albertoplus
albertoplus
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@Choaron said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3846056#Comment_3846056
And the lingering hitbox of Hellfire. And Medusa. They almost completely misunderstood what needed to be nerfed with this killer indeed.
Hellfire was fine. Its already handicapped by high obstacles, had a long cooldown and its the only thing Dracula has in Vampire form. Keep in mind other forms have both M2 and passives, but Vampire form only has the M2 with no special passives.
The hitbox its also tight and you can pretty much bait it and dodge like any other ranged attack.
@Mandy said:
For the release tomorrow the Live Changes will be as they were in the PTB - however, there will be space in the hotfixes that follow to make changes to those live balance adjustments. We need the feedback on them once they are live.
So…what was the point on the feedback outside the new killer in the PTB feedback section..?
Dracula Wolf changes are missing the point, honestly. Wolf form was marketed as Dracula's tracking tool, and it does terrible tracking. Most of the track is inside the chase where you don't need it. Outside the chase the orbs dont drop if survivor dont move or just walk, so the Wolf form ends being just another chase tool and even worse than Vampire.
The changes (small CD reduction in Pounce charge time and the 1 second faster orb rate) will not help on this. Pounce will still be incredibly hard to hit and easy to dodge, will still be worse than Hellfire as a chase tool and his tracking, while it should be the thing that makes Wolf form unique, will still be subpar.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840437#Comment_3840437
Because of how bloated his kit is, for a power of that nature. Hyper-mobility can be tricky to balance because of the way survivors have to play around it. They are powerful abilities, after all.
Hillbilly and Oni are good examples of well-designed killers with hyper mobility. Hillbilly has the charge time to keep in mind and Oni has to build up his power, but in return they are gifted a good power. That is fun, and fair.
Wesker in the other hand, is a perfect example of a horribly designed killer, for a power of that nature. He has barely any charge time to worry about, he can vault, he creates a countdown towards Hindered and he gets a notification of your location as soon as you get rid of the infection (which you have to do). Passive slowdown and information are good abilities, but they cannot be paired together with mobility. This is way too much.
Even if you somehow play perfectly against him you will go down, because you will get slowed down and once you're fully infected he only needs to get you once, while not worrying about… well, anything. And it doesn't help that the few resources you can use against him are scarce, thanks to the map reworks, so regardless of which direction he throws you (which shouldn't exist as an ability to begin with), there is a good chance you will be stuck on a deadzone with nothing to use. His hitboxes are extremely inconsistent. Not to mention his incredible potential for tunneling, which thankfully isn't as intense as it used to be before his nerf.
Also, he doesn't even contribute to the horror atmosphere and his voice-lines are annoying.
He is not unbeatable, of course. No killer is. But I don't think his power is healthy for the game. I would be happy to never see him again.
Terrible killer design.
Honestly it just seems like a personal hate against the killer (dont get me wrong, i also have some vendetta against some killers even if they are not very good: i just hate playing against them).
Its kinda interesting that you did mention Hillbilly as a "well-designed killer" when after the last buffs he got he is starting to be considered again a top tier killer, usually top 5 and sometimes even top 3 just after Nurse and Blight.
Well after that he got some nerfs so its probably not top 3 anymore but i still see people putting him at top 5 consistently, higher than Wesker.
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@GeneralV said:
I am still genuinely surprised the PTB didn't include any nerfs to him. I think this killer is extremely poorly designed for a high mobility power.
Out of curiosity, why?
He needs skill to use his power and its not that hard for the survivors to dodge. He is one of the few killers in the entire game that if it hits the survivor when the survivor is finishing the pallet/window jump, he will not hit with the power while almost every other killer hits (before it actually did but got shadow nerfed).
He got his infection nerfed to both address tunneling (good) but also the hindered effect from 8% to 4%, making survivors a lot of times just not cleansing it as if there is some decent loop you can still loop him anyways.
Also, half of the time when the loops are with rubbish (rocks and trees) you cannot even hit with your power due to being in a straight line.
I have mained Wesker until Dracula came out, and i think he is one of the most overrated killers in the entire game. He should not be more than a B+ killer honestly.
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Wolf still needs far more changes. Its still terrible at tracking while the form was marketed as his tracking tool, and his pounce is still easy af to dodge and hard to aim.
I also dont even understand why the nerf to Hellfire. It was fine already, a ranged attack you could bait, dodge and is still hindered by not being able to go through high obstacles.
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@Jock21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832672#Comment_3832672
Literally all the things you've listed you can do against Dracula you can do against Spirit efficiently as well, her invisibility is massively overrated against survivors with a good headphone. And if you get juked as Spirit you now have a longer cooldown than Dracula and you're getting looped as a 110% speed killer with no other antiloop options till your power comes back, that's why Spirit is now weaker as well. And Scott Jund isn't the only one putting Dracula over Spirit, I've seen even some comp players doing it as well so Spirit is indeed getting outclassed by Dracula, you're just refusing to see it.
I like I've said, I've mained Spirit for much longer than Dracula for obvious reasons and I've won (or at least 2ked) with her against sweaty teams with map offerings, instant heals, gen rush builds and even stacked Iron Wills but I can still tell that atm she definitely has more weaknesses against good survivors than Dracula does.
Literally all the things you've listed you can do against Dracula you can do against Spirit efficiently as well, her invisibility is massively overrated against survivors with a good headphone. And if you get juked as Spirit you now have a longer cooldown than Dracula and you're getting looped as a 110% speed killer with no other antiloop options till your power comes back, that's why Spirit is now weaker as well.
The "good headphones" thing is a myth. Yes it helps, but i can assure you a lot of people play already with headphones (hell i would say that most people do it) and Spirit is still ranked at the top most of the time. By having headphones doesnt make Spirit far worse of all sudden. If it did, Spirit would be a low tier killer, as headphones basically "countered" her. You can still catch people even if they are aware of the sound, and you have a much easier time doing it than Dracula due to being invisible, having easier time to juke pallets (if people camp a thrown pallet you will not hit them as Dracula's Bat form) and being faster than Dracula.
