
Ghostface (15)
i main myers and pyramid head but in my survivor matches i do get a lot of blights. ranking them be prestige doesnt mean a single thing…. someone can put all bloodpoints on a single killer or survivor and never actually play that character. When i got myers to p100 i still played as myers but any BP i got i started putting them on killers i have never touched like Artist. i even got Sable from p60 to p100 with the bloodpoints i got from playing myers.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041770#Comment_4041770
As I see it, the problem is half the give-up mentality and half that BHVR is doing nothing about it. Most of the efforts to help the survivor role this last year have been nuked, which is only making people feel worse. Even if every survivor in a bad match digs in, some matches just aren't turning around, and there's nothing to either make you feel otherwise or at least make you feel like your time wasn't wasted. It doesn't help that the survivor wincon is a personal escape and not a team win. Pretty sure we've all had those sessions where the team keeps winning but you're the only one dying. That gets aggravating and the game doesn't reward you in anyway. Even if you're the best player, all you get is a death on your record.
There is something to make you feel your time isnt wasted in every match. its called practice, each match a survivor gets chased is an opportunity to hone those looping skills, practice stealth, learn map layouts, killer powers. There is a lot people can take away from a match if they choose to.
As for the win con….having it as a team win would only benefit SWF. Griefers and people that do challenges or just meme around in a match in soloq would have a much bigger impact if it effected the team as a whole. Currently, if a griefer is intentionally blowing gens or being annoying there is a chance someone on the team can escape even if the rest dont. Make it a team win/loss would mean far fewer wins for the solo players
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@Amanova said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041761#Comment_4041761
Nobody dodges me, I use anonymous mode and only post after the match. The problem is, I only want to play with PC users not braindead console players who apparently drunk😂, meaning only Steam/Epic and Microsoft Store users, but the game only lets me play with players from my platform when I enable crossplay off.
You're wrong about cheaters in Epic Games, I've seen it a lot (they don't have a globe icon) of them and they didn't cheat at all, and they played even good! Cheaters now mostly use pc gamepass (as u mentioned) share on the msstore because accounts there are super cheap (penny), because they say Epic Games accounts aren't that cheap anymore. I admit, I started playing DBD myself when I got it for free on Epic Games, so it was also useful for attracting legit players like me.im not saying all Epic players are cheaters and griefers, but in my experience a huge amount i come across often are. Especially if they are standard skin dwights or have something like tiktok in the name. i never played on Epic but going from pc gamepass to steam was game changing for me. console was just awful, will never go back to that lol. The problem with turning cross play off is that not only do you only get matched with people on your current platform but it only matches you with people on your platform that also have crossplay turned off. if others have it on you wont be matched with them even if they are on your platform. q times on steam are really bad with crossplay off because no one plays with it off
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041755#Comment_4041755
I think there are two separate issues here. First, that gen speeds have already been nerfed. They used to be faster, and things like BNP and several gen perks used to be significantly stronger than they are now. But tunneling was just as common then as it is now, and I believe the reason why leads to my second point, that everyone’s idea of a “fair” gen time is subjective. There will always be players who feel gens are too fast, even if they took ten minutes minimum each.
Gens and tunneling should not be treated the same because they’re driven by player choice. Killers who tunnel wouldn’t stop doing so if gens took four times longer, just like survivors wouldn’t stop doing gens even if there was one left and the killer had zero hooks.
To OP: As far as Asians servers go, I know it’s very competitive in comparison to many other servers. The survivor rate is much higher there, but the kill rates are still healthy as well. I’m not sure what they could do to change that without completely impacting the balance for several other servers across other countries. But I am sorry for those that don’t want such a highly competitive scene.
i agree gen speeds have been nerfed in the past but clearly not enough. some people will tunnel regardless of gen speeds regardless if they need to tunnel or not. killers like blight and nurse dont need to tunnel, they are S tier killer so dont have issues keeping up with gen speeds. lower tier killers struggle more and often do need to tunnel. simply nerf tunneling at the same nerf gen speeds. force killers to not tunnel, force survivors to take longer on gens. its the only way to balance it. Asking killers to not tunnel wont work, asking for survivors to slow down on the gens wont work. both need to be forced.
i base this on myself and my experience. i play mid tier killers and always have. starting out i did ok playing by the survivor rule book. i didnt tunnel, camp, slug…i spread hooks and played "fair". After a a while, i noticed i wasnt getting solo players any more, i was getting SWF teams that worked gens efficiently pretty often. i suddenly went from doing ok to losing match after match because i couldnt keep up. i tunneled, i started winning some matches. The reason i tunnel is directly related to the speed gens fly when people actually do them. So when people say they want tunneling nerfed…. not going to happen while gens fly like they do unless the devs want to nuke the kill rates of majority of the killer roster.
