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If devs were worried about “smart plays”, they could reduce the amount of stack each teleport would give to 0.75 instead of coming up with this convulted method of restricting her Condemned pressure.
For the Condemned stack locking, the only rationale I can see for this is to address Survivors getting hooked at 4 stacks with Yoichi’s addon giving them permanent blindness for the entire game. Reducing the maximum locked in stacks to 2 per hook just makes it not worth to hook Survivors. If they were trying to have Sadako only use her Condemn Mori after a Survivor is on death hook similar to Pyramid Head’s Torment mechanic, they forgot that Sadako does not have a chase power and cannot instant hook Survivors like Pyramid Head.
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Punishing players for using their brain when playing Sadako which requires some thinking.
Current Sadako tp logic requires no thinking, upcoming Sadako tp logic restricts thinking.
The counterplay to teleporting to the “wrong tv” from Survivors is either leave the vicinity of the powered tv or grab the tape from said powered tv. Is this counterplay too hard for the average Survivor?
Putting a cap on Condemn lock in will just encourage players to slug.
Ok devs
No changes to the regression logic also means that Survivors can 4.9% gens to deny the Killer from using pop or even kick high progress generators.
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All this talk of tunneling having to go for balance in the game is nice and all but at the end of the day everyone still has to default to BHVR’s stance on it.
If BHVR really wanted, they could make tunneling a reportable offense, they could code the game such that if the Killer hooks the same Survivor again consecutively and said Survivor did not perform any Conspicuous actions from the time they are unhooked till the time they get hooked a second time, the game ends and the Killer gets a 90 day ban.
Instead basekit BT and a few anti tunneling perks make up their overall response.
Clearly the devs don’t share the sentiment or have reservations about tunneling being completely removed. Until that sentiment changes, threads like this are still going to pop up.
What the devs have been slowly doing is eradicating certain playstyles, which ironically is going to push Killers into more tunneling and proxy camping.
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Would love it if Doctor could get an iri add on to make his terror radius mapwide. This would let players benefit from bringing terror radius perks without having to bring distressing or a small map offering
Underused perks like Septic Touch could see more viability
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I’m guessing you weren’t around when Survivor Queues was 10 minutes on default in early 2022 and it was pretty obvious that not a lot of people were playing Killer
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The fact that people are complaining about Lightborn is mind boggling.
Are Killer players running the perk consecutively against you when you equip flashlights? If yes, the answer is probably because your team was rocking 2-3 flashlights in the lobby.
An argument for Lightborn being nerfed could still be made if Flashlight blinds were based on the previous iteration where Killers could still avoid the blind if they turned their camera fast enough.
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Legion suffers from map size syndrome just like any walking Killer. FF may grant increased movement speed but holding W with a headstart on large maps is enough to force them out of their power which turns them into a M1 Killer.
Against a team which takes the time to mend and heal everytime Legion goes on a FF spree, Legion will be an oppressive Killer. Against Survivors with some basic understanding of the Killer, they will know not to heal and just loop while injured or hold W ASAP if they are the 4th Survivor to get hit by FF.
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I’ve had a Steve walk twice behind a haystack in a farm map before vanishing with no scratch marks and of course no stealth related perks in the endgame lobby.
The funny thing was that I saw another Steve with the same pattern in a Macmillan map months ago (Walking behind a wall and vanishing)
Doesn’t get any better than this
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People will complain about gen blocking meta and it will get nerfed.
Don’t even need a soothsayer to confirm this
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Ptsd.
I suspect even if she gets a rework that is healthy from an objective perspective, people will find some way to paint her in the same light as she is currently because the damage has been done and old SM lives rent free.
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Blood warden will be good if gates regressed, forcing Survivors to open the gates before going back for the save
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3630436#Comment_3630436
Reminds me of the whole "solo swf"-gap. Buff "solo" to close the gap, but since theyre the same character most buffs to "solo" will also buff "swf", simply powercreeping the survivor role instead.
Doesnt help that this community often uses "solo" as synonym for "bad players" and "swf" for "good players".
There are people on this forum who still believe that solo can be buffed without swf being buffed as well and Killers can be buffed afterwards if Survivors are too strong.
