Xernoton
Xernoton
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@For_The_People said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/427144/maketheglovesharpagain
⊂( ･∀･) 彡 = =͟͟͞͞ 🍪
Thanks. 😋
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I can offer you a hard tunneling Pyramid Head, Doctor on The Game, Tombstone Piece Myers or basement Trapper. Do we have a deal?
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I can see why they would try to mitigate a problem until they have a better solution. But on one hand, Plague is up for changes, which seems to indicate that their priorities are mixed up and on the other hand you don't need to freddy a killer for the issues to be less prevalent.
I'm far from a Skull Merchant fan but really, why did they have to nerf everything about her? Had they removed the haste effect and nerfed the hindered effect it would already be pretty hard on her. But why did they need to remove the stealth mode and a scan line? Especially that last part sounds like a bad idea. Even just visually that would be weird.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798797#Comment_3798797
The killer can see gens. If you just follow the homing beacon gens you’re going to find survivors. The only way survivors escape is by completing gens. The killers I’ve seen have managed extremely well in Lights Out. You can still tunnel camp so the little buffs survivors receive are kind of inconsequential.
"Little" buffs? 20% extra gen speed, 60 seconds of endurance after getting unhooked and double the range of the AFC are not little. That is substantial. Also, the survivors don't need to use the candles, so there really is no "homing beacon". Not to mention that it also marks that gen for survivors. Calling these buffs inconsequential is a bit dishonest. They don't completely eliminate the possibility of tunneling and camping but they do make both of them much more risky.
I only played a total of 4 matches so far, all as survivor, and I escaped 3 times. The one time I didn't escape was still a win for my team. In all 4 matches I played, the survivors won. I reckon this is not enough for a real conclusion to the balance of this mode but it does support the feeling that survivors have the upper hand.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798805#Comment_3798805
That's not true at all, all killers need mobility. And I'm sure you know she is in fact the LEAST mobile killer in the game. She moves at 77% when holding a hatchet, that means survivors move at 123% whenever she is trying to hit them. Not to mention vocalizing the fact that she is trying to use her power. Now try to land a hit at any loop with any kind of mind game. I would say 15-20% of tiles in this game you can't actually land a hatchet at unless the survivor makes a huge mistake because how slow she is. She doesn't need to be 110% still, nor does Slinger.
Huntress doesn't need any mobility. She has a ranged attack for crying out loud.
Trickster is 115%….. AND can land his power WAY more at WAY more loops. Yes he has to land 8 but still, he is 115% and 96% when holding knives with 15 seconds to land a knife. Meanwhile Huntress is 110% and 77% when holding a hatchet and if you miss you miss.
I'll remind you that even after the buffs she still in the bottom 10 for kill rates. One of the highest number of 4 man outs as well. All of this according to nightlightggs.
Do you really want to open that particular can of worms? 77% while holding a hatchet is not her normal speed, so let's not pretend otherwise. Even then she wouldn't be the least mobile killer in the game. A stalking Myers is way slower. So I have no idea why that would even be relevant when it comes to mobility.
That math gives me a headache. This is not how it works. At all. 123%… try calculating anything further with that number and you'll see why it's off. If you want to calculate the survivor's speed relative speed to yours, then the formula is [Survivor speed] / [Your speed]. Meaning: 1 / 0.77 = 1.299 ~ 130%. That however is a pointless number since it doesn't tell you anything. Any useful calculation would use the 23% total speed difference.
Kill rates do not showcase balance. Freddy has a pretty high kill rate and Nurse's kill rate is always pretty low. What does that tell us? That Freddy is better than Nurse?
Huntress was already pretty good before her buffs and the game hasn't changed that much since.
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@nam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798761#Comment_3798761
She lacks mobility so she's countered hard by genrush perks and most maps have tall obstacles and airwalls, all these makes her actually terrible.
Huntress doesn't need any mobility. She has a ranged attack for crying out loud. You can hit people that are 10+ metres away from you and you can hit over many loops. Pallets have to be pre dropped against her and even then she can play around many of them with little trouble.
Even main tiles like jungle gyms, pallet gyms etc. aren't safe against her because one small mind game can result in a hit with a hatchet. The same goes for the shack, which most killers have trouble with.
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I only played 2 games so far, both as a survivor, but it looks like there is little to no point in using the candelabras, which are basically the only thing that would help the killer in any way. So what's left are a bunch of survivor buffs, that aren't necessarily bad but they feel kind of unfair when you consider that killers got nothing in return.
Both matches I played, the survivors won oretty easily. I managed to get myself killed in the second game because the Myers caught me at the exit gate but the others got away without issue.
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Weird. They do it with Skull Merchant but Myers and Freddy don't get any buffs at all… What would we be the problem in turning down Freddy's teleport cooldown a little? Or maybe give him 7 snares so he can try to set them up preemptively. Or reduce the time it takes for survivors to fall asleep at least at the start of the match.
Why can't Myers stalk a little faster? Or move faster while stalking without having to use these addons. These are small changes that they could do to make a killer better until they get to the rework.
But instead they do it with Skull Merchant and pretty much kill her in the process.