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@Amanova said:
I'm as an epic games player forced to play as a solo with them since off cross there are not enough epic games users, they are so bad that matches end at 4-5 matches even against mediocre killerss
The problem is Epic players have a bad rep due to Epic being commonly used by cheaters. Many people on steam will lobby dodge epic players for this reason.
i first started on console, then played on pc gamepass but a lot of steam players say i had a globe and could type in chat so assumed i was Epic player and dodged. now i play on steam. people still lobby dodge but not as much because they can now see im on steam and can see my profile.
I wish i could say these views of Epic players have no basis but unfortunately, i have also noticed the majority of Epic players are cheaters or griefers. last night, my first match of the year, 2 Epic players griefing, body blocking to trap the team next to a gen. not long before that, Epic player was cheating using hacks. they get banned and just make a new account on Epic.
My advice, move away from Epic and get the game on steam…its far better, less people dodge and you can see peoples profile and interact more with the community.
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Thats the issue across the board on every server. Gens fly, killers struggle to keep up, killers tunnel, survivors complain.
when killers say "nerf gen speeds so we don't need to tunnel". the answer is always "no, gens are boring, we don't want to spend more time doing them"
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041658#Comment_4041658
There are ways of knowing where survivors are.
Crows, scratch marks, loud noise notifications, and sheer line of sight are all ways of knowing where survivors are, and then there are ways of minimising guesswork like going to places where survivors were shown to be while you were in chase.
Yes, pre-running is a thing, but it only lessens the value of spreading pressure, it doesn't remove it.I'm not sure where the binary of strong versus weak looper came from here though, genuinely. Why assume the survivor on the hook is the weak link and that all the other survivors are strong loopers…?
It's just as likely that everyone in the match is roughly equivalent when it comes to looping, and even more likely that only one survivor is actually a really strong looper and the rest are just decent.
Still, fact of the matter is, for most killers in the game strong loopers are only actually scary if they're also in strong parts of the map. All the looping skill in the world doesn't matter in a deadzone, and even strong loopers can only get so much out of weak tiles. If you avoid chasing anyone who looks like they're particularly good at looping you're definitely never going to improve, tunnelling or no tunnelling.
As for the survivors, you don't get much meaningful practice from being tunnelled since the chase starts stacked against you. Not that I'm particularly concerned with their skill development in this context, I'm speaking from the killer perspective here.on many maps line of sight isnt option, crows are useless, there are no loud noises unless close to a gen or someone messes a skill check, scratch marks wear off and only appear when survivors run. if people are already on gens they dont leave scratch marks, they dont disturb crows, so if a killer is one end of the map, there many gens people could potentially work on. if it was easy to find players i wouldnt be able to play stealth the way i do. These all seem like weak attempts to try and say low mobility killers can know where survivors are so target them instead of the weak link.
if the killer can down a player fast, they KNOW they can down that survivor fast again. it makes no sense to target someone else when there is a risk that they could be a strong looper. it makes just as much sense for a survivor to get a gen to 90% then move on to another one half way across the map when the killer is no where near the 90% gen. its actively making the game harder for no reason and creating unnecessary risks for the sake of it.
im doing fine in my matches as killer going against sweating SWF teams with tunneling, i win some i lose some. thats balance, thats how it should be. What happens when i dont tunnel? i lose match after match after match. fun? not at all. helps me improve? if it does then no where near fast enough to keep me playing. Thats why i tunnel, to balance the broken system of m1 killer v SWF on comms. before i started getting these teams i didnt tunnel at all.
Survivors can practice looping even if the odds are stacked. i did and now i can loop better for it. there was a time where i was tunneled quite a bit… i adapted, changed how i play, got better. we should be doing what we need to do, i did and both my survivor and killer matches are way more fun for it. Its a shame so many survivors in particular refuse to change, refuse to adapt, they DC, go next, give up, take the stubborn attitude of "im not using anti tunnel perks because i shouldnt have to". They often say "i just want to have fun" then complain about losing when they dont bring their A game and try as hard as the opponent.