And Scott Jund isn't the only one putting Dracula over Spirit, I've seen even some comp players doing it as well so Spirit is indeed getting outclassed by Dracula, you're just refusing to see it.
There are some comp players that see Dracula above Spirit. There are also some comp players that see Spirit over Dracula. The "i am refusing to see it" can also be applied to you.
I mantain what i said. Against better players Spirit has an easier chance as she has more lethality than Dracula. If you play both of them extremely well, its easier to juke out Dracula than Spirit. Throw a pallet and camp it, now Dracula has two options:
- Either break the pallet and go into next loop because he cant M1 after transforming from Bat form
- Change into Wolf or Vampire form and go into the standard mindgames with the survivor to hit with his M2. Bonus points if it has high obstacles as he will not be able to Hellfire
At the meanwhile Spirit has always been easier to hit on pallets, even with the directional sound.
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@AhoyWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832712#Comment_3832712
Yea they'll probably nerf the bat a bunch, the ideal nerf in my eyes would be to make Survivors really difficult to track, so you cannot really use it well in a chase, only for traversal, + a slightly longer switching cooldown for bat form only, so from Vampire to Wolf it would be the current 2.5 seconds, and from Wolf / Vampire to Bat it would be like 4 seconds maybe.
I mean you cannot even see them in Bat form. You also do not see pools of blood, how do you make it even harder for tracking?? The form has literally an extremely hindered tracking.
You cannot go and just remove the scratch marks too. That would destroy it both for chase and mobility, as the survivors could now just run if they see you coming and once you transform back into Vampire/Wolf they would be far away already.
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Hatch is always called as a "null" thing (even if the survivor escapes, for the killer it does count as a 4k). However that is just not the truth. The survivor gets the BP for escaping but the killer does not get the same BP as if did kill the survivor as far as i know, so its not a "null" thing and it actually favors the survivor.
So one of those two things should be done:
- Give the killer the exact same BP as the survivor for escaping, or just remove the BP from the survivor.
Or
- Give also the same RNG mechanic for the killer. The survivor can get the hatch on a losing situation as a last-resort win. Make so if 3 or 4 survivors escape (which is usually a "loss" for the killer), there is a chance that one of them are sacrificed by the entity instead when they are about to leave.
This would make things the same for both the survivor and the killer, giving them a RNG chance of transforming the "loss" into a "win" situation.
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@Jock21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831444#Comment_3831444
People are still blinded by the period when Spirit used to compete with Nurse in terms of strength but after all the nerfs she received + buffs other killers received and new strong killers being released she's now pretty comparable now in terms of strength with pretty much any A tier killer, which includes Dracula. Heck even other 10k hours killer mains streamers like Tru3 and Otz started placing Spirit outside of top 5 in their killers tier list so the better players are starting to see that she's not all that anymore.
And considering that she has weaker mobility, longer cooldown, punishes mistakes harsher and is more add-on reliant than Dracula I don't see why a comparison should between these 2 should be forbidden. I main both and in my eyes, Spirit just has more weaknesses against good survivors. And even tho kill rates aren't the end all to a killer's strength, I highly doubt Spirit's kill rates considerably falling off ever since IW went back into the meta is a coincidence.
Latest Otz killer list its from 9 months ago, from patch 7.5.0, where Spirit was already nerfed, and he ranked her at 3rd place after Nurse and Blight. I think the only change we could maybe have in that tier list now that could dethrone Spirit is that Chucky has become somewhat of a monster after the recent changes, but thats it.
One advantage Dracula has over her its that its easier to play, but Spirit will always have more lethality in chase due to the fact that you can see Dracula in Bat form while you need to hear Spirit phasing sound well enough to know where she is, and due to her speed while phasing and if she is close to you, the sound can be deceiving, while you will see 100% where the Bat is.
The better the player is, the better results he will have with Spirit over Dracula, due to how easier is to deceive survivors if you know to do good phasing compared to using Dracula's Bat form.
One thing i have noticed that survivors do and probably makes them feel Dracula is unfair is that they throw a pallet, stun Dracula, start running into the next loop, they see Dracula transforming into Bat form to go over that pallet and they try to keep running into the next loop anyways and Dracula just catches them in Bat form and downs them.
If you see Dracula transforming into a Bat to pass over a pallet….just dont leave that pallet. Spirit can totally hit you if she phases just next to you, you dont have time to jump the pallet, but Dracula cant. If he transforms into the Vampire form then you can just safely jump over the pallet and Dracula will not be able to M1 you in time due to the transformation delay where you cannot attack.
The more i play Dracula, the more survivors seem to counterplay me well enough. They bait me while i am in Bat form doing things like running then doing a 180º and running back so the scratch marks overlap, they jump fast a window then slow vault back so i cannot hear them, they wait in a pallet side until i transform to jump over the pallet,…
As i said, i see Dracula as a strong (not overpowered or broken) killer. But Spirit is still better than him, thats why i dont understand the outcry and the comparison between them. If he somehow "dethroned" Spirit in the "tier list" i would understand a little better, but Spirit is still the better killer right now, even counting all of Dracula's tools.
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Update: It seems to be something void-related. I think it did happen on my next game too, i entered the void, left it and it got fixed. Its like the "void" sound effects and environment are applied outside of the void, hindering the audio.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831874#Comment_3831874
Aren’t you someone who has spoken out against survivors giving up on hook..? Yet here you are essentially saying:
“If only that pesky survivor on hook would just DIE so the killer can use their mori. >=^(“
“It’s the survivor’s fault they didn’t give up on hook!”
As a killer main who has complained about survivors giving up on hook. You can’t really have both.
Honestly i dont even remember about that. Maybe i did, maybe i dont.
However im pretty sure you know that giving up on hook at first down or giving up on hook when you are the second to last to die, the other two survivors are dead and the last one is being slugged…yeah, those are not by far the same thing, and you know it.
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@JustAShadow said:
Wolf form is actually really good, just deceptively hard to get the hang of, so most people avoid using it.
Im sorry but this is not true at the slightest.
