ZaKzan
ZaKzan
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@ILoveDemo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1642238#Comment_1642238
But this has easy counterplay, you don't even need perks for that:
Ds, don't Tunnel
Ub, don't slug
Dh, wait before you lunch
Why should they Nerf this perks?
undying is easy counterplay, just do bones.
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now you know how killers feel about ds unbreakable and dead hard
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gen sounds are now effectively quiet for the killer, despite that tooltips while loading the game specifically tell you that repairing gens causes a lot of noise and they can be used to mask healing sounds. There are so many sound issues with this game and the devs found the time and resources to completely add new sounds to the game instead of fixing the years-old now sound bugs.
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as an individual, you are not meant to win as survivor, you need to come together and work as a team to succeed in survivor.
You know why it's so painful for solo survivor? Because the devs give survivors every chance they can to 1v1 the killer. There is no concept of team in survivors because this game caters to survivors so much. You don't need to be that good and you don't need to work with your team to do well as a survivor.
It's the fact that people want to 1v1 the killer that this game is so unbalanced and unfun at higher levels of play. The killer must resort to underhanded tactics in order to win at high levels due to the survivors being so strong at high levels.
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@SloppyKnockout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1634849#Comment_1634849
I didn't say "Scott Jund said". I said get Scott to set up a playdate with you and Zubat. He'll show you how there is no counter to a good Deathslinger.
But okay - put words in my mouth. Nice strawman, kiddo.
That challenge is the stupidest thing ever and there's a good reason no one has accepted his challenge. Survivors, by design, aren't supposed to 1v1 killers. What does that even mean anyway? Survivors are meant to waste the time of the killer, not beat the killer.
We can assemble a survivor team made up of survivors that are comparable to the skill level of zubat and he will get dominated every single game if he plays a bad killer like deathslinger. The fact that people think that a survivor must be able to outrun or beat a killer on a cat and mouse game where there's 4 survivors and 1 killer is the single greatest problem this game has in term of balance. This is a PvP game, but it's also a team game, from the survivor perspective. It's also odd that in talking about balance, Scott uses the context of one of the best killer players in the game vs an average survivor group because good survivor groups are rare and I guess survivors go up against top tier killers every game.
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Most maps are survivor sided, it's just that some are so survivor sided that it is physically impossible to win as killer unless the survivors are really bad or you have a really good killer / get lucky
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@PrincessPoop said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1620585#Comment_1620585
Nope, in practice new ruin is still better. Again old ruin was only effective at low- mid ranks as good survivors and red rank swfs can hit skill checks pretty reliably so gens were still popping quickly. Old ruin was only effective against low ranks who would miss every skillcheck, gen tap, or run around the map for 10 mins looking for the totem. So again ruin didn’t give you much early game pressure against decent survivors... just run corrupt intervention it’s way better. Also again new ruin synergizes with other perks much better than old ruin would have. It rewards killers for playing smart and creating interesting builds and is overall much healthier for the game than old ruin was. So yes In practice it’s better, I’ve had much more luck playing with it than old ruin and it’s more fun to use and face.
No. You cannot say that ruin was ran by 80% of killers and then say it was only punishing for low rank survivors. You don't seem to understand what exactly I mean.
Old ruin would chase survivors off of gens to find / do the totem. The new ruin doesn't. Also, you're framing your argument in a vacuum, devs haven't just changed ruin, they've also removed infinites / added other perks / added other killers / redesigned many maps / redesigned toolboxes / redesigned how skill checks work on gens. The fact that you're getting more luck catching survivors now vs the time when we had old ruin absolutely has no bearing on the relative strength of the changes, because the game has changed significantly from that time.
When the devs changed old ruin, they had to redesign how the game rewards gatekeeper points because the first 2 gens go extremely fast now. It wasn't common to see the first two gens go before your first hook with old ruin. When they changed old ruin, it had such an effect on the game that they've almost had to redesign how the entire game works with how gens are completed. That's how strong old ruin was. Less people now run ruin. If more people are running a perk before a change and less people are running it after the change, chances are that it's become much less powerful.
A very good video to get an understanding of just how powerful old ruin was, as it explains when killers are weakest in the game.
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@BigTimeGamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1620789#Comment_1620789
######### is with the trend in comparing trapper to spirit? did tru3 or someone say this???
Trapper has to setup traps, he has to plan out where he expects survivors to go, he has to take a RISK. Survivors, once they realize its trapper, can have someone easily keep track of him and disarm his traps as he places them and leaves. Spirit can stand still and simply wait to see what you do.
a. You stay at the loop - She phases when she sees this.
b. You try and leave the loop - She phases and hits you unless you have another loop; process repeats.
Trying and using the metaphor with coin toss and spirit on trapper is beyond wrong and disingenuous. I don't know if it was a streamer or someone who started this, but whoever said it is being a clown.