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There is no counterplay for FTP + Buckle up which invalidates the down that the Killer got.The combo is not situational, it can be used at the beginning, middle and end of the match.
Even the perk that helped to soften the impact of this combo STBFL is getting nerfed in a few weeks.
If no counterplay perk combos are fine for one side, then the same argument could be made for the other side.
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Did all these posters talking about the anti camping system failing to work come from an alternate universe where BHVR implemented an Anti Camping (AC) system instead of the Anti Face Camping (AFC) system that we know in this reality?
Where did they even get the idea that it was an anti camping system in the first place?
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The game doesn’t have a clear idea what kind of game it wants to be, be it a party game for casual players or competitive game for optimized players. That’s why the devs have to take both sides into account when doing their balance.
However like the saying goes, jack of all trades, master of none. This has led to a some balancing decisions that do and don’t make sense depending on which side people advocate for. AFC not utilized in comp because camping and tunneling is accepted while for the casual players, it is a step towards being able to play the game longer albeit not a huge one.
When people argue, it is not solely Survivor vs Killer. Some people on this forum base their arguments around the average gamer (casual) experience while others argue around balance at the top level (competitive).
Balance can’t be achieved until the game decides what it wants to be and commits to that identity. For example, if the game wants to be a casual party game, unfun playstyles like camping and tunneling can be bannable offences and strict mechanics being implemented to shut down such playstyles. If the game wants to be competitive, nerfs to 4 man groups such as perk choices or debuffs could be implemented. Satisfying one side is a much more achievable goal as compared to both.
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The mechanic is called Anti Face Camp, not Anti Camp.
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It’s hard to accept that this change will not affect normal gameplay when it’s pretty blatant that stacking regression perks has a good chance of hitting the cap. (Surge, Eruption, Pain Res, Pop)
I also don’t see how this doesn’t penalize Killers not playing for 3 gens ending up in one due to Survivors rushing gens on one corner of the map unless the intention was to minimize the time spent in a 3 gen match regardless of which side having created the scenario.
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They could just make the limit of 8 regression instances reset upon hooking a Survivor. If the Killer is downing and hooking a Surv, it means the game is being progressed. That way Killer players running gen kick perks and not holding a 3 gen aren’t punished which was what the 3 gen solution was supposed to only target and not general gameplay.
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Feels like devs are pushing the killer meta to gen blocking instead of regression perks and the buff to Grim Embrace.
Expect more DMS, Deadlock in the future
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Still kind of on the fence about the changes since we don’t have all the answers.
I’ll look at her addon changes before giving my thoughts. Inflicting debuffs on tape holders was on my wishlist, but I doubt devs will do that
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Can someone explain the portion about Condemned progress being locked when hooked?
So if I get a Survivor to 5 Stacks of Condemned before hooking that Survivor, that Survivor cannot lose Condemn progress for the rest of the match even if they deposit tapes?
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STBFL + Friends Till The End although the uses are much more niche.
1) Going for non Obsessions and hooking them constantly forces the Obsession to play safe for most of the game. The current counterplay to FTTE as the Obsession is to get far away from a recently hooked Survivor which translates into less altruistic actions. This also works against swf who call out STBFL to their Obsession teammate on comms. Hook trades at endgame become more dangerous since the Obsession can’t go for a hook save for 20 seconds after someone else gets hooked.
2) Finding the Obsession first. Anyone who has used STBFL frequently can probably recall games where their first chase happened to be the Obsession and hooked them once before being forced to ignore them for the rest of the game to get value from stbfl. With the Obsession switch function, the player has the choice to tunnel the original first Obsession later on if the need arises and gain stacks from stbfl at the same time.
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The perk just needs QOL. A separate activation button for the extended lunge so that Killers can use the default and extended lunge as they see fit. This gives more control over the perk usage.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618193#Comment_3618193
some people claim (yes multiple) and defend this combo as an anti tunnel thing therefore justified so we are trying to explain how no more than 5% of uses of the perk is to actually prevent a tunnel. idk why either, they are very irrelevant topics.
i really would like that they won't kill ftp's combo potential with other perks (only wglf currently, which is earned and fair imo) but they can make it so ftp isn't counted as a heal for perk purposes. can't think of a more reasonable solution other than nerfing buckle up, but i also think buckle up isn't problematic by itself, so.