I have been playing mostly Dracula-only since he came out, i play with the 3 forms and Wolf is just bad. As the "tracking tool" that Dracula has is actually terrible as tracking and in chase the Vampire form is better in 95% of loops. Hell even in some loops with high walls where you are not supposed to use Hellfire there is usually some window/pallet that makes you able to Hellfire the survivor through it or bait the survivor to not jump/throw it with Hellfire.
Im happy if people enjoy using Wolf only, the same way as if someone is using Trapper without traps. Honestly that seems like an easy match for the survivor too so the survivors will also be happy of you using it.
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Mori should totally be available if every person is hooked already.
Having said that, however… i think you should also blame the survivor who is struggling in the hook when no one is going to come to rescue him. That person can get out asap and so the killer will mori and the match will end.
The killer choses to mori in that situation, but the hooked survivor choses to drag out that moment. Its both's fault.
On that case yeah, killer should be able to mori if everyone else are hooked so the match can be over quickly.
Now, about the slugging last second person so he finds and mori the last one.. it was already being done thanks to hatch, so nothing changes here.
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@Royval said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805661#Comment_3805661
I don’t think bat form has any counterplay tbh
The fact that it cannot see survivors opens up a natural counterplay already.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831444#Comment_3831444
OMG did he really say hellfire is better than PH's range? I didn't watch the video mainly because I just disagree with his point and as you said I feel Scott just has something out for Dracula. Btw weeks after Dracula came out Scott made a video explaining why he didn't like him and don't see himself playing him much and now here he is saying Dracula is to overpower and is completely invalidates another killer existence. Don't know what change but seems he changed his mind on the dark lord.
Either way yeah I completely disagree with Scott on hellfire. PH range attack is so much better than hellfire. I mean...it can go though all walls something hellfire can't do at all.
At min 7:00 if you want. He literally says "Hellfire is better than half of the powers that are similar, better than Nemesis tentacle, better than Pyramid Head.." and he even says "..with shorter cooldown". Like WHAT? Dracula has 7s cooldown, Nemesis and Pyramid Head have literally zero cooldown.
Maybe with the cooldown thing he meant the delay where he cannot attack after casting Hellfire. But still, saying that his ranged attack is better than Pyramid Head is still a blatant lie.
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Isnt the mori animation actually shorter than picking the survivor - moving into a hook - all of the hook + death animation?
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@Jock21 said:
Glad to see I'm not the only one seeing the reality of these 2 killers as it stands currently (tho probably not for long considering Dracula's upcoming changes in the next month):
Im sorry but, even if i like Scott (he is one of the few dbd streamers i follow on Twitch) that video is full of BS and it seems he just have some personal vendetta against Dracula.
- Spirit is usually still relegated as the better killer. Usually being put in top 5 killers in the game, and sometimes some people even put her at top 3 just after Nurse and Blight, so i dont know where the "Spirit vs Dracula" comparison comes when Spirit is still the better killer and more competitively viable than Dracula.
- All of his arguments started to fall apart when he called "Hellfire" basically stronger ranged attack than Pyramid Head, Nemesis… I mean, cmon, Pyramid Head is still the absolute king of medium-ranged attacks, being able to bypass basically everything and have 0 cooldown. And he said Hellfire was a better ranged attack. No. Just no.
- Also about Hellfire, he said "misses it and doesnt get punished for it". Like, what? It has a basekit 7 seconds cooldown. Pyramid Head or Nemesis miss their ranged attacks and have a "try again" button ready.
When he started saying those thing about Hellfire i knew he just hates Dracula for some reason and wants to rant about him.
Dracula is strong. Not broken or overpowered: just strong. But Scott was just blatantly lying on that video.
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@Steakdabait said:
The counter is to not let 5 gens pop.
The counter to tunneling/camping is to not get caught. So, remove the basekit BT, dont get caught and you will not need it.
We can say the same to both Survivors and Killers. Honestly the "the counter is to play better" should not be said.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829624#Comment_3829624
Well i do maintain 100% of the achievements/challenges but i wouldnt say im one of the best. My main is xeno. Im used to playing without tunneling/camping etc. Im just pointing out that dracula is strong enough to win without using all his forms
What i meant is that is not an indicator of Dracula being strong. Its either one of these 3 things:
- You are not saying the truth by saying you win "80% of the time with a hindered Dracula"
- The people you play against are honestly absolutely terrible
- If what you say is the truth and the people you play against are good, then as you are playing just as a "hindered ranged killer" that means you can play any other ranged killer and win almost 100% of the time. Hell if you think Dracula is strong on that state then killers like Huntress, Nemesis, Pyramid Head, Deathslinger, Xeno etc are absolutely broken and needs to be heavily nerfed
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@BrotharealsteelX said:
Another idea is to take away the scratch marks for bat form to mimic the Spirits phase.
Again, problem seems to be the Shapeshift, or the Shapeshift + Bat form combined.
Bat form as a standalone power is just "decent".
Also, different killers, different powers. Trying to nerf it by "mimicking" the other one does not make any sense.
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@Senaxu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829800#Comment_3829800
Hellfire is almost perfect, if anything it needs to be very slightly buffed. Why nerf it?
Well, you already mentioned it. He needs no buffs. BHVR is not stupid, they are smart if you look at it from the right perspective.
I just said that between nerfing or buffing Hellfire, it should be slightly buffed instead of nerfed, but i dont think it needs buffs or nerfs anyways. Im just saying that Hellfire doesnt need any nerfs.
Also, i wouldnt call them "smart" seeing some track record with a lot of killers and very doubtful balancing decisions.
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@I_CAME said:
The Bat Form has to be nerfed significantly. The current state of it has Dracula in the conversation to be an S tier killer. There is basically no cooldown to go from bat form into an M1. It's completely overtuned and also brain dead gameplay. Dracula will be a fair killer once this is solved.
It will be fair if they also buff Wolf form heavily. If not, then Bat form will be "fair", Vampire form will be "fair" and Wolf form will be "bad".
@Senaxu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829733#Comment_3829733
Have you ever seen a truly experienced Dark Lord player? He really doesn't need any more buffs.
