crogers271
crogers271
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The best reason to not tunnel is the first one: it's boring. Yeah, the survivors might be jerks about it and you might lose some games, but if I'm bored playing a video game why am I playing it?
@FFirebrandd idea of ghost survivors - I feel like the amount of balancing that would need to be done to adjust for this would require a new game. Right now, for example, a 3v1 can be pretty interesting if its down to 1 gen to go, throw a ghost in there and the killer has very little chance.
I also think it changes the feel of the game. It's an elimination game where players are supposed to dread the third hook. Going to ghost form would alter what makes DbD exciting.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3608839#Comment_3608839
Survivors have pre-game chat for only PC players and only for a minute. They just can add perks into lobby and in game.
In lobby: Click survivor's name and see their perks.
In game: Click ESC and see what survivor have what perks.
This change would make solo-q so much better.
Survivors have pre-game chat for only PC players and only for a minute. They just can add perks into lobby and in game.The point is I'm not sure how many people would use the feature. Yes, chat only exists for PC players, but its not like it gets used. If people aren't willing to chat I don't think they are going to spend that much time looking at other people's builds and making adjustments.
To be clear, its a feature I'd like. I would really like to know what perks the others are bringing. I'm just not sure it would have a huge overall impact on soloq wins/losses.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
"We always monitor the difference between survivor groups (SWF and solo) and our current stance is that lack of information is not the crux of the problem, but rather that friends work together by nature and solo survivors don't (as much). -Mike"
Now, that's true. SWF teams will work together better and help each other more because they can coordinate better. That's why so much perks and builds are doing so good with SWF teams while they are mostly meh for solo survivors.
SWF teams even can plan their play style because they will simply tell each other whatever perks they are going to use. But solo survivors? You can't. Because your teammates don't know what perks you are going to use.
+ If they see you have We'll Make It, they will leave hook save to you.
+ If you see someone is using Power Struggle build, you can help them with baiting killer for a bit and then leave. Things like that so easy for SWFs but good luck to do in solo-q.
+ If you want to Head On killer to help your teammate when they are in chase, you just can't most times. In SWF, you will tell them you are in which locker but in solo-q, you just can't do that.
I can give more examples but that's good enough. Most perks and builds are viable for SWF but meh or dead for Solo-q.
And seriously HUD need 2 more icons:
- Show AFC progress to all survivors. So we will know killer is camping. That's something SWF can tell each other already.
- And sometimes you don't know who is going to save. Sure, you are seeing survivor is doing nothing and you are assuming they are going to save but you are clueless. It would be nice to know if we knew one survivor is going to save.
HUD was good change but looks like we are not getting anything else and this kinda upset. Those changes are not even big but would make solo play better.
I am not saying devs are ignoring solo survivors, i know they have limited time for so much work but if you don't give enough tools to survivors, ofcourse they can't help each other as much SWF teams does. It's not like solo survivors are selfish and only cares about themself. No. I am actually thinking most of them are pretty altruistic and team players but we have not enough tools to coordinate. That's the issue.
information is not the crux of the problem, but rather that friends work together by nature and solo survivors don't (as much)I think the first part is correct, the second part is wrong / poorly stated. Things like planning their playstyle are critical (which you discuss), but I wouldn't say BHVR's answer discounts that.
Survivors do have the ability to chat pre-game, its just almost never used. And the rare times I've seen someone try and organize the survivors it has actually worked pretty well.
And seriously HUD need 2 more icons:Agree on the first, disagree on the second (though I'd only show the anti-facecamp when it hits certain threshholds). If you see someone off gens and not in chase when someone else is hooked, that person should be going for the save. Also don't know how you could get the HUD to detect what someone is doing, so we're talking about adding an emote/ping system for what people are doing.
I imagine one day they'll get there, but I prefer DBD on the survivor side with uncertainty.
If I was to add something to the HUD, I think Reassurance should also be shown.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3608443#Comment_3608443
That's not what BHVR said at all. The direct quote is "change the kit to encourage other kinds of play styles more", which doesn't promise Twins getting anything as a better option. It could very well mean that the change is mostly a big nerf to slugging, and Twins will be encouraged to slug less because slugging is getting nerfed.
It could very well mean that the change is mostly a big nerf to slugging, and Twins will be encouraged to slug less because slugging is getting nerfed.When have they ever said/done 'we're going to adjust x killer' and then accomplished that by altering a base mechanic.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3608512#Comment_3608512
If BHVR is planning on giving Twins a better option than slugging, they could just tell us. They wouldn't have to go into detail of what the change would be, but they could at least give us the peace of mind that they want to actually give Twins a better option than slugging.
They wouldn't have to go into detail of what the change would be, but they could at least give us the peace of mind that they want to actually give Twins a better option than slugging.Why do you presume they know for sure what they are going to do? They very well might be working out / playing around with different options. If the changes were all set in stone then they could put them into the game tomorrow.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3608542#Comment_3608542
Do you live and thrive on semantics?
If the RESULTS are Twins getting a heavy nerf to slugging, and not having a better alternative, then the rework will be garbage.
If the RESULTS are Twins getting a heavy nerf to slugging, and not having a better alternative, then the rework will be garbage.If the results are twins getting a heavy nerf to slugging, and having a better alternative, then the rework will be great.
Every single time BHVR makes a change to the game there is the possibility it will make the game worse. That's the nature of change and BHVR has a mixed bag on changes. I'll wait to see the changes proposed to see what it looks like, but if they wanted to make changes to slugging then that would be the thing on the roadmap.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607826#Comment_3607826
It takes roughly five seconds. It takes a camera spin to check the area before hand in order to not allow extra time for survivors to actually get there. Any other killer can manage, why can't you? Arguing about pallet saves being so popular when they aren't isn't productive either. I haven't been pallet saved on for a very long time. Flashlight saves are nonexistent when you just face a wall or predict where they might be hiding by relating your survivor experiences.
If you're thrilled to encounter that, your MMR must be pretty bad. Extending chase in high MMR is a death sentence for killers. Being denied a hook state in exchange for a injured survivor you cannot down for ten seconds, under any circumstance, isn't fair either. Flashlight squads are so altruistic that four people slugged is usually the result. I'd take those games any day. If you're getting affected by power struggle, don't go through a pallet whilst carrying a survivor to a hook. Simple as that. If it's not the MMR, the people you faced are 100% solo queue with no coordination.
Waste time mending? Let's not exaggerate how long it takes. Counting down from ten won't do you any good as it's very easy to get to a loop in ten seconds.
If you're getting affected by power struggle, don't go through a pallet whilst carrying a survivor to a hookYou don't seem to understand how organized teams use power struggle. Survivor goes down on pallet while another survivor makes themselves visible nearby. Pick up, get pallet stunned. Chase, you now can't pick up the survivor. The downed survivor will likely have unbreakable to pick themselves up or a teammate ready to come in.
If you're thrilled to encounter that, your MMR must be pretty bad.Okay, let's play this game if you want.
I've hit multiple squads running buckle up + ftp and I don't have nearly as many hours as many people on this forum. By your admission, it was the first time you hit it, that's leaves two distinct possibilities.
The combo is something run at high MMRs, meaning I must have higher MMR than you.
I'm low MMR and you are high, meaning that its only really low MMR teams that run this combo, undercutting your argument that it is somehow a strong match.
I don't think MMR is relevant to such discussions, but you seem to.
Here's the things I'd much more worry about than a buckle up + ftp combo:
Gen rush
Power struggle mentioned above
Boil over + sabo + map (i.e. springwood).