Bottom line is, i dont see an issue, there are counters, there are drawbacks, its not 100% effective. i encourage anyone struggling as killer to tunnel if they need to…better that than quit the game out of frustration long before they "get better". And as survivor i encourage other survivors to play differently, play stealthy, if you cant loop, fine, stealth is a great alternative. But neither side should be complaining when they are counters available, there are options and choices people can make to make the game fun.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041651#Comment_4041651
The thing about that is that you shouldn't be wasting any time looking for another survivor. You should already know where another survivor is and be going straight to them.
Now, I'm not saying everyone should be at the ultra pro level where you can track all the survivors reliably just from your own game sense, that's unreasonable. If you're not at that level, a good chunk of your info about where to go should come from either perks or just going to wherever the last survivor you saw is on top of the game sense that you do have - and no shade, that's where I'm at too.
What you're describing here isn't really an inherent problem with trying to spread hooks, it's just what you hone as you get better at killer. You get better at knowing where to go, you get better at not taking the wrong chases or letting chases go on for too long, you get better at outplaying survivors, and so on.It's not an unavoidable time waste that lower tier killers just can't afford. It's part of the game's skill expression and skill curve. Reliably being able to tunnel someone out just stunts your growth as a player in this regard.
killers dont have basekit aura read for a start so killers shouldnt be able to know where survivors are. killers can guess but there is no way of knowing where they are…head to a wrong gen and thats time wasted. Thats not skill thats luck. head to a gen thats been worked on and people pre run….time wasted, especially when swf has comms that tell the team what direction the killer is heading to. as a stealth survivor i know how easy it is to work gens and disappear so the killer has no idea where i am. Even if the killer knew where the survivors are, they could be on the other side of the map doing a gen, its situational but in many situations its better time management to not waste time slowly walking to the other side of the map to encounter a pro looper near the a strong loop when the weak link is already hooked and in a weak loop area. its smart play that could have been avoided by the survivor heading to a strong loop location or being harder to catch. being able to reliably tunnel someone out shows smart gameplay, using the brain to work out if its worth tunneling that survivor or try a different target, knowing if its worth tunneling someone when they are at a strong loop location.
you say tunneling stunts growth yet you expect the killer to basically not target the weak looper and go for someone else when its the weak looper that could do with the practice in chases to improve. That stunts growth of the survivor, they wont learn to loop better because after being caught once the killer would need to target someone else which could be much stronger in chase.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041641#Comment_4041641
I think part of the issue may be that you're misunderstanding what spreading hooks actually means. It isn't specifically hooking every person twice for a perfect twelve hook game, it's just getting a hook and then going out to get another hook on another survivor, then repeating. That's all spreading hooks entails.
Every killer is capable of getting good results from a variety of playstyles + tactics by making sure not to repeatedly target the same survivor.
Obviously it is fairly difficult for most killers to arbitrarily two-hook everyone in a perfect cycle before anyone dies, but that isn't what basically anyone means when they talk about spreading hooks.
So, what needs to happen is just that tunnelling and slugging have their highest values brought in line with what you can get by spreading hooks, because they're the unbalanced thing. Slugging less so, that only needs some light reigning in (honestly the 9.3.0 PTB was basically perfect, I don't think they needed to scrap that), and tunnelling being the thing that needs more robust changes.
Then those things would be options (sans maybe tunnelling) but the value you'd get from them would be proportional to the effort you put in.Thats exactly what i mean, hooking someone then going after someone else can mean wasting valuable time traversing the map looking for the next player, or wasting valuable time going for a pro looper when the weak link is free to crank out gens like theres no tomorrow. This time waste isnt a big deal to high mobility killers but its crucial for low tier low mobility killers. you just have to look at the kill rates to see things are the way the devs aimed for 40/60 balance and that is with tunneling. its pretty clear if it was nerfed to the point its no longer that effective kill rates would highly likely drop because so many rely on it to be able to compete. The fact a killer can tunnel the 1 weak link shows a smart way to way to play which can also be detrimental to the killer if they tunnel the wrong player. That is balanced and fair. it has its advantages and disadvantages. the only ones that seem to have an issue with tunneling are the weak links but instead of improving and changing how they play to counter this common killer tactic they push for nerfs. I say this as a survivor, in my matches im often the stronger player which means the killer abandons the chase before they can tunnel me out.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041637#Comment_4041637
Like I said, the fair and balanced versions of camping and slugging involve spreading hooks.
