pseudechis
pseudechis
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481283#Comment_3481283
None of those are core mechanical principles, they're perks. In the same vein, you could argue that the killer has plenty of comeback mechanisms in the shape of perks like Rancor, NOED, Blood Warden, No Way Out and more.
You make a fair point but there is nothing wrong with the endgame being just as threatening as the early game as a standard.
I mean that kind of excitement makes DBD fun.
Remember the damned if you do damned if you don't scenario that was DS/UB meta in the endgame.
You can't be picked up but you also can't be left on the ground and either way to get to run/crawl out the gate with impunity.
It was great to feel invincible as survivor but the lack of any real endgame threat was a bad thing.
A bit of campy playing off the hook grab kept things exciting in the endgame.
Do I go for an incredibly risky save or do I save myself and exit? These are the hard choices that you should have to make in a game like DBD.
Every time they make things safer they chip away at what makes this game great.
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Devour Hope is one of my favorite perks, I typically get a lot of traction out of it before its discovered and cleansed. Not always but often enough that I run it a lot. Especially on killers with no insta down ability.
Its a regular on my Trapper loadout.
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Yeah some of this is busted but you eat the loss and go down in MMR so you don't face teams like this.
I still wish MMR adjusted down as quickly as it seems to adjust upward though I feel like you eat a lot more losses to get comfortable games compared to the wins that take you beyond your comfort zone.
Because frankly when played really competitively DBD can be kinda bland on both sides.
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Real gen rush doesn't even exist anymore.
Gone are the days of 1 gen being finished then 4x gens popping in rapid succession over the span of 30s thanks to how original BNP worked.
Focusing on gens isn't really "gen rushing" its just prioritizing the objective.
If people want to maximize objective progression that's what they are going to do prioritize the objective.
Survivors will smash gens asap AKA "gen rushing", killers will go for as early an elimination as possible AKA "tunneling"
What baffles me is how people still think this is some sort of anomaly, this is the game as its always been when played competitively. A lot of people play very competitively.
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I'm afraid the common misconception that tunneling will punish other players isn't really a punishment at all, its just gameplay.
The first step is to drop the precept that tunneling isn't "fair". Do survivors stop working on a near complete gen so you can regress it a bit first? no they finish gens as efficiently as possible, asking them to do otherwise would be nuts.
You are allowed to get hooks and kills in the same way if you want. Just because someone gets eliminated first or quickly doesn't make the play unfair. In fact against a highly efficient team its often the best play and deciding when to take advantage of it is part of killer strategy.
Yes getting post game abuse from giant emotional babies is crap but getting agitated over it can be just as crap.
Why ruin your own game with a negative mindset. This is how player toxicity breeds and perpetuates, and you don't strike me as a toxic person based on this thread. You can't fight toxicity with toxicity as it'll just ruin your own fun and its a game its meant to be fun.
Tunnel if you like, but do it because it's just legit gameplay and you can if you want. It's often the right play against highly efficient teams and ignore anyone who feels the need to tantrum at you over it, it says more about them than you.
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I like having to plan out my hooks to not wind up with a dead space on the map where I can't hook people.
I also like having that dead space be an optimal place to try and lead the killer to in order to avoid being hooked.
Seems like the number 1 gripe people have with it is having to bleed out if you can't reach a hook. Well then there is a bleed out timer so that ends too.
Its all rather neatly packaged I think.
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@NoOneKnowsNova said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3478474#Comment_3478474
I don't understand it either. It's a very outdated mechanic to say the least.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3478479#Comment_3478479
If that's really what it is then that's petty, even more so when you consider the things that were said by them.
It is very petty and it would be my hope that players with this mindset are in the extreme minority.
But even watching a lot of streamer's behaviour online, the concept that another player is out to ruin the fun based solely on game outcome is very prevalent.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
I think the solution will be removing dc penalties. So instead of killing yourself, they will dc and bots will replace them.
I don't support this tho. But there is no any solution i can think for hook suicides.
Removing DC penalties isn't a solution.
The penalty is a good thing because without it you get mass quitters who drop out the second they see anything they don't like.
Downed first, particular map, particular killer, an offering or lack of offering, you name it people use it to justify quitting.
Players who do that on a regular basis should be locked out of playing to dissuade the behaviour. Its a good thing.
Just because a bot may take your place with a DC doesn't just mean its ok to blanket DC. Also killer bots aren't really a thing yet so are we only giving a free DC pass to survivor players with this proposal?
The only way I see to prevent hook suicides is to rework how self unhook attempts affect hook timers. How to do that without taking away the risk/cost of self unhook or just removing self unhook altogether I'm not sure.
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@NoOneKnowsNova said:
Just the other day survivor did something similar against me...they crawled to a corner where it was too far for me to carry them to any hook.
They then proceeded to message me saying I must be depressed and that I should do certain things to myself, before claiming what I did was bannable only for them to block me when I proved otherwise.
