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I wouldn't mind running this build too but juggling chase time to know who to go for after the first Obsession is dead is a bit of a hassle.
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@KateMain86 said:
If you spawned as the Obsession and see the Killer's aura for 3 seconds when a gen gets completed, it's a sign that the Killer has Rancor and you as the Obsession should get as much distance as possible from the Killer towards the end of the game especially when 1-2 gens are left.
I stopped reading your reply here, because you clearly didn't read mine and assumed I didn't know how Rancor worked when this had nothing to do with me not knowing how it works.
I'm not you so naturally I won't know if you are aware of how Rancor works or how to play against it. So sorry that I can't read the mind of some random stranger from the Internet.
I addressed your point about the Obsession switching with Nemesis being in your own words "Unpredictable circumstances" in the latter half of my post as well and pointed out how it's not as unpredictable as you think. Naturally if you're not interested in a conversation and just want to complain irregardless of input then I rest my case.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648656#Comment_3648656
I'd prefer to not become the obsession with exposed and instant kill status effects for dropping a pallet. There are too many random chance encounters in this game, and so many of them favor the killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648655#Comment_3648655
Rancor is in fact RNG. The obsession is chosen at random in every match unless you're using something that makes you the obsession. The randomness of it all is dropping a pallet in a time when it should mean the most and you get insanely punished for it. There is nothing fair or balanced about that.
If you spawned as the Obsession and see the Killer's aura for 3 seconds when a gen gets completed, it's a sign that the Killer has Rancor and you as the Obsession should get as much distance as possible from the Killer towards the end of the game especially when 1-2 gens are left. If the Killer brings Rancor, they tend to not hook you much in the early and mid game. Jump into a locker before the last gen pop and count to 3 before leaving the locker and Stealth move to another location. The Killer will get the Notification for the general area you are but won't see your aura if you were in a locker/have Distortion.
As for Obsession switching, on the Killer's end, there are four ways for the Obsession to switch
Game Afoot: The Survivor with the longest chase time becomes the Obsession when they are hit. If you see a non Obsession become the Obsession after getting hit at the start of the game, this perk is in play. The Obsession effect only applies after you get hit so even if the previous Obsession died in endgame and you got chased and hit immediately, the exposed effect won't apply until after the Obsession Switch happens.
Furtive Chase: Obsession changes over when a non Obsession rescues the Obsession.
Friends Til The End: Obsession switches over to a random Survivor when the current Obsession gets hooked.
Nemesis: Blinding or Stunning the Killer transfer the Obsession Status. If you notice the Obsession status switch during the game with no injury or hook/unhook/DS/FTP, it means the Killer has Nemesis. This Obsession Switch can be countered by predropping and not blinding the Killer.
Even as a solo player, it is pretty easy to tell if the Killer has an Obsession switching perk from the HUD alone. Once you know what strategy the Killer is utilizing, it makes it easier to prepare and outplay them. Perhaps before complaining excessively, you could apply the information I've given you to use and see how it works first? Or is that too much of a hurdle?
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After looking at two content creators play Sadako without focusing heavily on Condemned and taking the rework of Iri tape into account, I am beginning to think devs are trying to push players to play Sadako as a high map mobility hit and run Killer especially with Iri Video Tape and Bloody Fingernails together.
With the basekit buff to the Post Projection movement speed, Sadako can cover a lot of distance in a very short period of time after teleporting. For Sadako players who know which direction to path after coming out of the television, Survivors don't have a lot of time to make it to a pallet or vault before getting hit if they are near a television. Keep up enough of such hits and they eventually transition into downs.
This strategy of course has an rng aspect of being map dependant. For maps with lots of clutter/multiple floors, the televisions may spawn very far away from the gens/spawn below a gen on the 2nd floor.
I might try this playstyle for a bit instead of making Condemned the main focus of the build
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Nemesis + Rancor is rng now?