Strictly speaking: When the sales figures are reached, he will be adjusted to a suitable level.On the quote you did mention from me i didnt mention buffs tho?
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@BrotharealsteelX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829498#Comment_3829498
Definitely a higher cooldown for bat form and maybe a time limit on bat form so you can’t just stay as a bat looking for hatch or patrol doors so easily. Maybe lower the movement speed on it without a time limit? Just trying to think of way to balance it.
Time limit on Bat form would be an absolute terrible idea.
People are talking about the chase aspect, you are supposed to stay in bat form always for patrol.
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@Marc_123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829709#Comment_3829709
Playstyle has changed. You notice it.
Honestly, how? People were slugging already for hatch.
The only extra slug that its done is if 3rd survivor is hooked and the killer wants to kill the last one, but if the survivor just doesnt struggle and gets killed, its pretty fast.
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Basekit yellow mori its fine, it should have been like this since 2016.
If the killer does the mori to you, you were going to die anyways 99% sure.
Slugging did exist before already for hatch, so..nothing changes.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
I often just try to play him as casual as possible. Meaning i only use either his vampire form or his wolf form the entire round, never using bats unless i just need to go upstairs somewhere. And i still win 80% of the time.
Honestly then you could go any ranged killer and win almost 100% of the time. If what you are saying its true then you are basically one of the best players in the world.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
Make the bat form be able to knock survivors off of high ledge and into holes and instantly kill them. 😂
No but seriously I think:
Hellfire: higher cooldowns
Wolf form: a tiny bit faster and much better tracking
Bat form: make slower, improve stealth
Hellfire is almost perfect, if anything it needs to be very slightly buffed. Why nerf it?
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Dracula is not broken. He is strong, but not broken.
Also, the comparison between his powers and other killers needs to stop already. There are like, only 5 killers with fully original powers. The rest of the entire killer cast have powers with borrowed properties from those 5. I remember people saying the same with Wesker compared to Demo when he came out, or Nemesis compared to Pyramid Head. I would assume that after some time people would stop the same way it did happen with Wesker or Nemesis but here we are.
But, if comparisons are to be made…
No, Spirit is still much better than Bat form. She can instantly attack after using her power, Bat form cant. She is fully invisible and only emits an audio cue that can help the survivor, but due to her speed moving while invisible and if the distance to you is short, the audio cue can "overlap" with himself making it harder to predict while you can just……see the bat.
What would you nerf about Bat? He only got two Bat buffs: Teleport speed and movement speed.
The teleport speed needed to be buffed because it was atrocious how slow it was while being hindered by both distance (32m) and teleport points (only to vaults). Also, it makes a smoke where Dracula is teleporting so survivors are fully aware.
The movement speed from 6 to 6.5 i admit it was kinda wild and not expected, but i dont think it is a big deal honestly.
What would you nerf then, if before those buffs Bat form was deemed underpowered?
Also, if your answer is going to be related with Shapeshift, then your problem is with Shapeshift itself, not Bat form, as outside of those two buffs, Bat form has always been like this and people did not have any problem at all.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828109#Comment_3828109
I think Bat Form's true potential didn't become as obvious right away until they buffed it.
I originally thought it was underpowered as well. Now, I think I was wrong about that.
I do think it was underpowered. The teleport speed was atrocious for how restricted it is. I didnt have much of a problem with the normal movement speed so the buff to 6.5m was a bit weird but i dont think its that insane.
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@okaayletsgoo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827799#Comment_3827799
He can trap you at tons of locations with hellfire being on a 6 second cooldown, guarantee hits through vaults and pallets slides but take no drawback being able to shape shift to bat and catch up in seconds and repeat. It's just too much counterplay to anything a survivor does. 6 second cooldown on miss is fine but on a hit and then you bat form, catch up and hit again with it is wild
He could already hit you and catch you in bat form before the Bat and Shapeshift buffs. And yet Bat form was deemed underpowered.
Also, the cooldown thing doesnt make any sense. You want him to have more cooldown if he actually gets a hit? So he gets rewarded for playing well by having more cooldown?
Also, the "guaranteed" hits in pallets/windows have been a thing with Nurse, Huntress, Plague (with activated power), Demo, Deathslinger (on some pallets, all windows), Pyramid Head, Nemesis, … But as you can imagine, on most of these killers, Dracula included, it can still be baited or the pallet pre-dropped if you reach it in time.
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Bam is an addon, is not basekit. I agree it is somewhat strong.
Without that, TPing to a window in chase is mostly useless. The survivor sees you transforming into a cloud and going into a window, and he can just go into another direction while Dracula keeps teleporting to it.
Also, what is wrong with hellfire? It has cooldown, slowdown, counterplay (bait it and dodge) and its hindered by not being able to go through high obstacles.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827419#Comment_3827419
The problem is, that the bat is very similar and even has some advantages (ignores pallets and windows / TP) when compared to spirit.
Dracula however has two more powers AND is 4.6. This might sound controversial, but a killer with that many powers should not be better or equally strong with one power as another killer, as this makes other killers feel obsolete (power creep)
Draculas bat is probably the best catch up tool in the game right now (ignores pallets and windows / has no range or time limit). If this is viewed in a vacuum, then it's absolutely fine. However, he has still two other powers on top of it. It's the same issue with Vecna. Multiple powers have to be relative weak to balance the overall power level of the character. Due to Draculas bat form being that strong of a catch up tool and because it negates any downtime a survivor can gain during chase I'm for a slight nerf to the transition speed for the bat form alone.
That's why I prefer killers with one power. It's simpler to balance.
But again, as a standalone power, its already much worse than spirit. Spirits power its much, much easier to get a hit with (totally invisible, only an audio cue that is not always useful for the survivor due to how it works, you can instantly hit people outside of it).
Honestly just because he can TP (mostly useless in chase unless you have some addons equipped) and ignore pallets/windows doesnt make "equal" to Spirit. Spirit is much better to get hits.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827148#Comment_3827148
Thank God, he can't immediately attack out of it. Spirit players would reconsider their entire existence if that was the case.