I don't get why people do this ;-;
I think a lot of it stems from a lack of emotional maturity and the modern day phenomenon of identifying oneself as a perpetual victim.
"I'm angry I lost, its your fault that I'm angry, I'm a victim of your malicious intent to make me angry and am justified to abuse you over it outside of the game."
I'm not saying it always boils down to this but I'm sure it accounts for a lot of it.
Just look at all the self proposed victims on the forums making post after post about how their game is constantly being ruined by others. Why? well its solely because their opponents are angry and out to ruin their fun obviously.
Its nuts that people get so worked up over a game.
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Honestly no, not even a 1 or 0k. The win/loss aspect of DBD doesn't really come into it for me.
It comes back to that old Caddyshack gag "If you don't keep score how do you measure yourself against other players?"... The answer "by height"
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All playstyles are still possible there is just less to them.
That's basically what it boils down to less mechanics resulting in less interaction.
More built in perks that result in less perk variance and less variability in games.
Ce la vie is it going to ruin or kill the game... no.
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@LittleBigSunset said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467389#Comment_3467389
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/US1GHRH63SD2/fttt-w6wuacx9rr.jpg
I'll bite. What's 'fun' about it for killers?
There's nothing to bite, its not bait.
In answer to your question basically its fun to role play the monster.
There is a reason role playing is popular... its fun... and to do that in DBD it can be rather vicious, but completely acceptable.
There is a projection of power element to it, which I'm sure even you enjoy too as a player. Its really fun when the killer can't catch you isn't it, that's the same projection of power.
We are wired to enjoy that kind of competitive win and while some may take it further than others, its still within the limits of the game rules and as such allowable play. Something that someone should expect to face when signing up for a game of DBD..
Killer is billed as the big scary antagonist and to project power as the big scary antagonist in that role can be a lot of fun. To try and escape from that same threatening monster can be just as fun.
Lastly if you have a preconceived set of arbitrary rules that define "good play." (As highlighted below from your OP)
"I've always been of the notion 'you scratch my back, I scratch yours'. If you're toxic to me, I'll be less inclined to make sure you have a fun time. But the teams I've been with have just been playing normally. It's like these killers are going into the match with the sole aim of generating salt and spoiling the match for everyone else."
You've also stated that there are clear times to apply your arbitrary rule set...
"I've played enough now to know the difference between playing to generate pressure (camping when you are surrounded by survs, tunnelling someone to claw back pressure) and playing to just be nasty."
So anything outside of your accepted play must be a malicious attack on your fun right?..
ie. "It's like these killers are going into the match with the sole aim of generating salt and spoiling the match for everyone else."
I would posit the notion that facing a player hell bent on playing the killer role to its fullest can be just as fun and exciting as facing a killer who plays in a more measured fashion.
As I've said before nothing wrong with a discussion about something you dislike and whether or not its good for the game... but that's not what you are doing here is it? If it is then you framed it very poorly.
Calling everyone who doesn't conform to your personal arbitrary ruleset spiteful and out to purposefully ruin your fun is just plain nuts.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467192#Comment_3467192
It’s easier with teamwork but survivors can technically prosper alone. While I have many different survivor builds, I’ve got an entire survivor build dedicated to making sure I get out alive. It’s solo player geared and works.
For sure its very possible to build for a more solo survivor experience and is often a good idea if not playing SWF, I was speaking more generally when people use the blanket "X is easier" point.
I wouldn't say either side is easier overall just they are challenging in different ways and some people find one easier than the other.
Personally I find killer easier than survivor but I play a lot more killer.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467417#Comment_3467417
Fearmonger is best anti-gen perk ever then?
I don't think exhaustion needs nerf or change. They added this effect for only one reason: You can't stack strong perks and use together (SB, Lithe, BL etc.).
Exhaustion effect is fine as it is, no need to nerf it.
I'm not saying it needs a change just throwing some ideas around given people often complain about exhaustion perks for various reasons.
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@ElodieSimp said:
We need more in-door maps. I wish Hawkins was the only map in the game.
I miss Hawkins lab it was such a good map.
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I don't think the exhaustion perks need nerfs but maybe exhaustion itself should have a greater impact.
You are slower when it comes to tasks, repairing, healing, cleansing when exhausted.
Exhaustion perks remain situational and powerful but come with objective progression cost of exhaustion.
Exhaustion exists purely to stop players chaining a balanced into a sprint burst into a lithe, for a bajillion points of uber speed. Maybe its time it did more.
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I haven't faced it enough yet to really have a full opinion but I have to admit, Made for this is making me consider getting the new chapter as its dose look very strong.
For those making an "its still slower than blood lust" argument, sure it is but getting a chase to blood lust is kinda the survivor goal it typically means the killer has sunk too much time into the chase already and is losing momentum game wise.
I'd say a cap for made for this is probably inevitable simply because it does a lil too much for little to no cost.
