dbdthegame
dbdthegame
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@HaybaleMS said:
Y'all need to be honest...how many of you have really escaped the Xenomorph? I have had one escape. He either got tired of the 4k or nature was calling.
Well, I'm pretty good at the game and try to figure out a killer's counterplay instead of whining about them being too strong on the forums, so I've escaped quite often. As solo Q even. Actually made one DC earlier today. https://streamable.com/erv2oa
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533027#Comment_3533027
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533232#Comment_3533232
I would be inclined to agree, but it is still pretty early. I'd put him ahead of Wesker, but they are fairly equal and would be competing for the spot. if it came down to a matchup between someone like Spirit vs. Xeno I'd probably give it to Spirit. Though, I have been playing Rin since her release. Not head over heels like @GannTM , but she is still very strong after all this time. Now take a matchup like Artist vs. Xeno and i'd say Xeno. Hag vs Xeno? Xeno as well.
Xeno is nowhere near Wesker. Wesker has incredible chase and antiloop, built in slowdown, can zone extremely well, and very strong addons. Xeno is a premium version of Demo.
Artist is most definitely stronger than Xeno. And Hag is one of the weakest killers in the game since the wipe update, so I don't know why you're bringing her up...
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532951#Comment_3532951
Dont really know what kind of brainfart someone must have to rate a Killer which is "not really dependent" on Perks or Add Ons as "mid to low tier". Not having to rely on Perks or Add Ons would bring Xeno to Nurse-Level, because she is basically the one Killer who does not need to rely on Add Ons or Perks.
Xeno is not Nurse-Level, but very likely a Top 5-Killer.
Xeno is not top 5. Assuming we agree on top 4 being Blight/Nurse/Wesker/Spirit, thT would infer Xeno is stronger than Plague, Artist, Pyramid Head, Huntress, Oni. You can make an argument he's stronger than a few, but not all.
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@Xernoton said:
That would assume that Xenomorph has an enormous kill rate. Otherwise we would have basically the same effect as with Sadako and Caitlyn 3Genner. Nothing at all.
If Xenomorph's kill rate was that high, then the devs would nerf it. No doubt about that.
Caitlyn 3Genner LMAO
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@sulaiman said:
After reading this thread: a lot of people should learn about percentages and what they mean before talking about it.
A lot of this things are just wrong, because in their head the numbers seem to allign somehow, but its still wrong.
Probably should explain what you mean.
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@JudithMorel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532381#Comment_3532381
in what world? i get hit by that thing when i shouldnt.
Try dodging.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532375#Comment_3532375
This is like saying that when a huntress throws hatchets, this is a visual signal, and when you hear her voice as she throws this, this is an auditory signal.
By then it's too late and you get hit
This isn't the gotcha you think it is. There is a visual and audio cue to Huntress PULLING UP though. That's the equivalent to Xeno whipping. If you get zoned in the open by a fully charged Huntress, you're gonna get hit. And that's okay.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532271#Comment_3532271
Wait till you discover how to drag your power properly. You are up for a nice surprise. Xeno's M2 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better then nemesis's tentacle - pallet breaking and distance included.
Other thing to note is, that it takes about 400ms after clicking M2 to attack, but during half that time you are totally free to adjust and even during hit you can very well drag the hitbox - meaning what does it matter that hitbox is small when you can drag it around half the screen? (Actually it does matter - I can hit over so many loops that huntress can't and only DS can, but DS can't drag his hitbox so he actually needs precision)
Playing xeno and using these 2 things - my chases are usually very short
If the hitbox connects with any obstacle, it disables. Dragging can screw you over just as much as not dragging. As opposed to Nemesis' tentacle that's 4 individual hitboxes, each of which computes individually.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532392#Comment_3532392
Let me repeat this. EVERY single Xeno I have faced has never missed hitting a turret, whether they M1 or M2.
We suddenly defending the use of VPNs now?
Then every single Xeno you've played against is a god and they deserved the win. The killer didn't get them the win, their skill did.
When did I defend the use of VPNs, or even mention their use? Talk about arguing in bad faith, hot damn.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532375#Comment_3532375
You missed hitting a turret..? Just use M2, all PC players do it and only console players struggle with M2. You simply cannot blame it on the hitbox if all the other Xenos I've faced have zero problem with it.
Xeno will not be in an M1 state if the killer doesn't experience skill issues and is incapable of hitting a stationary object. Once the object is hit, you gain a tiny bit of distance, not even enough to get you to a new loop and Xenos will not lose sight of you that bad that they lose you.
The problem with moving turrets into corners of the map is that survivors are heavily hindered so it would be a bit silly to carry turrets so far.
The hitbox being small is a coin flip. You either hit something you shouldn't have or you miss, just like Nemesis' tentacle. PC players shouldn't have a problem with aiming more precisely, but controller players do unfortunately.