Totally agree with you on that. Thats why i dont understand the "Bat form its just a better Spirit" that a lot of people are saying. Spirit can hit much, much, much easier than Dracula out of Bat form.
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@radiantHero23 said:
The speed of transition in and out of bat form negates any reward a survivor can gain while in chase due to it being one of the, if not THE strongest catch up tool in the game.
With a delay to the transition speed of the bat (not the other forms) , he would be perfectly fine.
He could already do that before the Bat and Shapeshift buffs. And yet Bat form was deemed as "underpowered".
He already gets slowed down when transforming and has a delay on it where he cannot attack.
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Bat form is decent and as a standalone form if anything it would need buffs.
The problem people seems to have is with Shapeshift cooldown(i have lost how many times did i say this..) but they keep bashing Bat form.
"He can hit me, transform and be on top of me in no time!", he already did that before Bat buffs. Yet the form was deemed as underpowered.
As a standalone form, bat form is not THAT good. Cannot see survivors, cannot see pools of blood, it is supposed to be undetectable but have a 48m lullaby, Dracula gives a global sound cue when he transforms, his teleport is hindered by both distance (32m) and teleport poins (only vaulting windows/pallets). He has some buffs like 50% better hearing and 6.5m faster mov speed but thats it.
But thats fine, he has more powers to work on, so the Bat form being just "decent" as a standalone form its fine.
And i will repeat, if they manage to nerf Bat form/Shapeshift, they need to absolutely giga buff Wolf form, which is terrible.
Im also surprised that people seems to complain about Vampire form / Hellfire? The attack is again decent as a ranged attack but has clear counterplay and you can also bait it like any other ranged killer.
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826566#Comment_3826566
30 was accepted by killers but 25 should be a fine compromise
Completely disagree.
40 was too much and people were getting grabbed by outside wesker FOV. 20 was too little and survivors were literally passing through Wesker without being grabbed.
30 was accepted by both killers and survivors. Hell even with 30 sometimes survivors just pass through my FOV and dont get grabbed.
Put it at 25 and you will see Wesker going through survivors without being grabbed. Again.
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Right now Vampire form is decent, Bat form is decent-good and Wolf form is absolutely terrible.
The problem people has is with Shapeshift 2.5 secs CD, but they still bash Bat form anyways. Before all the Bat buffs, Dracula could still hit someone, trasnform into Bat and catch up the survivor quickly. And yet Bat form was deemed a bit underpowered and needed buffs.
Wolf form needs to be buffed hard by actually tracking survivors when the tracking is most needed: outside of chase.
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@LordVoidron said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3825857#Comment_3825857
The window blocking isnt really that bad, ive played against 3ish players with that addon on survivor side, and I just double back and hold W to next loop when I see them bat-form mid chase.
The issues with bat-form are out of chase things like having them teleport to a window right next to your gen and transform back to Dracula before you were ever aware of their presence.
Then in vampire form they can camp easier by multi-hitting the unhooked and the unhooker for free (It isnt bubba levels of bad but its pretty nasty; Similarly to bubba-camp its just a minor annoying thing and doesn't really need fixed).There is literally a smoke that warns survivors where he is teleporting, and the Bat form has a global audio cue that tells survivors that they should be aware as he can teleport.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824240#Comment_3824240
I'm pretty sure I've stated it was good on the whole spectrum. It was even a factor as to why that perk was good as it was.
Why an "A" perk should be nerfed?
And it's not "for free". It uses a perk slot.
What's the big idea breaking what doesn't need to be.
Honestly i didnt quote you because the "Its only good for beginners" its an argument that a lot of people are using, so i wasnt directly quoting you on this matter.
It needs to be nerfed because….it is extremely strong? As i said, i dont think the perk is "overpowered" (and those should also be nerfed) but is still strong. Just because there are more broken perks doesnt mean this one should absolutely stay.
Thats literally like saying "as long as Nurse exist, never nerf another killer at all, as long as it is weaker than Nurse".
And you knew exactly what i was saying when i said "for free". You need absolutely zero input.
For the killer to get value from the perk Eruption it needs first to kick a gen and then to down a survivor. And one of the complains people had for the old eruption is that "it was for free".
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People will keep using the "Its only good on beginners" (notice the "only" word highlighted) to try their best to not get the perk nerfed and thats a blatant lie.
Perk also helps experienced people by knowing where a pallet has been thrown by a teammate. Keep in mind that not all experienced prople are 4-man swf with comms.
Otzdarva explained it pretty well on his last survivor perk tier list video. Hell when i started seeing the video i though he was going to put the perk in D or E tier and ended at the top of the A tier just below S tier and the strongest perks. For beginners, it helps them knowing the pallet spawns. For experienced people, it helps them knowing where the pallets have been thrown by a teammate.
You can be god at looping, then when you are getting chased you can go into a tile with a very strong pallet only to see that the pallet has already been thrown and broken. Most of those tiles means the killer gets a hit. With WoO you would not have run to this tile and instead you could have went into another one which still had a pallet, with the possibility to keep extending the chase over and over and keep buying time for your teammates.
And all of this for free, because the perk has no activation method or cooldown.
The perk is not "overpowered", but very, very, very strong and nerf-worthy.
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@Zakon05 said:
It's the transformation cooldown that's making bat form overpowered, not bat form by itself. Though bat form would still be pretty insanely good.
The transformation cooldown when swapping between vampire and wolf forms is barely of note. It only matters for bat form, and the only reason it matters is because it turns bat form into a third chase power on top of being a map traversal tool.
If they put the cooldown back to 5 seconds, bat form would still be one of the best map traversal abilities in the entire game. It doesn't also need to be strong in chase, especially when it eats into the identity of wolf form in being the best option for pursuing survivors out in the open.
Edit: Let me put this in perspective. I am a p100 Freddy. Freddy is pretty widely known as being one of the worst killers in the game, yet paradoxically he always commands a high kill rate. Most people don't know why.
I know why. It's the teleport.
Freddy outputs an insane amount of pressure if the survivors don't take advantage of how poor he is in chase. He just needs Barbecue or Thrilling Tremors and he can bounce between chases instantly. Down a survivor and you're in a new chase with another survivor in literal seconds, 0 downtime.