You would have a better argument if it was Game Afoot/Friends til the End + Rancor
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If the lunar new year did happen this year, more people would be playing. However since the only thing people got was Lights Out, people just decided to take a break.
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While OP's reason for leaving DBD is somewhat exaggerated, he does point out that devs have this fixation with introducing/buffing perks to be strong and become surprised when the majority of the population uses said perks constantly and nerfs said perks. This leads to most people either using the next best perks or whatever new strong perks was introduced or buffed in the latest patch.
It's an endless cycle.
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I think Gen Efficient is a better term than tunneling.
Gen rushing would obviously refer to players who bring BNP + strong toolboxes with gen progression perks.
Being Gen efficient would just refer to players who don't waste a lot of time crouching in corners, don't cleanse totems unless needed, know where gens will roughly spawn and will just hold M1 on gens if they know someone else is being chased.
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Maybe this was the reason why STBFl went unchanged for so many years.
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I don't understand your post, are you saying Huntress with STBFL is overpowered?
As for the other 4 Killers, since they have an instant down ability, chances are they won't be getting a lot of STBFL stacks as well if they are using said ability. The only justification would be for Ghostface and maybe Myers/Leatherface to some extent.
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Background player to 400%
You might as well have the perk give Survivors the ability to blink like Nurse
Your justification for nerfing Killer perks is literally (It's too strong.) Any stats on that?
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Perhaps these players don't play Killer that much to begin with?
I can tell as a Survivor when a Killer I play is using a certain addon but I can't even remember the names or effects of the less popular Survivor perks. If the bulk of new players mostly play Survivor and hardly touch Killer, it makes sense for them to not know the specifics of every Killer's power let alone one that just got 2 remakes within a year
I did a few 1v1s against a 2k hour player recently as Sadako and he commented that the passive phasing also threw him off because he didn't have much experience looping Sadako and still thought tapes were destroyed upon hit.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647966#Comment_3647966
I think it can be done, but not within the framework BHVR has picked. The 'bar builds until self-unhook' thing just won't do anything.
If you want the killer to stop camping, make the anti-camp disable upon them doing something else.
My idea was to slow the hook timer based on how many survivors are on gens, but make the effect scale exponentially. So if all other survivors are on gens, the timer barely progresses, but if the killer forces even one survivor off a gen, the pressure is back with survivors.
For your suggestion to work, the base time required to reach second hook stage/be sacrificed would have to be reduced to make up for the slowdown when Survivor are on gens. Otherwise even when the Killer leaves the hook and chases one Survivor off the gen, the other two Survivors will be encouraged to choose "gens over friends" instead of saving their hooked teammate asap while the Killer is chasing another Survivor.
Using doing gens as a measure to slow down hook states may also backfire if the Killer uses the Grim Embrace DMS combo to push Survivors off gens. Having this hook state slowdown base kit also means the devs will have a harder time if they want to introduce more gen block perks in the future.
I think having something like a basekit Monstrous Shrine may have the potential to encourage more Killers to leave the hook and the base hook state duration could be increased at the same time as long as the devs can fix the interaction to work between floors (Game, Midwich)
Obviously this won't really impact Nurse players but punishing the rest of the Killer roster just to rein in one Killer doesn't really make sense
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Afc being buffed to counter proxy camp would lead to more issues like small maps/floors, non mobile Killers struggling due to their design making them not viable for moving across the map.
Unless BHVR comes up with some basekit for non mobile killers to get across the map faster, proxy camping can't be punished.
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Just held a 3 gen on Dead Dawg as Trapper. The map spawned 4 gens near the gallows with basement in shack. The Survivors tried to finish the gallows gen initially but a few Pain Reso and Pop kicks convinced them to do the other gens.
11 hooks + 4k at 1 gen left. Only my gallows gen got entity blocked.
I guess the 3 gen system is working perfectly well huh
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I think Sadako's bugged version of ring drawing (Spread Condemned when hooked + healing) should be the iri or purple add on ngl. Iri video tape effect is too weak to justify the iri status.