A squad that knows when to body block to extend chases + syringes
It takes roughly five seconds. It takes a camera spin to check the area before hand in order to not allow extra time for survivors to actually get there.Do the survivors you get matched against not know how to crouch behind objects?
predict where they might be hiding by relating your survivor experiences.Why can't you do the same for Buckle Up + FTP?
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607768#Comment_3607768
Fake the pickup then. Do it twice to make sure. if they have Background Player then don't risk it at a pallet and maintain pressure via slugging if necessary. Background Player isn't even complained about. If they go down out in the open and you can't see other survivors out in the open, that's all on you.
In case you forgot, Buckle Up + For The People gives endurance to BOTH survivors and half of your chase is reset when you could have gotten a hook state. Since it's commonly used in SWFs, the survivors won't go down in silly areas where you can spot the other survivor and injure them before the perk can be used.
Fake the pickup then. Do it twice to make sure.How long does it take to fake the pickup? Check the area, make sure there is not anyone around, etc?
That's pretty much the same time you'd spend just following after the survivor who got picked up by buckle up + ftp with the added bonus that you now have an injured survivor out there and you know from this point on that if the survivor is injured their ability is of no danger.
You have three viable counters to buckle up + ftp. Catch the chasing survivor, again if you don't think pallet saves or flashlights are an issue this is just as easy if not easier because they have to be closer. Hit the survivor and chase the other - its prolonged the chase, but the survivor who used it now has to waste time mending and won't have time to heal for quite some time. Or start counting in your head and chase the survivor who got picked up.
I'm not a killer main but I've hit multiple survivor teams running this (I'm stunned you're this deep into the argument and it was your first time hitting it). Generally I'm thrilled to encounter it, like any perk it can be used at certain points to be powerful (which is the point of perks), but I see lots of survivors throw away health states. I would gladly hit this over a flashlight team or a squad using power struggle and pallet saves.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607012#Comment_3607012
"There's the argument that two people will be off generators as the perks require it. That could be the case sometimes, but people seem to forget about communication. It's very easy to predict when you'll go down to killers based on their skill and distance. Three people can work on generators, one person will just have to be near the chase doing a generator. This isn't difficult to achieve if someone's looping at shack and you're doing a generator nearby. As long as you're in the area and ready for the call, you have a opportunity to use it. Obviously that can't always be the case for zoning killers, but it's definitely possible. Two people on generators constantly is also more than enough to win games. [...] There's the argument about injuring the person following the chase. This is more easily said than done. With communication, it is very easy to get knocked in a designated area where a teammate is hiding. They don't always follow the chase, the other survivor brings the chase to them. If they do follow very blatantly, taking a hit means you lose all your progress on the injured survivor in exchange for a injure on a different survivor that will waste a mere 16 seconds of their time getting healed, ready to do it again." - my new discussion.
I didn't win. I only 'won' because the survivors didn't help them carry on with their nonsense and I admit that I would've lost. Flashlight saves and pallet saves are counterable. If you cannot use your headphones/headset to hear survivors nearby or turn to face against a wall, that's all on you.
All of this is true for pallet saves/flashlights.
If you cannot use your headphones/headset to hear survivors nearby or turn to face against a wall, that's all on you.This doesn't make sense. An organized team can go down on a pallet or in the open. The pallet / flashlight survivor has to be just as near to the chased target as buckle up + ftp. If you replace buckle up + ftp with background player, they don't even have to be in the vicinity. On top of that, the pallet /flashlight saver doesn't have to waste a health state to pull off the rescue and can do it again really soon as there's no cooldown.
Basically: if you can spot the person going for the pallet or flashlight save, you should be able to do the same thing for someone using buckle up + ftp.
Realistically, the only advantage buckle up + ftp have over other save methods is that you don't have to be in communication to use it. It's actually somewhat usable as a soloq because you don't have to rely on the other survivor to play in certain way.
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@Unequalmitten86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3605603#Comment_3605603
Everything is correct except the devs revert all healing back to original except Boon of Healing. This was done quietly and I think 4 or 5 updates ago.
The only time I am "gen tunneled" is when zlI am concentrated on a daily challenge and lose what I am doing. Mainly the Gunslinger and bird lady. Other than that patrolling is the main thing. I have killers hardcore tunnel and slug at 5 or 4 gens and they blame me for not running gen rushing perks, really though why is it my fault I didn't play the game the way you wanted it to go? I really question the mentality of what's left of the player base at times and a long break is maybe what is needed.
Everything is correct except the devs revert all healing back to original except Boon of Healing. This was done quietly and I think 4 or 5 updates ago.Unless I missed something, if we're talking about the healing nerfs that actually went 'live', we haven't had any changes since the nerf went into effect. Those were medkits and circle of healing. They had experimented with slowing down team healing as well in the PTB, but they thankfully walked that back.
Both of those changes are substantial though, especially circle of healing. Survivors, sometimes foolishly, would run across the map for a self-heal. This gave the killer massive slowdown, but from the killer perspective it looked like free heals.
I actually support both changes, medkits were way too powerful and circle of healing broke team interaction, but it had a substantial shift in how survivors play.
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@solarjin1 said:
whatttttttttt! no way.... how???
some of the vet forum users was telling me it was stronger than before. How is it not stronger with it highly situational activation requirement?? topsy turvy man
This will never stop being funny.
What I didn't expect was that after the nerf went through we'd still have voices arguing that it wasn't a nerf.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606928#Comment_3606928
Thats only accurate if you have a truly representative sample though. Which would require you to pick out 16k random players. But nightlight isn't looking at 16k random players. Its looking at players who know it exists, and who report data to it, which is going to be a very specific, very biased subset of players.
Also are you just going to glaze over the fact that for a month if i played nothing but twins games where i 0ked every game i could single handedly take the twins kill rate from 61% below 30%?
But nightlight isn't looking at 16k random players. Its looking at players who know it exists, and who report data to it, which is going to be a very specific, very biased subset of players.In this situation none of that is relevant.
We're comparing like population groups: people who used nightlight before and after the changes to MFT. Among that group we've seen MFT crater.
Is there any reason or evidence to think that this group is unique in how they've adjusted play?
Also are you just going to glaze over the fact that for a month if i played nothing but twins games where i 0ked every game i could single handedly take the twins kill rate from 61% below 25%?We're not talking about twins or speculation on if the system can be gamed doesn't mean it is being gamed. You can talk about the ability to manipulate killer data, but that is totally irrelevant to the survivor side data. Being there are four survivors in every game reported and the reporter could control at most 1 of them, all of this is a red herring.
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It's kind of the opposite of MFT. MFT really only saw its value amongst already skilled survivors, it made solid loopers untouchable. The extra 3% didn't do much for survivors who run into walls or can't track the killer.
I can see Wraith slaughtering survivors at lower MMRs, but at higher levels most survivors can counter it pretty easily. It's not a junk perk, but not S tier.
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@Xendritch said:
Shorten the timer to 60 seconds and let survivors be notified when it's active and it's probably fine.
I'd say the above and its good.
Doesn't seem that crazy compared to something like devour hope, would encourage survivors to stay healthy if the killer is spreading hooks (which works against the meta and also gives killers some slowdown), and works against tunneling. I imagine like many things if we went killer by killer we'd find one where its problematic, but that's the issue with killer perks.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606254#Comment_3606254
Most people whine because they hate it when you still win even when they have such an advantage.
Most people whine because they hate it when you still win even when they have such an advantage.You're the one who won that game, but you're on here complaining about it.
FTP+Buckle Up isn't as strong as a flashlight or a pallet save.
There are situations where it can get a lot of value, but usually it results in survivors chasing each other around instead of doing gens.