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Play Freddy. That's a real bad killer. Huntress is pretty strong. She's probably among the top 10.
Her chase power is amazing and she can even hit you cross map, if she's really good. That's more than most killers have going for them.
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@I_CAME said:
It's zero percent fun as survivor too if it makes you feel better.
I think Lights Out is just a failed concept. The hide and seek nature of DBD has been lost to time. Trying to force it back by making everything dark doesn't work very well. As a killer you feel like nothing happens all game and you're bored out of your mind and as a survivor you always feel like you can't really do much when the killer is on you because you don't see any loops. So again, it feels like pretty much nothing happens.
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This is definitely not the most outrage. I have only played the game for 3 1/2 years and this doesn't even make it into the top 5. Now that I think about it, it might not even be enough for the top 10.
I think that comes with the nature of this being an asymmetrical game. So you have 2 player bases that have conflicting ideas of how to balance this game. So there will always be at least some outrage. Personally, I think some of these changes are good but there are also some that just defy all logic.
The Skull Merchant nerfs are pretty overkill and some of the perk reworks are terrible as well. I still don't get the idea behind Zanshin Tactics. Why would you want to see the aura of a survivor near a dropped pallet? You'd already know where they are and you can't really use it for a mind game either because then you'd have to look in their direction, so they would see your red stain.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797802#Comment_3797802
I thought I had convinced ya he is not the worst, my friend.
You can convince me of many things but Freddy is a tragic story and I can't place him anywhere else than at the very bottom.
I find it much easier to believe that the 3 Freddy mains out there are just so good at the game. 😘
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797795#Comment_3797795
Is that not a bit of a contradiction? If a killer has no time to look for people and must be in chase, then stealth is actually very powerful. More powerful than looping, because stealth uses 0 resources and can be done infinitely.
The problem I have is that maps these days don't support the idea of killers being on chase 24/7 with no downtime, especially fast ones like Billy. We need the right balance of the two.
Stealth rarely happen though because then nobody does gens. Unless you're in a SWF and can coordinate it. But it's more effective in general to simply push your objective as fast as humanly possible. If you can still buy yourself extra time by sneaking when the killer comes near, then that's huge value. That's the reason Nowhere To Hide is so popular.
I think there could be more of a focus on hide and seek but not with the current pace of the game. Survivors progress insanely fast, which is necessary for them to keep up with a hard tunneling or camping killer, so you can't fix one without addressing the others. But as long as that isn't changed (which would also be pretty hard because nobody wants to sit on gens for even longer), you can't force the killer to invest additional time (time they don't have) into looking for a survivor.
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@dwight444 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797785#Comment_3797785
don't need to do the math to know what it's like to be in chase against him when he misses a saw and starts up again not too far behind. It's a general complaint and probably the biggest about his chainsaw
also, you're not running away in a straight line. Once you see he's going into power you need to play whatever is near you and by then you should have already took note of what is around you to even play
good math tho
Even if we were to assume, that you wouldn't run in a straight line (or running around a loop for that matter), it would still result in a lot of distance. That was the point of all this. To show that people 100% underestimate how far they actually get, which they do. You easily make it somewhere unless you're in a complete dead zone, which also wouldn't be a problem with the killer.
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You misspelled "Freddy".
SM is bad but a Freddy is a special case…
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The hide and seek was gone the moment survivors learned that you can actually loop the killer.
The killer simply doesn't have any time to spare looking for survivors. They need to be in chase. Constantly. Otherwise their pressure disappears and the survivors finish the gens before they get anything done. That isn't exactly new though. It's just that now that slowdown has been nerfed substantially, the killer has to save time instead of creating it.
Meaning, aura vision is the way to go.
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This is basically the Freddy approach. The killer is problematic and broken in some ways (although in SM's case not overpowered), so we nerf them in every aspect and put them right at the bottom. That way nobody will play them anymore and the problems disappear.
I'm not saying that's their actual goal but it does have that effect. As much as I hate SM, this is ridiculous. She won't quite rival Freddy for the bottom of the barrel killer but this is really bad.
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@dwight444 said:
idk but personally I thought he needed a cooldown
they literally miss and just rev up again and you better hope you were already almost close to a pallet the first time he missed
2.7 seconds of recovery time… That's 2.7 s x 4.0 m/s = 10.8 m of ground you, as a survivor, cover.
Plus 2.16 m/s faster movement than him for the same duration. That results in 2.7 s x 2.16 m/s = 5.832 m.
As far as I know the killer's effective lunge range is 2.5 m on a running survivor. Wind up time: 0.3 seconds of 0.6 m/s speed advantage (net distance of 0.18 m) and another 0.8 seconds of 2.9 m/s speed advanatage (net distance of 2.32 m).
So he would still need to catch up 3.332 m, which takes roughly 5.5 seconds. I sadly have no information about how the acceleration after a missed chainsaw works so this number will slightly differ.
For the sake of the argument I'll say the killer only needs 4 seconds to catch up (which I'm pretty sure is less than in reality). That still allows that survivor to cover another 16 metres. So all of this adds up to 26.8 m. That's a lot… So the idea that you have to be already right next to the pallet is absurd.