I was able to get a few games with Sadako and I'm still trying to figure out the optimal build on her. Telephone addon doesn't seem to be doing much in terms of mindgames around pallets. Locked Condemned cap isn't threatening enough unless I tunnel said Survivor so they don't have time to do tapes but I might as well use Pinhead with Original Pain if I wanted to tunnel off hook.
The previous Condemned build that I ran (Nemesis/Game Afoot, PWYF, Corrupt, Deadlock) probably won't be as effective as before since tapes can't be destroyed upon hit. I still think some she needs a bit more buffs like removing tv auras from Survivor/2 second insert time/Debuffs from holding the tape to hit the sweet spot.
I'll keep experimenting tho. It's a shame Sadako is terrible at pipping given how Condemn is designed to bypass hook stages
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I haven't tested it yet but is Sadako putting away chases quicker with the Telephone addon now given that the Hindered debuff is akin to stepping on Freddy's blood pools?
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From the way I see it, the next time people claim that Killers can afford to play for hooks and not Kills, you can quote this game in reference. If you aren't stacking the odds in your advantage, (Great addons, good Killer, Killer sided map etc), you have to employ some form of strategy to win (Tunneling, proxy camping a Surv within 3 gen, Macro play etc)
Blindly chasing anyone you see or going out of your way to 2 hook everyone isn't a good strategy in general, it only works if the map isn't to your disadvantage and you end chases quickly.
Could you perhaps share the build/Killer you were running? Even without the 3 gen system, it is still not an easy task to hold a 3 gen against 4 Survivors without heavy regression perks.
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I feel like people are tackling this game mode with a Core DBD mindset and applying Core DBD “rules” to it leading to overwhelming negative feedback.
I hope that the devs don’t end up shelving or delaying their plans for other game modes solely based on how Lights Out was received.
Lights Out would have been a great game mode in another time where the community was less optimized and experienced perhaps.
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The more basekit/dumbing down of mechanics/playstyle restrictions the game puts out, the less expression of Skill there will be for both sides.
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@pseudechis said:
It was always gonna be a love/hate scenario.
I'm firmly in the love camp on this one lights out is great. I hope it stays.
Or better yet I hope it gets integrated into the base game so that we start off in darkness and matches get progressively lighter as the game progresses. Its dead by daylight after all.
While integrating this into core dbd may see some opposition, I think having the lights gradually turn on as gens get completed would be a good idea. Something like lights turn on when 3 gens are done, TR comes back at 4 gens completed etc.
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Distortion just needs to change recharging of tokens to be within chase/altruistic/objective actions instead of just crouching within tr. This would encourage Distortion Survivors to interact with the Killer, help fellow Survivors or do Objectives in the match. For the Survivor who uses Stealth in their gameplay but isn’t afraid of going for a save or do a gen, they wouldn’t be affected. For the lone wolves who just want to crouch all game and wait for hatch, this will dissuade them from relying on said gameplay as a crutch.
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If DBD was a party game, Lights out would probably be a good reference. No items and perks reduces the learning curve significantly so it’s easier to get into apart from a few tweaks
If people play a horror party game, jumpscares are probably the reason for playing it. In fact if Survivor also had Killer POV in this version, it would be a really fun experience
Some people may not admit it but core dbd has competitive elements to it (Bringing certain items/perks/add ons grants an advantage) If people play Lights Out with the same mindset as playing Core DBD, they will get frustrated. Given that the game mode is only up for a week, it’s also a good chance to go back to basics for regular players. Survivor players used to having WOO and holding W the moment they hear a TR may learn maps better and learn to make the most of the tiles they can see in the immediate distance. Killer players used to stacking regression or aura perks will have to rely on their eyes and ears to find Survivors.
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I still think the Condemned lock in limit could be raised up to a more threatening number like 4/5. For Condemned to still remain as a threat and for hooking to be encouraged, Survivors have to start worrying about their Condemned state after the first hook and not the second. That would be a nice compromise between Condemn Mori a Survivor with 0 hook states depleted and a Survivor on Death hook.
