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@BassGuitarRox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671793#Comment_3671793
DBD used to have the stance that camping was a recognised strategy way back when. It was good when they did backtrack on it and introduced basekit Borrowed Time.
I do live in the hope that they will go back and take stock of the tunneling issue and find an effective way to tackle it. It would be good if there were some added categories to the post-match reporting system ‘tunnelling’ etc even if it wasn’t used for anything other than metrics. The game must know the killers that choose to consistently tunnel.
i’d love for the matchmaking to work like GTA, if you play in a detrimental way, you get put in the same sandbox with other detrimental players and you can ruin the game for each other and leave everyone else to enjoy the game.That is if tunneling does not play a major part in the kill rates. If tunneling leads to a significant drop in kill rates, something else will have to be done to pull it up again.
Buff Killers to be more oppressive in chase/reduce Survivor Counterplay? Remove resources on maps to make them more Killer sided? Introduce or buff more game stalling perks? Those would become the next thing to complain about after tunneling and slugging gets restricted.
An additional side effect of a reduction in Kill rates is a decrease in people who play Killer. This would lead to matchmaking becoming less strict cue more complaints of imbalanced matchups and even cosmetic sales would be slightly affected.Devs have to consider all the possible backlog of additional work that would surface solely from "fixing tunneling" and look at their schedule and decide when to slot it in. Given their track record, it would be far easier and more profitable to just introduce more anti tunnel Survivor perks rather than a basekit overhaul that people are advocating for.
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They just need bloodpools in frenzy
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@Pulsar said:
It definitely shouldn't wake you up against Freddy.
It probably could've had the health on hook removed; didn't make sense cuz of BT making it two health states anyway, but whatever.
The speed boost being nerfed shows me this is more about making a gesture than actually having issues with how the perk is performing.
I was not unaware that the wake up portion of Adrenaline was so vital and crucial against an oppressive Killer such as Freddy. That nerf was probably the least of everyone's concerns.
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The strength of exhaustion perks are amplified on certain maps. Haddonfield/Eyrie/GOJ/Ormond with Balanced Landing, Sprint Burst on hold W maps etc.
There isn't much counterplay especially as a M1 Killer if a Survivor holds W to a double storey building with Balanced Landing ready. Maps are the issue and exhaustion perks make it easier to take advantage of maps.
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3.0 condemned pressure is a nice balance between 1.0 and 2.0. I don't think passive condemned should make a return and her yellow and purple addons need an addon pass. The lack of viable addons is what makes her feel restricted. Having addons that give various debuffs to Survivors who hold tapes would encourage them not to hold on to tapes indefinitely.
On the topic of basekit buffs, I think making current ring drawing basekit and the addon increasing the amount of Condemned stacks to other Survivors from 1 to 1.5/2 when a Survivor holding a tape is hooked would introduce more pressure on a macro level. This would help offset the relatively ease Survivors can find a tv and turn their tapes in.The previous iteration of Ring Drawing giving one Condemned stack when healing a Survivor from injured to full could also make a return via another addon.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704499#Comment_3704499
Played a ton of games recently with Knockout, Infectious, Coulrophobia, and Thana on Pinhead.
Gotta be honest… some of the most chill games of DBD I've played in a while.
Didn't have to worry about blind saves, pallet saves, Dead Hard, Decisive Strike, or Off the Record.
I can't imagine the Survivors were loving it—between the box, thana, and the time I was saving by not hooking anyone, survivors didn't have time to do anything other than ping pong between downd teammates.But as far as universally viable builds that hard counter BGP, Flashlights, and Flashbangs…10 out of 10 build imo
I've tried something similar (Knockout, Infectious, Sloppy and Surge) on Pinhead and Sadako and have gotten decent results. I feel that on Killers with Secondary Objectives built in, the macro decision skill of the Survivors really gets tested.
On M1 Killers without secondary objectives like Trapper, Doctor, Wraith etc and if the Survivor team has good comms, map or brought anti slug perks (Boon exponential, wglf, unbreakable etc) The game outcome can become a 50/50 but I just use those opportunities to practice my chasing even if I lose.
Glad that you're having fun with the strat too! -
If picking up becomes so much of an issue in games, people will eventually be incentivized to slug more or the at the very least only hook when it's clear that the BGP Survivor is busy elsewhere. Not saying it's the Survivors' fault for this but the devs are encouraging the shift in mindset about hooking if they think BGP is fine.