Forcing someone through hook states without letting the survivor team rescue is not one of the fair or balanced contexts for camping, and it's been nerfed accordingly. Still doable, but an aware team can counter it.
Compare that to proxy camping to initiate a chase with someone who comes for the save, to force them a little further out of position at the start of the chase + cut down on potential lost time searching for someone. That still involves spreading hooks, and it's also the far more reasonable version of camping.Same for slugging. Bleeding everyone out isn't fair or balanced and also isn't even fun, but leaving one person on the ground so you can go chase someone else still ultimately involves spreading hooks.
My larger point, though, is more important. Even if you include all three as alternatives to spreading hooks… the sheer amount of options, tactics, and playstyles that do involves spreading hooks massively outnumbers them because spreading hooks is still the basic interaction of killer gameplay.
All stealth oriented playstyles, hit and run, totem defence, resource denial, loop zoning, M1 fundamental looping, and the million different perk builds you can lean into, all of these things involve spreading hooks because that is fundamentally just kind of the cornerstone of skilful killer play.
"Only able to spread hooks" is tantamount to "only able to play the game". It implies only that one (or three, if we accept the other two examples) option has been taken away, not that you're being railroaded into taking only one specific option.The game has so much more depth and nuance than tunnelling someone out or camping them through hook stages.
slugging someone to chase after another person is no spreading hooks. thats mass slugging and winning via getting 4 hooks. thats not the same as spreading hooks to get 12 hooks for 4k. in an ideal world yes tunneling wouldnt be a thing and killers of all tiers would be able to win by hooking each person at least twice each. But its a dream world and not practical. mainly because low tier killers with low mobility have it worse than S tiers. The devs have built the game around speed. look at ghoul and krasue. high mobility killers to compete with the gen speeds.The only ways this issue would be resolved is:
- nerf tunneling, camping and slugging so they are less effective AND nerf gen speeds at the same time to allow low mobility killers time to spread hooks. (No survivor wants that)
- nerf tunneling, camping and slugging so they are less effective then buff individual killers across the full roster that may be struggling to keep up without these tactics so they dont further buff S tiers. (the amount of time it would take to buff each killer to compensate would take years, look how long it takes the devs to do reworks and change just 1 killer like skull merchant). During this time killers would stop playing.
These are the only 2 options i could see working and both will never work. Therefore it is best to assume tunneling, slugging, camping, will always be the way it is and to learn to counter it because if people are waiting for changes they will be disappointed and have a very long wait. This would never have been a major issue if it wasnt for the high mobility S tier killers like blight. They could have done a blanket buff for all killers when they nerf tunneling but that cant happen anymore.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041631#Comment_4041631
I can't speak for OP or the person you're responding to, but two things did leap out at me about your post here.
The first is that the notion of nerfing slugging, tunnelling, and camping forcing players to not do them is sort of assuming a very specific kind of nerf that I don't think most people are even necessarily advocating for in all cases.
Sure, you'll find plenty of people who want tunnelling removed in particular, but take slugging as a counter-example here- slugging has an actually legitimate place within the game, it has contexts that are already well balanced and fair. Most people who advocate for anti-slugging changes are more concerned with reigning in its most extreme versions, like bleeding everyone out or slugging absolutely everyone before you even start hooking.Hypothetically, in those cases, it would be the case both that slugging gets nerfed to be more fair, but that players still get to choose to slug if it seems like the best call. This isn't even that much of a hypothetical, frankly- that's what we saw attempted on the 9.2 and 9.3 PTBs, even if the implementation was slightly lacking.
The second thing to mention is a bit of a misconception a lot of people have, which is that "spread hooks" is not one playstyle. It's the basic bread and butter that will be a part of literally every single playstyle that isn't specifically tunnelling, including the more fair and balanced versions of slugging and camping, which would be used to get into a more favourable chase to spread the hook states around.