Latency suddenly meaning nothing in the context of absurd hits is a bit sillly. Sure, it doesn't actually change the hitbox, but it sure does feel like the hitboxes are larger.
The M2 is even less reliable to hit the turret with. Not only is the hitbox broken for the turret, the M2 hitbox is also skinny. If you happen to whiff (which can happen quite easily even if you're spot on the turret, if you're looking too far up), you're basically forced out of power for free. Or we could hop in a custom right now, and I'll set up a bunch of turrets, and you can show me how easily you M2 them.
I didn't say corners of the map, I said corners. The intersection of two walls is a corner. Set up a turret around it, moderately far from the wall so it can't be M1'd, and run the killer around that corner going the opposite way. Killer has to decide to either get burned out of power or turn around and destroy the turret, giving you lots of distance.
No, it's not a coin flip. Nemesis' tentacle is easier to hit because 1) it can be buffered 2) it can be dragged for longer 3) it doesn't have a vertical division and instead covers a plane directly in front of him.
Doesn't matter how it feels. What matters is what is actually happening. It "feels" bad to get grabbed by a Wesker from 6 meters past a wall because you have really bad latency, but on his end, he grabbed you properly. This is a ping issue, not a killer issue.
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@mikewelk said:
Tail attack being no better than Demo's shred is all I needed to read to stop.
Tail Attack actually is much easier to dodge than Demo's shred. Tail attack has a very skinny hitbox as opposed to the truck-sized hitbox Demo has, can't be buffered, and doesn't cause the Xeno to move at 460%.
Xeno needs no nerf. He's a B-tier killer at best. Learn to play and stop whining.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532271#Comment_3532271
Visual and sound cue? Since when?
You get punished for missing the ability and lose distance? His ability has NO cool down. He loses barely any distance so no need for the exaggeration.
Xeno is never in M1 state unless you're going against a SWF with good turret locations. No point even mentioning he's an M1 killer.
I do not care that you have 6k hours. It's completely irrelevant in this subject.
The hitbox being small doesn't mean anything. If the server is laggy, absurd hits will happen no matter what. Why do you think killers use VPNs?
You see the tail whip backwards, that is the visual cue. And you hear the whip-like sound of the tail shortly before it shoots out, that is the sound cue. He has a 3 second cooldown after using his tail attack, and moves at 2m/s during that time. Survivor can make up to 6m of distance (as much extra distance as you would have received from a Sprint Burst use) during that time.
Xeno WILL be in an M1 state if you set up a turret and run him into it, and he misses hitting the turret (which happens quite frequently because their hitbox is actually broken, I've M1'd them many times at point blank while they were shooting at me and somehow still didn't break them). Otherwise, the turret forces him to hit it and lose distance and vision of you briefly. You can use this time to make distance and run him into another turret. Or, you can set up ambush turrets around corners and run him into them, and essentially force him to pick between chasing you or breaking the turret.
The hitbox being small absolutely means a lot. Bad ping and VPNs don't change the size of the hitbox, they only change the latency of the hit on both ends. If a Xeno whiffs, they whiffed. And a small hitbox makes whiffing much more likely.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532004#Comment_3532004
Basically it boils down to a few key complaints, not ones that I entirely agree with but basically:
- Minimal telegraphing, turning chases into 'guess when the killer is gonna press m2'
- Minimal punishment for missing, the cooldown time might be 3 seconds but from my experience it feels like Xeno is barely slowed down for missing leading to what I'm going to dub 'Pyramid Head syndrome' (aka just spam spam spam until you get a hit).
- Very little build up to having it; it's a strong chase power that's basically always there unless survivors are really good with turrets which, as you can imagine most aren't, In fact I doubt anybody is 'good' with them yet.
- Xeno has addons that make their counterplay even worse. Reduced flame distance, turrets auto destroying, knowing where all of them are when traversing and so on.
- And one last one which is highly subjective but a seemingly generous hitbox AT TIMES. Sometimes it's really easy to dodge, other times I've seen a clip or two of survivors being hit OVER tall obstacles by it. Bizarre.
There is both a visual AND sound cue to his power, not to mention he CANNOT cancel out of it after buffering it. He has to hard commit to using it. As opposed to say, Huntress, or Nemesis, or Pyramid Head. There is also plenty of punishment to missing. He loses quite a bit of distance. It's not exactly a "strong" chase power. It's more of an antiloop power. A chase power is typically mobility oriented (or at least, allows for hits from very far away), and chase powers typically counter W holding, which Xeno can't. He does have a mobility aspect to his power (tunnels), but his tail is an antiloop, not a chase. And I'm not even sure if I would call it a "strong" one. In terms of antilooping, it's about on par with Nemesis (minus pallet breaking and with less range) and Pyramid Head (minus hitting through walls and range).
Good thing about his counterplay not being very strong. We're not talking about an exceptionally powerful chase/antiloop power like Singularity's, that needs to have some form of hefty counterplay. The guy is literally an M1 killer without it, and is a sidegrade to Nemmy/Phead with it. Not to mention neither of them have any particular counterplay to canceling out their power.