Except that your options are much more than that. You've just revealed spirit's weakness in your assumption that there's only two choices to make. How does she stop you from trying to leave the loop and then doubling back to vault the pallet? After all, if you travel a certain distance away from the pallet, she has to phase to catch up to you. You use this to run back and then vault the pallet. There are also many other ways to outplay her, especially using windows and pallets that are out of sight of the spirit to make her think you vaulted them. The spirit has to react to your actions, otherwise she loses her power and is an m1 killer for a long period of time. Hexy's tournament shows that she has counterplay, even the strongest nurse players have some counterplay
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@BigTimeGamer said:
Counterplay is being able to take given information and attempting to play around them. Spirit is a coin toss, Trapper you can disarm and play around how he traps. One has counterplay, One is a gamble
This game revolves around gambles. You gamble when you take an unsafe hook, you gamble when you start working on a hex totem, you gamble when you run any loop with a LoS blocking wall.
Since you can't check every blade of grass for traps, you gamble when trapper chases you into grass. What you are talking about is just the illusion of counterplay. The fact that spirit turns every tile into a truly balanced 50/50 coin toss for either side and she's seen as unbalanced tells volumes as to how unbalanced this game is in the favor of survivors and the tiles that survivors can run.
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
It was fun to watch but I wasnt really taking it seriously. The point system was hilariously favored towards survivors.
And Nurse despite breaking the game entirely is the only killer that can actually keep up with a team that just, y'know does gens. Game needs and entire rebalance from the ground up before its e-sports viable. It's not designed for it.
I commend Hexy for all the effort he put it though. And Dowsey and him being on the mic for that insane amount of time without losing it.
DBD is hilariously favored towards survivors, so the point system reflected that.
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@adalesmo said:
It makes no sense to balance killers around a strong 4-man SWF when a strong 4-man SWF is exceedingly rare, and neglects the current situation with solo queuers. The devs have repeatedly shown that, statistically, well over 2 survivors are killed each game - it's usually closer to 3. So what you're saying is likely not a statistically significant issue.
Error in logic.
If you think nothing is wrong with SWF, and you also think that messing with SWF would have significant impact on the game, you are making an error in logic, since those two positions are diametrically opposed.
The most common SWF teams are 2 man and 3 man, not 4 man, as you correctly pointed out. This means that one to two other players are not SWF, and those players are the ones that are likely killed. Hopefully you have the critical thought to understand that this is an obvious problem with reporting kill rates and how they can be inflated by SWF.
As you can see here, the issue with SWF is twofold, both on killers and solo survivors.
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@PrincessPoop said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1618973#Comment_1618973
Nope you’re wrong. New ruin is stronger especially with high mobility killers. Old ruin couldn’t completely regress a gen that was at 95%... new ruin can. Old ruin wasn’t even an issue for good survivors because they could reliably hit great skillchecks. New ruin does it’s job as long as the killer is doing theirs. Pair new ruin with tinkerer or undying or surveillance and it becomes crazy strong. You get pressure through the entirety of the match rather than just a little bit at the beginning. New ruin is only “bad” if your playing a trap based killer that requires set up time, or if you just can’t end chases quickly. Old ruin was just a worse corrupt intervention, new ruin can be extremely deadly.
Old ruin was effective at the point of the match where the killer has the least amount of pressure. New ruin is effective at the point of the match where the killer has the most amount of pressure. Yes, on paper, obviously new ruin is better, but in practice it isn't. If ruin wasn't a hex totem, you could argue that new ruin is effectively stronger, but as the match goes on, the chance of ruin being cleansed increases, so while new ruin is stronger towards late game, it has less of a chance achieving full effectiveness. Making the argument that new ruin is stronger is just wrong because that does not reflect the current usage of it nor does it reflect the intentions of the devs when they changed it. They changed it specifically to be weaker. This is the same reason why NOED is such a weak perk. Late game builds are not strong because of the unbalanced nature of the game, usually the game is decided way before late game. This is also why corrupt intervention is such a strong perk and widely used, as it is essentially the exact opposite of new ruin or NOED. You sacrifice a perk slot to get 120 seconds of better map pressure at the start of the game, this two minutes of increased pressure is enough to significantly increase win rates / killer effectiveness.
If you want to understand why early game pressure is so strong for killer, just play a lot of oni or billy. The faster you locate and down your first survivor, the faster you can locate the second survivor while the first is on hook and reduce gen progression by 300%. New ruin requires survivors not to be on gens in order for them to regress. Notice how after ruin was changed, it is now normal for 2 gens to be done before the first hook and devs had to change how emblems work to make up for how fast gens get done now.
Your explanation just doesn't stand up to the evidence we have.
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@MrDardon said:
Those tournament Survivors are
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VJJRHN76N6S1/image.png
No, but seriously. There is a very small chance to get those Survivors in casual Matches, so it's not really realistic to say that Survivors are op if they are so rare in casual Games.
i find it amusing that people like to bring this up and the only difference between these elite survivors and regular red rank survivors is that these elite survivors know how to run killers.
You don't need to know how to run killers to in order to dumpster on a killer. Start of match, split up, do gen, killer finds you, press w and shift. This will get you to rank 1 survivor and keep you at that rank, you will win more games than lose even solo.
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@BaldursGate2 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1618896#Comment_1618896
You don't need any meta perks, you just feel much safer if you have them. Dumb actions of your fellow survivors are an additional problem.