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The AI going all wonky when the Survivor drops a pallet while being chased by the Guard is pretty silly ngl.
Even fixing just that would make him feel better to play.
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I've done this build before, it works pretty well in maps with LOS blockers.
You could change the iri box to the Engineer's fang and change out Sloppy for Pentimento/Thana or something to help with chase.
If you're pretty good with your chains, Survivors will dread being near you since you can keep them constantly injured without m1 required.The iri box doesn't see much value because you're pretty much picking up the box constantly. You might even run into one Survivor going for the box at the same time as you without Iri box.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703650#Comment_3703650
You're fully missing the point of the thread.
The thread is asking: What is my incentive to stay in the game against a hook camper or tunneller?
Your answer: The killer should tunnel.
That's not an answer. And it's not engaging with what is and has been a legitimate problem. You're too obsessed with retaining the ability to tunnel to consider the other perspective.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703653#Comment_3703653
None of that is going to stop the tunnelling though, is it?
OP didn't mention in their first post that the Killer targeted the unhooked Survivor immediately after teleporting though? The ending sentence about OP dying on hook gives off the impression that OP went down after the teleport and decided to give up on hook.
Having a conversation about tunneling/camping is fine but the Singularity scenario is not a very good example as it borders more on OP not being familiar with Singularity mechanics or deciding to make a risky play despite knowing the mechanics and the Killer capitalizing on it. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703632#Comment_3703632
And would've denied the unhook, while giving the singularity time to walk back to hook. Lose-lose scenario.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703640#Comment_3703640
What should be done about game one?
Nerf tunnelling. If the killer has no incentive to tunnel, they'd opt to hook the downed survivor instead of sprinting back to hook to tunnel and/or deny unhook.
The killer played the game to win and it's framed as some kind of injustice
No, what's being framed as an injustice is that this survivor player is saying 'I don't see a reason to continue playing if killers do everything in their power to diminish gameplay'. It's the killers once again getting their knickers in a twist over someone saying 'tunnelling/camping is bad for gameplay'.
I assume you are referring to the scenario if OP tried to hide from the camera to prevent Slipstream teleport. When Singularity "wakes up" from using a biopod located near a hooked Survivor, the transition time takes 5 seconds which means OP has ample time to perform the unhook and start moving away. At that point, it's not much different from Trapper seeing an unhook and walking back to it. If OP wanted to demonstrate how unfair camping was, Singularity isn't the Killer to pick given the basekit anticamp limitations on the power.
Once again, since OP didn't go into details, I would just assume the Killer was far enough from the hooked Survivor to justify using the biopod instead of walking back to hook.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703502#Comment_3703502
Game 1 is a survivor going for an unhook while the killer is chasing someone else. This is now considered a 'massive misplay'.
Killers are just getting worse, aren't they?
It's not uncommon for Singularity players to switch to cam mode after downing a Survivor so that they can get off an infection for later on.
Since OP didn't go into detail, my guess is that as lockon via biopod takes much longer to charge up when near a hooked Survivor, OP was probably already infected when going for the rescue. That means OP had ample warning that he was being locked on. Either finding cover or bringing an EMP would have denied Singularity from teleporting. That's the "misplay" that was being referred to.
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They should have kept Ultimate weapon as it is.
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Thana encouraged hits on multiple players (Is hit and run not healthy gameplay?) and provided slowdown via healing (Not another gen regression perk).
If people wanted variety in Killer builds and spreading of pressure, reverting Thana would be an incentive to do so
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Isn't it just due to multiple functions tied to a certain button? Like if the grab Survivor off a gen/totem/exiting a locker was bounded to a different key like shift or ctrl for example, the Killer could better decide whether they wanted to use a basic attack or grab. It has the same vibes of CJ tech or getting into a locker by accident instead of vaulting the window nearby because the devs doesn't want to allow players to customize key mappings for a few interactions in the game. It's just one of the old DBD design elements that still somehow exists today despite most things being streamlined and dumbed down.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702261#Comment_3702261
If the devs accept the stupid humping, they can just as well say in the adverts:
"It is common in our game, that your character will be sexually assaulted by other characters, but that's OK. Just dont take it too seriously."
How are people ok with this???