It’s also interesting to note that Manifestation got the movement speed buff . On short loops especially with the Telephone addon equipped, Sadako could catch up to Survivors for that hit pretty easily. This is a nice buff to her Chase potential.
With that being said, her addons still need looking at and there needs to be some demerit to holding tapes. The proposed changes are a step in the right direction and she needs just a bit more.
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Having the 8 regression events per gen be reset with every hook would go a long way in having the 3 gen system not affect normal gameplay.
The obnoxious 3 gen playstyle that people complain about usually have one thing in common: A lack of hooks. If the Killer is hooking Survivors, they are progressing the game and putting Survivors closer to death.
I would even argue the cap of 8 regression events could be lowered to 6 as long as they reset with every hook. That would actually target Killers who just injure and kick gens all day. Players who run multiple gen regression perks would be incentivized to hook Survivors rather than leave them slugged.
This simple fix would resolve all the complaints of gen kick/regression perks hitting the cap even though the players using said perks were not enforcing a 3 gen 1 hour scenario.
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Hexes for the most part are weak and totem spawns are terrible. You would rather nerf people running totem builds and push them to running the same gen slowdown build that everyone runs now just because you couldn’t cleanse a hex totem?
Wild times we live in
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Michael Myers is probably one of the last remaining vestiges of old DBD where his power level ranges from a slow old man relying on jump scares on indoor maps to being able to take someone out of the game at any moment without any prior warning or notification. Tombstone piece is probably one of the few moments that can still make the Survivors have an “Oh #########” revelation in this age of dbd where lots of things are pretty predictable.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642696#Comment_3642696
I believe the only players Freddy actually punishes are the ones who completely disregard his counterplay, and even then it doesn't help him much.
A survivor paying no mind to Dream Pallets might grant you one hit or two, but in the grand scheme of things you still have situations in the trial where you play without a power, so it is kinda pointless.
I play Pallet Freddy exclusively and the difference in matches is night and day.
A few days ago, I played a match on Toba landing and getting free hits was so difficult because the Survivors knew the map, took alarm clocks regularly and paid attention to the surroundings, I only got my first down after 3 gens popped and ended the match with 6 hooks and no kills
Yesterday, I got fractured cowshed and managed to get 3 free hits at the start of the game followed by a down after 1 gen was done. I ended the game with 10 hooks, 4 Kills and 1 gen left.
For people who don’t really know Freddy or are new, what I’ve noticed is they start walking around slowly looking about aimlessly when they hear my Lullaby while I walk up to them and hit them for free while Survivors who do pay attention identify where I am and begin holding W even before I even close the distance.
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Might as well kill switch all the other Killers except for Trapper but take away the traps.
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I just tunnel and camp if needed.
If people are complaining about a M1 Killer that loses his power as the game progress tunneling, that’s a skill issue on them.
Freddy only punishes people who aren’t good with pseudo stealth. Anyone who pays attention while doing gens won’t even give him free hits
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I think leaning into her Condemned only playstyle will probably be much harder as compared to the previous version of choosing one Obsession target to focus Condemned on, deny them tapes when they do pick then up along with gaining PWYF stacks by not committing to a down until they are fully Condemned.
Going for the regular hooks with slowdown/chase perks and catching Survivors off guard while they do their tape run is probably how devs intend for her to be played similar to Pig
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Not sure if anyone can recall but the first iteration of Sadako also had the same “Jack of all trades, Master of none” design vibe. Applying Condemned via teleports being restricted by the 16m radius and horrendous tv cooldowns. Killer was designed to have Stealth aspects but has a Lullaby in Stealth mode. This contradiction in design combined with a lack of tv interaction from Survivors gave birth to the Rickety Pinwheel + walk around Manifested Sadako build which actually worked on indoor maps. While the Condemn concept + Sadako design was ambitious, someone or some people had misgivings about the Survivors having a “difficult time” which led to all these restrictions on Sadako’s basekit.