Not really, I ran DS for a while. It's not a good perk, especially solo. At high ranks most killers don't tunnel to begin with, and the other perks I run are very solo oriented, empathy to make sure you're never spotted by BBQ and to max out efficiency at the early game, BT to use your team mates as meat shields and guaranteeing pips, IW to help sneak past killers, and dead hard for whenever you make mistakes. It's a very strong solo build.
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@PrincessPoop said:
I mean... they made ruin stronger sooooo
No, ruin isn't stronger. The fact that old ruin was in effect at the very start of the game made it much stronger. The fact that killers have to physically chase survivors off gens in order to get ruin value makes it much weaker.
If you're looking at a spreadsheet and looking directly at values and effects, old ruin was weaker. If you actually play the game and understand the pacing of the game, old ruin was much stronger. Old ruin had an indirect effect of allowing the killer to find survivors a little quicker by encouraging them to try for great skill checks, this alone makes it much stronger.
It's probably best if you don't listen to the devs when they talk about the strength of things in this game. These are the same people that said clown was a very strong killer and that the playerbase just didn't understand his strength.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1618870#Comment_1618870
locker DS and DS-Unbreakable are problematic, but I agree the perk should remain for the sake of game health. Particularly to make solo actually bearable.
You don't need DS and unbreakable for solo play.
This build gives me about a 70% survival rate at rank 1 as solo survivor. I only have about 150 hours in survivor, I'm not very good and I do not run any items or addons, preferring to find them in the trial. If I ran a medkit every game or most games I could probably push my survival rate to 80-90% solo.
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SWF increases the efficiency of the survivors in the SWF group. They can coordinate perks, and they can trust one another to do certain actions, such as complete a generator and then save the one on a hook, they know that the other person isn't going to just abandon them, and they can make game defining decisions based on that.
It artificially inflates player skill, and it increases the chances of winning regardless of the goal of the SWF. There's a reason why there's such a disparity between solo players and SWF players. This is the reason. SWF increases efficiency. It doesn't matter the skill level of the survivors, they are better because they utilize SWF.
The reason why SWF is not going to be changed is because it is so widely used and because it effects the survivor experience so drastically in this game. People will tell you that SWF doesn't matter yet in the same breath say that limiting SWF would kill the game.
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just because you get unhooked and then run into the face of the killer doesn't mean you were tunneled, you just made a bad decision, or if you jumped on a gen or tried healing right next to the killer. Not tunneling doesn't mean that the unhooked survivor gets X amount of time grace before the killer can hit them for it to not be tunneling.
Tunneling is specific targeting of a player at the expense of targeting other players / throwing the game. A killer generally has to go out of their way to actually tunnel. Tunneling also isn't against the rules and I suggest you learn to live with it because people are going to do it no matter how much you don't like it.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1612157#Comment_1612157
The flashlights have never been like this before I've played since release, these new graphics have zoomed in on the survivor perspective slightly and the spot to aim is different than it ever was
Yes. What happened was that originally the flashlight beams came out at the middle of your screen. There was a bug that made them come out just right of center. Now they come out at the middle of your screen again. The bug was fixed, it's just that everyone got used to the bug because it took so long for the devs to fix it.
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@Name_Unavailable said:
They change it to be a bugged... Things should not work perfectly in this game. Never!
the opposite
flashlights were bugged, flashlights were bugged, the devs actually fixed them. The issue is that the devs just took such a long time fixing them that everyone got used to the bugged flashlights.
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@MojoTheFabulous said:
Probably because we already have a free currency in the form of the Shards. Granted it doesn't give you the ability to buy everything but it counts for something.
so the obvious question to ask here is that why aren't there iri shards in the free version of the battle pass
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the absolute worst addon design was the billy one that gave you movespeed when a flashlight shines on you. You really don't need to play this game for that long to understand that the only viable times a survivor is shining a light at you is when you are stunned in some way / locked in an animation and if a survivor is shining a light on you in the middle of a chase, it's pretty much a free hit.
I truly do wonder if some of the people that design this game even actually play it. The basic design of this addon isn't that bad, though. It's just tuned up too much. Maybe something like 16 meters but only revealed while in the slam animation, so maybe like 1-2 seconds would be good, or something like 5 meters for 6 seconds so you aren't as disoriented when you slam next to a survivor that loses LoS immediately and it kind of acts like I'm all ears.
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Reduce map size, increase pallet spawns, reduce pallet strength making most pallets unsafe. These three changes would vastly increase the amount of skill that goes into a particular loop and counterplaying what the survivor / killer does.
Quite a few killers would need rebalanced, and probably all the meta perks. Gen times would probably need reduced too, but this would result in a much fairer game. Maybe not completely balanced, but it would increase the amount of situations where the skill of the survivor / killer plays a pivotal role in whether the chase continues or ends at a specific pallet loop.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1611888#Comment_1611888
I'm just going to say that if you repeatedly say you are going against tournament squads almost every game, even if they are simply above average, you create an echo chamber with your viewers where its a never ending loop of thinking you are going against this, when most of the time its just a standard solid team.