I'm not sure what you're trying to convey to me. Are you saying the devs should make humping a bannable offense? OP's post didn't mention humping and I was thinking of "toxic" expressions like t bagging, hitting on hook and nodding when I typed up my post.
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I don't see how the Killer "camped and tunneled" in both of OP's scenarios. The first Scenario is literally basic macroplay from a Killer that requires macroplay to excel. The Killer would have been prevented from returning to the hook if OP had an EMP to either remove their infection or disable the pod near the hook.
The second is OP being forced to make a risky play because two players went down within the same vicinity. I would argue the Killer was already making a risky play by hooking the second downed Survivor.
I'm sure there are better scenarios to share about tunneling and camping but this ain't it OP. Both you and your teammates could have played better, and the Killer just capitalized off the mistakes your team made.
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Everyone has a different definition of ingame toxicity. If devs define what toxicity is and punish people accordingly, people will start asking for more things to be added to the toxic list.
It's a never ending game of catchup. Not having an accessible replay system doesn't help either.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701626#Comment_3701626
No hooks before everyone is on the ground. The Surge + Nurse's Calling information combined with a general idea of where survivors are usually allows you to stay in chase constanty.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701659#Comment_3701659
I would think so too but I've been playing against a lot of survivors that tried to counter the build with Unbreakable. It never worked. Because a full reset takes so much time that it can never happen. You stay in chase the entire time, regress the gens so they can't rush through and Nurse's Calling + Sloppy allows you to interrupt their heals.
You play like a hit and run killer. Only, every time you hit someone, they go down and you slug them.
How has it worked for you on large or open maps such as Eyrie or Borgo?
I also noticed that if you have Survivors hovering around for flashlight/Sabo saves, surge won't detect them but they will know where the downed Survivor is due to being within 16m. All they would have to do is wait for you to leave before healing downed Survivor which would minimize the impact of Knockout. -
I was actually considering testing Knock Out after the next patch where depip gets removed.
So your strategy is to down someone, either use the information from surge to find another Survivor or hang around the downed Survivor and wait for another Survivor to come for a pickup?Do you hook anyone before all 4 Survivors are slugged?
I run a slugging build on Trapper STBFL, Infectious, Surge and Deadlock/Corrupt but I will still hook occasionally on the same Survivor so I'm still making progress to getting someone out of the game, is that what you are doing too?
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It is carried by BGP. The sound bug doesn't help too but sound is always broken in some way in this game.
I've also had a few occasions where I was looking up when flashbang was dropped and still got blinded, not sure what the counter is if looking up doesn't help too.
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I wouldn't say Lightborn has to be mandatory but the existence of Background Player does encourage "unwinnable scenarios" like pallet save, going down in an open area for easy flashlight saves etc. It's just like how Call of Brine+ Overcharge/SM encouraged the gen kick gen protector playstyle.
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It hits the next available gen with progress that isn't blocked. In the rare occasion that there are no gens with progress on them, you keep the token
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Her purple and yellow addons are pretty useless in this current iteration
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Devs want both the casual and competitive audience since selling cosmetics and dlcs to more people is always better. That comes at the cost of not fully catering to both groups when it comes to game balance.
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I recall one game down to 2 man at 2 gens where a Claudette would sabo a hook and slow walk away to avoid crows until I found the other Survivor and hooked them. Said Claudette waited for the hatch and escaped with 0 hook states
Not sure how to feel about that but the game time definitely got elongated because of the Claudette
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Kudos to Otz
The Unknown is probably the first Killer in a while that hasn't seen mass complaints about how weak or oppressive the Killer is upon release.
On the topic of winstreaks, I think it's fine as a showcase of a Killer's potential especially in the hands of veteran players. Who's to say the decision for Blight and Nurse nerfs wasn't influenced by the high winstreaks from some streamers? If anything these winstreaks serve as an alternative source of data to the devs apart from their spreadsheets.
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Feels like it's a lose lose situation when discussing SM with someone who dislikes them. If I talk about my SM games mostly consisting of 3-4 man escapes, people will chalk it up to me being bad at the game which is fine. If I talk about the few games where I got a 3k/4k, people will use that as basis that SM is strong against the average casual solo queue survivors.
I'm also getting similar vibes from this thread too.