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Ok… So what perks should killers run then?
- Info perks are complained about to infinity, so that's a no.
- Slowdown perks are complained about too and also get nerfed every other patch, so that's a no.
- Chase perks were complained about and are almost all terrible. Also 4 chase perks is pretty much the most dull experience you can have, so that's another no.
The problem is that every killer perk falls into one of these 3 categories. I mean really, at this point, what is left? What perk can a killer use that doesn't fall into one of these categories?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I mean, this was expected. Lights Out was miserable for Survivor, clearly they had to change something. The Head Start was in the last version of the mode btw., the Repair Speed increase is new.
And I suggest to actually play the mode, because only this way it can be improved. It might be possible that Survivors escape too often, then the Devs will work on the mode again.
Personally, I am not that interested in it, so I will only play it as much as I have to, since I dont think it was really fun overall. But this is unrelated to any balance changes they have done.
Lights Out was miserable for killers as well. You kind of just ran around aimlessly since you had nothing to go by that would even hint of a survivor being there and eventually you lost. Survivors at least had a little bit of help to find their objective. Also if you hit anyone while they were vaulting a window, they were pretty much guaranteed to get away. So it felt like nothing happened the entire time. That was also the reason why pretty much every killer tried to camp one survivor. Otherwise you just wouldn't find anyone.
I'm not saying that these changes for survivors are bad but no improvements for killers? That's gonna end like the 2v8 mode where one side just won't have any reason to play.
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@FrenchBagels said:
if that’s the case then when is nurse getting on the chopping block? cant come any sooner
I mean, she kinda has been for the past 7 years. It's just that her power is game breaking by nature.
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I don't think so. There are other perks that are simply better even if they don't fill the same niche.
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Agreed. That was literally the first thing I thought of when I read that change. It might be rare but it will be horrible.
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@Royval said:
legit will probably never see a skull online again it’s 0 point of playing her she’s gonna be the worst killer in the game
I'm not sure. The bottom is heavily contested. She has to compete with the likes of Freddy, Myers and Trapper. But she's definitely down there with them.
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Nah, they just prerpare for the Freddy buff. SM is just the human sacrifice that's needed for the entity to grant him unlimited power.
Seriously though, this is pretty awful. I mean, she's not fun to play against and not all that interesting to play as either but this doesn't fix that. So these problems remain and on top of that she's also horribly weak now.
SM was unfair in the same way a killer that would always get exactly 1 kill would be unfair. Not because the killer is too strong but because the results are guaranteed and that makes them very tedious to play against. These nerfs don't help with that at all and only make her even less appealing to play.
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Killers
Hillbilly
I can see why they nerfed Billy but all of these might be a bit much. I mean, we're almost back to the atrocious 3 seconds cooldown for missed attacks. The nerfed Overdrive speed is also not their brightest idea. A lot of loops were just barely curvable with the increased speed. Now it's too slow and survivors get around the next corner again. The other 2 changes are understandable and completely justified.
Skull Merchant
Skull Merchant got the Freddy treatment. I can't say I'm happy about that. As much as I hate her (and I hate her a lot), I believe that all killers should be viable. This is not it, chief. She is still boring to play against but now also boring to play because you don't really get much out of her power.
Twins
Twins are slowly going back to their previous state… What is it with BHVR not knowing how to treat this killer? More than 2 years for a rework, that then had to be scratched in favor of some buffs and now we're nerfing them to be closer to how they were before.
Survivor Perks
The Teamwork perks will remain awful and I hope they stay that way. The only way for these perks to be good would require them to be broken. The concept doesn't work. You simply don't want to be around another survivor, especially when the killer is chasing after one of you.
Corrective Action + Hyperfocus and Stakeout on another survivor. Need I say more?
Inner Focus and WGLF are nice. Not the strongest perks of all time but definitely worth trying.
I'm honestly not sure what I think of Poised. The added aura vision is fine in solo queue but in a SWF it's disgusting. Especially at the start of the match. The survivors will now know immediately where the killer spawned and from what direction they will come from, which makes the early game even harder for the killer.
Blood Rush is amazing. Good job. A very strong anti tunnel perk.
Quick Gambit is a horrible perk because it has a range restriction (on live servers). Without the range restriction it is stupid. In order for the killer to get a down, they have to chase. Why should we punish them for that by granting the other survivors extra gen speed? That makes no sense. Also, this might not be a problem for a Nurse, Blight or Spirit but a Trapper or Freddy, who already struggle to get their first hits are punished by this perk even more. This cannot go live. Imagine this perk against a Myers! "Oh, you wanna stalk survivors to get your tier 3? Well, you better don't do that or they get extra gen speed." And it's not like Myers can afford to have any less time in the match to begin with.
The Distortion nerf is honestly way worse than what I had suggested. I think it's good that it does get a nerf but this is a bit extreme. Keep the stacks but only restore them when that survivor is hooked. Maybe make it 3 stacks instead of 4. But that would be enough.
I honestly liked the old Lucky Star, so I'm not too thrilled about it. I'm not sure, if anyone will use it for the new effect either. It certainly does have some niche use but it's not great.