Everything I just said applies to bat form even without it being good in chase. Except unlike Freddy's teleport, it doesn't turn off after the 5th gen. And it's attached to Dracula, a killer with great chase powers.
Why does an ability like that also need to be useful in chase on a killer with two other chase powers?
I dont think its a good idea to discuss Dracula's teleport with other teleports because as a teleport i dont think the Bat one beats any other teleport in the game.
Literally Dracula teleport is hindered by being 32 meters basekit and being only to certain vaulting points (keep in mind im only talking about the teleport, not Bat form in general).
Freddy teleport is hindered by generators but as far as i know, the teleport range is totally global.
Both have different values and should not be that comparable, but the reason Freddy can boast a high win rate is basically because only people who really want to play him do it, and they have tons of practice. Most are basically one tricks. Now its that because of the teleport? Dunno. We could say Nurse has one of the best teleports in the entire game (the reason why is considered the best character) and yet she has very low winrate. I dont think the reason Freddy has high wr is because the teleport.
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@Zakon05 said:
The thing is from what I'm reading is just a list of reasons wolf form is fine. It's only 1/3 of Dracula's kit, it should be a little bit weaker than other killers with similar powers like Demogorgon and Wesker. I'm not even convinced it's worse than Demogorgon's shred in any way other than Demo can zone a bit easier.
I use wolf form frequently and I can't remember the last time I lost a match I didn't intentionally throw because the survivors wanted to pet the doggo, I get use out of it every single game.
It sounds like you just want it to be overpowered like bat form currently is, and anything short of that is too weak.
Also when it comes to trying to use bat form to play around windows/pallets mid-chase, I wasn't even talking about that. I was talking about doing things like shifting bat form → teleporting to a gen you know survivors are working on → shifting back instantly. Or using bat form to teleport to a strong window the survivor is running to in order to cut them off and force them away from it. The fact you can also sometimes use it to play around windows and pallets which are actively being used as part of a chase in a tile is just extra ridiculous.
No, i dont want Dracula to be overpowered. I want Wolf form to be decent and not a tracking tool that does not even track properly when i need to (outside of the chase, not in the chase where literally 99% of the time i know where the survivor is with any killer). And no, Bat form is not overpowered, people are trashing Bat form but in reality most of those things he could already do before the buffs and no one did care about it.
Most of people you see mentioning that Bat form is overpowered because "he can hit me, chase with bat form and reach me in no time!" or "i stun him but he doesnt care because he transforms into bat and keeps chasing me like nothing has happened". Those two are most of the complains but the best part is…he could already do that before the Bat form and shapeshift buffs. But then no one was mentioning Bat, and hell, when people did mention the Bat form they were saying it was kinda undepowered (and with a reason, it was).
You know why it wasnt being mentioned? Because Dracula players were not even caring about the Bat form, as it was not even that good. His teleport was slow as hell for how restricted (distance and teleport points) it is, plus he cannot even see survivors. So no one had a problem with the form. I think the real problem people have is with shapeshift cd but instead of saying that, they just scream "bat form op".
And finally… they way you describe to use the bat form of teleporting and shapeshifting instantly, well.. i think that is what you are supposed to do? There were times before the buffs that the teleport could make me reach faster a place where i think the survivors are, but i wasnt even using it. Why should i bother, if i know that (before the buffs) i could reach my destination and keep being useless because i still cannot see survivors and cannot even shapeshift back for some seconds? There was no point, i did prefer to just walk to it or at least go flying normally, at least i would not be leaving that cloud of smoke in the window alerting survivors that im going there.
Now at the very least i know i have some mobility. Still restricted with movement and places to teleport into, and i still cannot see survivors, BUT i know i can teleport to a window and not be useless after that.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822220#Comment_3822220
Wolf form is fine insofar as it's one of 3 different powers Dracula has.
The lunge is really not that hard to hit with on keyboard + mouse if you have good reflexes. Once you get a feel for how far the initial dash goes, you can also do things like lunge forward as the survivor is rounding a corner, pivot, and then lunge into them for a hit.
Wolf form is great for tracking, you can see scent orbs from pretty long distances and it would be the best form for chasing survivors over open ground if they hadn't unnecessarily buffed his transformation cooldown.
You can tell what direction survivors run after they vault a window, but not if they kept moving. They could stop moving after breaking LoS and try to mindgame. With wolf form you know if they're just committing to a direction or not.
I think it's a bit iffy for you to be saying that I'm playing against bad survivors, when the ones you're playing against continue to keep running while healthy after you've shifted into bat form, instead of immediately walking and trying to hide to throw you off. It's impossible to hear breathing in bat form over all the screeching. It's not impossible to figure out where they went, but I could just use wolf form and the scent orbs for a similar effect, considering I haven't hit them yet and they aren't speeding off from being hit.
As for the part about bat form, what you're describing is the reason why bat form didn't use to be overpowered. Survivors should have counterplay against you. Now it is overpowered with the 2.5 second cooldown since they don't have counterplay. You just show up in the window and insta-shift back. It's basically a THIRD chase power now, it should only be for moving around the map.
The lunge is really not that hard to hit with on keyboard + mouse if you have good reflexes. Once you get a feel for how far the initial dash goes, you can also do things like lunge forward as the survivor is rounding a corner, pivot, and then lunge into them for a hit.
Reflexes has not much to do with the tiny amount of time you have to aim. There is no prediction or trying to bait the survivor to go in a direction so you catch him there. You pounce and go randomly on one of the other directions the survivor can go (or just try to hit him without changing directions) and hope you hit him. On most other cases, Hellfire is far more reliable than the pounce.
Wolf form is great for tracking, you can see scent orbs from pretty long distances and it would be the best form for chasing survivors over open ground if they hadn't unnecessarily buffed his transformation cooldown.
Orbs have literally 12 meters basekit aura. Thats extremely short, i wouldnt call that "pretty long distance", not even just "long distance". Also, really… If in the open field you hit a Pounce is mostly the survivors fault, as they have literally every direction to go to dodge it.