Thematically it doesn't make a lot of sense either as while the threat of being stabbed with a machete would make you run hard and run fast, the actual act of getting stabbed with a machete would probably slow you down somewhat. But here its good to be injured, feels off somehow.
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467052#Comment_3467052
and yet bloodlust resets after hits, breaking pallets, losing chase for a few seconds, and many killer powers.
Maybe MfT should deactivate once a pallet is dropped or window vaulted?
Now you are a thinker aren't you? 👍️
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DBD shines when it plays out like the slasher films it seeks to emulate.
The nastier it feels to play killer the better.
The more desperate it feels to play survivor the better.
That's why I like DBD it can be a really horrifying experience which is both thematically and mechanically great.
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@LittleBigSunset said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467245#Comment_3467245
You are blowing this way out of proportion.
What does the killer get if they choose to bleed someone out instead of hooking them? What do they get if they beat me on the hook? What do they get if they choose to facecamp one survivor from the beginning of the game, ignoring the other survivors and leaving generators undefended?
They don't get points. They don't come any closer to 'winning'. So why do they do it? The only conclusion I can draw is that they do it to spoil the other person's experience. Nobody wants to be BM'd for playing a game. Nobody wants their cakes to be wasted and to only be able to play the game for a minute and a half before being facecamped and forced to sit on the hook and wait to die. Nobody wants to wait four minutes to bleed to death when there are hooks everywhere around them. There is NO logical reason other than spite. So why shouldn't I disdain the killers that play that way?
It's annoying that I need to emphasise this again, but I am NOT talking about typical gameplay. Playing to a killer's strengths is absolutely fine. Playing to win is fine. If it comes to a stage where you need to camp for a kill, fine. Tunnel someone out, fine. Playing to ruin the other player's experience while having it contribute nothing to your overall strategy is just uncalled for. It's bad manners. And unfortunately (I wish I was exaggerating) it is all I've run into. I've actually uninstalled and don't even know if I can be bothered to come back, and that's saying a lot during an event.
A game of DBD may involve getting eliminated early, getting left on the ground, being unable to participate... these are the legitimate gameplay threats you face as survivor and they are the reason you are trying to escape.
Yes you earn blood points, ranks etc but the core of the game is to avoid elimination and non-participation. If either of these two things are triggering then DBD may not be the game for you.
To claim that these scenarios are nothing more than people out to ruin others fun is blowing things out of proportion.
"The only conclusion I can draw is that they do it to spoil the other person's experience." <- This right here is my point.
It can be fun to play the monster as depicted in the game, the killer can have fun doing it. It may not give tangible in game benefit but it can be fun. It can be fun to face such a challenge and trying your hardest to escape such a fate, its the fun of playing survivor.
I don't mind if someone really plays the killer role because hey its what I signed up for, to try and escape from a vicious monster.
Its fine not to like the gameplay, its fine to complain about the gameplay, but to assume that the gameplay exists purely to ruin your fun because you don't like it, so anyone doing it is out to purposefully ruin your fun...
(I.E. "The only conclusion I can draw is that they do it to spoil the other person's experience," or "killers going out of their way to play nasty for no reason other than spite"
Frankly that's BS and just a gross overreaction to the gameplay in question.
At the risk of sounding confrontational the only thing evidently spiteful here is your opinion of those who play in a way that you don't like.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467245#Comment_3467245
You’re looking too logically into things that are emotionally charged.
People understand that things like Bubba camping hooks and killers tunneling early are valid strategies and the logical choice if you really want to play to win. If humans had no emotions, this is how every game would be played. But that’s not how it works, these games suck when it comes to feeling. No one on the opposing side enjoys these games. That’s why people complain. You wait in a lobby for 3-5 minutes just to get 1 minute of actual gameplay followed by waiting to die and then wait in the lobby again. No one likes wasting their time. And before you hit me with the “not everyone thinks like this” I’m inclined to say the majority share this sentiment.
We’ve had this discussion before, and while I appreciate your optimistic viewpoint and perspective (you seem like a really good dude) the reality is that a lot of killers do these tactics to get a reaction out of people. Playing like this doesn’t mean they’re a horrible person, but it doesn’t mean that I and others can’t express disdain towards this playstyle (if you could even call it that).
Yeah but disdain the playstyle not the person is my point.
Its fine to say "I don't like this" but that is different from saying "anyone who does this is scummy".
A discussion on whether legitimate mechanics are generally "healthy" for the game or not is different from a discussion about "how my opponents are nothing but spiteful"
Inability to separate these two things is what makes the DBD community as "toxic" as it is.
Its also what gets the reaction and fuels those who do play like this for that reaction.
Because lets face it, the event itself hardly justifies the level of emotional weight people often place on it and a lot of it is just gameplay.