Killer perks
Genetic Limits now counters Overcome… But it's pretty much useless against the 2 exhaustion perks everyone uses, so there's no reason to use Genetic Limits either.
Leverage has got be one of the most unhealthy perks I have ever seen. In the same patch we get a great anti tunneling perk we also get a great tunneling perk. Help me understand!
Thwack! got a pretty nice buff but it's not all that good. Most killers break pallets IN chase and then you don't need the effect. I guess it can sometimes help with survivors going for a flashlight save but that's pretty much all I can think about. So it's still pretty mediocre.
Machine Learning is a difficult perk to rate. The effect is insane but it doesn't activate all that much. I think it would be better, if it got a rework since the effect results in pretty much guaranteed hits.
Deathbound is pretty good. I don't see too much of an issue with it and it's a perk that helps you when you don't tunnel. So that's nice.
I want the old Zanshin Tactics back. Yeah, it was almost useless on most killers but so is the new one. Survivors only drop pallets when the killer is near them and then the killer already knows where they are, so the aura vision is not very helpful. And for mind games… The survivor either sees the killer directly or they see their red light, so even then the aura vision is useless.
Dead Man's Switch… Yeah, they kind butchered Freddy again. This was one of his best perks.
Blood Echo remains about as useful as before. Not much. You don't get to run around and injure a bunch of people with most killers so the perk does little to nothing most of the time.
Crowd Control is overkill. I mean, what's next? Survivors can no longer vault pallets? It's already a hex perk that has to be cleased immediately and then it's gone. So it's still pretty bad by nature of it being a hex perk.
Predator is pretty nice. It might not feel great to play against, since mostly you have to do something right to even lose chase as a survivor but given how often the killer can lose chase due to random things, I think it's fine and also a good perk for beginners.
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@k3ijus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793915#Comment_3793915
Actually, the grass is greener on the other side.
Most killer games (9/10) i always win, regardless of the fact if im using my main or just a random killer, i usually always win, contrast this with the fact i win 4/10 of my survivor matches despite running the most meta and youll see the difference
And yes everything is rng based and i dont have a problem with that, inherently playing survivior should be a challenge and there should be some games that are pitted against surviviors, like a doctor on the game like you said. But the problem is the fact how every game seems like your destined to lose. Hypothetically even if i did play perfectly against a doctor in a neutral map, the doctor could obtain a 1k from internal game mechanics, and secure a 2k from camping endgame, im not discussing tunneling and camping but its so much easier to kill than escape.
Right now, the game favors the killer in terms of outcome. If that is the only metric you use, then of course you'll come to the conclusion that the game is killer sided. This still doesn't discredit my point though. Survivors cried that the game was killer sided when it clearly wasn't and now killers cry that the game is survivor sided. Neither side ever has stopped or will stop. That is a clear case of "The grass is always greener on the other side." and it's the sole reason why the complaints about unbalance will never stop.
If you win 9/10 of your killer games, that's pretty impressive. My own win rate is not too bad but nowhere near 90%. Either you're just very gifted or you play killer too little for the game to put you against adequate survivors. MMR is a very important factor in who wins. You could go into the game and lose a bunch of matches on purpose and then start a win streak. But you could do that in pretty match any game with SBMM no matter how balanced the game might be.
4/10 wins as a survivor isn't too bad either. The game is not balanced around a win rate but a kill rate. If you win 9/10 games, you could still have a 67.5% kill rate, which is higher than what the devs aim at but it's nowhere near that 90%. And if you win 4/10 games as a survivor that could still mean that in your games there is a 55% suvival rate. And that's assuming there are no draws. Judging the game's balance by how many games you win doesn't really work that well because win does not equal win. Your team still wins if you die but everyone else escapes and 3k < 4k. That's probably why the devs don't try to balance around win rates.
Wins are just too inconsistent and subjective. Some killers only consider a 4k a win and some survivors only consider 3-4 escapes a win if they themself make it out alive.
Hypothetically even if i did play perfectly against a doctor in a neutral map, the doctor could obtain a 1k from internal game mechanics, and secure a 2k from camping endgame, im not discussing tunneling and camping but its so much easier to kill than escape.
That is an unfortunate truth and it will remain the same way as long as the game is balanced around kills rather than hooks. It's simply a core issue. Someone can (in theory) die on their first hook and there is very little that can be done against it as long as the killer has an ability or perk that helps them defend that hook. The same issue comes in when the killer actually does tunnel. This is what comp killers use to win their games. They target the game's core issues just as the survivors they play against do.
In public lobbies however, it is much easier for the killer to do so simply because it doesn't require 4 experienced players on comms but only 1. I doubt this is something that will ever change though. BHVR probably aren't all that interested to change the very core mechanics of the game and a band aid solution à la AFC probably won't work.
The only other way to achieve a more constant balance is to make tunneling, camping and slugging the norm and balance around that. I'm very much against this and I believe most other players are too.
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Cool story but the truth is that the grass is always greener on the other side. People will always say that the game is balanced against them. We had the same situation when the game was still objectively survivor sided. This isn't something new.