I have about 6k hours in DBD. The hitbox for his tail is probably one of the smallest and tightest in the game. As far as being hit over tall obstacles, it's due to the nature of the hitbox (it angles down). It's an extremely hard maneuver to pull off because you typically hit without LOS, but it's incredibly rewarding to hit.
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Ho-lee.
Talk about the mother of hot takes. Not like we already had killers ingame that could force lose-lose situations at every pallet/window (without the restriction of having to hard commit to using your power) who also can't be kicked out of their power...
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@mikewelk said:
In my recent discussion, which was a contrast to all the "Xenomorph is balanced" dicussions, I asked about how Xenomorph's tail attack, in this state, is balanced. Here is a summary of all that happened.
. I got called an "entitled survivor main" for asking (didn't even bother arguing his point)
. Blamed for not giving Xeno time and to stop "crying for nerfs"
. The topic got deflected to the Remote Flame Turrets
. People argued that remote flame turrets are strong, slow the killer down a lot, and give you time to get to a loop as Xenos break the turrets even without a cooldown (I don't know which game they're playing)
. The Xenomorph got compared to Huntress and suddenly Huntress is OP?
. Window/pallet vault baiting is how to dodge the ability (once Xenos learn to be more patient and improve their aim, this strategy will become obsolete)
. People argued that you can react to Xeno's ability in time (the maths was done by someone proving otherwise, please tag them if you remember who and I'll edit them in)
. Dodging (when you think the tail attack will happen) was suggested as a good strategy when Xenos can just follow that mistake up with an M1
. General agreement that the ability causes lose/lose situations frequently
. People genuinely agreed on the idea of a cooldown for the tail attack
. People assumed I placed turrets on top of gens (?)
.Pre-dropping pallets counters them (most Xenos don't break pallets and just take advantage of it)
. you need distance management to counter them (distance counters every killer lol)
. Not loop in a lose/lose situation (why would a sane Xeno let me leave a loop when they HOPE I drop the pallet?)
. Run towards already placed turrets to counter (most turrets are right next to gens getting worked on)
. Hold W (crazy good advice)
. General agreement that SWF can utilize turrets well compared to solo queue
. The classic "get good" and "skill issue" comments
. Apparently not having a sound cue nor animation for the ability isn't a cause of concern
. Some people basically admit to facing new Xeno players and basing their opinion on that (no consideration on how Xeno mains will perform in the weeks to come)
. Complaining that the killer needs time to settle in (Xeno mains will only IMPROVE with time)
. The idea that the tail attack is something you can react to is very prominent (seen as a counter)
. Some general tips on how to waste a lot of time moving turrets to "strategic" locations to annoy (?) Xeno more
It is important to note that there wasn't any semi-decent answer to my question. Most people just shared their realistic perspective and argued their point which I thank them for because it just highlights how hard it is to argue that the killer is balanced even with how this forum mainly portrays him as 'balanced'. Also, every argument about the ability being balanced that got a ton of upvotes was just people telling me to get good and providing terrible advice alongside it. Typical.
How is the tail attack unbalanced?
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530476#Comment_3530476
That was the thing I was talking about. AFTER you make a safe vault, the SB/MfT difference is based only upon the safe/unsafe quality of the loop. God pallets or forced kicks? Get them outta the way early. Now they can't use them for the rest of the match. It sounds like the way you describe Killer, that you should never play a pallet. If a Survivor drops a pallet, the Killer is legally obligated to kick it. That sounds more Survivor rulebooky than what most Surv mains claim. You can kick the 3 pallets in a line the dingus dropped after you down them. No need to play into their favor.
3 gens being worked: This is where you appear to be mistaken. (Circumstances dependent) I recommend injuring all Survs and maybe burning a pallet out of them making them think they 'won' chase. They won the battle, but you will win the war. Then you can go back to the gen without the safe pallet they are trying to pump, and chase them into the corner with the simple pallet. That is likely the pallet you are saying is MfT-able (at Bloodlust 1) but not SB-able. You already spent 5-15 seconds reaching that pallet in chase in the first place, so BL1 now sets you back to even footing where a successful mindgame gets the hit, or you can wait out the 10s for BL2 while attempting the mindgames regardless, win win. Just never attempt the mindgame on the side that would open them up to the map. Once all are injured, and you have this one down and soon to be on hook, they are forced into a lose-lose. This Surv A is on hook, but they need to heal to rescue them. So now Survs B and C have to find each other and heal (or give themselves 15% gen slowdown earlier and duo a gen, a win either way for Killer, and if a duo gen was the initial gen you found, then all the better), Surv D gets chased, downed, and now best case scenario for the Survs, you have 2 on hook and 2 healthy Survs (remember, 16s per heal with 2 heals being 32s, and halfway into Bloodlust 2 is 30s, slightly in the Killers favor). Intercept B attempting to rescue A (while C goes for D), and they have to hook trade, and remember, you hooked Surv A in a deadzone, so there is no more pallets for them to use. Again, best case scenario for them is Surv B is now on hook, C finished healing D, and A is injured trying to run away from you. Everyone is so blinded by the micro of a singular chase, they fail to understand the macro detriment to staying injured, and losing in a steady snowball in the best of cases for Survivors.