You can tell what direction survivors run after they vault a window, but not if they kept moving. They could stop moving after breaking LoS and try to mindgame. With wolf form you know if they're just committing to a direction or not.
The killer instinct only have 2 pulses basekit. You lose the first one while he jumps and if the survivor moves to break LoS then the second one is lost there. Even with the two pulses, the survivor can stop after the second one and try to mindgame.
I think it's a bit iffy for you to be saying that I'm playing against bad survivors, when the ones you're playing against continue to keep running while healthy after you've shifted into bat form, instead of immediately walking and trying to hide to throw you off. It's impossible to hear breathing in bat form over all the screeching. It's not impossible to figure out where they went, but I could just use wolf form and the scent orbs for a similar effect, considering I haven't hit them yet and they aren't speeding off from being hit.
Sometimes survivors keep running, sometimes they walk, sometimes they vault a window fast and sometimes they do a slow vault trying to mindgame. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt, it depends if i am aware and try to catch them by shifting into another form. And even with that its still miles better than the wolf form and his 4.6m (or 4.8m/s) movement speed while the bat has a perma 6.5m. You can reach them with bat, get baited and go after them again and it will still be faster than chasing them with wolf.
As for the part about bat form, what you're describing is the reason why bat form didn't use to be overpowered. Survivors should have counterplay against you. Now it is overpowered with the 2.5 second cooldown since they don't have counterplay. You just show up in the window and insta-shift back. It's basically a THIRD chase power now, it should only be for moving around the map.
Kinda weird that you mentioned before survivors trying to outplay the bat form but here you dont mention it. Survivor can try to bait you by doing quick and slow vaults, or vault then move slowly. In pallets its worse because the survivor can just stand in one side if the pallet is dropped already and if you transform he can just jump over the pallet and you cannot hit him.
Sorry for all the quotes i did to your post but sometimes i like to discuss about Dracula. Dracula is strong, sure. But the Bat form did need the buffs it got and Wolf is still bad.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822005#Comment_3822005
Wolf form is fine. It's got a lot of great applications in chase. I have no problem landing the pounce unless I'm going for super risky ones. It's great for chasing survivors trying to hold W in chase who haven't been injured yet, since healthy survivors are difficult for the bat form to follow. The tracking is great at any tile with a window that you can't hit over with Hellfire, since you get killer instinct when a survivor vaults that lets you know what direction they're running. The boosted speed from the scent orbs can pressure survivors to drop the pallet earlier than they want.
The reason breaking the pallet is a bit slower than other killers who can break pallets with their power is because it's just one of Dracula's powers.
Vampire form is also fine.
The only problem with Dracula is the random buff they gave his transformation cooldown. He felt great and fluid to play at 5 seconds. At 2.5 you can hit a survivor and then bat form back on top of them immediately, it's stupid.
Wolf form is fine. It's got a lot of great applications in chase. I have no problem landing the pounce unless I'm going for super risky ones. It's great for chasing survivors trying to hold W in chase who haven't been injured yet, since healthy survivors are difficult for the bat form to follow. The tracking is great at any tile with a window that you can't hit over with Hellfire, since you get killer instinct when a survivor vaults that lets you know what direction they're running. The boosted speed from the scent orbs can pressure survivors to drop the pallet earlier than they want.
Im sorry but the Wolf form is far from fine.
If the survivor is holding W, even if its not injured, Bat form is still miles better. You can clearly hear footsteps and see scratch marks, ofc the survivor can try to juke you but you can also catch it much better and faster than the Wolf form. The killer instinct its too short of a duration and most of the time you have clear view of the window and you already see the direction the survivor is running into. The boosted orbs are the only thing that can maybe help you in certain tiles that you are not able to use Hellfire well. Also, if you are hitting most pounces i would say the survivors are not playing very well. The times where Pounce are most likely to hit its if you are in a narrow hallway or if the survivor is just not looking behind them and going in straight line.
Again, Wolf form was marketed as the "tracking tool" and the track is only worth in chase where most of the time you know where the survivor is.
And also i still dont see a reason why it breaks pallets THAT slow when by doing that you are also putting yourself in a position to be stunned instead.
Vampire form is also fine.
On this i agree. Vampire form is mostly fine i think.
The only problem with Dracula is the random buff they gave his transformation cooldown. He felt great and fluid to play at 5 seconds. At 2.5 you can hit a survivor and then bat form back on top of them immediately, it's stupid.
5 seconds never felt great and fluid. If i did transform into Bat to quickly teleport into a window, when i did reach it i still did need to wait more seconds to not even see the survivors until i could transform. Transforming sometimes was more of a burden than a good thing.
Now i can fully utilize shapeshift depending on the situation. Maybe at the end 2.5 seconds is too short? Maybe, but 5 was far too long, and i even say that 4 seconds would also be too long.
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Killers have just stopped using that combo on my survivor games, people did seem to adapt already and the combo doesnt seem to be a problem anymore.
If its your item that goes down, pick it again later and leave it on a corner.
If its a teammate's item they should do it. If they dont, then its not the perk's problem but your teammate's. If you still wanna get the item, just after you reach the radius and you know its a full circle, is not that hard to locate the item inside the radius.
I dont know, i can count the times that combo ######### me and my team with one hand's fingers.
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Im actually kinda amazed on seeing people saying that Wolf form is "good" or even "strong" and sometimes asking to nerf it.
Wolf form is bad. The tracking it has most of the time is useless as only works when you are in chase and you dont need it (mind you, this form was marketed as the "tracking tool" Dracula has) and the Pounce is extremely hard to aim and easy to miss and dodge. And for some reason, if you manage to break a pallet with it (and not getting stunned first), his pallet break animation is one of the longest in the entire game, rivaling with the normal break animation.
Bat form is good but it also did need the buffs. Before touching Dracula, first Wolf foorm needs buffs or adjustments.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820791#Comment_3820791
I did literally explain what can be achieved with the perk. How it helps both new players (know pallets location) and experienced players (know where pallets have been used, making you extend chases by not going into tiles with used pallets already). And you can benefit from everything of this by the perk just virtually existing, with no input from the user.