Also, the game swings wildly from survivor sided to killer sided depending on loadouts and maps. Oh, you play Doctor on The Game and have a build that helps you deal with these pallets? That's gonna be an easy win. Now do it with Freddy. Or Trapper. Or Myers. These killers are simply horrible on that map.
You can also play in a full SWF with optimised loadouts and send yourself to Garden of Misery. If you happen to play against a Nurse with her strongest build, you might still get screwed but against most killers this will be an easy game. Now look at what happens when you play solo queue.
@WolfyWood said:
It's partly BHVR's fault for pushing the power role narrative.
You now have a sizeable chunk of killer players who honestly believe they should win 90% of their matches and the remaining 10% should be due to intentionally losing.
These same people hate being outplayed and survivor gameplay is heavily scrutinized, discredited, and reduced to being spacebar and W-key only.
You have people here openly and proudly admitting to playing emotionally and spitefully while being cheered on.
This forum and reddit are killer sided though and largely an echo chamber, cause whiny survivors exist too but are mostly on Twitter or talking to their swf friends.
The solution is to not take these people seriously.
So on Twitter, you don't take any survivor main seriously and in the forums you discredit what killer mains say? Sounds good. I can totally see how this leads to constructive discussions.
The way I see it, most human beings are capable of logical thinking, so you can present a point and support it with your arguments. Whoever disagrees will present their own arguments against it and eventually you find some common ground. I know it's hard but this is how a discussion usually works.
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Yes. The devs hate it when you play survivor. They want everyone to play killer because that's totally how an asymetrical game with 1 killer and 4 survivors works.
You could have made a better point if you hadn't listed 3 perks that used to be pretty ridiculous. DH was so overpowered that everyone used it. And I mean everyone. We saw the official pick rates at the time and under no circumstances should a perk be so good that 75% of survivors use it (in high MMR no less).
Iron Will was the weakest of the 3 but it had no downside whatsoever, which for an effect this strong shouldn't be a thing. DS was also unfair at the time. You could sit on a gen after getting unhooked and you were still protected. Basically the killer was punished for the crime of hooking you. It's no tunneling when you sit on a gen.
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@kosaba11 said:
First, killers are already over powered, they don't need BBQ to be base kit. In fact, killers shouldn't even have aura reading perks.
Second, average killers are capable of killing survivors faster using hooks than slugging with ever be - put a survivor on hook three times, and they're dead, and that's if they don't give up. The only killers who think slugging is an okay thing to do are bad killers.
Third, hook placement is done is such a way where wiggling is useless. There is always a hook nearby, and even more so now that they respawn even after being used to kill a survivor.
Fourth, slugging has only become rampant because there's nothing to defend against it on the survivor's side, and bad killer are taking advantage of it. That's it - good killers don't need to slug.
Base kit BBQ is controversial, I get that. But no aura reading perks at all? Ridiculous. Do you really expect a killer to run around and hope to find survivors by pure luck every time? As a survivor you don't need to see your objective because it's static, locked in place. But as a killer you have 4 targets that can move around the map freely and with how quick gens can be finished, the killer really doesn't have time to look for survivors. Otherwise they don't have the time to finish a chase.
I mean, just think about it. Let's say it takes 10 seconds for a killer to get near a survivor after every hook and another 15 seconds before they find them. Now they begin the chase and get a down after 45 seconds (which is pretty quick for most killers). Then they go and hook that survivor which takes about 8-15 seconds (depends on how far you need to walk to a hook), so let's assume it's 10 seconds on average (which is faster than in reality). That's 80 seconds in total for a single hook stage. The survivors can finish 3 gens in that time if they bring anything to increase gen speed. Good luck coming back after that. That math ain't mathin'.
Your second point is hardcore tunneling, which most of us agree shouldn't be the standard. So saying that that's better than slugging is a pretty weak argument. Not only that but you misunderstand the point. The point about slugging isn't to get that survivor to bleed out (unless they can't be hooked) but to take a calculated risk for the chance of another quick hit or down. Also, just because you don't like it doesn't mean people are bad at the game for using certain things. I don't really like getting blinded while I pick up a survivor. Does that make that survivor bad at the game? Probably not.
The third point is because you are not supposed to wiggle out by default. It's supposed to be a possibility, if your team is on point. That and it limits how far the killer can carry you, so that they don't get a basement hook each and every time.
Unbreakable, Exponential, We're Gonna Live Forever, Medkits, Buckle Up, For The People, Flip-Flop, Tenacity… Yeah, sure. All these things don't exist. There is no way at all to do something against a slugging killer. It's not like slugging is a risk on its own because if it doesn't work out, the killer is in a pretty bad spot.
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Played survivor. Was left on hook for approximately 135 seconds (no the killer didn't camp) and got rescued. Escaped through the gate. Not sure how I feel about that but it was pretty funny.
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No can do. May I interest you in another Freddy nerf?
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It's really not good. The extra regression is so little it might as well not be a thing and the info is not very good either. BHVR giveth and BHVR sure taketh away.