Gens are a resource to manage as Killer, just like HP in strategy and roleplaying games. You can fight just as effectively (in most systems) at max health, just the same as 1 hp. As long as you drain your opponents health faster than they can drain yours, you win. That is what is being tested. Your ability to get 12 hooks/4 kills before they get 5 gens + the gates opened. If they use a chase delay perk (MfT), you can use a gen delay perk (Pop/PR). Both are serving the same goal, to lessen your side's 'HP' loss.
No offense, but this whole post reads like you only ever play against literal bot survivors. The survivors I'm talking about using MFT aren't the ones you can "just injure all 4" as an afterthought, nor do they congregate (especially when injured), nor do they give free hits, nor do they hang around a gen when they hear TR nearby. As an M1 killer, you have to hold W for 15-20s to even begin chase when they prerun after hearing your TR (even more if they decide to prerun very early).
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529858#Comment_3529858
In order for it to be popular it would need to be useful. If every survivor ran it today, no killer will complain but be thankful for one less bs perk being used. If the effect were changed to +3% speed while holding a pebble, yeah, killers are going to complain about it.
Stop making sense. If Hangman's Trick (excuse me. SCOURGE HOOK: Hangman's Trick) was 99% use rate on killers, survivors would ask for it to be nerfed!!! Ergo, nothing survivor mains say is ever meaningful. Revert the nerf on Eruption.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530322#Comment_3530322
So wait, Sprint Burst gets ~24s of chase time, but MfT gets ~19s. Where is the complaint? The time gets 'reset' but all it is resetting is whether or not you make the window/pallet in time. If you would make it without MfT you would make it with. Even then, how is Bloodlust not accumulating to T2 and T3 if MfT is extending the chase time by so long? Unless it is a god pallet, the Killer is in control of Bloodlust. A stun drops 1 tier, and a pallet break drops all. The Killer can simply respect/ignore the pallet and keep building Bloodlust to force the down. Why is MfT resetting distance while also resetting Bloodlust to nothing? If the Killer is getting a hit against an SB user in Bloodlust 1, that just means the same Killer needs only wait 10s for Bloodlust 2 and have an easier time than the BL1 SB chase. (.88m/s difference instead of .8, or ~21% faster BL T2 vs MfT compared to 20% faster BL T1 non MfT)
I think there's some severe misunderstanding on your part here. Time resets AFTER you make the pallet/window, not before. Killer vaults/breaks pallet? You gain distance, and that distance is artificially extended by MFT. Sprint Burst's benefit is frontloaded (4.63 seconds vs MFT) on use. MFT resets that benefit on every pallet break (breaking is 2.34s, or about 9~10m of distance. With two pallet breaks, you've exceeded the time gain from Sprint Burst).
There are pallets that you make with MFT that you wouldn't make with SB as well. This ties into being able to greed more often, and chaining loops easier. Some pallets you can't Bloodlust. The ones that you can, your best recommendation is really to force the killer to waste 25 to 35s on a SINGLE pallet to force a down while the other three survivors are merrily cranking away gens unbothered? Then there really is a problem with MFT. Never mind the fact that there is never an obvious indicator that a survivor is using it until you see them do something egregious like making shack window after losing all distance to a well timed vault.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529893#Comment_3529893
Yes assuming the survivor has no other exhaustion perk at all, which is dumb and unrealistic. If I do the same math, but compare a survivor with MFT vs. a survivor with Sprint Burst (or any exhaustion perk), the result becomes very different:
Exhaustion perks give 150% for 3 seconds, ie. a 6 meters head start. Your chase with MFT started at 10 meters.
So, in this scenario. MFT gave you 17% more distance, but any other exhaustion perks give you ~60%. Almost FOUR TIMES MORE.
OP BHVR PLS NERF, SPRINT BURST, LITHE, OVERCOME, SO MUCH DISTANCE GAINED!!!!!!
No, Sprint Burst gives 6m OVER THREE seconds. Accounting for the speed difference between killer and survivor (0.6), survivors travel 18m and killer travels 13.8m, so it gives 4.2 meters. The distance gained by Sprint Burst also isn't reset by every pallet break/vault/mindgame won against the killer, nor does it account for extra distance traveled INSIDE loops that were designed to be played at 4.0.