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As a 100% soloq player I'd be happy if SWFs didn't exist, but that game isn't built around me. SWFs aren't going anywhere and BHVR isn't going to put additional requirements on them.
Four main reasons:
1: The gap between an average SWF and a clock call out team is immense. If you tried to bring average SWFs down to even the game change would be very minor and wouldn't impact the higher level SWFs in any meaningful way.
2: Average SWFs frequently have players of differing skill levels. This means the advantage they gain from communication is offset by the team strength.
3: It's not worth BHVR's time. There are far more important issues with overall game balance than continually adjusting the SWF handicap.
4: It would financially be the wrong move. If the idea of a handicap had been present from the moment SWFs were introduced, maybe, but at this point it would be a massive turn off to the community.
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I do disagree with those who say its a penalty, unfair, or unlike any other game. As a SWF you gain advantages, realistically having them offset isn't a penalty (as I mentioned above the problem is that different SWFs have very different levels of advantages). As for other games, the difference is that the killer doesn't have any friends they can bring into the game. The issues of comms is totally a one sided issue.
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@tyrese112499 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3604957#Comment_3604957
fair but then they can make the mode completely random so new players can learn perks too. Idk just a spitball idea
They'd probably never do access to all perks.
What could happen is the requirement that a player has a minimum level of perks unlocked (say 50, just a guess) before they could access the mode. All random is not something a person should be playing in there first two weeks of DbD anyway.
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So many reasons.
1: Presumption that survivors don't complain about the uber gen rush builds.
2: Survivors would generally love more to do. Buff boons and chests and survivors would be happy to do them.
3: Rushing gens can still result in a nasty 3 gen which means the killer has a chance. A hard tunnel on the killer side means the survivors have no chance but the game isn't that close to being finished.
4: A hard tunnel usually involves a proxy camp, which results in a guessing game. If the killer proxy camps the first hook and the survivors ignore it, survivors hefty advantage. If they rush in for the rescue thinking the killer left, killer advantage.
5: From day 1 survivors are likely to encounter tunneling killers. Survivors who can uber gen rush are rare and many players might never encounter them.
6: Doing a gen doesn't weaken the killer in any way. I've seen plenty of games where killers (sometimes me as killer, sometimes as survivor) comes back from just 1 gen remaining. It's not even that rare for the killer to turn games around. I can think of very few games where I've seen the survivors manage anything like that after a early tunnel.
7: It's a result of the healing nerf. When the healing nerfs where being discussed many survivors said 'this means I'll just stay injured on gens'. I'm generalizing here, but killers got what they wanted and things are playing out exactly as many people predicted.
8: While the survivors rushing through gens put the killer at a disadvantage, the killer still gets to play the game, just at a disadvantage. A hard tunneled survivor gets little gameplay and very little BP.
9: Unlike survivors, killers do have other strategies. Killers can spread pressure and there are perks to encourage not just going after one survivor. Survivors should do gens, rescue each other, and heal. Pretty much anything else is a waste of time.
10: Picking off the weakest link is annoying gameplay, especially in soloq. In soloq a survivor has no control over their teammates, watching one get downed, hooked, rescued, and immediately downed again means the game is lost, and some of the survivors might never even have engaged with the killer at that point.
11: The counter to tunneling is to gen rush. Killers say they tunnel because of the speed of gens, but if the survivor know the killer is tunneling the strategy is to just leave the survivor on the hook (w/ reassurance if they have it).
12: Survivors strategy is not actually to 'tunnel' gen if you are trying to carry over that term, the most effective strategy is to spread out and do as many gens as possible. 3 survivors tunneling a gen is a really bad idea outside of limited circumstances, which would be comparable to the killer strategy of tunneling a survivor. Even in a situation where there are 3 gens left and 4 survivors, the survivors should split up on either end of the 3 gens.
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@CompleatBeet said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8QNQLT85N11Q/image.png
This is my take, allow me to explain my thoughts!
Nurse - She's been untouched for 7 and a half years now, come on BHVR. She'll always be broken as long as her Blink can go through walls
Myers - Outdated and awful to play as against good Survivors, needs a new kit
Freddy - Most boring Killer by far, also awful and unfaithful to the franchise, needs a new kit
Clown - Obnoxious to play against and weak
Sadako - She either kills everyone in 5 minutes or is held hostage by the Survivors
Trapper - I think he'll be fine with some solid buffs, he doesn't need a rework IMO
Billy - Overheat should be removed
Legion - They need to remove the mending aspect from their kit a different status effect that doesn't take up eons to get rid of
Ghostface - Reveal mechanic is broken, Survivors should get punished in some way for revealing IMO like a 10 second mark or something
Pyramid Head - Needs a full add-on pass
Blight - Add-ons are atrociously strong and need to be nerfed, base kit could use some nerfs too
Trickster - They need to look at the "buff" again because he's somehow worse than before
Artist - Birds need a maximum range, how is she able to injure people, chase and force people off gens from Narnia?
Xenomorph - He should not be able to enter tunnels at the start of the game, needs a cooldown like Sadako's TVs
What are your opinions?
Nurse - She's been untouched for 7 and a half years now, come on BHVR. She'll always be broken as long as her Blink can go through walls]As a survivor I suck against Nurse, but I do see other survivors who seem to deal with her without much problem.
Myers - Outdated and awful to play as against good Survivors, needs a new kitMyers power fits. The only real issue with him is the tombstone pieces. I like the idea, but it can be really annoying to lose a survivor right away. I could see the basekit of his tier 3 lasting longer.
Freddy - Most boring Killer by far, also awful and unfaithful to the franchise, needs a new kitTeleport is good, but his secondary power could be a lot stronger.
Clown - Obnoxious to play against and weakHe's fine.
Sadako - She either kills everyone in 5 minutes or is held hostage by the SurvivorsThat sounds like a lot of killers, many games are stomps one way or the other.
Trapper - I think he'll be fine with some solid buffs, he doesn't need a rework IMOBHVR likes the idea of weaker killers for new players. I think he's generally fine, especially if you throw on some of his better addons. He can either be played to lock down an area, basement a survivor, or just throw traps in random bushes and hope.
Billy - Overheat should be removedOkay.
Legion - They need to remove the mending aspect from their kit a different status effect that doesn't take up eons to get rid ofI don't know what that would be without a massive nerf to the killer. Some new effect like gen slowdown?
Ghostface - Reveal mechanic is broken, Survivors should get punished in some way for revealing IMO like a 10 second mark or somethingWhat? Survivors should reveal ghostface and ghostface should try not to get revealed.
Pyramid Head - Needs a full add-on passNo real opinion
Blight - Add-ons are atrociously strong and need to be nerfed, base kit could use some nerfs tooBlight basekit if fine
Trickster - They need to look at the "buff" again because he's somehow worse than beforeYeah, they messed this up.
Artist - Birds need a maximum range, how is she able to injure people, chase and force people off gens from Narnia?No, this is what makes the Artist unique. Birds can be dodged.
Xenomorph - He should not be able to enter tunnels at the start of the game, needs a cooldown like Sadako's TVsThat's not necessary.
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I'd like it to, but I suspect something on BHVR's mind is if they released it would there be players who would only prestige certain characters to give themselves the best random perk setup possible.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3604690#Comment_3604690
Can you escape SoloQ against him? I have him but never played him. Maybe if I learn how to play him, I'll be better against him 😔
I'm a 100% soloq player and in terms of killers to hit, pretty happy to see Pinhead. Compared to other ranged killers, his ranged attack is not that hard to dodge and even when it hits doesn't guarantee a health state loss. The box has never struck me as that devastating. My biggest fear is the survivor who grabs the box to lure pinhead into a chase, but then isn't actually that good in chase.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3603442#Comment_3603442
You are missing the point. Look at the meta for both sides and how it has changed over the years. For context, i first started around the time just before legion was released so that is where my knowledge of metas goes back to.