Claiming that people mostly use the combo to prevent tunneling when the combo is available from the start of the game makes me skeptical.
I know a streamer who uses this combo regardless of tunnel or not as long as they are near the downed Survivor.
I’ve had people use that combo against me when I down a Condemned Survivor (No hook states) as Sadako. People will use that combo on a first down or endgame hook trade if they can and not a bat an eye just like how people can and would use old DH as long as it was available.
FTP not being counted as a heal sounds like a good change to stop this combo. Buckle up alone is still a strong anti slug perk even if FTP didn’t work with it.
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@BigHeadAss said:
I think killers who try to justify tunneling, camping, etc just suck at the game and need to either get better so they don't have to resort to tunneling every single match or just find a new game to play. There are literally millions of games, why be the annoyance that everyone hates?
And before you guys jump me, I've been a killer main since this game came out and I have never NEEDED to tunnel to eliminate a survivor from a match. It baffles me every single time I hear about someone tunneling survivors.
Sadly, it's becoming more prevalent with killers who can't prioritize targets and protect gens at the same time. It's just going to get worse.
Good for you if you don’t tunnel? You can play for 8 hook games before eliminating someone and I’ll play for 3 hooks and eliminate someone when the need arises.
You have your own DBD experience since the game came out, that’s cool. No need to insult others who don’t play the game your way if they’re not breaking any rules.
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Slowdown is the most reliable.
Totems are RNG reliant.
Information perks can be countered (Distortion) and knowing where Survivors are doesn’t always equate to downing them.
Most chase perks are condition dependent. Enduring + S. Fury takes time to build up, can be countered by predropping. Dissolution has a timer and Survivors know it’s in play. PWYF requires getting into chase and leaving the Obsession. STBFL requires hitting non Obsessions a few times. Bamboozle and Superior Anatomy sees less value on maps with few windows.
Anti Sabo/Wiggle perks. They work against very Altruistic Survivors but not gen efficient Survivors. Killers have no idea whether they are facing a team which will bodyblock/hover near Killer or a team that just wants to hold M1 and leave.
Endgame perk performance is unstable. How fast NO ED gets cleansed, how many stacks on NWO. Whether Survivors will allow Endgame Collapse to run for a minute without escaping to secure a Blood Warden play etc. Introducing more Endgame perks might see more players switch over to Endgame builds.
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Lots of people have ptsd from pre rework SM and make assumptions about her gameplay the moment they hear the TR.
I went against a SM in Ormond who dropped drones around chokepoints, making it harder to navigate along with the constant undetectable confusing everyone.
I wouldn’t call that “brainless” gameplay.
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I’m sorry that you can’t browse tiktok while doing gens and looking at the HUD occasionally to ensure you aren’t being chased
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I wish Dead Dawg BW shack was implemented for shacks on every map.
That’s about it
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No idea why a discussion about Buckle up + FTP gets sidetracked into tunneling.
This combo is dead hard in another form. Instead of the chased Survivor pressing E, someone else does it for them.
While it means that two people are off gens (Chased Survivor and FTP Survivor), it also extends the time taken to get that first hook which also affects the time taken to get that second hook and so on.
Either the amount of uses FTP gets has to be limited (One use after unhooking someone or being unhooked) or the Broken Status effect duration has to be increased.
Alternatively the endurance effect duration from Buckle up could be reduced but I guess people would cry foul if it went through
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Why would people play the power role if it doesn’t feel like the power role? Or is the Killer being the power role a misconception?
Playing the “antagonist” is one thing.
Playing the “antagonist” that is set up to lose is just being a clown (Not The Clown Killer)
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She is excellent at proxy camping. I assume she suffers against experienced players because she needs that first down to get the ball rolling which is harder to get in difficult games.
Trapping a dropped item after Franklin works a good portion of the time
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Hexes are ok.
The terrible spawn logic of totems is the reason why people don’t use them.
Loading into a game and having your ruin cleansed off the bat is not a good feeling even if it doesn’t happen all the time.
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Devs have the numbers, they can answer the questions and make changes if they see fit.