Any playstyle or tactic that you'd care to bring into the trial is going to involve spreading hooks unless it's specifically the one single tactic that is defined by avoiding spreading hooks where possible. It's not actually all that limiting to only take away tunnelling in particular, you'd still have the entire rest of the game available.
not every playstyle is spreading hooks. certain killers for example dont require spreading hooks. onryo, pig for example. camping and protecting the one on hook is not tunneling or spreading hooks, its camping making sure people dont succeed in freeing them like bubba. slugging been used as a tactic that is not spreading hooks. The bread and butter of the game is to kill. how the killer gets the kills can differ depending on killer and play style. Thats what makes the game worth playing, the variety of ways people can play. so like i said, remove all 3 tactics or nerf them so they are not effective and the killer will only be able to spread hooks unless they go killers that dont need to. personally i think it would shift meta further to S tiers if all 3 tactics were nerfed to the ground and reduce the variety of killers seen in matches even further.
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041631#Comment_4041631
I don't want tunneling, camping and slugging completely removed, just disincentivized. Currently they are simply too easy to do yet have a massive payoff. Currently, killers that abuse these cheese tactics can beat survivor teams well above their experience level. Killers would still be able to tunnel, slug and camp all they want, it just wouldn't be as effective a strategy as it is now, so killers would actually have reason to spread hook states and would be rewarded more for choosing the more skillful strategy.
Tunneling/camping/slugging are far more difficult for survivors to adapt to given how little skill is required for a killer to abuse them. A baby killer can have quite a bit of success with these cheese tactics whereas the survivor team needs to have far superior game sense to counter it.
if these tactics were nerfed but not removed so people use them less then they would need to be less effective than spreading hooks. killers are already struggling to spread hooks thats why they tunnel. if you make it so the killer has to do the already difficult thing (spread hooks) and if they cant then tunnel….but its been nerfed so tunneling isnt effective anymore. pretty much pushes that tactic out as a possible option by saying if you cant do the already hard thing then try doing somthing thats less effective? the only way that would work is if spreading hooks was made easier to do but no survivor wants that either
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041614#Comment_4041614
Of course any player can technically do what's within "the rules" of the game. But…people can still argue the rules should be modified. The anti-slugging, tunneling and camping changes would have incentivized less cheese tactics and more skillful gameplay from killers. But the killer mains didn't want to bother to adapt. Instead of completely scrapping the changes in response to the social media outrage, BHVR could have tweaked the numbers to be less "punishing", while also nerfing the strongest killers and buffing the weakest killers if necessary.
so instead of potentially being forced into tunneling, you expect 3 tactics to be nerfed? would that not force people into 1 play style of spread hooks? currently people have a choice, they can tunnel, slug, camp, spread hooks if they choose to. remove 3 of those tactics and killers are only left with 1 thing to do. sounds pretty linear and 1 dimensional to me. spread hooks, if you cant do that….tough.
Why would killer mains be ok adapting to the changes when survivor mains refuse to adapt to tunneling? its not like tunneling has no downsides or counters. there even perks designed to counter it. But instead of adapting and learning to counter it they complain. its not surprising killers then took the same approach.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041610#Comment_4041610
Just cause they shouldn't be playing doesn't mean they aren't. The people who you get tilted about tbagging may very well be 12.
Some people care and some don't. You never know what you're getting. That's why I can only care so much. If I were making money streaming, or playing comp where everyone is on the same page, then cool, but until then, it's just a goofy game that I play too much of and not a single thing more.
Gonna take that answer as no, you're not satisfied.
im just a player, im not a dev. its not my reasonability to monitor peoples ages that play. im not going to treat everyone like a child just incase they are. i play, i win. dont care who they are
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@TheSaltySaloon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041596#Comment_4041596
So if you play a basic M1 killer you should be “forced” to tunnel? That’s the solution?
not forced, some people can do ok as m1 killer without tunneling. but for someone that cant do very well and wants to win….yes, tunnel. do what needs to be done within the rules of the game. Thats what i do on both sides and i have minimal issues as survivor and killer.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041603#Comment_4041603
Yeah, you're right, I do not understand. It's a game, not a war. The people you play with and against are often kids. "At all costs" is a wild approach to gaining internet points that have no value and no one cares about. You're not even playing comp, where people at least jave the same mindset. You're proud of one upping players who probably don't even care that they lost.