So again, assuming we start off with 10m of distance, SB extends it to 14.2m over 3 seconds. Over the next 12s, killer gains distance at 0.6m/s, at which point it's 7m of distance remaining, killer gets BL1, and gains distance at a rate of 0.8m/s, and catches up over 8.75s. Total chase time from beginning to end was 23.75s, or 101m traveled by the survivor. As compared to 19.12s from MFT (which again, resets after every distance gain by survivor and doesn't account for extra loops inside tiles or misplays recovered from). Sprint Burst buys you 4.63s on use, then loses you 2.87s on every 10m reset as compared to MFT.
Balanced perk yall.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530155#Comment_3530155
I feel like the shortest answer I can give to all that is just... no? No, you don't have to run all that.
You can, if you want to, but you can do perfectly well without any one of those. You don't need slowdown, it just helps. You can run whatever addons you want, and chase perks similarly help but aren't required. Game sense can provide a good 90% of the benefits that info perks can provide, but also, I get it; you'll pry my info perks out of my cold dead hands, they're a lot of fun.
As for anti-Exhaustion, unless I missed an update where all the current Exhaustion perks were put on a timer instead, any of those you run will help with the others, to some degree. That's why I like the idea of improving them, if they're worth running survivors might rethink some of their perk choices as they think about whether they want to gamble on facing anti-Exhaustion.
(It's also not required to face MFT, it just, again... helps. That's a bit of a theme, you may notice.)
Killers can totally tunnel or camp if they want to, they're legitimate elements of the game. Of course, because they're legitimate elements of the game, they should be balanced as such and survivors should be able to answer them, right? So the current tools to do that are, if anything, too lacking. It might be considered poor sportsmanship to do either in some circumstances, but nothing's actually stopping you.
I'm not admitting anything, my friend, I just don't see what stripping out half of the game proves. On your end, you're going to perform better because you can use all the resources on the map and don't have to care about positioning relative to your teammates (or for that matter, running into deadzones your teammates created earlier), and on my end... I cut out using my power and cut out showcasing any real macro gameplay. Don't you think that's kind of setting MFT up to look fantastic by putting it in the literal best possible scenario for its use? It doesn't seem like a particularly honest experiment to run if we're trying to ascertain the perk's meaningful strength in actual games, not least because it'd have no control sample or contrasting examples.
My scenario is putting MFT in 1v1 chase situation against an M1 killer. If that's a "fantastic scenario" for MFT to play out (remember we're only using half the perk here), there's a problem. Why should anyone ever play an M1 killer (the other half of the game that you keep conveniently glossing over) when MFT exists?
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Blight is running away from nerfs with Vial+Crow.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530125#Comment_3530125
To be clear, I don't actually think NOED is the killer equivalent of MFT, because I don't think killer has or needs a direct counterpart. It'd be hard to replicate MFT's conditions on the killer side anyway. I would say NOED is the killer equivalent of Adrenaline, though, it lines up too nicely not to be. My point in bringing that up was to point out that there's already a perk that almost does what you were describing there, and that it lines up with the abstract elements of MFT - conditional, removable, extra effect - nicer. The two perks aren't actually that similar because that example of yours isn't really comparable to MFT to begin with.
The killer has control over removing MFT through Exhaustion and, technically, Exposed, though that second one will only work once. To head off a potential goalpost shift- I'm well aware that current anti-Exhaustion tools are a little hit or miss, which is why I suggested improving them.
Why would I play Trapper? He's already a weak killer that struggles, and it'd only be through luck that I play him in public matches anyway. Wouldn't the more appropriate experiment (assuming we're even of comparable skill, which we have no way of knowing) be for the killer player to play whoever they actually play more frequently? This is of course setting aside that 1v1s aren't the most realistic way of testing these things since a 1v1 survivor player doesn't have to worry about preserving resources or running the killer away from generators mid-repair.
I agree. Killers shouldn't have an MFT equivalent. And neither should survivors.
So hang on. Killers need to run 1) regression/slowdown to actually stand a chance 2a) addons/perks to amplify their power in chase OR 2b) chase perks to stand a chance without a chase power 3) info perks to counter super immersed survivors 4) exhaustion addons/perks to counter the POSSIBILITY of survivors bringing MFT (reminds me an awful lot of COH where killers should just "bring Shattered Hope").
But wait, on top of this, killers shouldn't 1) tunnel, whether because OTR/DS/DH exists or because any made up rulebook where survivors are the only ones allowed to play to win 2) camp because Reassurance/Kinship/Deliverance and because hooks grabs are gone anyways 3) slug because Unbreakable, Expo, and FTP/Buckle Up/Soul Guard/MFT.
And then people complain they're running into a lot of Blight/Wesker/Spirit/Nurses...
You should play Trapper because he's a pure M1 killer, with pure mindgame skill expression on both sides (less so on mine because haha 3% faster). Or are you admitting M1 killers get ######### on by MFT?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530120#Comment_3530120
That wouldn't be the killer equivalent, though.