Lastly yeah I'm sure we've even disagreed on things too, but the joy of civilized discussion is we can disagree and still harbor no real animosity toward one another. My motivation to play and interpretation of what's fun in game may be vastly different from yours but I still hope we are both having fun most of the time. (I say most of the time as the idea it will be fun all of the time is a stretch and with something as trivial as the outcome of an online game then it really is not what happens that matters but how to react to it).
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Just chains of hate in general.
I felt that DBD was at it's high point during chains of hate.
The last truly great chapter all round.
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map variety is not a bad thing.
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I'd like to see more classical monsters as DBD killers.
Sure they are rather cliche at this point but the reason they are cliche is because they are amazing and basically every modern version of them mimics the classical tropes.
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Then don't bring it, you aren't obligated to bring cake and someone else isn't obligated to play how you want just because you did.
It always amazes me how people think event offerings somehow imposes a strict ruleset of gameplay that needs to be rigidly adhered to.
Lastly please bring more The Game offerings I burned all mine and now don't have any good indoor maps for scratched mirror Myers fun.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467173#Comment_3467173
It’s not hard to infer peoples intentions when they play the way OP described. Slugging people for 4 minutes, hitting and facecamping on first hook, hard tunneling at 4-5 gens. Tunneling and camping can be valid strategies but the situation OP pointed out is nothing but BM
Well yeah it is very easy to infer and assume, that's why people do it.
I'm not happy with what happened in that game so I'll justify my unhappiness by imagining the worst about my opponent.
I use that assumption to attach a bunch of emotional imperative to game mechanics and demonize anyone who doesn't meet the standard of play that I've set for myself.
That's basically what the OP has done with examples of the play they think is not ok. The very first lines state this "My experience with this event has been awful the last few days. I main survivor, and pretty much more than half of my games have involved killers going out of their way to play nasty for no reason other than spite."
According to the OP... spite is the only reason someone would play like this.
Just to point to one popular example, camping Bubba. Bubba hook defends well, very well and defending your hooks as bubba can win you a lot of games for various reasons so its a common play.
Does it mean your opponent is a horrible person out to ruin your fun?
Could it be someone just playing into the strengths of their chosen killer with no further malice beyond a desire to win as easily as possible?
The answer is you don't know, but you can easily assume the answer you want and feel self justified in your anger about it.
Because lets face it playing to the strength of your chosen killer in order to win as easily as possible doesn't make someone spiteful, but we'll imagine they are because we didn't like it and anyone doing something we don't like must be spiteful... right?
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@humanbeing1704 said:
ah I remember the original spirit discussions
“just use iron will bro”
”just run spine chill to counter prayer beads”
I miss facing old spirit because she was such a pot luck guessing game.
That level of random variance and unpredictability made her very scary to face. I miss it for those very reasons.
I fully understand how people felt it wasn't fair but it wasn't really meant to be, sadly with making killer powers more predictable and obvious they have watered down the scare factor of the game.
Which is a shame.
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The concept that people keep missing here is survivor requires teamwork.
Effective teamwork can be hard to come by when its among a bunch of strangers with varied skill, experience and motivation especially in an online environment.
Both sides are challenging in their own way.
Killer challenges stem from managing the game on your own and maintaining control of the game
Survivor challenges stem from cooperating effectively to take control of the game from the killer.
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To play devils advocate a lil here, did the killer player message/chat after the game saying their intention was to ruin everyone's fun?
Because that's really the only confirmation you have that the intent of the player was a spiteful attempt to ruin your fun.
You can perhaps infer that the intent was a spiteful attack on fun, because there are people whom find certain play styles "unfun".
But frankly trying to apply a rigid collection of arbitrary rules that you have imposed on yourself game wise (and in the process of doing so attached moral imperative to those rules meaning anyone else who doesn't follow them is evil and out to ruin the fun) is a really bad way to approach the game. Its like a recipe for ruining your own enjoyment.
Because people will play in all manner of ways and if they aren't breaking the game rules then its all just legitimate gameplay.
Also an event, and bringing event bonus items, doesn't obligate anyone to play a certain way or treat you a certain way.
So if you go into games with the expectation that people will play how you want them to and/or bring the items you want them to, then you are setting yourself up for a miserable experience, even more so during an event.
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Who the killer player chooses to chase is entirely up to them.
There is no need to justify how you want to play, just play.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/380552/surviving-really-that-bad
The problem is that multiple different people will have multiple different definitions of this exact thing. For example.
Tunneling:
- Is it tunneling if someone intentionally goes after the person who was just unhooked and completely ignores everyone and everything else? Most would say yes.
- But, when if i'm doing that because the person just used deliverance before i left the area, is that still tunneling?
- What about when someone immediately unhooked them before i could even fully walk away and then i go for the unhooker, but the unhooked guy forces me to hit them by body blocking?
- What about when i hook someone in a dead zone, and then i start chasing someone else, but the person i start chasing is running to an area of the map with shack linked to a jungle gym, linked to the fun bus? Should i throw the game to chase that other guy? Or go after the weak one who was just unhooked. Is that tunneling?