Except one part can be done with memorisation, and the other part can be done with comms, and can even be achieved as a side effect of other perks like Bond. Windows of Opportunity, by itself, does not increase the potential of what a survivor can achieve in any way, shape or form. Everything that you can do with it, you can do without it.
while completely disregarding that
survivors do the exact same thing with killer perksDo they? Because I'm really only noticing complaints towards new killer perks, or perks that got either directly or indirectly buffed. In other words, when the strength of killer perks actually shifts upwards, there's complaints. When it shifts downwards, survivors don't suddenly take aim at new perks that they didn't have problems with until then.
Except one part can be done with memorisation, and the other part can be done with comms, and can even be achieved as a side effect of other perks like Bond. Windows of Opportunity, by itself, does not increase the potential of what a survivor can achieve in any way, shape or form. Everything that you can do with it, you can do without it.
Bad survivors doesnt rely on memorisation, thats the point of the perk. And being a good survivor doesnt mean you are in a swf with comms. Bond also doesnt let you know dead zones, only if they throw the pallet within your range.
Do they? Because I'm really only noticing complaints towards new killer perks, or perks that got either directly or indirectly buffed. In other words, when the strength of killer perks actually shifts upwards, there's complaints. When it shifts downwards, survivors don't suddenly take aim at new perks that they didn't have problems with until then.
Yes, they totally do. And they also do it with killers, complain about the one that is broken at the moment and then complain about the next one when it is nerfed.
But anyways, WoO is the most picked perk from survivors at least from Nightlight site. And before you say "if pick rate means a perk is good, then why self care was still not nerfed after it had that high pick rate?", there is a big difference. Self care was mostly used on newbies and agreed on that it was a horrible perk on most situations by people who know how to play the game. On this case, WoO is agreed that its really strong on newbies and a very good perk on many experienced people (at least by the experienced people themselves). And yet WoO is competing in pick rate with perks like Lithe, Adrenaline… perks that are known for being extremely good.
Everything points that WoO will be nerfed at the end, and it deserves it.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820745#Comment_3820745
The issue is that if you take a perk that does almost nothing that can't be achieved without it, and you call that 'overpowered', that is arguing that a perk that does something more substantial would be far more overpowered.
This is an issue that happens a lot on these forums where the balancing standard keeps shifting. With every nerf to survivors, the game doesn't get more balanced, forum killers just adjust their standards and find the next most valuable perk and label that 'overpowered'. The benchmark just keeps getting pushed further down.
WoO is not overpowered, and is not even close to it. It's just that the bar for survivor perks has dropped through the floor, especially with additions like Weaving Spiders.
"Almost nothing"? I did literally explain what can be achieved with the perk. How it helps both new players (know pallets location) and experienced players (know where pallets have been used, making you extend chases by not going into tiles with used pallets already). And you can benefit from everything of this by the perk just virtually existing, with no input from the user.
Agree on you that this is what happens with balancing. Of course there will be strong perks that will be the focus of discussion, and when those perks are nerfed then a new perk is suddenly worth to discuss. However, having said this, you did really sound like you are trying to transform this problem into a "us vs them" post favoring survivors, as you did only mention that "when survivors get nerfs, forum killers label a new perk as overpowered" while completely disregarding that survivors do the exact same thing with killer perks. This affects both sides equally, but you did make it sound like its a "killer only" problem.
WoO has been strong since the cooldown was removed, but of course there were stronger perks that got discusses more. I already did point everything the perk can do to help both new and experienced players, and to my surprise i did see other experienced players like Otz have a similar opinion, and keep in mind that im not a "everything Otz says is true" fella, but seeing him having the exact same opinion as me while i though that he was going to put the perk into D or E tier but he did put it on A tier just next to the S tier perks was kinda interesting. The best part is the effect is hella strong and its only a passive that you need no input at all.
So, tldr, helps new players by knowing pallet location, helps experienced players that are already able to extend chases by extending them even more by not going into tiles with broken pallets, and everything of this is just a passive with no cooldown and no input from the player. Perk is extremely strong.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820694#Comment_3820694
WoO is borderline overpowered and needs nerfs.
If that is your standard for 'borderline overpowered', I think what you're aiming for is a game without any survivor perks at all.
Strawman fallacy. In any moment i said that i dont want any survivor perk at all, but you already know that.
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@Buckoben said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820694#Comment_3820694
People also forget to mention this but if you really pay attention while using WoO as the perk has utility, you can tell where a chase is taking place if you pay attention to the HUD and see a pallet get dropped you know where at least a singular survivor and the killer are eliminating the need to run perks like empathy or bond (this fact alone should be enough to get WoO nerfed due to it outclassing those perks), people really underrate WoO like when people really underrated Dead Hard and something tells me with how loud everyone is about it not needing a nerf. it needs a nerf.
Honestly i didnt even think about that… yeah, it also helps to know where the chase is being done actually. Another point to WoO i suppose.
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Its kinda interesting to see people always try to embrace the "it only helps new players to know where pallets are" route to not get WoO nerfed, while in reality it also helps 5k hours players by knowing where their non-swf teammates did drop the pallets. Unless with hours played you get some kind of omnipresence and know exactly what are the killer and the chased survivor doing on every situation (dont think thats the case, because otherwise old Eruption would still have the incapacitated effect as players would knew exactly the moment the killer is going to hit the survivor and stop repairing the gen to not get incapacitated) then it also helps people with thousands of hours, and a lot.
Fun fact: recently Otz made a new "killer and survivor perks tier list". When i started the video i though that probably WoO would be for him some kind of D or E tier perk, but to my surprise he did put on the A category, just the next perk after the S perks, as a very very very strong perk.
The reasons? Exactly for what i said. Yes it helps newer players to know the pallet spawns, but it also helps everyone to know the pallets that have been thrown and destroyed already. You get chased, go into a loop tile that you know it spawns a pallet, but guess what? it was used already and the killer hits you. If you were wounded already then you go down and hooked, a mistake that knowing the pallet situation beforehand you could have prevented and extended the chase.
WoO is borderline overpowered and needs nerfs.