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Kind of on the fence about this although I've always thought that regressing gates was the only thing stopping Endgame builds from being meta
If gates regressed, we might actually see more people running endgame perks which is definitely a good thing since the current Killer meta is literally gen slowdown perks.
On the other hand, perks like Remember Me might become too oppressive which would encourage Survivors to open gates before rescuing other hooked Survivors, which opens up the potential of a BloodWarden play.
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@SirXenomorph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697909#Comment_3697909
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697834#Comment_3697834
Imagine play with most dirty playstyles only cause you are so bad as a killer and face real strong survivors.
It does not even come anyone of you in mind that maybe the issue is not the survivors here but you. I mean seriously all you do is complain how unfair the game is to you so you start to play even more unfair to everyone till they change the game to your advantage? Do you guys really not get how ultimative selfish that thinking is?
I am a survivor main and sure I have my issues in the game too, and I would not even say that I am a real strong survivor. And I also complain yea but I complain about dirty tactics used by killers who just refuse to learn to play good. Only cause this give you easy kills makes it not good. And like I mentioned before. All you killers who play with dirty playstyles and get their 4K will complain as soon as they face the real pro survs. Since the time before they reached high rank MMR they only faced normal players who want just to have fun. So if you ask me you killers who always complain how hard it is in high MMR deserve exactly that. You deserved being flashed to death, you deserved being background played. You deserve all that since you came in that high MMR only cause you played dirty in the first place, or refused to actually train to get any better.
I have no mercy with you. And since killers like you came with the Idea of slugging only cause he is not good? While the survivor who flash him all the time FOR SURE trained it so hard that he will manage to do it. So your solution is become dirty and unfair because someone actually trained a certain playstyle which is a synergy (Something killers LOVE to smash around with). Did you guys even listen to yourself? That is the biggest issue you think it is excusable to become toxic and digsuting only you now face real strong survivor who spend so much time in become that good. Instead of try to think to do the same AND LEARN TO BECOME GOOD! No just become more toxic, disgusting and bad yea that is the most logical solution to that issue.
You should really rethink your own views. It is no wonder why all the killers think the game has to care only for them cause they all want a game with no real effort to bring in. For real it would be no wonder if even when the game will be like all 4 survivors are already on hook right from start you will still complain about it. Get you things together AND LEARN TO BECOME GOOD WITHOUT DEVS HAVE TO CHANGE EVERYTHING FOR YOU!
Not sure why you got so triggered to go on a huge rant but the gameplay pattern in DBD is not chase > hook and repeat, sometimes a slug can turn the pressure over to the Killer's favor, knowing when to do so is actually part of Killer macroplay.If I down a Survivor in the open and I know someone else is lurking about with a flashlight, I'm not obligated to pick up the downed Survivor. Similarly if a Survivor leads me away from the gens and comp corner, I'm not obliged to hook them either and lose a gen as well.
To you, your ideal of a "good killer" is someone who plays with certain self imposed rules, if you meet players like that, good for you. I'm not obliged to play by your rulebook. The devs has a set of rules and I play by that because I agreed to those rules when I loaded in a lobby, not rules another player made up. I don't have to prove that I'm a "good killer" to you nor do I see any benefit in doing so.Instead of directing your anger at other players, perhaps you should channel your energy to the devs. They are the game masters and have the power to effect change, if they share the view that slugging is "unhealthy", they can make it a bannable offense and I will gladly oblige by their rules.
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A semi slug playstyle is starting to look more and more viable against Background Player apart from running Lightborn.
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Having it at basekit would not encourage Killers to run aura perks more often and push them to use other perk types like slowdown perks. Then people will start complaining that Killers only run slowdown perks and wonder aloud why Killers don't like running aura perks.
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I think Devs won't update Sadako again anytime soon, they've gone back and forth on her design and still can't get it right. At this point it's easier to just assume they've shifted their attention to other reworks or new content.
The Sadako 2.0 patch always felt more like the devs humoring Nicholas Cage (If he really loves Sadako) than them looking at Sadako's stats and deciding she needed a buff. -
Map offerings should either remove the chances of going to a certain realm or be deleted.
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Judging from the reddit comments, it seems like you didn't get much sympathy there as well.
What are you searching for OP? Validation that Billy should be nerfed? Survivors should get some basekit for slugging?
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Was there some new stats to dethrone Swf?