Killer metas:
- First we have our baseline around patch 2.4 (when i started playing, i don't have knowledge of the game's metas before this)
- Ruin + Pop (gen defense)
- Then in 3.5.0 they changed ruin to the passive regression we have and people switched
- Corrupt + Pop (gen defense)
- Then in 4.2.0 blight came out and we got undying so everyone switched again
- Ruin + Undying + tinkerer (gen defense)
- Then in 4.5.0 they changed undying to only work one time instead of switching totems constantly so people switched for a bit to the recently buffed thana in patch 4.3.0
- Forever builds [Thana/Dying Light/Sloppy/legion/plague/freddy] remember forever freddy? (gen defense)
- People realized that ruin + undying was still good so they switched back to that
- Ruin + Undying + tinkerer (gen defense)
- Patch 5.4 saw us getting pain resonance, and around that time we had 4 solid builds that most people used depending on the killer or their playstyle
- Ruin + Undying + tinkerer (gen defense based on pressure)
- Pop + Corrupt + tinkerer (gen defense based on kicking)
- Pain Resonance + Dead man's Switch + Corrupt + tinkerer (Gen defense based on hooks)
- Hex Plaything + Hex Pentimento + Corrupt (Gen defense based on totems), this one was used much less because of circle of healing, but it still was around.
- Patch 6.1 was the infamous "meta shakeup" where they buffed thanataphobia, overcharge, and surge and eruption, and nerfed pain resonance/dead mans switch combo, tinkerer ruin and pop. For a few weeks people were confused on what to do as a killer so things were shifting around quickly but:
- First people realized the buffed thana brought back forever builds, so we again had
- Thanataphobia + Dying light + Corrupt + sloppy on legion/plague/freddy/etc. (gen defense)
- They very quickly gutted thana to be completely useless in 6.1.2 after that, then people started looking at the infamous 3 gen era
- Call of Brine + Eruption + Overcharge (Gen defense)
- This only became worse in 6.4 when they released the knight and we got nowhere to hide.
- Call of Brine + Eruption + Overcharge + Nowhere to hide (Gen defense)
- Then in 6.6.0 they nerfed Eruption but 3 gen was still a thing with
- Call of Brine + Overcharge + Nowhere to hide (Gen defense)
- Then in 6.7 they gutted call of brine and overcharge and changed pain resonance to be what we have now and work with DMS again
- Pain Resonance + Dead man's Switch + Corrupt (Gen defense)
- Then 7.0 they buffed pop back up to reasonable levels again and we have the meta we have now today
- Pain resonance + Pop + Corrupt (Gen defense)
You'll see in there sometimes we have 1 or 2 extra perk slots to fill up depending on the patch and the killer, but in general most top tier players used the same 3 perks every game with some small variety from there. But what is important is the functionality of those perks. Since 2.4 (and probably before, i just don't know) the killer meta has always been "take the best gen defense combo you can and whatever else you want" every single time.
Yes, technically COB/OC/Eruption is a "little" different than Ruin + Undying, but functionally they are exactly the same. They serve the same purpose. Everytime they nerf the current "Thing" people just gravitate to the next best" thing" and that "Thing" is never something interesting like "lets be stronger in chase" or "lets get a ton of information" the "thing" is always "delay the gens as long as possible"
The survivor side you'll mostly see the same thing as well where every survivor takes
1) the most broken exhaustion perk
2) Some sort of anti tunnel perk (DS/BT/OTR/whatever)
3) Some sort of gen perk (prove thyself/hyperfocus)
4) Some kind of wildcard
Maybe the perks themselves change, but functionally they serve the same purpose.
You are missing the point.I'll go back to what I put in my post
Gen regression perks are always going to be part of the game unless you define meta shakeup as rewrite the game codeThere's only so many things that perks can do in this game. Meta shakeups are going to play around with the formula of what gets run, but its not going to change the gameplay on a fundamental level. That would require a rebuild of the game.
- First we have our baseline around patch 2.4 (when i started playing, i don't have knowledge of the game's metas before this)
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The perks are fine. If you told me Pop was getting a tiny nerf I'd understand, but being BHVR doesn't do tiny I'd rather they not touch it. Both perks can be played around and/or brute forced through.
@Reinami said:
I mentioned this in a previous thread but survivor mains told me i was wrong.
The meta shakeup was pointless. All it did was change which perks were used, but the perks that are still used are functionally the same. Killers still take 3-4 gen slowdown perks, its just now instead of it being ruin or cob/oc/eruption its pain res/pop. Still regressing gens functionally, but slightly different.
Survivors still run perks that allow them to rush gens (resilience/hyperfocus/adrenaline (takes away the punishment of not healing)) or extend chases (windows/any exhaustion perk) or to prevent the killer from "killing" (DS/OTR/UB).
You'll still see functionally the same perks every game, its just that the perks may change. This will continue to happen regardless of how many meta shakeups they do, until the fundamental game is completely changed such that these perks are no longer necessary.
Ideally, the game should be balanced in such a way that both sides can take 0 perks, 0 items, 0 addons and win 50% of the time.
The meta shakeup was pointless. All it did was change which perks were used, but the perks that are still used are functionally the same.No, they're radically different. Have people forgotten how long a game could drag on because of Overbrine? Or how Eruption just left survivors unable to do anything but run around?
Gen regression perks are always going to be part of the game unless you define meta shakeup as rewrite the game code - the current setup is both healthier and feels substantially different from what it used to be.
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The biggest challenge of soloq is hoping your teammates play 'rationally'.
Couple of things to think about without kindred (I run it sometimes, but not that much):
1: Someone might be running a rescue build (We'll Make It and/or Reassurance). Let them take priority on the unhooks.
2: You don't have to rush to unhook, let the killer get in chase with someone else. If everyone stays on gens and no one is forced off that's not a horrible thing.
3: Where are you on the map? Have you seen any other survivors recently? If you are on the opposite side of where the hook is and you haven't seen any survivors recently, it's likely they are nearer than you are.
4: If you are close to the hook and playing against a killer with a terror radius, have a clock in your head about how long it will be before the killer gets to your gen. If they don't come towards you, that means they probably went the other direction, which means its your role to go get the unhook.
As someone else mentioned, if two people make it to the hook, team up the heal, that makes it harder for the killer to come back for the tunnel.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602987#Comment_3602987
I generally play every killer, but i am a nurse main because she is the only killer who can compete at that level.
And that is precisely my point. The same people in this forum who will complain about that blight on a 1k win streak are the exact same people who will look at people like ayrun/otz/hens doing their big win streaks handicapping themselves as "totally fine" because "most people aren't at that level"
If one is ok, than the other is ok.
If one is not ok, than the other is not ok.
You don't get to have it both ways.
The same people in this forum who will complain about that blight on a 1k win streak are the exact same people who will look at peopleHere's the problem with your argument. This is a strawman. I am sure there are some individuals who act like this, which in that case you are welcome to discuss their positions. However you can't just lump everyone into this group.
Every person on this forum has different thoughts and nuances about the game.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3601949#Comment_3601949
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3601956#Comment_3601956
Here's an example in a game i JUST played.
So i intentionally was playing nice. Trying to go for chases and go for multiple hooks on everyone. I hook a guy near a gen at like 80%, there were 3 gens left for them to do. I leave the hook, start chasing someone else. The guy gets unhooked right. So i turn to look over, and he IMMEDIATELY hops on that gen at 80%. Meaning i now KNOW he doesn't have OTR, he doesn't have DS, he doesn't have BT, he has nothing. He is still injured, and he isn't healing.