I am getting the same vibe from the nerfs added on to her current live version. Once again concerns from probably the same someone or some people were voiced about Survivors possibly being locked at high Condemned stacks after being hooked once and the Condemn “spam” of 3-4 Condemn stacks when all tvs are powered on if Sadako spammed teleport once her power instantly based on her PTB design. This reduces her back to the Jack of all Trades, Master of None version like her first iteration.
I have no idea why BHVR has so much interest in Sadako recently (Her first rework came with Nicholas Cage and her second rework is released alongside Alan Wake) but I hope the devs can make their final decent change with Sadako and stick to it for good.
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A point could be made about Fog whisperers getting “easier” games especially on Killer.
Killer gameplay is much more entertaining to watch since Survivor gameplay has downtime (Doing gens, being on the hook, waiting in lobby after being sacrificed). Given that the Killers are the unique characters in the game and not the million outfits of Feng Min, it makes sense to promote Killers and showing Fog whisperers being constantly decimated on the “power” role in the game is probably not a good way to market the game.
Showcasing how “easy” Killer gameplay is also encourages players to take up the Killer role. This helps to pad out the Killer population numbers.
Fog Whisperers may not even be aware that they are more likely to get baby opponents in their queues. The only people who can confirm this is BHVR and they don’t benefit from confirming or denying it so the likelihood of it happening in’t very high
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Base gen regression is terrible.
Survivors just don’t know this. It’s not the end of the world if a gen regresses for a few seconds more.
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10-12 hooks without tunneling is definitely viable if the Killer is much more skilled than the Survivors. The question is whether there are enough Killers and Survivors to fit into this matchmaking criteria.
The answer is no currently so this utopian dream of a tunnel free dbd won’t come to fruition.
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Adrenaline needs a bit of tweaking, like activating after being unhooked shouldn’t be a thing.
If the only change to mangled devs can think of is a timer, then it’s going to be a disappointment. Incentivizing heals was supposed to be the “slowdown” after gutting most of the regression perks + limiting regression events disincentivizes stacking 4 regression perks.
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Pain res + DMS combo = let go of gen before hook occurw
GE + DMS combo = let go of gen before hook and wait a few seconds for the first 3 fresh hooks. Thanks to AFC, the Killer will leave the hook ASAP.
Once people across the board learn this, it won’t be that oppressive. People anticipating such plays may even opt to heal/ do totems during this “downtime” just to be efficient.
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Unless you are running addons that give you access to red puke easily, basic M1 mechanics will come into play for Plague. Survivors probably won’t cleanse unless chases are ending quickly while Broken. Plaything + Penti is one way of encouraging Survivors to cleanse. If Survivors remain broken and the map favors stealth play, it’s an easy down with Plaything active.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637294#Comment_3637294
"Who is saying you need to get everyone on death hook or else its tunneling? Its a long thread and maybe I missed it, but you seem to have a very extreme definition of tunneling."
Survivors have. The ones on my team, the ones when I play killer, the ones I've talked to over voice, the ones online. Everywhere I've been I've seen these type of complaints, and they're not a small amount, it's common enough. Again, in my experience. It's not explicitly "get everyone to death hook", but its close enough.
I don't care if the killer tunnels when I play survivor. So I'm going off what others define as "the tunneling problem", since I'm not the one with the issue.
As for the 10-12 hooks thing, that has been asserted as something the killer can and should aim to do in every match in this thread. Not sure if you disagree with that or not.
Tunneling is used so loosely these days half the time people are arguing about different stuff.
I was in a Lobby where a Blight hooked Survivor A and went after Survivor B who was lurking near the hook. I unhooked A and A proceeded to run to the other corner of the map without healing (I had empathy).