- What if i'm using a perk combination like Remember me and we are near endgame and i need to remove the obsession. Is that tunneling?
- What if i saw the survivor immediately went back to a generator instead of healing themselves or getting healed because they wanted to "tunnel" the gen. Is that still tunneling if i go after them?
Camping:
- Is it camping if i play leatherface and sit there waiting to chainsaw anyone? Most would say yes.
- But, if i'm playing trapper and i hook someone in basement and place a bunch of traps that someone steps in while i'm away. Is that still camping?
- What if i'm playing hag, and place a couple of traps near the hook, then they go off and i teleport. Is that still camping?
- What if i'm using a MYC build and demogorgon, and teleport over just as the unhook happens to instadown the unhooker?
- What if i downed a survivor who was hiding nearby to get the save and they didn't realize i saw them while i was hooking. If i stay there because i have 2 survivors there, am i still camping? At that point, if i pick up the survivor, i'm giving the others a free unhook. And 2 survivors can't completely 5 gens by themselves before the timer runs out, so its a good play to make in that case.
- If we hit endgame, and the gates are 99'ed and i hook someone and camp them, is that still camping? (hint: a lot of people still think this is "camping", but i don't. i mean, what else am i supposed to do at that point, i have no other objective)
Slugging:
- Is it slugging if i down all 4 survivors and let them bleed out for 4 minutes? Most would say yes.
- But, what if i'm using a build specifically for slugging, using knock out, and infectious fright, and so on, is that still "slugging"? There are perks literally designed for it...
- What if i'm playing Oni, and i down someone with my power, but i know someone is nearby, is that slugging?
- What if i down someone, and i know someone is going to go for the flashlight or pallet save so i go after them. Is that slugging?
- What if it is the last remaining survivor, and they ran to a corner where there are no hooks and get downed, knowing it is impossible to hook them. Is that slugging?
- What if i'm playing a killer that has a timed power, and i down someone, such as t3 myers. And i know someone else is nearby, is that slugging?
- What if a gen is about to be completed and i see survivors working on it, and i just down a survivor, is that slugging?
The reality is, there are people that exist that would answer yes to every single one of those. And then there are people that exist that would say No to the majority of them. The reality of the situation though is? Why assign subjective labels to anything, when the goal is the same. The killer is playing to win. They are using the strategy they think is going to give them the highest odds of winning the game.
I would suggest reading the free e-book "Playing to Win" by Game designer David Sirlin:
https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introduction
Here is an except from the book that exemplifies this exact "issue" imo.
Introducing...the Scrub
The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.
In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.
At the end of the day, anyone complaining about these tactics, is simply a scrub. Because these tactics have counters, and these tactics are counters to certain things that survivors do. The reason that tunneling, and camping and slugging is working, is because the survivors let it work, by making a bad decision. You can argue that these things are "unfun" or "boring" or anything else you want, but the killer is playing to win. If those tactics are "unfun" and "boring" and whatever else. The person you should be directing your anger toward, is not the player using them. It is the developers who allow such tactics to exist.
good read 👍️
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It does happen just not as much as people like to think it happens.
When you hyper-focus on the negative, which the community does a lot of on these forums, you tend to see the negative everywhere.
There are also some pretty loose definitions of what constitutes camping and tunneling amongst the player base.
So if you broaden your definitions as wide as possible you are able to see it every game no matter what happens. Then you can blame it for any outcome you don't like and your ego remains intact even in the face of loss.
You can then demand changes even unhealthy or ridiculously over powered ones with impunity because "camping and tunneling are everywhere and its ruining the game" ooooh boogie boogie beware the camping tunnellers they are out to ruin your fun oohhh..
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Lol time for survivors to be able to auto escape for free from any of the mechanics that they may have to face in game.
You didn’t think this one through did you?
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@Lost_Boy said:
Tunneling is a very loose term thrown about by survivors a lot when they lose a game.
For example tonight on my very last game I got some salty survivor in end game chat hurling abuse at me because I apparently tunneled Dwight out the game.
The team had 2 gens left before Dwight decided to DC on his deathhook and I already purposely left him on the ground after downing him for a third time to get picked up by his teammates when they had 3 gens left. I mean I actually gave him an extra life and allowed him to run away and get healed up.
Can't really do much more than that & obviously when you're on 2 gens with 4 survivors somebody needs to go asap.
Survivors definition of tunnelling has a very broad spectrum in this game & I bet half the people who complain about tunnelling aren't even getting tunnelled. Probably just some salty player that can't handle losing.
I don't play survivor that often but when I do I might get someone tunnelling me once every five games or so. Suck it up & move on.
Yeah this is part of the problem. The idea of tunneling has become a rather non descript excuse that can be used to cushion the ego over loss.
There are scenarios where targeting the same survivor makes the most sense and a lot of them are initiated by survivor play, not killer play.