The killer equivalent would be something like a conditional 4% speed increase with an additional effect, that still requires good play to be used effectively and survivors have control over removing. Come to think of it, that sounds pretty familiar...
The actual main effect of the perk, conditional and counterable 3% speed increase, is strong but acceptable. It's all the extra stuff on top that makes the perk far too overtuned, and warrants some addressing on BHVR's part. Some of that is going to look like changing the perk itself, but I'd also argue that improving the counter-pick perks and addons would be a good direction to look in general, not just for MFT.
NOED is the killer equivalent for MFT? But wait, I thought NOED was the killer equivalent for Adrenaline as an endgame second chance perk??
Killers have control over removing MFT? Enlighten me, how does one do this?
I keep saying this every time someone says "b-but 3% isn't even that bad" and no one wants to take me up on it. Do you wanna 1v1 on Coal Tower Trapper? You use any exhaust you want, I'll use MFT.
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@jesterkind said:
Not that I'm saying the perk is 100% fine, but a perk being that fun actually would get that high of a pickrate, so that's not a particularly compelling argument.
It's also not particularly unfair or unbalanced... on its own. It still needs nerfing, but it's more to the tune of removing Endurance from it and addressing Haste stacking.
No, the perk itself is beyond busted. 20% extra distance makes up for so many misplays. The perk needs a top-down rework.
How about we make a perk for killers where they get an extra 5% permanent speedboost if there's two gens left?
@scoser said:
It's gotten to the point where killers have their profile names set to "<killer name>becauseMFT" and of course they all hard tunnel.
Sounds like you played against my Blight yesterday. I had my name as BlightBecauseMFT. Although I didn't tunnel anyone but I did play very sweaty.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529692#Comment_3529692
I love how people constantly use awful assumptions to make a 3% skill suddenly into a 20% number instead.
When it was dead hard, it was 'it extends chase by 45 second OMG' because that made it sound as evil as possible. Why not use a number of seconds? It's it because an extra .45 seconds sounds really pitiful, like it really is?
Oh, right, people deliberately do math where bloodlust and killer powers don't exist. Now I remember.
Some killer powers are unusable around certain tiles and become an active hinderance. And 3% is 20% of 15, hence the 20% figure... It's also 30% of 10%, so it's technically 30% against 110 killers. Bloodlust doesn't exist to make up for the existence of MFT, it exists to make up for ultra safe map design, which MFT exacerbates.
@Seraphor said:
I mean, your sarcasm is correct.
Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's effective. Bandwagons are real.
You would need to know how the perk correlates with kill/escape rates.
For example Windows is by far the top perk, but there is no hint of a nerf in the works, because it's not actually increasing the odds of escape by all that much for most survivors.
Self Care is somehow still relatively popular despite being a killer perk.
Self-Care is only "bad" against Sloppy. I hate the "haha self care bad" meme. Self Care is slower on aggregate than an altruistic heal (40s vs 32s) but doesn't require a rotate to heal you, nor does it require two people to be together, with one of them being injured. It lets someone reset in a vacuum. The only reason why Self Care was ever "bad" was because COH was broken.
@CaulDrohn said:
If it was just MFT, it may be still tolerable. But the new, uninspired meta-build I see in my games more and more is:
- Made for this
- Resilience
- Windows
- Hope
And of course staying injured all the time, so you can crank out gens not wasting time healing. That's so incredibly boring to face.
Before the great perk overhaul, we had the situation were nearly every survivor ran the same 4-5 second chance perks (DH, DS, BT, UB, IW). It was not uncommon to find the exact same build for all 4 survivors. No perk variety whatsoever. It got significantly better since the perk overhaul, but the addition of MfT just reverted this trend, imo. More and more survivors running this exact build (sometimes mixed up with DH), making survivor loadouts as uninspired and generic as they were before the overhaul.
Thats my main concern with Mft right know, it just greatly decreases variety. And not just for survivors. If the killers face this game after game, they have no other chance than to equip 4 gen regression or play the strongest killers to compete. And that in turn makes soloQ exceptionally more miserable.
Imo, releasing MfT was a BIG mistake, with all the ripple effects the perk creates.
Don't forget prerunning 10 hours in advance as soon as a TR is heard because God forbid a killer should have to hold W for less than 30 seconds to even catch up to a survivor.
@Seraphor said:
MfT is mostly fine, but both sides are arguing in bad faith here.
3% Haste IS a 20% extended chase. But a 20% extended chase can mean anything depending on how that chase is managed. So many players just play like bots and path formulaicly instead of mindgaming or catching survivors out positioned.
MfT isn't "free" like many killers mains are arguing, nor is it quite as OP as the math makes it out to be. It's still a very strong perk, but in practice, Sprint Burst is more effective. I've downed many, many MfT users with little effort but a survivor Sprinting away right as I'm about to reach them, or even when I'm 10m away and therefore denying a chase entirely, screw me over so much more.