In this situation, i chose not to go for him, because i was intentionally playing nice. I ended up still getting a win that game anyway, and that isn't what is important. The point i'm making is. If i had gone after that guy, and punished him for his mistake there. I would have been called out, called a "tunneler trash killer" etc. So my point is. Why is it ok for survivors to do what the guy did, but the killer punishing that guy is suddenly some kind of grand injustice? I'm merely pointing out the double standard here and wondering why most people aren't seeing it.
The point i'm making is. If i had gone after that guy, and punished him for his mistake there. I would have been called out, called a "tunneler trash killer" etc.This is supposition on how a person might have reacted. In my games end game chat of any type if pretty rare, at most a 'gg gl next'. Sure, there are games when people are toxic, but its usually silence.
But let's say your region is different. Okay, don't take the comments people make after a game as serious. Trolling is, regrettably, a thing and many people are likely just trying to get a rise out of you because they lost. No one is going to post 'Hey, great job killer, I thought you were distracted by another chase, so I jumped on a gen, good eye seeing me there!' That's just not how people talk in online games.
In my experience on these forums most people who complain about tunneling want the emphasis to be on BHVR to make changes. There's definitely an element of targeting killers if they pursue an 'unfun' playstyle, but that goes both ways. Killers complain about survivors bringing 4 BNPs, ideally they'd like BHVR to address that, but barring it would prefer players to stop.
Ultimately fun is why both sides complain about the issue so much. Losing a survivor quickly results in a pointless slog for the remaining 3, SWF gen rush makes the killer feel like they can't even play the game.
Play how you want. I don't tunnel as killer because I hate the experience of being 3 v 1 with anything more than 2 gens left to go. If the chat bothers you, turn it off.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3601997#Comment_3601997
Hey, can you record some videos and post them on youtube to show us how you are able to do this? Would love to learn from someone who is really good with trapper as i'm pretty trash with him. You can use OBS (the same software streamers use) to record videos totally free and upload them to youtube also totally free. No need to talk, or do any fancy editing. Just seeing some good matches would be great.
He's being sarcastic, Dunwich generally finds survivor complaints to be without merit from what I recall.
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@Raccoon said:
You can't fix tunneling without removing the killer's agency/ability to eliminate someone from the game when they NEED to (ie - the game is going poorly, they need a come back, etc).
Granted, I personally think it is fine if the killer wants to remove someone at any given point in the game, too, as it is an elimination game and the killer has the agency to chase/hit/hook whoever they want at any given time.
All these changes I see just lead to scenarios where the killer would auto-lose without hampering/hindering survivor efficiency (the reason for permanently removing someone) - Where would the incentive be for them to keep playing?
You can't fix tunneling without removing the killer's agency/ability to eliminate someone from the game when they NEED to (ie - the game is going poorly, they need a come back, etc).Where would the incentive be for them to keep playing?Where is the survivors incentive to keep playing when a survivor is eliminated and there are still 4 gens to go?
Yes, DbD is an elimination game. If you define tunneling as any attempt to target a specific player its going to be impossible to fix. I'd like a system that makes it much harder for a killer to target a survivor from the very beginning of the game. If the killer can get at least one other survivor on the hook, no problem. But games where one survivor is eliminated very early are not really fun games to be in.
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@pale_hispanic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598768#Comment_3598768
You don’t need perks to counter half the things you just said.
Which I noted in the post (quote: "Some of the above list are absolutely fine, as Seraphor already mentioned most of these don't break the game."). But it goes to show the amount of things survivors are expected to predict making the chance they're going to predict something like 3 genning very low.
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@イエローミント said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596760#Comment_3596760
What I mean is that it's natural for perks to have no effect unless equipped, and bringing anti-3-gen perks like Deja Vu is a survivor's choice. Now, even SM has been adjusted to not easily become a 3-gen, and I always bring Deja Vu when playing solo Q. BHVR said "DBD is a game of choices." Why make everything a base kit without differentiation in choices?
Because the game shouldn't be decided by random guessing.
Killer camping? Did someone remember to bring Reassurance?
Killer 3 genning? Did someone bring potential energy/deja vu?
Killer slugging? Sure hope you have unbreakable equipped.
Killer finding everyone with ultimate weapon? Should have run calm spirit.
Killer on hex build? Why aren't you running counterforce?
Killer tunneling you out? You should have run off the record and decisive strike.
It's bad game design. If the killer have strategies that need to be countered by perks or else the survivors lose, the game comes down to whether the survivors guessed right in their perk selection. This especially becomes problematic when you look at soloq and having no idea whether you should be the anti-tunneler or anti-camper.
Perks should give advantages, but whether you have a perk or not should not decide the game. Some of the above list are absolutely fine, as Seraphor already mentioned most of these don't break the game. You can still deal with a killer who has aura reading if you don't have distortion, and a killer can still deal with a survivor if they do have distortion, it just creates an advantage.
Compare this to 3 genning. In games were the survivors happen to have potential energy, they win easily. If they don't, it's a slog. The perk doesn't give an advantage, it decides the game.
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Generally agree, my only issue is that some of the things feel like they shouldn't take that much time. I understand spreading out killer reworks and that the quality of life changers take coding, but the perks seem like they should be much quicker. If you have a roadmap change for decisive strike there's really no reason (other than the argument the game should go through meta changes) that it couldn't be tested tomorrow.
Like I'm trying imagine a calendar on in BHVR's office and April 5th has 'Rework Decisive Strike to ???'. More likely they already know the perk changes they want to make and could test those at any time they wanted.
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@pale_hispanic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597257#Comment_3597257
Considering someone in the thread was lowkey supporting it I really don’t think it’s a “conspiracy”
It's certainly possible some people play that way. In fact, I'd say given how many players there are, inevitable. On both sides.
The idea though that there are enough people doing it to even make a dent in the numbers is where the conspiracy part silliness comes in.
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Never understood the hatred of going against him after the end of Overbrine. I wouldn't want to play him constantly, but he's fun to match against.
Playing as him I find to be really enjoyable.
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I don't have a list of rules, but I do try to play nice until at least 2 or 3 gens are finished or the team seems to be really coordinated. By play nice I mean don't eliminate someone, target different survivors, don't stay around hooks, don't set up a 3 gen. Once we're a few gens in though it's go all out.
I used to have more rules, but over time as my MMR improved I generally didn't need them to make Killer entertaining anymore.
I do tend to let survivors escape if they really try to rescue each other in the end game.
If someone on the survivors is afk or suicides on hook, I'll probably just let them finish the gens and leave.
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@Volkfang said:
In the live cast they said this:
"We've developed a system that should not affect normal gameplay but is going to look at those trials where we can detect the player is actively playing for the 3 gen."
I'm concerned because it seems like the mindset they're adopting to address pain points in the gameplay loop is all stick and no carrot. The anti-facecamping mechanic I think worked out nicely, it's not too punishing if normal gameplay leads you to a hooked survivor for killers and it eliminates alot of the most egregious cases of the killer just face camping you if your playing survivor.
However, once you starting adding additional mechanics that punish the killer for being in a certain area, then what? You hook a survivor, and hurry away to avoid the anti face camp. So you go defend the gens that are closest together to maintain pressure and map control. Once you get there now you're worried about the anti 3 gen mechanic. Now what? Hopefully you get a chase in between, but if not, do you go run to the edge of the map to check that one gen way out there knowing you're going to lose pressure and large chunks of progression on the other gens? Just so you don't get punished by the anti-X mechanics? That's going to feel really bad. The more mechanics that are added that restrict the killers ability to control the map the less they are going to feel like the 1 in the 1v4, the worse the immersion will feel, and the more it'll just feel like you're dodging land mines all game, fighting against the game itself instead of the other team.