A lot of the tunneling discussion equates simply to someone wanting their opponent to make bad choices that don't benefit them and being angry when they don't accommodate that expectation.
Which frankly is nuts.
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Because its not against the game rules and if a player wants to go for a 4k, which they are allowed to do, then slugging the 3rd player over hooking them gives them more time to do so.
Your own example demonstrates this, the killer had a 4 min window to catch the last survivor and they needed it so slugging the 3rd was the best play at the time.
You simultaneously asked and answered your own question.
Did they deserve the win?... well... yeah they do... the killer stuck it out for the whole chase and caught the last survivor while you bled out... so yes kudos to them for catching everyone.
They made the sensible play to slug and give themselves as much time as possible to catch the last survivor.
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@JarheadLLC said:
I play both sides. I feel no remorse for playing how I play on either side. That's what the game is about, doing whatever it takes to survive as a survivor. Doing whatever it takes to 4k as killer. You people got to stop thinking the opposition is playing for your enjoyment. They aren't, they are playing for their enjoyment. As a survivor I will loop, flashlight, pallet stun, hide, gen rush, whatever it takes to get out. As killer I will tunnel, proxy camp, slug, whatever it takes to hook you. It's the name of the game, no where does it say you have to be kind to the opposition.
Exactly.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3456101#Comment_3456101
What "FOMO" mean?
"Fear of missing out" One of the cores of modern advertising.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3453983#Comment_3453983
No, a person doing something ######### in a game may not be the same a writing slurs, sending abusive message etc.. but it will make me question what they are like in real life and why they are acting that way.
Yeah and those are legit questions but they go largely unanswered forcing people to either move on and let it go, or risk conjuring up fanciful scenarios in their own head to villainize the opponent while justifying their own dislike of what happened.
As I've said all along... discussing whether a mechanic works or not is different from saying, "anyone who uses said mechanic is an arsehole."
One is an objective discussion the other is an emotional assumption.
So if you post an emotional assumption that is basically an attack on another person on the sole basis of a game mechanic and make all kinds of claims about how miserable is, then someone else is probably gonna say hey that's a bit over the top and they'd be correct... as its a bit ridiculous.
This is different again from saying "I don't like this mechanic here's why" because we are talking personal preference, which can lead to open discussion, but to say "Nobody likes this and it should be stopped" is a blanket statement with very little open discussion to be had that inflates the "I" in the preference to include "everyone."
I don't see how anyone defends points like these while claiming to hold an objective discussion as its the very opposite of objectivity.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3453717#Comment_3453717
Ah yes, the Nurse who is smacking me on hook and "hump teching" me is definitely just playing the villain.
There's definitely no malice there. Definitely wasn't any in the Twitch Whisper they sent to me. Definitely weren't any slurs.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/3PEXR00ICCGV/r-slur-png.png
You can TELL when people are playing to win versus playing to be an ######### just for the sake of it. You can give them an excuse by saying, "oh, they're just role-playing" but that's ######### weak in my opinion. Your main goal shouldn't be TRYING to be an #########. You want to win at any cost? That's totally fine. You wanna make other people miserable because you think it's fun? Get help.
"Ah yes, the Nurse who is smacking me on hook and "hump teaching" me is definitely just playing the villain." so what your saying is the person here doing what is essentially innocuous in game gestures is an &%$%&@ and not just a player.
That these in game gestures are equivalent to genuine slurs and emotional abuse? really?
The only thing that casts dispersion on the example person's character is the follow up DM, that is uncalled for and toxic and you shouldn't have to deal with that.
But to take your offence brush and paint all gameplay in a similar vein as motivated by the same thing and equivalent to real world pain thus demonizing any gameplay that you may not like as some form of direct personal attack is a gross error of judgement.
"I've had past experience with unpleasant people playing a particular way, that means all people who play like this are motivated by the same thing and are all terrible." That's a loss of objectivity.
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I'd say the opposite but its due to mostly updating my comp to the new machine with go faster stripes.
No frame drops when a player 360's means I'm anticipating them now and usually get the hit with a really good response.
I used to think the ability to 360 on a dime was a lil busted, but the reality was just my frame rates that were busted.
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Its been 1 day of live, do you think there is enough observed experience to make practical changes already?
I mean initial reaction sure but beyond that... eh.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3453741#Comment_3453741
I literally just meant that your only options when getting bled out for 4 minutes are to wait doing nothing for 4 minutes or to DC. That’s it. You’re looking into this wayyyy too hard man.
So the idea is to trade an in game bleed out wait for an out of game DC wait?
The alternative to the problem is to apply the same problem in a different form? 🤔
I'm just proposing some thoughts to take on before applying to other players a stringent idea of how you feel the game should be played.
Its been an interesting discussion and if we aren't here to discuss things, being a discussion forum... then why are we here?
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3453320#Comment_3453320
For a guy that says making assumptions about other people is bad you just rifled off about 8 on me lol.