But if you're the one that gets tunneled and the other three walk out, you're satisfied?
its pvp the entire concept is player v player….not coop. dbd is rated 17+ so if young kids are playing it thats not on me. i think in uk there are certain platforms that actually require the player to hold an adult account before they can play the game. im proud of winning yes. If people dont care they lost then it makes every complaint about not being able to win void because why complain they cant win if they dont care?
like i said i play to win, i make sure im not the one tunneled out first. If there is one thing i can rely on in dbd its the mindless sometimes idiotic things people can and will do in matches that will result in their death. unhooking too soon, giving up, making too many mistakes, their loss is my gain. i view anything in life the same way. work hard, win, enjoy the satisfaction of my hard work paying off.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041592#Comment_4041592
You find gens boring but you don't want to engage with any other aspect of the game? What is the point of winning an unfun game?
you might not understand it but some people enjoy winning…at all costs. i do what i need to do to win. the satisfaction i get at the end is whats fun. When the tunneling killer gets 1k and 3 of us walk out the gate because we actually did the objective…thats what i play for. when my team do nothing all match and give up while i get the hatch….thats what i play for.
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well if you play a "fair" m1 killer then maybe. Thats why people tunnel. If you as killer are having silly fun as m1 killer instead of using S tier killer, meta perks or harsh tactics to compensate then you cant complain if you lose.
Likewise, as survivor, if your playing "fair", having fun with other team mates, generally having a laugh then you cant complain that a killer is steamrolling you.
Harsh reality is this…. if you want to win, sometimes you need to be ruthless, you need to do what needs to be done. This applies to both sides. killers may need to tunnel or use S tier killers with meta perks. Survivors may need to play more sneaky or selfish.
If you dont care about winning then there is no issue, have your fun, mess around, lose the match and move on.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041585#Comment_4041585
Most intense players find sitting on gens uninteresting and not a test of skill. And in my experience, these squads will have one gen jockey with a gen build slamming gens while the others try to do pallet saves and use things like MfT, DH, WGLF, and Soul Guards to waste the killers time with endless Endurance. It can be pretty effective if you aren’t used to dealing with it. But soloqers aren't playing like this.
intense players yes, they do think gens are pretty boring but again they are not looking for the win specifically. they looking for fun first and foremost. the fun being the intention to get chased and prevent the killer from hooking. same with the head-on locker teams. a while back there were 3 of them doing it on hawkins and 1 on gen. after i ignored the 3 and went for the one on gens the other 3 straight up DC. No different to sabo squads.
i find gens boring but i crank them out asap if need be because i do what i need to do to win.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041569#Comment_4041569
The definition of tunneling is targeting one person to repeat-hook them and get rid of them quickly. I'm doing the opposite. If I rehooked this freshly unhooked AFK that would quite literally be tunneling since they were my last hook. I'm going to ignore them and go for the unhooker, as I would whether they were AFK or not. That's what plenty of killers do. I've had many instances where I've stepped away for a second while on hook thinking I had longer only to come back and see the killer do the honorable thing and run right past me. If you're a halfway decent player, you don't need to down someone who's just standing there.
I reenagage with these people once they reengage. And I mean the team can win, not the individual specifically. I know you don't get it, but some of us view survivor as a team effort.
so you ignore unhooked survivor, you go for the active player… they get unhooked, you come across the afk player and the recently unhooked player. you ignore them both? you said you wouldnt go for the afk player and going for the one just unhooked would be tunneling.
interesting, you seem to dislike rats but a rat just needs to go afk and not bother and you will leave them alone.
You can view the survivor role however you want but viewing it as such doesnt mean it is that way. you can view a win as surviving 20seconds in chase if you wish but doesnt mean thats a win for everyone.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041574#Comment_4041574
when casuals can beat a try hard player then what happens what happens when both sides try hard?
So it's fine when I as a casual killer beat tryhard aggressive sabo squads, but it's not okay when casual survivors beat killers on the same level as them becuase they're in a party? Again, I'm not likely to beat a killer who is much better than me. I often can't beat ones that are much worse, thanks to cheese tactics.
try hard aggressive sabo squads is not trying hard to win. quite the opposite actually, if they trying that hard to do that they are not doing gens. A casual killer just looking for fun and meme around shouldnt be able to beat a try hard team that is going for the win like gen rushing teams….people that actually do the objective
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041574#Comment_4041574
You are conflating try harding with skill. I have faced many try harding killers that were terrible at the role, same for survivors. Just because you are playing in a try hard fashion doesn't mean you are skilled and just because you are skilled doesn't mean you are try harding, some ability simply becomes muscle memory and unless you go out of your way to tamp that down you will still play better.