I think the much better option is to add incentives to have players do the things you want them to do. Devour Hope and Pain Res are some of the healthiest perks in this game imo (grim embrace would be to if it wasn't so underwhelming, thankfully its getting addressed) because it incentivizes one side to play in a way that's more fun for the other as well. To be honest, I thought this was kind of game design 101. But i'm not a game designer so what do I know.
It just concerns me for the long term health of the game if the answer to unfun and irritating points in the gameplay loop are answered with a heavy handed punishment mechanic rather than a carrot that could improve enjoyment of the game for both sides.
I think the much better option is to add incentives to have players do the things you want them to do.I'm going to be in the all stick, no carrot approach here.
The problem with the carrot approach, which was one of BHVR's major design flaws, is what happens if a player doesn't care? This was a major issue in Deathgarden (similar game by BHVR) where the Killer (Hunter) could execute a survivor (Scav) after the first down, but they got more points if they did an execution later.
Except what happens if a player doesn't care about points and just winning? Well, they kill right away. That was the most common experience.
If you don't want a design element to be in the game, don't let it be in the game. Full stop. I'll throw in 2 survivors hiding for hatch here as an example that they should smash to pieces on the other side. Don't deal with it via perks or points, if it is an element of the game that clearly results in unfun, dragged out situations, destroy it.
That's what anti-face camp did. I've seen one game so far where this triggered (basement trapper). It totally removed a problematic game element.
Hopefully they do the same with 3 genning, but I'll wait to see the actual solution.
@LordGlint said:
There are ways to deal with 3 genning without affecting normal gameplay. If they do something like have a counter on gen kicking for example, it can be pretty easy to detect what's going on. Normal gameplay does NOT involve kicking the same gen 20+ times.
If they did something like place a limit on the amount of times you can kick any individual gen... 3 genning would be over. Just have to make sure that limit is at such a number that it does not affect normal gameplay.
I've always thought a kick limit would really help. My guess is that the design philosophy is that killers don't run out of things (outside of Myers for some reason), so a kick limit would do that. But I think if they'd put in an amount of times a killer could kick (either per gen or overall total) we might never have even had the Overbrine/skull merchant problems we encountered.
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597563#Comment_3597563
Just spitballing here, but what if regression from kicking a specific gen reduced at certain kick counts, where each kick is multiplied by the amount of gens left to be done?
That way, if the killer is trying to hold a specific 3-gen from the start and survivors try to do that first, each kick would be multiplied by 5 and you'd feasibly hit those kick count marks to get penalised, whereas if the survivors do four gens and then end up 3-genned, it'd take 5 times as long.
I don't have a problem with the idea, it just feels unnecessarily complicated.
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If they massively nerfed 3 gens you could throw in all three of those suggestions and it would be a massive survivor buff.
3 genning is being looked at because it's not a desired game mechanic and, while that has been true for many things in DbD, this is something a lot of people don't find fun. The game of attack, retreat, heal as you slowly progress the gens is not a fun game. Given that BHVR is giving it attention it sounds like that is frequent feedback they have gotten.
Of the 3 mechanics mentioned, the only one that falls into that category is the 99ing gates (which is also why people here were happy to jump in on that). I also hate 99ed gates, my solution would be that EGC begins the moment the 5th gen completes (though it would have like an extra minute)
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596580#Comment_3596580
When people say balance in the middle they mean the following:
If something is super OP at a high level, but fine at a low level, then it is fine, and doesn't need changes
If something is super OP at a low level, but underpowered at a high level, then it needs nerfs
If something is super OP at a high level, super op at a low level, but mostly fine in the middle, then it is fine.
When i say "low level" i mean the vast majority of the players.
I disagree with all of these statements. Anyone who says "balance in the middle" also must BY DEFINITION also believe that nurse needs MASSIVE buffs. Because every time they release data for her, she is by far the lowest kill rate killer in the game. So my question to you is.
Do you balance around top tier players or the "average" (majority) of players?
If you balance around top tier players, then it is probably time to nerf blight and nurse while massively nerfing survivors as a whole, or massively buffing killers as a whole because teams like oracle and eternal exist and if they queued up for a game together they would probably have a near 100% win rate.
If you balance around average (the majority/middle) of players, then nurse will need some massive buffs because she is by far the lowest kill rate killer in the game. And while we are at it, we need to be nerfing, sadako, pig, pinhead, plague, dredge, freddy, myers, legion etc.
Now, do you honestly believe that killers like freddy and myers need NERFS? and that nurse needs BUFFS? Nobody here is going to defend that outside of a few people i disagree with but at least applaud their consistency on the matter, like pulsar.
The point is, you cannot hold both of these statements to be true:
- blight main on a 1k win streak is a problem. Team oracle on a 1k win streak is not a problem.
You don't get to have it both ways. If you balance for the average player, you MUST take that to its only logical end point, and if you are not willing to do so, then you are just pure an simply biased toward survivors.
I disagree with all of these statements.Everything from this point on is a strawman you are arguing with. You're typing these really long posts without even seeing if you and the person you are arguing against are talking about the same thing.
When people say balance in the middle they mean the following:You are being disingenuous to anyone you are arguing with if that list is the presumption you are going with.
I keep going back and looking at your shack example from the prior page and thinking, yeah, balance to the middle, that's such an excellent example.
Anyone who says "balance in the middle" also must BY DEFINITION also believe that nurse needs MASSIVE buffs.That's a false dichotomy, you are saying there are only two possibilities, and that isn't true. I'll give you two other scenarios someone could believe
1: The Nurse should be reworked to be less punishing to start with but less powerful once mastered
2: The BHVR design philosophy of some killers being stronger when a player has more practice in them is a good design. Basically, there should be starter and expert killer modes.
I disagree with number 2, but it is a point of view someone could have that totally throws out your BY DEFINITION of what you think they need to be talking about.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596521#Comment_3596521
Incorrect
Look at any multiplayer game. They always balance for the top while ACCOUNTING for the low level.
For example in LoL there was a character that was super high win rate in lower tiers but never played at competitive level because he was terrible. The result was to rework the character entirely in a way that made him better at a high level but worse at a lower level.
IncorrectWhen you hear people say balance to the middle, what do you think they mean?
I had a much longer post to go here, but I've gone through this loop with you before, and I now think that there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what balance to the middle means. Your argument about the shack is one of the best 'balance to the middle' arguments I've ever seen, yet you are saying you are against it.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595680#Comment_3595680
You don't balance around the middle. That is not something that is sustainable. This video explains the concept a bit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203s
I timestamped the relevant section. They are talking about team fortress, but the concept still applies. Basically, if you look at the kinds of things that super good survivors are capable of doing and then nerf those things, you won't affect other survivors.
For example. Lets look at killer shack. What is a way they could nerf killer shack that makes the structure much more dangerous for top tier survivor players without hurting low skill survivor players? How about making it so you can't see through it at all. Many of the maps have a ton of holes in the shack that survivors can see through that makes mindgaming it effectively impossible against a decent survivor.
But, if they took that away, and they made the structure mindgamable, now a killer might stand more of a chance against a top tier survivor. But how would that impact the low skill survivors? Well it wouldn't because they aren't checking at these "check spots" for the killer anyway, they are busy running into shack, camping the pallet, and dropping it right as they get hit anyway and going down 5 seconds later. So doing such a change won't hurt them at all.