The Blight downs and hooks B quickly, sees A at the other side of the map thanks to bbq and goes after him (I was hiding near hooked B to get the save and Survivor D had distortion). A ends up dead and accuses the Blight of tunneling in the endgame chat.
From A’s perspective, they got unhooked, ran to the other side of the map and the Blight comes after them before they even finished healing so they would feel like they were tunneled, however from my perspective, the Blight had downed and hooked someone and just went for the next target they saw on the map.
At this point, people probably have their own specific idea of what tunneling is and will call foul when someone doesn’t play by their definition of tunneling. I’ve had to re-down a freshly unhooked Survivor lurking about for a pallet save and get accused of being a sweaty tunneler because I have eyes and know what they were planning.
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Feels like the general reason for leaving depips in the game is so that players who play till iri 1 would have to play more games overall be it Killer or Survivor which would keep queue times healthy
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I started out as a Pinhead main (Grinded ranks to iri one for most games before 6.10 hit), shifted to Sadako and Freddy for a bit then finally Wraith when healing was nerfed.
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For slugs during early game, it’s a game design issue. Picking up and hooking a Survivor takes too long unless the downed Survivor is next to a hook. Leaving a slug creates pseudo pressure because one Survivor has to go for the pickup or the slugged Survivor uses their Unbreakable etc.
Survivors will tend to commit to the gen after they see someone go down due to the assumption that said Survivor will get hooked. That gives the Killer a short window of time to interrupt another Survivor doing gens.
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The 3 gen “solution” already has the base ability to deny a Killer from kicking a gen twice let alone 8 times and Devs didn’t even acknowledge this.
Gen kick perks are going to see a decrease in pick rate.
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Run out of regression perks to complain about so the next is endgame perks?
The full time delay from Remember Me + NWO is less than Deadlock blocking 4 gens. NWO needs 4 unique hooks for the full duration, Remember Me requires hitting the Obsession 4 times + they cannot be touching the gates just to get the full time delay.
Since the Killer used two perk slots for this combo, that’s two less slots for early/mid game perks like Corrupt, Deadlock, Pain Res, Pop etc.
If your team only had 1/2 people left by the time the gates were powered, then your team probably wouldn’t have completed all 5 gens even if the Killer didnt bring endgame perks and brought slowdown perks
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Swf sided.
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MMR was made lax because there weren’t enough Killer players at every “bracket” at that point in time. Whether there are sufficient Killer players now remains to be seen.
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While I’m not optimistic that the upcoming changes will not be a disappointment, I would say to withhold judgement till they announce the next batch of changes. If the changes still share the same pattern of “No one asked for this change, why did you do this”, then it’s clear the devs don’t really care about PTB feedback and spending time giving said feedback to them is clearly a waste of time.
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Them not mentioning anything in the patch notes means they couldn’t fix it in time for this update.
I would refrain from using gen kick perks until it gets fixed.
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Not sure if people are aware but this dms + ge combo only works for the first 3 fresh hooks. People act like all gens are blocked for 30 seconds in these 3 instances when Survivors have to be working on gens the moment the Killer leaves the hook and GE “kicks” them off the gen.
Just like how the counterplay to Pain res + DMS is let go for the gen before a Survivor gets hooked, the counter to this is let go of the gen and wait a few seconds for the gen to be autoblocked by GE. This combo will work only the first time against anyone who knows the counterplay.
While it might need some tweaking, I wouldn’t call it “brain dead”
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I’m beginning to wonder if the dev team even used the PTB feedback when making a decision about the two nerfs.
The liner about noticing some Killer players teleporting to the “wrong” tv to stack up more Condemned stacks on a Survivor gives the vibe of the devs watching a few content creator videos which utilized this strategy or saw a few Survivors get hooked while fully condemned, panicked and started working on the nerfs.
Assuming that the Live release changes had to be pushed early due to console certification and tweaking teleports to not Condemn if the power button is on cooldown would take more effort than changing a few numbers which was the majority of the PTB feedback, devs wouls have had to start working on the nerfs fairly early.