The issue with this game is that on the right map against the right killer, a below average team that only knows how to split up and hold m1 will take out above average killers with ease. I watch a lot of your videos, and one issue I see with them is that although you talk about killers and killer balance, you seem to gloss over the fact that good survivor teams will decimate the strongest killer players playing the strongest killers, so you talk about game balance in the context of some of the best killers in the game vs relatively less skilled survivors. This is particularly highlighted by a recent video you did centering more around deathslinger. You imply that deathslinger can be too strong in the right hands, but then admit that strong survivors will just destroy killers.
I bring this up because it shows a disconnect of the true balance of the game. Tru3 isn't facing tournament squads every game like he says, but he's facing decent survivors that just dumpster on him because survivors don't need to be as good as the killer in order to do that. He's mostly just rationalizing his losses, but that doesn't mean there's no truth to what he says. I suppose getting mad at 'tournament sqauds' is a little healthier than getting mad at severe balance issues this game has that are present in every single match.
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BHVR released the week old build on the PTB for a psychological effect. They intentionally released a poorer version of the game / killer so that people could go from the PTB to live and be like 'wow they changed so much'
It produces the illusion of being productive. You initially release an inferior version of your product and then you 'improve' upon it, releasing the up to date version at a later date to improve the mood of your customers, and to encourage more positive reviews.
This marketing strategy is most successfully utilized by Paradox, they release partial games for a low price and then offer many DLCs to fix the games. The problem with this strategy for BHVR is that they don't do any in-house testing to iron out bugs, so they end up releasing a bug riddled mess that hasn't been properly tested, and then they compound this by taking an extraordinarily long time to fix these bugs. This is not even mentioning the balance issues the game has.
I really don't know what their issue is, they either have the wrong people developing this game, or they have too few of them, or both.
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His addons are really strong. People haven't learned how to take advantage of his poor turning nor the fact that he can't swing on the first rush / can't swing immediately after slamming. Once people learn how to 360 him and run towards where he slams and once his addons get inevitably nerfed, he'll be much weaker.
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all PvP games are competitive at their core
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/189801/how-bhvr-rebalances-strong-tiles
Strong tiles are fine to have, the problem is when the strong tiles all chain into each other.
I have the most fun, killer or survivor, playing around unsafe tiles. You have to strategically run to the larger side and as killer you have to prevent this, and when the pallet is thrown there is also counterplay, even though it's more killer sided, if the killer makes a bad read the survivor can run free.
Having jungle gym into safe pallet in the middle and then another jungle gym with killer shack or cow tree nearby is the most god awful design in this game.
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@TheWarNung said:
Folks: it's still day 1, and Blight seems like a much higher skill-level killer than BHVR's standard fare M1 menagerie. Let's all take some deep breaths and wait a couple weeks to see how we all develop his skills.
His problem is explicitly that he's largely an M1 killer. It's also not day 1, he's already been out for a few weeks on ptb
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@Aven_Fallen said:
How many games did you play to come to your well-founded conclusion? 3? 4?
Give it a week and you will know how the Killer is played.
People have already been playing him for a couple weeks on the PTB and not enough was changed to make him any better. He's not a strong killer and people already know how to play against him. His turning radius during lethal rush is too restrictive, and he cannot attack after a slam, which severely limits the amount of places he can even set up a lethal rush.
It's not very hard to understand how trash his power is. It's mostly just a mobility power, it cannot be effectively used as an offensive power. The only way to utilize his power is between tiles where there is enough objects to bounce off of but not too much as to put him into a position where he slams right next to a survivor and can't do anything.
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maps are too large and tiles are too safe. The problem with your argument is that it doesn't address why killer powers need to be as strong as they are. There's a reason why m1 killers with no mobility are so trash at this game. There's also a reason why splitting up and doing gens counters every killer in the game and counters the best players in the game.
You somehow think that the survivor game revolves around chases, when the objective of survivors is to do gens and then escape. You just have the wrong viewpoint on the objective of the game.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1604844#Comment_1604844
This is outright false. Legitimate reports with all the required evidence are taken very seriously by BHVR.
keyword is required evidence. They don't actively investigate on their own, you have to do their work for them. So if you're not recording every second you are playing DBD, cheaters walk free. That's why there are so many cheaters in this game in the first place, because the requirements to report someone are so high that the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't even try.
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looks like they got away with it. Don't expect much from DBD customer service, they don't really actively seek out and investigate cheating / farming / etc.
You'll find that kind of thing is pretty common in this game because the rules aren't actively enforced and you have to record every second of your game to even have a chance of getting something done about it.
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@oxygen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1603878#Comment_1603878
If you consider bodyblocking and flashlight blinding to be "toxic" that's not really surprising to begin with.
Bodyblocking is directly encouraged by the game by protection hits and all the perks that involve them, and the entire purpose of flashlights is to blind the killer.
except you ignore pretty much the entirety of the rest of my post. It's the fact that survivors are capable of doing those things without any risk. The game gives them enough chances and enough time to get away. Obviously the whole reason why you get blood points for protection hits is that they're supposed to confer risk on the one taking the hit, but this is not the case. It boils down to risk, punishment, and reward.