On the flip side, low skill survivors vs high skill survivors. I still stand by that the greatest balance change that BHVR has ever done, was change ruin. Not nerfing it to 100%, that was stupid, i mean the change before that:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YD4IQIBEYBF3/image.png
This ruin was a staple among every killer. For those who remember Monto. You always took ruin every game to "slow the game down just a little bit" But look at the effect here. This made doing gens as a new player MISERABLE. First of all, you could actually end up LOSING ton of progress on gens just due to landing regular skill checks, so now you had to hit great skill checks. Well, low skill survivors can barely hit skill checks as it is, let alone great skill checks. On top of that, the other option is to find the totem, something which was much easier said than done as a new player. This lead to the "gen tapping" meta, where you spammed m1 on the gen, so that you wouldn't get a skill check.
Obviously a horribly OP perk against newer/lesser skilled players.
What about the high skilled ones though? They didn't really care. They could constantly hit great skill checks in their sleep anyway, so this perk wasn't really that good against them (it was still used because there just weren't any good perks back then) but the perk didn't really do anything against them, On top of that, these survivors generally knew ruin was in play every game so would immediately start looking for it, and since they memorized totem spawn locations, it would generally last maybe 30-40 seconds against these types of teams.
So what change did they make?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PNOVF2J695X9/image.png
This massively nerfed ruin against low skill survivors but massively buffed it against high skill survivors. Because killers at a low level, weren't able to exploit this version of ruin to its full effectiveness. On top of that, it promoted healthy play that forced the killer to pressure multiple survivors and generators in order to get value, rather than just hard camping like the other one did. High skill killers were able to do this much better than lower skill killers, making the perk much strong in those higher level games.
AFC is another example of this. In high tier games, facecamping is gonna lose you the game anyway, so its a bad strategy, but in low skill games it happens all the time. So the AFC nerfed this tactic in low level play, without really impacting high level play because it wasn't used there anyway.
There are plenty of these types of changes that can be done on both sides to only affect the level of play that you are targeting for the change.
You don't balance around the middle. That is not something that is sustainable. This video explains the concept a bit:Your whole post, and the video, read like you agree with the concept that we should balance around the middle. You're just arguing over semantics that I don't think anyone even disagrees with.
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It's one of those perks that SWFs have a much easier time dealing with. Just have the obsession become the chased target. In a soloq, even if every survivor is trying their best, the obsession might never have been in a situation to see the perk is in use.
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Well, it's not broken.
Survivors trade off gen pressure and receive a broken health state to keep a chase going. Which might be worth it for the survivors if the downed survivor just happens to be near the one with this combo, or if its done to keep the chased survivor from being eliminated, but otherwise survivors who can coordinate are better off with pallet saves or flashlights.
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At the simplest level they might just be looking at gen spawn logics. Some maps lend themselves to unbreakable 3 gens much more than others. There are a lot of maps in the game though, so not sure it would work out.
Putting a limitation on how many kicks a killer has would also be a good idea. It would be like anti-facecamp, it wouldn't even touch the way most players are in a game, but would greatly hinder the activity the devs want to stop.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3589191#Comment_3589191
In the end game, with a gate remotely in proximity, when the killer cannot afford spreading damage bc that would allow all to run out, this combo guarantees free espapes without any risk. I wouldn't call that balanced.
What's mind-blowing about that, the devs are fully aware that some effects are too strong in end game, so they safeguard it. DS, OTR, Pig traps, AFC, eben Batteries Included, all disabling in end game. But then they rework buckle and don't seem to think a second what that could mean in end game.
I'll stick with that this is a fun issue, not balance.
To be in this scenario survivors must:
1: Make it to the end game. Not just the survivors as a group, but specifically the one who needs to use this perk.
2: The survivor with FTP+Buckle Up to be uninjured (meaning that they could not have used the ability within the last minute + how ever long it took to get healed).
3: The killer to not have seen this during the rest of the game to avoid opportunity to play around it.
This is like NOED or other end game perks by the killer. The survivors don't have any direct way to outplay them (especially that first NOED hit) other than just never letting the killer be in a position to get value from them.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592907#Comment_3592907
Thanks, youve completely missed the fine details from that match, but I'll explain it to you again.
A comp level blight, getting an early kill at 3 gens (essentially making the game a 3 v 1), STILL managed to lose all 5 gens + gate opened (while having pop for slowdown), against Survivors that were severely limited in perk choice and item choice.
Heres the video for reference:
https://youtu.be/Lcv_kApsE0A?si=4seeQU3-K3sIPamN
Now, if a 5 gen pop + gate open + almost 3E with only 3 survivors alive for 90% of the match is the end result.
What do you reckon would happen if the survivors weren't perk/item limited, just the way it is in public matches?
He was pretty accurate in his comment. It was also hilarious.
If survivors are so overpowered, how'd the Blight even manage to get a single kill? It's not like the survivors just gave that kill to him.
I watched this video when it came out, this would be like posting a video were a soccer team came back from 5-0 to show that comebacks are easy. Otz and the announcers are blown away by how well the survivors play and that the survivors start winning lots of really close calls.
A couple things worth pointing out:
-The scoring system at play. The primary score in this system is how many gens get finished. The killer strongly commits to stopping that from happening. He probably could have easily guaranteed a 4e by getting a survivor out and giving up a gen and downing them before they got to the gates, but the gen takes priority.
-You point out that the survivors have perk bans, so does the killer. Otz literally noted that in the first 30 seconds.
-The survivors have all of their hook stages to go. The match is a very slow process.
-While there are two gens left, one of them is a freebie that the Blight isn't even worrying about.
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The first thing to do is define tunneling and when it should be addressed.
By tunneling I mean the killer targeting a single survivor and eliminating them with the first 3 hooks of the game. Some people have posts talking about tunneling as if its the expectation that a killer needs to 8 hook to not be considered a tunneler. While I've been in games against survivors who will yell tunnel in the end game chat even if I was at 7 hooks before the first elimination, people who are looking for reasonable ways to make the game better are looking at the first.
Why is it an issue? Well, its not fun for anyone. Even if they win, the other 3 survivors basically sat on gens, while the one chased target either was great at chases, and this was exactly what he wanted, or outmatched and destroyed. If they don't win then you have a one sided match up where the killer slowly picks off the survivors who no longer have a realistic chance.
If something is not considered fun by the overall community, BHVR should address it. How they do it in a balanced way is the question.
I'd absolutely nuke tunneling if I could. Much like the anti-face camp model, if you don't want it in the game, don't address it with perks, just destroy it. If the killers first three hooks are against the same survivor, all other survivors get a 200% boost to gen speeds. This doesn't trigger if a survivor progresses a hook state via not being rescued or bleeding out on the ground.
If the killer hooks at least one other survivor though, the above disappears.
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So if I understand the question correctly: it's not which killers do I personally dislike, but which do I feel like are at a much higher tier level than others find them.
Plague and Clown. Plague is partly me up in my head about getting infected, but Clown I don't know how others loop him so easily. I seem to just constantly be in a hindered cloud and am run down in seconds.
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Peanits already covered the killrate/winrate.
You mentioned reasons that killers might give free escapes, Peanits mentioned one thing that goes the other way (free kills - which I think almost never happens), but there is one other thing to consider:
If one survivor gives up / plays well below their ability / plays a very silly game - it will tank the survivors. The most obvious example of this is a hook suicide because they don't like the map and/or killer, but someone playing No Mither or perkless or doing a ridiculous archive also apply
Now the killer could do this as well, but it is more likely to happen on the survivor side because it only has to occur one out of the four. So you are far more likely to have games that should be 'void' that are still counted by the system on the survivor side than the killer.
In my opinion, I think BHVR underestimates how many escapes happen because of killer mercy, but the above is an issue.