We know devs want a 60% Kill rate. We know that solo queue experience and escape rate is worse than swf.
If the solo queue escape rate is so low that swf escape rate isn’t enough to bring it up to desirable levels, devs will add changes (More UI additions, basekit Kindred etc). If the devs don’t see any urgency to do so, it implies that they are satisfied with the Kill rate, thus adding more buffs to Solo Queue may see the Kill rate drop below their desired rate and they would have to buff Killer again to compensate which leads to more work overall.
I get why devs want to avoid stating this, but in order for the triangle of Swf, Killer and Solo Queue to be maintained, Solo Queue needs to have a lower escape rate which means devs need to be very careful of how much they bridge the gap between Swf and Solo Queue.
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Franklins and Lightborne are already kind of niche. For Killers, bringing a perk and not getting value from it has more impact than Survivors not bringing items.
An argument for Franklins could still be made if it kept the interaction with Killer items, Pinhead, Nemesis, Wesker. Sadly that interaction has been removed so Killers should see Survivor items to prepare accordingly.
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Giving a notification to the Obsession that the perk is in play would be enough.
There is counterplay to the perk, just that the Obsession won’t notice the Killer has it especially in solo queue.
If swf can call out that a Killer has stbfl and have the obsession play altruistically, I don’t see why solo queue can’t be given the same information.
If the Obsession in solo queue knows the Killer has stbfl and refuses to take hits, that’s a player issue and not perk.
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Would be nice if they could just let players choose their own colors for gens and auras. I don’t even see the logic of changing the aura colors of gens for events to yellow.
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Swf is one thing.
It’s another when people pretend that the impact that a duo or trio has on the game is minimal compared to solo queue.
Sure swf can’t be nerfed, but this group is probably the one of the main reasons why players just tunnel and camp at 5 gens. If the game is full of bad players as the narrative goes, then it’s more likely for an average Killer to lose to a swf than 4 “competent solo queue players”.
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The synergy with other Obsession perks is what makes it good. It’s a pressure perk and not solely an aura reveal perk.
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The basement is supposed to be a dangerous zone.
The counterplay is to identify where basement spawns early in the game and avoid looping in the area.
It wouldn’t be a “basement” if it had an additional exit, it would just be another room.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Toxicity. Thats all.
You already get blamed that you play in an SWF while being Solo. And while I would totally love to show some Killers that they just lost against 4 Solos and not some Comp-SWF as they think, we all know that it would just lead to toxicity, because Killers would think that they only lost because the opponent was in an SWF and not because they missed 40% of their Hatchets or blinked into the Basement while chasing a Survivor around Shack 5 times. (Heck, some will probably even claim that they went against Hackers because they were shown as Solos while CLEARLY being SWF...)
And in this forum? You would only see lost games gainst SWFs so that people can "prove their point". They will not show the games they won against SWF or lost against Solos. We would only get a very selective view on postgame screenshots...
I don’t see how not knowing if a team was a swf in postgame would influence whether a disgruntled Killer player would be toxic or not. If the player would attribute their loss to a swf rather than their misplays, what’s stopping them from thinking “It’s probably a swf calling out my moves” in the current environment? If someone wanted to be toxic, they would be toxic regardless of knowing if it was 4 solo queues or 4 swf. It’s just a difference in how the toxicity is expressed. The comment “Overpowered 4 man try hard squad” would just become “Survivor sided game hand holding 4 random players” in the endgame chat.
Also, some people here already attribute all their losses to swf irregardless. Would them cherry picking the losses due to swf make much difference? The replies to these posts would just change from “How do you know it was a swf” to “How many swf do you get in all your games?”
Knowing who was in a swf or not in games would at the very least give unbiased people the ability to track their games and share their findings which would definitely help to move more conversations about swf vs solo queue along. I see this as a plus that supersedes any potential “negative”
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Let them enjoy their win streaks perhaps? They’re not breaking any rules or cheating while doing their win streaks.
I assume these players have already played lots of DBD and farming for bloodpoints isn’t attractive to them anymore. If games are dumbed down further till the point that experience and adequate game sense doesn’t mean much, what’s the point of playing?