You only need Tier 1 bloodlust to counter it, not 3, so 15 seconds is plenty. The problem is recognising that MfT is in play so you can adjust your chase and use that bloodlust asap.
Endurance is probably too much, we have Buckle Up for that now. And stacking with Hope can be a problem.
Let me make the same argument for something survivors complain about. Ahem,
Alchemist's Ring IS all rush tokens recovered. But all rush tokens recovered can mean anything depending on how that chase is managed. So many players just play like bots and bump formulaicly instead of using proper bump logic or even flicking properly.
Alchemist's Ring isn't "free" like many survivors are arguign, nor is it quite as OP as survivors make it out to be. It's still a very strong addon, but in practice, playing Blight as an M1 killer is more effective. I've seen many, many Alchemist's Ring users whiff their rushes over and over again right as they're about to hit me, or even keep using their power over and over again and whiff when they could have forced the pallet down much sooner by holding down W, screwing themselves over so much more.
Is the point evident now? An overpowered mechanic is only overpowered in the hands of someone who isn't a complete bot. Arguing "most players are bad" is arguing in bad faith. We don't balance the game around the lowest common denominator, we balance it around the level where players are playing somewhat competently and have a general idea of how to loop/chain tiles. In this scenario, MFT is so broken as a chase extender against any killer without a proper chase power.
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Whoa hold up
You mean to tell me there's a killer that can HIT you through pallets and windows like Nemesis, Pyramid Head, Huntress, Slinger, Trickster, Plague, Artist, Twins, Nurse, and Knight?
This is big news. Someone call Elon, this must be front paged on TwittX.
Anyways, see you and your SWF next week.
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@Yusoka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528735#Comment_3528735
100% that isn’t an answer to my question. If the bots* are “compensating” whatever would be “lost” by someone DCing, then why are people punished for DCing when there is no loss to everyone else anymore?
There is a loss. Bots are nowhere near as efficient or competent as humans.
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Sure thing, but let's fix all the terrible collisions so I can actually bump logic without sliding off Mac trees.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528308#Comment_3528308
Sorry but intentionally targeting and ruining a persons playing experience Is toxic and it being efficient doesn’t change the fact it’s annoying, unfun, and toxic lol. Other games strive away from unfun and annoying experiences and make playing in a toxic way typically a disadvantage meanwhile dbd strongly encourages being as toxic on both sides as you can be lol. Literally neither side is fun at all because this playerbase is one of the worst I’ve been in and I played overwatch in 2016-2021 💀
Playing efficiently isn't toxic, just the same way bringing 4 BNPs and a map offering isn't toxic. It's just playing hyper efficiently.
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I would probably stop playing DBD if they changed the voice for Feng
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@Tsulan said:
- Made for This: Changed the Haste effect from 3% to 5% to make up for Rapid Brutality.
- Rapid Butality: Changed the status effect from 8/9/10 seconds to 3/4/5 seconds.
- Chemical Trap: Changed the slowdown from 50% to 90% for 10 seconds (was 4 seconds).
- Save the Best for Last: Attacking anything BUT your Obsession will make you lose 4/3/2 stacks.
- Decisive Strike: Repairing a gen doesn´t count as Conspicuous Action anymore.
- Reduced The Pig's RBTs from 4 to 2
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No movement speed bonus is multiplicative. Always add the percentage to the killer's power movement speed. So for Billy, his total speed becomes 265% (doesn't seem like much but it makes a massive difference). For Blight with double speed, his speed goes up by 10% every rush.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527120#Comment_3527120
Hmmmm, I disagree.
I think the Endurance should be removed and then we should see what happens. Killing the perk would be a mistake.
Frankly, the Endurance is the least offensive part of the perk. Most maps are safe enough without having an extra 20% distance made on every meter you have on the killer. Not to account for all the extra loops you can make around pallets, forcing lose-lose for killers.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526861#Comment_3526861
And yet, people with MFT die all the time.
And killers using Blight/Nurse with strongest addons/perks lose all the time. You can use the most busted stuff in the game but you can't fix skill issue. I'm not here making a case for Alch Ring/Crow being balanced because I once juiced a Blight for 5 gens and 4-outed at 0 hooks. We're discussing cases where people are moderately decent at the game. On anyone halfway ok, MFT makes up for so many mistakes and allows for ridiculous extensions to chases. There is absolutely no excuse for this perk to continue to exist.
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@NaoVale said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525935#Comment_3525935
50 hours player does not understand how strong she is
Fresh account that was made exactly 4 minutes before responding to me? Gee, I sure wonder who this could be!
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526824#Comment_3526824
Out of all of those only the vault 'bugfix' being actually bugfixed is truly an issue. Everything else is a self-report. Most MfT users are supplementing their lack of skill, so applying any mindgame utterly destroys them faster than if they had Lithe or Sprint Burst instead. Buckle-Up complaints are essentially if you have to play with TV speakers. I have hearing damage and I have no problem tagging people with an injury before they try to FtP+Buckle-Up a slugged teammate, and don't slug them long enough to give Buckle-Up value alone.