I didn’t say it happens to me personally every other game, I said I see it happen every other game. One of my teammates will get tunneled, camped, or hardcore slugged every other game. This is my experience as of late. And no, I don’t DC when I get bled out for 4 minutes because I know it happens enough to the point where I’d be eating a 30 minute matchmaking penalty on the daily.
Stop acting so high and mighty and practice what you preach.
The points I've made while assumptive in nature are based on your arguments, see you can put forward an idea providing you have a unbiased rationale for it and can identify it as just an idea. I did both those things something most people posting here haven't done about their own assumptions.
Ok great so you don't DC but why then would you put it forward as the "only option" (those are your words) when faced with slugging/camping or other in game mechanics you don't seem to like? <- This is a legit question and the basis for any clearly identified assumptions I may have made about your play style.
Why would you propose people DC as their only option in response to in game mechanics? When that's blatantly untrue and against game and forum rules.
That strikes me as a very impatient mindset to have if you'd rather DC than wait out a game timer.
Ok so you see it every other game... well yeah you are going to see mechanics in game, camping, slugging and bleeding out are in game mechanics its not a revelation to say you see them frequently in game.
The question is if you fixate on these things because you think they are bad how often do you overestimate their impact?
How often do you call something camping/tunneling when it really isn't?
How often do you use them as excuses for bad game outcome?
How often does your dislike of these things override your ability to understand why someone might do that in game given the current game circumstances?
Have you ever asked yourself these questions before jumping on the game mechanics excuse bandwagon with the rest of the people who take this stuff to seriously?
I'm genuinely curious because you made some pretty concrete statements in this thread stating how you think the game should be played.
I'm not saying people never act maliciously in game but when you assume nothing but maliciousness all the time then your only ruining your own game experience so why do that to yourself?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3453313#Comment_3453313
No, I rather think I haven't.
There are good parts to the community, to be sure. Some VERY good parts.
There's far more bad than good on a day-to-day basis, however.
I could list out my extensive experiences that have made me think so lowly of the community, but I doubt anyone would care for that.
I'm sure there is some genuine bad experiences, I've had my share in the online world too. It's inevitable when dealing with random strangers online and a real shame.
There are some real creeps out there.
But what we are talking about here are just in game mechanics that should have little to no real impact on people outside of the game. All that happened here is them not getting exactly the game experience they wanted.
You can't go around casting dispersions on the quality of a person just because when playing the villain in a computer game they try and play as the villain.
When you start drawing equivalency between the mechanics of a game and real world hurt and insult then you've lost your objectivity, nothing mechanically in this game should upset people to the extent that it does, nor does it justify people attacking each other's character.
You see it all the time on these forums.
"People only do this because they are out to ruin other people's fun",
"they are punishing other players for their own bad games",
"I only did this because they did that, which makes me a heroic fighter of justice and them a terrible person who deserved it"
"I have no hope for people who play like this"
If you always assume the worst of your opponent you'll only see the worst in your opponent and at that point all objective thought goes out the window and then you can perceive slight and offence in any scenario no matter how trivial.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452807#Comment_3452807
The devs have said on multiple accounts that DbD is a party game. It was created as such and it was the players that tried to change that. You have enough posts for me to know that you know that this game is not meant for competitive play. Also, saying you’re able to play the game when slugged for 4 minutes is hilarious. Wow, you can crawl like a snail as you wait for the inevitable.
Calling personal experiences false then backing up with your own personal experience is also anecdotal and proves nothing. I see hardcore slugging and camping in every other game, this is my experience, yours doesn’t change that. I’m not saying this happens to everybody but I see this frequently enough for it to become problematic.
Edit: I missed answering the first point. Sure the devs said hey its a party game but that doesn't mean it has to be specifically played as a party game and a party game only. Players will have different motivations to play and that's ok in fact its healthy.
Heck even a fun party game when played head to head can be played competitively. It is possible to engage in competition and not hate each other at the end over the outcome. That's called being a grown up.
I didn't call your personal experience false only that its hyperbolic in nature.
I lends itself to extremes which are likely not the genuine case and overblown to serve your point.
Saying "I lose a lot is different from saying I lose every game, the latter statement is an exaggerated version of I lose a lot.
Sorry but I don't buy that you are getting bled out every other game, but I'd wager you fixate on it when you do bleed out, making it feel like every other game. That fixation has led you to the forums today to commiserate with others whom also fixate on it
I'm also leaning toward the idea that you quit a lot when you do bleed out which is an assumption but one I'll put forward as you said the only option is to DC when stuck like that.
Yeah being slugged and bleeding out is part of the game, so yeah its gameplay.
Now a mechanic to bleed out quicker if you are the last player slugged might be a way to stop impatient people like yourself getting grumpy about it but like I said before we aren't discussing that are we.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452766#Comment_3452766
My faith in the general goodness of the DBD playerbase is slim.