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Dbd mobile might end up being the real DBD Killer that every new Assym was touted to be. Better UI, better costumes, new moris, new game modes. All that’s left is for dbd mobile to add mobile exclusive Killers
People have eyes and ears. They see and hear about what DBD mobile has to offer and ask themselves why the main game doesn’t have X and Y but the mobile version does. So far the answers to these questions have been disappointing
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@Alen_Starkly said:
I would love it if BHVR reverted the Adept requirements for killers - make it require double pipping again, instead of getting a 4K. And then, if there are 2 people left in the trial, and one is slugged for a minute, auto-heal that person from the dying to the injured state. (or bleed them out instantly)
I feel like in most cases, people slug for 4K only for either adept or their ego. "Having to 4k no matter what" is not a healthy mindset, imo. Your life won't crumble to pieces if you potentially get a 3K instead of a 4K.
I would also like to have survivor adepts changed too - instead of an escape, make it require a double pip. It will teach survivors to do gens, be altruistic and practise chases. Adept on survivor can lead to the survivor hiding a lot, and not contributing much to the team.
People don’t just slug for 4k because of ego and adept. The game isn’t very clear on whether you’ve pipped or not especially on higher grades so trying to get hooks on both of the remaining survivors helps in that aspect. I’ve had games where I depipped at higher grades even with a 3k because one Survivor suicided on hook which affected my emblems.
If I knew I would have gotten a pip even if I let one Survivor try for the hatch, I would do so.
The game scoring system itself encourages hooking and killing all 4 survivors instead of 3. If depips were removed and pipping was less strict, casual Killer players would at the very least have lesser incentive to slug the 3rd Survivor.
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The upcoming mangled change could be changed from longer heal time to a generator speed deficit while injured with mangled. That would make it healing from Sloppy Butcher feel less awful and incentivize healing
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Reduce your time spent on Killer or switch to Survivor.
Devs aren’t going to buff Killers because of a forum post. When survivor queue times become 10 mins even with Killer incentives, the devs will be forced to improve the Killer experience because this affects the Survivor experience by proxy.
People can scream at you for slugging, camping or tunneling, but they can’t say anything if you refuse to play Killer
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I don’t think we are the ones you need to convince OP, it’s the devs.
Especially when they have come out to say they are ok with people using crosshairs which would probably fall under “cheating” by your definition.
You could acquire BHVR, then you have the freedom to implement whatever vision you have for the game. Just know that I wouldn’t play dbd if someone like you was in charge and decided to implement draconian measures like phone number verification.
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It’s going to take years according to the AMA
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It’s also dbd mobile.
The platform has been out for a fraction of the time OG DBD has and yet there are so many things they have implemented that the community wants ranging from QOL to great skins/alternate moris and even a new game mode recently.
Naturally people would look at all this new stuff and ask themselves “Why doesn’t the OG game have all these? What are devs so busy with where even implementing QOL changes may take months if not years?” Sure the public may not be aware of the workflow that OG dbd has going on, but that is where PR has to come in to manage expectations and portray things in a better light.
The devs are all great people, but I think the PR in responding to questions could be handled better.
The comment that Otz talked about in his video regarding showing perks in the lobby definitely could have been phrased to something like “We have a lot lined up now but we’ll do our best to slot it in when we can!”
The reply acknowledging that nothing could be done about suiciding on hook sounded so … desolate. I could even sense that the dev replying had no idea how to resolve hook suicides and had no intention of trying. Even if that is the internal opinion of the dev team, it’s not something that should be acknowledged to the public. Once again it could have been PR-ed better.
As much as I get the point of the AMA is to be truthful as much as possible, the comments don’t just reflect the opinion of the devs but of the company itself. I’m not going to assume only one dev thinks that hook suicides can’t be fixed when I read the reply, I’m going to assume that BHVR as a whole is aware of hook suicides and acknowledges officially that it can’t be fixed.
The PR needs to be better.
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You are asking for Killers to play for different chases and hooks when it is not a feasible strategy across multiple games, not to mention that some Killers are designed to deny areas rather than chase a Survivor from pallet to pallet.
Until this gets changed, I don’t see why the devs should jump the gun and make an anti camping system first.