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@SleepyWillo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1603703#Comment_1603703
Though you make some good points you lost me pretty early on:
"People like to say there are toxic players on both sides, but really there isn't. If you see a toxic killer, chances are they are that way because of survivors."
You dont think toxic survivors are made by toxic killers? I never played with DS until crossplay (aside from Laurie adept achievement) due to the amount of camping and tunneling crossplay killers. I'm apparently toxic because I run this perk. But I wouldnt have run it if not for tunneling/camping killers. I've only ever teabagged/BMd a killer if they BM first - teabagging pig/GF or tunneling/camping.
TLDR: To say only toxic killers are made by toxic survivors is false. Toxicity is on both sides and both sides feed into the other.
Not really. Survivor isn't challenging and frustrating enough for killers to really add fuel to the fire. I play survivor at high red ranks solo and most of my games I'm mad at the other survivors rather than the killer. My last 100 games at rank 1 have had 5 moris and 3 tunnelers / campers. I very rarely run into toxic killers, and if they are being toxic, they are ruining their game. You just don't get killers that want to intentionally ruin their game at the highest ranks. It's part of my point. Survivors can be toxic while also easily escaping. Not saying there's absolutely none, but they're few and far inbetween that the few games per 100 that I get aren't that big of a deal.
Meanwhile, like I said, within the first 2-3 killer games I get toxic survivors at rank 1. When I was in green and purple ranks I did run into quite a few toxic killers, though. It just gets rarer as you go up the ranks, the inverse is true with survivors. I don't start my killer sessions wanting to be a jerk to survivors, but survivors quickly change my mood. I imagine this is true for many killers.
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@Skelemania said:
Don't feel bad for him. Games like that just give him more content so that he continues to make a living off of playing a video game. Have some perspective.
Lucky for him that he gets paid to take the abuse. Most people that play this game just take it for free.
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Games are too easy for survivors at high ranks, once you reach a certain level it's just child's play to run any killer at any skill level in the game. Hexy's tournament even showed this. It's just not a fun game at high levels, and survivors that reach higher levels of play need something to keep them occupied, so they figure out ways to abuse the killer, since wins are too easy. Nothing is done to help keep this in check.
People like to say there are toxic players on both sides, but really there isn't. If you see a toxic killer, chances are they are that way because of survivors. There's just nothing a killer can do against survivors, and survivors are allowed free reign to rub their superiority in the face of killers. The two things killers can do against survivors is camp and tunnel, but those two things are severely limited due to perks like BT and DS. Meanwhile survivors can bodyblock, they can teabag, they can relentlessly blind the killer, they can hold the game hostage, and they can do this all while effortlessly doing the gens and opening the gates because the game gives them the time to do so, there is no sense of beating the clock.
I can go hours and hours playing survivor games with no toxic killers. It only takes two or three games as killer to find a toxic survivor lobby, that then sours my mood and makes me play more ruthlessly as killer. There's just nothing the killer can do to survivors that's really toxic without sacrificing the game as a result. I think that's the major problem. Survivors can be super toxic and do this to one of the strongest killer players in the game while also doing their objectives. Most of the time if you choose to tunnel or camp survivors as killer, you're likely not going to 4k.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1603255#Comment_1603255
An experienced survivor versus an experienced PH is still a win for the killer. With PH the most if the situations you are found in are a bad one.
If you are running to a filler if you run through the pallet you either A eat the range or B dodge and eat the m1. A jungle gym if you go and take the windis vault you A eat the range or B dodge and eat the m1. The only safe-ish structures are tractors and other inclines on the map as the range cant bend upwards.
If you prethrow hes gonna shoot you with the range.
Considering this isn't a 1v1 pvp game and that it's in fact a 4v1 pvp game, the killer should ideally be around 4 times stronger than an individual survivor. There's a reason why the strongest strategy to ensure a survivor win is splitting up and doing gens. The point of an individual survivor is to maximize the time wasted by the killer chasing them while the other survivors do gens. Teamwork is the core of survivor gameplay.
Pyramid head ranged attack isn't guaranteed, it has a DPI slowdown like the deathslinger's does, it's very hard to aim, that's why the only way ph even hits his ranged attack is if survivors are stuck in an animation or otherwise stunned.
Killers that can circumvent or limit the effects of throwing safe pallets down are generally seen as the strongest on this game, and those that can't are seen as the weakest. Clown has one of the strongest anti loop powers in this game, but he's trash because there's not much he can do once the pallet has been thrown. The killer needs to be strong and the killer needs to be able to catch survivors, this is not a 1v1 game, it's a 4v1 game. I don't think many players realize the strength in numbers nor do they realize that in order for the game to be balanced, survivors have to be able to be caught by the killer. In fact it's more than that, considering it takes 12 hooks to fully kill all the survivors.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1603231#Comment_1603231
Regardless of the fact if hes close enough to m1 I've seen PH use the ranged. If you ever go against an experienced PH you will see the unwinnable situations you are put into. This killer has been bs since day one. I was disappointed with his release.