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It's too late for devs to make MMR visible to the general population especially with how matchmaking works to minimize long queue time, people would start posting SS of 3 high MMR players paired with one beginner Claudette or a 50 hour killer versus 4k hour Survivors with offerings and strong items.
I suppose in the past, the intention of hiding it was to prevent elitism when discussing the game. However people are already kind of doing that "You must be low mmr etc" so hiding it kind of defeats the purpose. Devs are damned regardless of whether or not they make MMR visible.
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Sadako has no anti loop and pseudo Stealth to make up for Condemned. However if said Condemned is nerfed, then other aspects of her kit has to be improved to compensate.
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I play in the SEA region and afk doctors are a very small minority.
Midnight to noon having low playerbase is understandable, people are at work/school or just haven't woken up.
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How many people who hate SM actually took the time to learn what the Killer does and try to play against her before solidifying their opinion on her?
How many players already feel like the match will be a boring one when they hear SM's Tr at the start of the game even before the SM has demonstrated their playstyle?
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No, and the devs already have their own rationale for not trying their utmost to minimize tunneling. All the basekit or perk ideas in the world doesn't matter if the motivation to implement them isn't there.
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Sounds like you want a patch fix to make it so Killers cannot 3 gen for 5-10 minutes even if your teammates caused the 3 gen.
I'm sorry that so much of your valuable time had been wasted trying to break that 3 gen. Although the devs has put into place a cap on regression events, the game clearly was not fast enough for you. I'm sure you could have used that time to do something more meaningful like find a cure for diseases or help the impoverished instead of trying to hold m1 in a computer game.
My condolences OP
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Peanits's first paragraph implies two things to me.
- DS is not to be the solution to tunneling, perhaps there are plans for more anti tunnel perks in the pipeline?
- The devs don't think tunneling should be shut down like AFC did for face camping or regression cap for 3 gen stalling. Tunneling is not something new, it's been around for a long time. If devs wanted to shut it down, they wouldn't have to introduce workarounds like OTR, DS, basekit BT etc.
Which leads to the question, "Why can't tunneling be shut down completely? Wouldn't this make the game healthier?"
There is a good likelihood that the answer to the above question is no. The devs are the ones holding all the data, they probably have a pretty good idea of what would happen if tunneling was removed and they do not view this "Non tunnel version of DBD" as a priority, so the next best thing is to introduce bandaids via perks and basekits.
It's not about how to stop tunneling, it's about why tunneling should be stopped.
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The few dedicated Freddy mains out there have been carrying with Freddy so much that some people actually think he's good now.
Props to them for their hard work
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I'm all for pop and pr being nerfed if there were other decent perks to use. As it stands, the Killer meta is pretty much made up of the same few perks across the board. Calling for and implementing nerfs would just lead to people doubling down on the un nerfed meta perks and people would complain about those perks eventually.
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I think having DS deactivated when another survivor is picked up would be a better indicator that the Killer isn't tunneling
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I'm beginning to feel like the answer is to slug Survivors so that they spend time picking up their teammates rather than go for saves
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Feels like deactivating DS if another Survivor is picked up would resolve this scenario.
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Fixing totem placements feels like a lost cause given how chest spawns, killer props, event props on maps of various sizes exist.
The easiest way would probably be making hex totems appear as dulls for a time period. People would probably complain because No One Escapes Death exists though.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690826#Comment_3690826
No, it wont. It did not see use before 6.1.0, even when DS was way stronger. People who say this know will not even equip Knockout, because it is not a good Perk.
@Topic:
100% agreed. Knockout is one of those Perks which is mainly used to make the other side miserablee. It is not really a strong Perk and gets countered by SWF, but if not everyone is in the SWF and with a build around it, it can be really annoying. And the only reason to use it with a specific build is to annoy the other side. It should be completely reworked into a decent Perk.
With how BHVR has been trying to restrict playstyles (Disincentivizing face camping, 3 genning etc) along with the existence of Background Player, maybe some Killer players might just opt to slug more often instead of the traditional down > hook cycle.
Learning when to and when not to slug when 3-4 Survivors are alive is one of the finer points of Killer macroplay in my opinion. However some players may just go for the extreme route and use knockout to compliment their slugging playstyle.
If you're extremely confident that this perk will not see much use, that's fine, I'm just sharing my train of thought