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It might be that your group has a weak link. That pulls you down massively because the killer is likely going to be much better than them. A single survivor can lose the match for their entire team but if the killer is any good it's almost impossible for a single survivor to win the match for their entire team. That has nothing to do with how "one-sided" the game is but the nature of DBD. As soon as 1 survivor is dead the rest will follow (unless it's already too late).
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788261#Comment_3788261
The thing is, I am very convinced that people who play like that dont care if they win. I went against a Legion a few days ago who tried to slug the whole team. It was a long and tedious match with 3 escapes in the end and I guess nobody had fun in it. And the only reason why we had 3 escapes (one person bleed out) was because we were at least a 2man SWF, probably 2 2man SWF and had the last Gens basically in every corner of the map, which allowed us to work on them when not being slugged (even tho it also meant to travel long distances for a pickup..).
I asked the Legion why they play like this just to be annoying and they said that they do not care about winning or having fun anymore and just want that Survivors have a bad experience. Great.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788266#Comment_3788266
100% this.
Knockout and Boil Over will never be good and they are only really "useful" in an unhealthy way. Knockout is a bit easier to use, because you would need a full build for Boil Over (and probably a SWF), but both Perks will never find themselves in Loadout of players who just want to have a normal game.
I asked the Legion why they play like this just to be annoying and they said that they do not care about winning or having fun anymore and just want that Survivors have a bad experience. Great.
As much as I agree that Knock Out shouldn't exist in this form, that's not really the issue here, is it? That player will find a different way to ruin the match for other people, if Knock Out is reworked. The only thing that can help with players like this is the ban hammer. It doesn't have to be permanent (not right away at least) but forcing them on a month long "vacation" might help.
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It's incredibly unhealthy, no questions. I tried this myself to see how effective it is and lo and behold it's ridiculous. It works even against SWFs because most SWFs are not on a high enough level to mitigate the time loss by Knock Out completely. You wear them out until someone makes a mistake or they waste all their resources and suddenly you win.
Even if you don't win, the perk is incredibly unhealthy because it makes playing survivor miserable beyond comprehension. I actually made a post about this earlier this year:
@Xernoton said:
As you all know, slugging for the 4k isn't exactly fun to play against. You just lie there on the ground and wait for something to happen without the threat of dying or coming close to it in 60 seconds. But at least it's not something the killer will do every game and it's also not something they'll be able to use as a means to win games consistently.
Well, let me introduce you to Knock Out:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9JPZSS4YMGRH/screenshot-2819-29.png
So why is this is an issue? Well, let's go over all the effects and what they accomplish:
- Downing a survivor with a M1 makes their aura invisible for their team outside a certain distance. That already doesn't good, right? Well, dear reader, it isn't. Because it means that: The survivors don't get information about the killer's position. This might sound very minor but remember we are talking about a perk that promotes slugging. Their team mates will not know from where the killer is approaching, they will not know from where they came (meaning they don't know where resources were deleted) and they won't know where their slugged team mate is. That is a lot of information that this perk denies with just one effect.
- The slugged survivor has no information where to crawl. They can't see their team mates auras and they are deafened, which makes it impossible to determine their position with the help of sound clues. Meaning, their best option is to stay where they are and start recovering in the hopes that their team mates will find them eventually. However, some survivors try to be super smart and crawl away from where they were downed, so the killer can't find them again. This is usually towards the edge of a map, which makes it even harder for the others to find them.
- Knock Out reduces the crawling speed. Even if you were to know where the other survivors are, crawling towards them will take forever.
- The recovery speed is reduced by 25%. Now, this doesn't like a lot, does it? The problem is that you don't have forever to get back up again. After 4 minutes, you bleed out and the longer it takes for you to recover, the longer it will take to get you back up, which brings you closer to bleeding out.
Now, I know what you're thinking: "Who cares, hooking is much better because you only need to down them 3 times and then they're dead." But this is not quite true. You see, what happens normally is that a killer will run after a survivor and eventually get a down. Now they have their cooldown animation (2.7 seconds, let's take half of it because when slugging, they'll still move) will have to look for that survivor because they are likely to glitch around for a bit (about 1 second), then they pick up (3 seconds) and carry that survivor to a hook (5 seconds at least) before going through the hooking animation (1.5 seconds). This adds up to a total of 11.85 seconds (which is very optimistic because it usually takes longer to get to a hook) plus a bit of extra time that is lost while carrying that survivor to a hook (usually not where you'd normally go) at reduced speed. So it all comes to a total of about 15 seconds (still very optimistic). That's for every hook.
As reference: Pain Res grants the killer a maximum of 25% x 90s = 22.5 seconds and it requires the killer to carry that survivor to a specific hook and can only be activated 4 times. This means, that Pain Res buys the killer less time than it actually takes them just hooking survivors in a match with 5 hooks. And that's assuming, they can even make it to a scourge hook 4 times.