Yes, if you go against a more experienced player than yourself, you can expect to lose. You are seeing this interaction in a vacuum, and an experienced survivor would do things so that they aren't put into that situation in the first place. The very obvious and simple thing to do is to throw down pallets early and then play them until the PH kicks them. Experienced survivors tend to not put themselves into positions that make them vulnerable to killers at unsafe loops unless they absolutely have to. You have to look at the game from a bigger picture than just one interaction.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1603174#Comment_1603174
No even if they continue to fake the psychological effect is there. Also who says the PH will stop faking and start committing.
Like I laid out, all you have to do is look behind you and see how close the PH is to you. You seem to think this interaction is static, but it's not. If the PH is close enough to you to m1, they are also close enough to stun, barring some circumstances like with corners. If they are not close enough to you to m1, you can continue running. The PH also has to be within a certain distance to even attempt this juke. Watching a good killer do this to a bad survivor very obviously makes it look unbalanced, but the interaction is a little more nuanced.
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@xenotimebong said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1603174#Comment_1603174
How can they exploit it? There’s no real downside to faking the power and if they try to call your bluff by vaulting you just use the power. Fake it as much as you want, the survivors can’t really do anything about it either way. Unless you only fake and never actually use your power, but I’m not sure why anyone would actually do that.
Watching the best players in the game play vs actually doing it yourself makes a load of difference. In order to get an M1, you have to be at a certain distance away from the survivor, this distance just so happens to be about the distance you need in order to stun the killer. If PH is doing this to you and he's very close you to you, you can just stun him, otherwise if he M1s you, he's not going to hit you.
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@bluedusef said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1603155#Comment_1603155
thats the main issue. you can not drop the pallet and it dont matter as he dosent get penalized for cancel into an M1 straight away. You can just fake using your power constantly and just m1
if you fake constantly you create a pattern, a pattern that good survivors can exploit.
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anything that interrupts the mindless survivor pathing of looping, throwing down a safe pallet, then beelining to the next pallet loop is unfun.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1602743#Comment_1602743
Most of the casual killers I've seen are in green/purple ranks already. The casual survivors are all in red now because of the rank reset change awhile back. The red rank killers who are really, really bad are there because they play Spirit/Freddy like a bunch of nerds and 4K the casual survivors with their PGTW meta builds. Or they play Legion because it's really easy to pip as Legion.
If old rank reset was brought back, most people would be at the rank they need to be at until nearing the next rank reset. Then all you'd have to do is fix the matchmaking algorithm to avoid reds being matched with greens/purples as much. SWFs with mixed ranks make this hard.
The fact that you think Badham of all maps is the most balanced of the maps is just sad. I don't know how you came to that conclusion or which Pepega streamer said that. Badham's got a lot going for it for survivor, not just the school. It's got the house of pain, shack, a handful of really safe force-breaks, the double story house to proc balanced landing, ridiculously long fences sometimes, anti-Huntress/Deathslinger objects, its size, and the school. We'll see how it is tomorrow. Probably just worse on console and a force-DC because frames.
And no, balancing DbD is a much harder process. The fact that no one can agree on one aspect of how DbD should be balanced should tell you that much. People can't even agree on what the actual win condition is for either side. Some say kills/escapes, some say pips, some say bloodpoints. TF2, like most shooters, has a much simpler job of needing mostly number tweaks to specific things, mostly weapons. DbD has some number tweaks here and there that could be adjusted, but more often than not it's hard to actually gauge what the problem is, if there even is one, in any given match. By balancing one aspect, you could easily break another in the process.
Besides, I feel like most people play pubs in TF2 anyway yeah? I don't really think of pros or esports when I hear about it whenever it crops up. Most of the time it's just good players doing crazy stuff against baddies in pubs and getting away with it. Sound a little familiar eh? Even if DbD isn't nearly as exciting.
Badham is one of the more balanced maps in the game, this is the view of most good players of the game, more importantly OhTofu, who has about 7000 hours in the game and has been playing it since it came out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdOX6UVrDY4I can tell by the way you talk about ranking that you don't have much to offer in terms of what balance means from both points of view. It's quite telling how limited your knowledge is of the game. I'm just going to leave it at that because there's not much point in discussing the nuances of the game and game design philosophy with you especially because you seem to not understand a single thing I say, forcing me to repeat myself.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1602632#Comment_1602632
I'll keep posting this because it's by far the best way to balance a game, and a game that's 13 years old that still has more players playing than DBD shows that the design philosophy is tried and true.
Or, you know, it's a game that spawned a lot of memes and community content back in the day, went F2P a long time ago, and has real economic gains via trading. It's also much easier to balance a game that has simpler, clear-cut mechanics and win conditions. I think very little people think of balance first when they think TF2. Ridiculous comparison.
Map RNG is bad but it goes both ways. One map can have all deadzones, and then the next match on the same map it can spawn everything. Outliers like Haddonfield, Ormond, and Fractured Cowshed definitely need looked at, but most maps are fine.
And who cares about the hardcore competitive people? There are so, so many other multiplayer games that try to be competitive and end up flopping in that department. If they want a hardcore competitive experience, they should go to the dozens upon dozens of other games that claim to offer what they're looking for. Or try and get into tournaments like the recent one Hexy just held.