Generally speaking, almost everyone who plays like that knows it sucks for other people and does it FOR that reason. To get back at X role for some perceived slight in a previous match. Like the one streamer I saw that held people hostage with SM and kept a "Baby Survivor Rage DC Counter" in his top right corner. That was a fun confrontation.
Perhaps I've been around DBD too long, but I've stared into the absolutely septic abyss of the worst parts of the community and it isn't pretty. Generally, people who play like that do it because it makes other people miserable, which makes them happy
Ugh you've clouded your own view of the player base and lost your objectivity.
Even if a player does play in a manner you don't like it doesn't make them a bad person or out to ruin your fun.
The only toxicity here is that which lives in your head and the game will never improve for you while it lives there rent free.
My advice is stop playing for a while seriously.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452766#Comment_3452766
DbD is a party game first and foremost, always has been, always will be. As much as people try to make it competitive it never will be simply due to the nature of the game.
Loss of agency should not equate to getting bled out for 4 minutes straight or getting taken out of the match within 2 minutes of it starting with your only option being to DC and eat the penalty. This is fundamentally bad game design and the reason a majority of people leave the game.
People will always optimize the fun out of games and this goes for both sides. Players 100% share the blame in scenarios like these and deserve to be a part of the discussion.
I didn't read in the DBD tutorial the part about it being solely a party game. I like how you've defined the nature of the game for yourself and all other views are non existent. I guess everyone just has to agree with you on that eh?
New flash some people will play it competitively, some thematically, some casually all are just as legit as each other and may clash with your view of the game.
Getting bled out is actually a great example of loss of agency, you can't do much but crawl and bleed that's a pretty good example of loss of agency. If you take issue with the time it takes then great but as I said that's a different discussion to what's being discussed here.
DC isn't your only option, because well you bleed out after 4 mins, so that's a nonsense point that says more about your personal sense of impatience than the mechanic itself.
Its looking less and less like you are here for a discussion, based on your first point which basically says "there is one way to play DBD and it will never be anything but that."
Does that sound like a discussion to you? Sounds more like an echo chamber statement rather than a discussion point to me.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452554#Comment_3452554
No, people are tired of having to wait 4 minutes to bleed out at the end of every other game. Just let me go next, stop wasting everyone’s time.
I'm not tired of it and I'm sure there are others who aren't either. Don't over estimate the point, the term people is a lil too all inclusive and implies a greater level of agreement than their really is. People often overestimate how many others agree with their personal view, it helps us rationalize our own perspective.
The end of every other game... really? Every other game, that's a lil hyperbolic, don't over estimate the frequency it doesn't serve the point, I can count on one hand how many times I'm left to bleed out at end game from most gaming sessions and is usually due to me being in some far off corner away from a viable hook which makes it a pretty reasonable play by the killer.
Lastly you are still in play while bleeding out, so we can talk mechanics to lessen the timer in the specific scenario where you are just waiting to die at game end which is productive, but if gameplay is time wasting then maybe stop playing games and get whatever important thing you have to get done... done then you'll have enough time for gaming no matter what happens in game.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452554#Comment_3452554
Can't speak for anyone else but I'm not moaning about anything. I'm just pushing back at people trying to use every excuse under the sun when they could just say "That's how I want to play" and I wouldn't have even bothered to write anything.
"That's how I want to play", that's exactly it. There is nothing wrong with that.
Kinda funny we are making the same point from different angles.
What you describe as excuses are just people rationalizing why they would choose not to hook in that scenario over just "I want to bleed you out" as the only motivator. Some of the points are quite reasonable.
What isn't reasonable is "I assume your motivation is this" which is what a lot of posts here are doing.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452553#Comment_3452553
And it shouldn’t be. It’s awful game design to allow your players to be at the mercy of having to wait 4 minutes to go to the next game.
Why shouldn't it?
You do realize that the entire premise of the game is to either impose (as killer) or avoid (as survivor) non-participation in various forms.
The loss of agency is a core part of DBD, and a core part of the visceral slasher genre that DBD is trying to emulate.
If people want to discuss options/mechanics to lessen the wait especially when the game is clearly over etc then lets do it, great... but that's clearly not the topic of this thread.
This topic seems to be more about player motivation and is rife with assumptions about just that.
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@Phantom_ said:
Gotta love how half of the replies are just people assuming hypothetical and 100% made-up scenarios, and seeing everything just from their perspective.
As if you could've opened the door after stunning the killer for 3 seconds lmao. Give me a break. They could have carried you/hooked you, or gotten stunned and then downed you anyways. But they chose to sweat REALLY HARD for that 4K. Some people's mindset is just sad, and that's sadly the majority of this "community".
This is often my point, you see post after post that just imagines the worst of any game interaction.
It typically reads as very assumptive, un-objective and often emotional rather than rational.
Rather than just playing out games and moving on people seem hell bent on attacking the character of anyone whom might do anything in game that they don't like.