So the killer saves 16 seconds hooking survivors each time they get a down. But now they don't benefit from any of the hook related perks in the game, so it's probably still not worth it, right? Well, you'd be wrong, dear reader. Because those 16 seconds will be applied elsewhere. The killer will immediately go for the next survivor and now only 2 survivors remain on gens. At the same time however, nodoby will know where the slugged survivor actually is (even most SWFs only give an estimated position or direction), which forces 1 survivor off the gen to look for them. This is already likely going to take longer than going for an unhook because they can't pick the shortest route. Eventually they will find the slug and start healing, so now everything works as if they were hooked, right?
Actually no. Because they weren't hooked, no unhook could happen either. This means, that no hook related perks (DH, DS, OTR, We'll Make It etc.) were activated either so it means, that healing now might actually take longer than normal. This wastes even more time. All the while, the killer might already have gotten another hit / down and continue on their task to slug everyone.
So we have a higher efficiency on killers and a lower efficiency on survivors, that also allows the killer to maintain pressure constantly instead of giving the survivors breathing room between a down and a hook. But of course, this isn't all. Because a killer has 4 perks and slugging won't allow them to use some of everyone's favorite meta perks, they will have to use something else. Something to make Knock Out really shine by utilising all the extra time it grants you. Something that will also give you information so you can constantly keep up cycle of slugging, chasing, slugging, chasing and slugging until everyone is down. Something like Nurse's Calling, Surge and Sloppy Butcherer.
Nurse's Calling is also a great counter to Distortion because 1 of those survivors will still be shown. The combination of these perks allows you to get slowdown and increase your efficiency further because it saves you time kicking gens, information thanks to Surge and Nurse's Calling, which also helps interrupt healing and slug one of them again, while chasing the other away and slowing down any healing. This means, that you have a build that does pretty much everything to make Knock Out shine. You can also make those perks do some work even with only a health state and no down because they will have to heal, if they want to break the cycle of constantly getting slugged. Unbreakable cannot break it either because it's one and done. So only No Mither an Exponential remain. Exponential can be snuffed and No Mither would need to be used on more than 1 person because you can always just hook (or ignore) that 1 guy, while slugging the rest.
I have tested this build on a variety of different killers: Trapper, Wraith, Myers, Doctor, Freddy, Clown, Legion, Plague, Ghostface, Demogorgon, Deathslinger, Dredge, Skull Merchant, Singularity and Xenomorph and so far I haven't lost a single game. I came close to losing 1 game as Freddy on Temple of Purgation because a Zarina with Plot Twist attempted to counter Knock Out (respect to that Zarina). I played all of these games with the same build, no offerings to give me an advantage and no addons. Especially Wraith and Doctor surprised me in how well they could make use of these perks.
In these games I have encountered my fair share of SWFs and still they could not keep up with the constant hit and run into Knock Out. I do not believe that this build is unbeatable but I reckon it is way too strong for any casual group to survive against and I am 100% convinced that the perk that ties the build together, Knock Out, is a problem and needs a rework. There should never be a perk that increases the strength of slugging. I remember warning the devs about this when the change was first announced. But until this day, the issue remains unseen because most players like to stick with what they know.
If you don't believe me, I ask you to put aside your morals and test this build yourself.
TL;DR: Knock Out needs a rework.
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Sorry you had a bad experience but surely this doesn't happen that often. Most players try to unhook their teammates way before they go second stage.
Anyway, I wish you better luck in the future.
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I don't see why the concept of slugging would be toxic rather than the motives. It's just one of many ways to play the game. Obviously if you go out of your way to bleed everyone out that is toxic but as long as you're only doing it because it gives you the upper hand, it's not toxic at all. It's playing for the win. You are not obligated to consider your opponent's fun as long as you play by the rules.
What Hens did in this clip wasn't toxic. Because it lacked malice. He did that because he had the chance to win the game like this.
Whether or not the game design that allows for this to happen is good or bad is a different discussion entirely.
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I agree. Both need downs, so the 6.1.0 situation can't happen with them and they also disincentivise (or at least try to) some mean killer strategies. Pop is terrible for camping because you need to get to the gen to kick it and Pain Res doesn't work while you're tunneling.
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You can make an educated guess but that's pretty much it. I saw a video of someone who claimed that hook rng is in some way connected to the hatch rng but I'm not sure how accurate that is. As others have already pointed out, the hatch spawn is decided at the beginning of the match (or at least it used to be like that and they haven't announced any changes to this in particular), so it's pretty much guaranteed that this person just guessed lucky.
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Congrats. It's always nice to come back after a break and enjoy a game again. I wish you many more good matches. Keep up the good vibes.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783425#Comment_3783425
You're thinking too small. That's not a solution either.
Imagine how crappy it'd be for the killer if swf's could just bring hatch offerings and go down away from the location or afk at the gate for a virtually guaranteed escape.
At least now the killer can slug or at least travel to the spot during the sacrifice animation.
I must reiterate, it's a complex problem that requires reworking how kills and escapes work towards winning or losing, that's why nothing has been implemented yet.
It being reportable is a temporary fix to discourge it from happening every game, and I'd really like to see evidence of people getting consistently punished for it or a dev comment.
Imagine how crappy it'd be for the killer if swf's could just bring hatch offerings and go down away from the location or afk at the gate for a virtually guaranteed escape.