If we're talking wins, which BHVR doesn't define, I think 1ks are more common than 1es (not including hatch). So if the killer wins, they are more likely to get all of the survivors, but if the survivors win losing one survivor at the end game is pretty common. That's just perception though based on how my games go.
When a killer DC's, the survivor escape. When a survivor DC's, they get a bot, which makes the game still winable. Bots do gens, unhooks and are actually decent at looping the killer.Unless they've changed something because of the bots, an early game DC throws the entire game out of their records.
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I like how this thread became a discussion of deja vu.
I frequently run deja vu, but one thing to point out is that this is one of those perks specifically meant to counter a killer strategy (3 genning). If the devs ever get around to spreading the gens out more, then it would be reasonable to weaken the perk.
As a perk: it saves 5.1 seconds if you do a gen from start to finish. Not bad, but let's look at some other times.
Prove saves ~4.8 seconds on a gen when working with someone else, so its worse than deja without the aura, but can shine end game where you might have 3 people on 1 gen and desperately need to finish the gen.
We'll Make It has a really high chance to save at least 8 seconds if you get a single hook rescue.
Botany knowledge saves 4 seconds and will probably outpace the deja time savings if you heal 2 survivors.
I don't think the time savings are anything outlandish even with the aura reading. To use it you need to be in an area the killer is likely to be patrolling and its purpose is to address a game issue that if 3 gens in close proximity are left up, the game can drag on/stalemate.
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@Nos37 said:
Camping and tunneling can remian in the game as "tactics," but they should not be something the killer can do for free; especially when countering them costs the survivors a perk slot or two.
It costs ZERO perk slots to hang out near the hook or head back to it when the unhook happens. Meanwhile, the survivors have to equip perks like Kindred, Reassurance, Camaraderie, Deliverance, and none of those are a guarantee.
It costs ZERO perk slots to chase, down, and re-hook the same survivor twice in a row. Meanwhile, the survivors have to equip perks like Off the Record, Decisive Strike, Baby Sitter, For the People, and none of those are a guarantee.
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Change the base game mechanic for hooked survivors. Make it much harder for killers to camp/proxy hooked survivors. THEN, add perk(s) that let the killer camp as easily as they can currently. Make camping cost a perk slot.
Change the base game mechanic for recently unhooked survivors. Make it much harder for killers to tunnel the same survivor repeatedly. THEN, add perk(s) that let the killer tunnel survivors as easily as they can currently. Make tunneling cost a perk slot.
Yeah, they shouldn't do this, but as a survivor main who always hates the 'to counter X, just bring Y perk' talking point, I'd laugh so hard at the karma if this happened.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590364#Comment_3590364
Again, you misunderstood.
Gen rush is literally survivors doing nothing but gens. They don't care about teammates, bring the strongest toolboxes and sit on gens with designated Gen perks.
This is not what I meant.
What I meant is that fast gens is generally seen as a "skill issue" of the killer. They should play better. Which to some extend is correct. But that doesn't mean that the killer enjoys these types of matches. One person definitely has no fun here.
Tunneling a survivor out is much more frowned upon because 4 people get to have less fun in a game. Also understandable due to one person having very little time in a match if they are not exceptional in looping. If it's a Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Spirit or Pyramid head it's even worse.
This is what I meant.
Survivors fun > Killers fun.
This mindset is so common because of there are 4 survivors vs one killer. Therefore if the survivors are unhappy, 4 people have no fun in comparison to the one person having no fun if the killers match is too fast.
In my opinion, the community should stand up and acknowledge that both sides fun should be seen equally. Just because there are 4 people doesn't mean that it's OK for the one to have no fun on the expense of the 4.
Tunneling a survivor out is much more frowned upon because 4 people get to have less fun in a game. Also understandable due to one person having very little time in a match if they are not exceptional in looping. If it's a Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Spirit or Pyramid head it's even worse.The thing I don't get is how tunneling killers can have fun. In games where I'm the killer and a survivor is eliminated early, the rest of the game feels like such a chore. There's no tension or excitement, but if the survivors actually go on chases the game can last quite awhile before its finished.
While I've never been part of a gen rush squad, I imagine that there can still be quite a rush associated with trying to do it, especially if you aren't experts at the game and give the killer a chance to snowball.
What I meant is that fast gens is generally seen as a "skill issue" of the killer. They should play better. Which to some extend is correct. But that doesn't mean that the killer enjoys these types of matches. One person definitely has no fun here.Outside the absolute top level of gen rush squads though, a killer does have the ability to get better at the game and fight against gen rushing. I have no control over the skill of other survivors (even if I was in a SWF, that would only be partially true). The game can be decided before some of the survivors have had any meaningful engagement with the killer. That's probably an inevitable draw back of the game's design, but its considerably more annoying.
On a related note, gen rush is not something a killer should encounter until they have some experience at the game and will really only be maximized by SWFs. Any player as a killer, regardless of experience, can tunnel.
Additionally, gen rush squads are at least quick.
Finally, and opinions vary on this, the killer can always play for one kill. I know it doesn't feel the same for every player, but to me if I hit a SWF with high level addons a 1k still feels pretty good. I've never heard anyone talk about a similar feeling from 'well at least we got 3 gens finished'.
In my opinion, the community should stand up and acknowledge that both sides fun should be seen equally. Just because there are 4 people doesn't mean that it's OK for the one to have no fun on the expense of the 4.I don't think any player should have to adjust their play style, I do think any issues with the game that lead to it being 'unfun' (and there are quite a few) should be addressed by BHVR, not by any "rules" that the player should follow. However, given that issues will be addressed one at a time, it makes sense to explain why certain things are bigger issues than others.
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I've no problem with the ftp+buckle up combo.
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590548#Comment_3590548
No, it's not fine to kill perks. At least they need to be viable.
Like there is zero reason to use For the People if you don't have Buckle Up. This just shows For the People needs buff if we are gonna nerf this combo. But you are free to disagree, i am not gonna try to change your mind.
No, it's not fine to kill perks. At least they need to be viable.Conceptually, I wish this was true, but realistically its not. Given the sheer number of perks in the game, and that DbD tries to be balanced around soloq and SWFs, its just not possible.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590431#Comment_3590431
Knowing the layout of a main budding with all its windows is not part of learning maps?
I'm responding to the below quote.
Learn mapsKnow which pallets are already used or not usedAutomatize survivor gameplay in regards to chases ( just run to yellow )
Personally, im fine with the first 2. Sadly i feel like the 3rd is the most common usage out of the 3. Please prove me wrong!You say you are okay with the first two, but I don't see how you draw a difference between 'know which pallets are already used or not' and 'automatize survivor gameplay' because knowing whether a pallet is used or not is the thing that allows a survivor to automatize what they do.
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Xeno's fine. I think some of his addons are a bit too strong, but nothing major. You can loop the xeno, it's harder than other killers and requires changing how you play. God pallets are not nearly as strong, but weaker pallets with shorter loops become more powerful if you have something to circle around. You need to leave loops more frequently, the crawler mode makes it hard to see him, but also allows a jump when running from a loop.
Turrets aren't meant to give the survivor who places them some form of absolute protection. As a survivor place turrets to help your teammates, if being chased head for the turrets. Even if they don't knock the killer out of crawler (and I agree they should be a little better at it) that time they slow the xeno down is critical. Even with the cooldown on destroyed turrets, the survivors will always get more.
If the xeno gets knocked out of crawler and jumps in a tunnel, keep running, you'll get plenty of distance.
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I tell people the same thing I always put on the DbD surveys.
I've been playing video games since the 80s, DbD is simultaneously the best, and worst, multiplayer game I've ever played.