MFT is straight up overpowered. It's not a crutch. A bad player using it holding W will be hard to catch. A good player using it will be impossible to catch.
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They just want to buy an extra 24 hours of quiet before they announce MFT/Buckle Up/vault nerfs and 90% of the killer roster is playable again.
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DELETE THIS. HOW DARE YOU DISPROVE THE NARRATIVE???
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Aye GOJ is stupid
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@mizark3 said:
I think the worse offender (on all farm maps) is the filler pallet with the tent and 2 crates. That doesn't protect against ANY killer, and a powerless 4.4 Killer could even get a hit at those without Bloodlust. But that contributes to the pallet count of the map, so it prevents a real pallet from spawning. I'd say it would even be too generous to say they are good as zombie killers against Nemesis.
If they are going to have this few pallets, they need multiple different medium strength windows to compensate. Weaker than Shack and Garden of Joy's main building, but much stronger than the Z and U walls found on the edge of maps.
Alternatively, I believe it has 3 fixed tiles (randomized by map gen), 1 is cowtree, 2 are harvesters. If they changed it to make the weak side a cowtree, and the strong side with a harvester and cowtree, (RNG determines which of the 2 spots are the harvester) then that could also help fix the map.
The easiest solution would be reverting the changes to this map specifically, but I do like the meat locker being opened up on both ends.
Cowshed also feels like it needs to be fixed, but I'm fine with it being an overtly Killer sided map after years of it being the opposite, kind of a karmic retribution. Rancid doesn't deserve this back-alley treatment though.
Survivors need to get out of the mindset that pallet that I can't loop=useless pallet. Unsafe pallets are the pallets that killers will want to respect the MOST (because the only value you can get out of them is to stun with them), meaning you can afford to greed them over and over again and just loop tightly. I've lost count of how many 1+ min chases I've had in RPD on the West wing stair pallet because a killer kept respecting it over and over again.
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200 hour players in charge of making balance decisions
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Playing Nurse/Blight and never looking back
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Most articulate DBD player
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522738#Comment_3522738
how do you know that? i think it is mostly a lot of killer player leaving temporally to play TCM. if a lot of high mmr killer player leave, survivor queue times become longer because matchmaker has to search for killers that are worse for survivor to get games. if TCM becomes competitor to dbd, then dbd has to be somewhat careful. dbd never had to be careful in bleeding out players because DBD was only game to offer dbd type gameplay.
Steam charts
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522738#Comment_3522738
Considering the majority of the player base is on console and not steam that's almost certainly not true.
Beware of confirmation bias. Any major game release is going to poach some players away for a bit that's common sense which depending on where the OP is could be having a greater effect on their matchmaking experience if they were already in a low population region.
Perks are usually the least likely thing to mess with queue times.
Do you have any sources for the majority of the player base being on console? And do you have any objective information beside "just trust me bro"?
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522519#Comment_3522519
It's kind of the truth though.
Massive overlap in player base with a new major release plus an upcoming chapter drop in DBD means folks won't be on till tomorrow afternoon at the earliest.
Honestly like the next month might see DBD having some pretty wonky queue times cause a bunch of stuff is coming out. Payday 3, MK1, Bomb Cyber Rush just dropped, Starfield, Lies of P, Cyberpunk's Phantom Liberty expansion. Lots stuff to take chunks out of the regular player pool for a while. Also we just finished an event which usually makes a fair sized crater in the player base as old ones return to their slumber to await the next seasonal event.
DBD's player numbers haven't changed in the slightest with the TCM release. The phenomenon you're witnessing (longer queue times for survivors) is what we call survivors having a bunch of busted perks released back to back.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Q times will be better when Alien comes out maybe everyone's playing TCM right now.
How many rupees do you get paid per TCM shill post?
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@Venusa said:
Kinship isn't "very strong" or "underrated". Anyone who says that is just scared of the idea of it getting a buff. Tbh the idea Kinship has is kinda in the right direction but there isn't a reason why it doesn't work also during 1st phase of the hook instead of just 2nd.
It's a staple for comp player builds when and where allowed. Reassurance is stronger, but Kinship is one of the best anti-tunnel/camp perks in the game.
@Venusa said:
Kinship going strong with it's 0.4% pick-rate! It's so useful the survivors love it! 😍
Pick rate =/= strength. Eruption had a low pick rate for a very long time before people discovered the genkick combo.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521748#Comment_3521748
They mentioned both and the freedom of speech is such a cool thing.
Freedom of speech is freedom from being silenced by a government. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to use someone's platform to say whatever you want. This is a DBD forum, talk about DBD or go somewhere else.
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Kinship is already a very strong and very underrated perk. It's fine as it is.
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Ping. No different than you getting hit through a pallet by a killer.