that would be an issue with matchmaking though. the idea is that matchmaking matches people with similar skill level. my point still stands, if a killer is trying hard to win v the survivors they have been matched with, regardless of the skill level…if the survivors are not trying hard then they cant complain about losing. if they wanted to win then why not try harder? Its the whole mentality of entitlement, wanting to bring as little as possible to the match, no items, no perks, mess around with the team…they end up getting killed and its like "killers are op using unfair tacticts that cant be countered". Sorry but no, skill or no skill, if you want to win you should try and if you dont win enough, try harder. When you are trying hard and still lose then complain but casuals are not trying to win
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041568#Comment_4041568
Why do you think that's an issue? And what do you suppose should be done about it? Is it really an issue that requires dev intervention?
How could it not be an issue? when casuals can beat a try hard player then what happens what happens when both sides try hard? killers are already losing to casuals that dont really bother so when they get people actually try it tips the balance.
it makes sense that if you want to win you should compete and try. if you dont try to win then you shouldnt be able to win unless both sides are not trying to win,
i think anyone that says they want casual fun matches and be able to mess around, bring whatever perks they want and do whatever they want then complains they never win should accept if they want to have fun and mess around meming, thats fine but you cant expect to win aswel if the killer doesnt want to play the same way as the survivors and just wants to win.
As for what can be done about it? nothing….some will play casually just for fun, some will play competitively and go for the win. people just shouldnt complain about losing if they are not trying hard.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041537#Comment_4041537
You're right, I don't want useless teammates, but I still play exactly the same in solo as I do in swf. I'm going to unhook, I'm going to take hits, I'm going to give the killer free hooks to try to save a tunnel target. I will try to help people not have a bad time and I will die for it. Playing the way you say you do, being selfish and letting people die on purpose, is exactly why people are so discontent. You're exacerbating what you're complaining about.
And I'm the same as killer. Those under hook AFKs? And the ones who chase me to die? I usually swerve on them, and they generally end up reengaging. They often do well afterwards to. Sometimes they escape too, and that's cool. It's a video game. I'm not trying to make people miserable.
By not engaging with these people that you consider trying to go next is exactly what tunneling is lol. avoiding survivors to go after someone else….thats the very definition of tunneling. The other thing that amounts to tunneling is the fact that you even say the ones that are afk or dont even bother not only dont get targeted but they can also win by doing so. so essentially you tunnel as a killer without even realising it
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041541#Comment_4041541
Just because you're casual doesn't mean you don't want to win, some people are just trying harder than others. Going against different types of opponenets is part of working your way up, if that's your goal. I go against parties way more intense, aggressive, and coordinated than me as surv and I generally win against these types and I'm not a tryhard. It's not some impossible task. And when I get outplayed, I learn. That's how it goes.
and you dont see an issue with the fact that that people are actively trying to win and trying hard to do so but still get beaten by people casually playing the game not even that bothered if they win?
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@Amanova said:
I swear they are blind and as usually braindead 😁and always lead killers to my gen giving him free pressure🤬
even when they know your working on a gen they will still head to you because they want to get the killer to chase someone else. "killer is chasing is me, someone is over there doing a gen…..do i go away from the gen worker or head to them and hope the killer goes for them instead". i just walk away and do a different gen, if they get hooked they get hooked….if they get saved they get saved but im going to do my gen lol
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041527#Comment_4041527
You've heard my take, brother, many times.
That's a bizarre question. If you're a tryhard you'll end up in upper MMR. I couldn't care less what happens up there in psycho town. If it's all comp 4mans with clock callouts and tunneling, slugging killers they can absolutely have one another. The conversation around the game shouldn't be about its tiniest percentile. People in parties should be able to win against people on their levels, same sa anyine else. I'm not going to win against a tunneling p100 Blight whether I'm in a party or not.
But as far as I'm concerned, a comp 4man should be the dominant force in this game if they're all that good, as killers are the dominant force at every other level. The 4mans aren't though, because plenty of killer-players have 80-90% KRs and can clearly deal with these teams.
But a killer needs to work their way up to high mmr….during this process they will go against people of all skill levels. the killer will be trying to win. So if there is a team of casuals that are only interested in having fun with the rest of the team, you think they should still be able to win v a killer that is actively trying to win to work towards higher ranks?