The playerbase isn't large enough to have a separate competitive mode, and I don't want to deal with the idiots that sit there and complain in DMs when something doesn't go their way. We already have enough idiots that complain and take the current ranking system seriously. Good players know they're good already, they don't need a number to tell them that.
Again, it's not about being a hardcore competitive game, it's about making the game fun and accessible to everyone, not just people who want to play hardcore or people who want to just play casually. That's why this video is important. The way to balance the game for all levels of play is to balance it towards the people that break the game, with some compromise to the other players. That way the game is balanced at all levels of play and you don't have players who break the game absolutely bullying the normal players like you do on DBD.
I really don't know why you only see these suggestions as catering just to high level play. These suggestions are specifically designed to balance the game at all levels of play to make the game fair for everyone that plays it.
Most maps are not fine, most maps are broken. Even the most balanced map in the game, bedham, has the school which is god awfully survivor based.
The game doesn't need a competitive mode, it just needs to separate the skilled players from the non-skilled players. Although ideally if the game was properly balanced around skilled play, non-skilled players would be able to play against skilled players and still have fun. That's the beauty of balancing the game around high level play, you don't get people who can just abuse mechanics and bully lower skilled players.
DBD is much more simpler than TF2, there's hundreds of weapons spread across 12 classes in TF2. In DBD you just have survivors vs killers and then killer powers and perks. The video I posted is mostly talking about game balance and it uses TF2 as a perfect example of good game balance, it's really not about the game itself, it's the design philosophy that was implemented in it that has stood the test of time. DBD has a player retention problem because it becomes very unfun at high levels of play.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1601993#Comment_1601993
"Gen rushed" was in quotes for a reason. It's a dumb term.
The map RNG can be bad but it can go both ways. Recently I've been seeing dead tile after dead tile as both killer and survivor, even on maps like Ormond. Couple that with teammates throwing down pallets like hot cakes and you're gonna have a bad time.
And no, I think Wraith is one of the few killers that can't do anything to keep up pressure on a half-decent team, along with Trapper on most maps. I did say most, not all, yeah? Pig/Legion are the bare minimum I think you can get away with, and even then you have to have the survivors mess up here and there to really get your value. And good luck against good SWFs.
The problem (and paradoxically the good thing) about this game is that the vast majority of people are just bad at the game. If I go and play Apex or Siege or Spellbreak (good game BTW) consistently, I'm probably going to have the vast majority of my matches end in failure (even if it's hard fought here and there) because people are just really good at those games. DbD is the only multiplayer game I've played recently where most of the matches are actually pretty chill no matter what role you play.
I think Umbra said it best a couple of days ago: If the game is balanced for the good players, especially the good survivor squads, the game will be basically unplayable for the casual player. And I tend to agree here. I think the balance, outside of a few specific killers and perks/addons (and solo buffs like a totem counter) is about where it needs to be right now.
And no, people play Freddy and Spirit because they're braindead easy to use and they're afraid of getting dumpster'd by SWFs while learning a mechanical killer. Even though these days you can just dodge people who are all on the same platform and get another game in less than a minute if you're really that motivated.
it is far too easy to chain strong tiles to run a killer for enough time to win the game. Chases last far too long. A proper ranking system will keep the stronger players playing against other stronger players. The game is very unbalanced and is heavily survivor sided. Chases last much too long, maps are much too large, and there's too many safe pallets that don't offer any type of counterplay. It's not a surprise that the killers that can circumvent strong tiles with their power are seen as strong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCwI'll keep posting this because it's by far the best way to balance a game, and a game that's 13 years old that still has more players playing than DBD shows that the design philosophy is tried and true. It allows casual players to have fun as well as hardcore players. Catering to just one part of the playerbase leads to imbalances in the other parts.
People are bad at this game because they have absolutely no incentive to get good. If bad players were kept at rank 20, they would either stay at that rank and play casually or they would learn the game and improve their ranks. Giving players participating trophies is a poor way to gauge their skill. Also, despite what the devs say, it's not that terribly difficult to balance this game. You just have to either play the game and reach a high level to understand the nuance of it, or you have to take advice from people who do, the devs simply don't do this, they don't play their game at a high level and they are generally smug about the balance of this game, thinking they know better than the top players that are able to break it. Understanding what each side must do to either prolong a chase or end it is the key to gauging player skill. Relying on spreadsheets is a good way to make a game 'balanced' but feel like utter crap playing, it's the difference between losing and feeling like there was nothing you could do to win, and losing and feeling like you just didn't play well and learning from your mistakes.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Most of my games are 3-4K's on any given killer, almost guaranteed on Freddy/Spirit (even with a dumb mad grit build), less so on mechanical killers I'm unfamiliar with, much less so if I get tilted by framey maps.
Most of my games as survivor are 2-4K. Sometimes we'll get the odd 3 man/4 man escape but usually it's because the killer is in high purple/green ranks against 4 red survivors. There are a LOT of Freddy/Spirit players around, especially Freddy. Kinda disgusting honestly.
I think if people perfectly split on gens and the first chase lasts too long, the killer will lose. But most games don't go that way. If you're getting "gen rushed" as killer vs solo survivors, your chases are lasting too long. If you're getting "gen rushed" as killer vs SWFs, you're not applying enough team pressure. There are very few killers that have 0 way of applying team pressure. L2P
There is an algorithm that determines the strength of tiles in the game. Each tile has a certain value, and every map has the same maximum value set. The problem with this algorithm is that it does not take into account adjacent tile strength, so you can have a jungle gym go into cow tree go into shack and then a junk tile into an L wall T wall. This single chain is enough to run a killer for 5 gens easy. This algorithm can also swing pallets from 8 to 16 on some maps.
You understand the underlying problem of why killers get gen rushed, but you fail to understand why the chases take too long. Most of the pallets in most maps are safe pallets, meaning that you HAVE to kick them, if you are not kicking them, that means you are downing the survivor in another way like with hatchets or the survivor is not playing the tile and forcing you to kick it.
The reason why people are playing spirit and freddy is because both of these killers have good mobility and good tile play. Freddy has his traps that slow survivors down and Spirit's power turns every tile into an L wall T wall.
I would argue that all the M1 killers have nearly 0 way of applying team pressure, especially on bigger maps. By your logic, wraith should be a top tier killer, since he has invisibility and very high mobility to get up close to survivors. Obviously the game is much more complex than just boiling it down to chases lasting too long or not enough map pressure.
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@Nazeef13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1601864#Comment_1601864
1:4 ratio is intended I don't see the problem if 80% of players are survivors.
Rank doesn't matter. Matchmaking being broken go both ways. You are countering your own points.
"Kill rate is so high because the game is very easy for survivor, so you get many survivors in ranks they don't belong because they've essentially been carried by their teams to that rank"
What? Survivors are dying because the game is easy? When survivors are carried, their escape still counts toward the kill rate. When survivors are boosted and dying, it also counts toward the kill rate.
"True kill rate is more in line with what happened in Hexy's tournament, as those are very high level players."
No... No it's not. Those players are at the far right end of the bell curve.
Adjusting the game at the skill ceiling is not the same as overall balance for the entire player base, especially since this is a "party game" not an ultra-competetive esorts game.
if 80% of people play survivors, then you will see a large portion of players being survivor friendly or anti killer on the forums, that's how population sizes work.
Rank does matter actually, you still need to pip. In order to pip you need to do objectives. Unfortunately it does not take much effort to pip as a survivor, you get a black pip if you just survive the trial and are carried by your team mates. Part of the reason why rank doesn't matter as much as it should is because of this.
The numbers were pulled from red ranks. If it is easy for survivors to pip and get into red ranks, more bad survivors will be in red ranks that don't belong in red ranks, this inflates survivor kill rates. Surprisingly this has an inverse reaction towards killer pipping because if you kill people too hard in this game, you will depip, so you got a bunch of bad survivors playing against very strong killers and you get a lot of dc's and 2 minute 4ks that go towards depipping the killer. Killer is much harder to pip in this regard, because you can actually depip if you kill too hard, if you survive too hard, you get an automatic black pip for surviving at the very least.
Red ranks were intended for the top players to play at, that's the whole reason there's a ranking system to begin with. True red rank games are much like what happened in Hexy's tournament, you should see kill rates very similar as red ranks are intended for high levels of play, much like hexy's tournament was. By true red rank games, I mean high level killers vs high level survivors.
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80% of players are survivors. Most people stick to survivor and the very few that do play killer don't play killer at a high enough level to experience how oppressive good survivors are.
@Nazeef13 said:
Kill rate is greater than 50%. Statistically speaking, it is.
Although near the skill ceiling, (4 man meta swf teams), it's a different story. But they are clearly rare enough to not be able to push kill rate below 50%
Kill rate is so high because the game is very easy for survivor, so you get many survivors in ranks they don't belong because they've essentially been carried by their teams to that rank. True kill rate is more in line with what happened in Hexy's tournament, as those are very high level players.
This game is extremely unbalanced, so you get snowballs in either direction within the first few minutes of the game, barring very bad mistakes during the rest of the game. Even a SWF of 2 players means they can coordinate perks, they know which perks each one has, and they have someone they can trust to take protection hits if need be or if they need to stay on the hook for a bit they know the other person won't just suicide and they can make plays based off of that trust that increases the efficiency of the team to a level that helps snowball the other 2 survivors as well, or at least guarantees a non 4k.
Being a mediocre survivor playing high ranks, I can vastly increase my survival rate by running perks like BT and making team plays just by myself, if I was better or if I had someone to team with, I'd easily have over 80% survival rate, as I have about a 60% survival rate as solo in red ranks. Kill rates just illuminate how bad the average survivor is at red ranks, it doesn't show anything about game balance. It is unfortunate that the devs rely on those numbers instead of being able to play their game at a high level to see what can be abused and exploited, or at least seek the advice of players that offer them legitimate criticism.
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there is absolutely zero appetite by the devs to actually balance this game and add a decent spectator mode. Hexy's tournament just elucidates how much of a joke this game is for any kind of serious gameplay / competition. It's been 4 years and expecting anything beyond bug riddled updates and cosmetics is just naive. With the failure of deathgarden, I think behavior is just going to stay in their lane and ride this game out until its end.