So? Screw that. Just give me a way out of the match. Plain and simple. The killer should not be at the mercy of the survivors to leave a match that they don't progress. Especially not for that long.
The situation you described is already possible but people don't do that very often. If the devs implemented a mechanic to help the killer against survivors that stopped doing gens for X amount of time this wouldn't become worse (why would it? it's 2 completely different things). It's just a flaw that this mechanic can't fix.
The problem is not at all complex. The problem is very simple and a solution could be very simple as well. You create strawman arguments and then tell me it doesn't work. The mechanic I suggested was never intended to fix the end game (that is indeed a more complex issue) but only to stop the extreme cases in which survivors stop doing their objective and hold the killer hostage (the intention doesn't matter because the outcome doesn't change here). The end game is a completely seperate issue.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783372#Comment_3783372
Except you assume that the killer would hook the revealed survivor.
In most 2v1 situations the killer slugs the third person who gives up to get the 4k. Why would this be any different?
It's really not about wasting time, killers do that already.
My assumption is that this frustrates killers because for once it's a mutual waste of time and a denial of a free win.
Claiming that every 2v1 is a loss so the killer deserves a 4k is a flawed perspective you guys in this thread have due to heavy bias and completely ignores the nuance of every match and survivor team, and exactly why I told you in my first reply that BHVR hasn't changed anything in this regard yet, it's not an easy problem to fix.
For once I'm glad they don't listen to the players on this subject.
Then automatically activate the finisher mori on the 3rd survivor when they're down, if they had been revealed by this mechanic. It's that simple. Suddenly they're dead and the other survivor still has a chance to get hatch.
You make assumptions and then judge everyone on those assumptions. I don't need a free 4k. But I want a way out of a match that is over. You don't like being slugged for 4 minutes. Now imagine that for >10 minutes. None of these are good but one is clearly worse than the other.
The only reason I wouldn't take a surrender option is because it would incentivise the last 2 survivors to hide in the hopes the killer will surrender eventually.
We are not even talking about a fair game anymore. Because not doing objectives for extended periods of time is considered against the rules by the devs. With good reason.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783197#Comment_3783197
'The solution is easy aka after five minutes the killer gets a guaranteed 4k.' That's all these suggestions are.
There's a reason why they have not done anything yet. Its extremely hard to make a tie-breaker that's not grossly favoring one side or the other, it would require reworking fundamental win-conditions of the game which takes time and effort that's probably not worth it right now.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783243#Comment_3783243
You won so hard that you managed to lose half the team with no clues at all, if anything the survivors left should be rewarded for being that good at stealth.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783195#Comment_3783195
Hatch spawning at two survivors would feel awful for the killer, that's not a solution either.
The frustration of what? Not being given a 4k? How do you think the survivors feel after literally giving the killer a free kill and then being slugged until they bleed out because its not enough?
Sorry. I can't answer both of you in one post for some reason.
You are wrong about the 4k. It's a guaranteed 3k if the survivors don't do gens because the other one still has a chance at hatch. Which is exactly the same result that we have now. Only that it wouldn't take a ridiculous amount of time to get a result that was inevitable. We are talking about SURVIVORS THAT DON'T DO GENS. They can't escape anyway, so it's not even a tie-breaker. They will lose simply because they don't progress their objective.
The only question at that point is, how long will it take? The answer to this question should not be 25 minutes or longer.
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@SOULWARRIOR71K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783197#Comment_3783197
It would not be fair to essentially give the killer a free kill just because the 2v1 situation is unwinnable for the survivor side. If you’re going to do that, you might as well make it so that once the first survivor gets downed, they are instantly sacrificed, the games ends and the last survivor gets an escape. Then at least both sides get something.
If 2 survivors hide and don't do gens then the killer gets a free kill anyway. It's not a "hide 10 minutes and get out for free". You don't progress and you don't get out. The problem is that the result is already predetermined. Nobody wants to play a 10 minutes game in which it is already clear exactly what is going to happen.
The results don't change because of this mechanic. They just happen before you are bored out of your mind. Survivors can't win if they don't do gens. That's the flaw in your argument.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783171#Comment_3783171
I like how the OP and others can't just admit that they want a guaranteed 4k in a 2v1.
I don't want the game to go 25 minutes with nothing happening. That's all. Would you stare 25 minutes at your TV when it's turned off? Probably not. Both are equally boring.
Also you can turn that argument around. "I like how people that don't do gens anymore just want a guaranteed escape." I understand why but it doesn't mean it's good. It's a clear flaw in DBD's core design and not really something that you can fix by giving the survivors a fair incentive. Their chances to escape would need to be at least equally high as when all survivors were still alive. But that wouldn't fair.
The solution is easy. If after X amount of time (make it 5 minutes so it can't be used in a normal game) the killer hasn't been in a chase, they get killer instinct on one survivor with the least hook stages until they either enter chase, come within a certain range (would need to be pretty close) or damage a survivor in any way. 5 minutes is long enough for it not to effect the normal game but it does still bring an end to the match if necessary.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783006#Comment_3783006
Any system that would punish the very concept of camping would be exploitable and feel absolutely horrible
I disagree with this, especially considering practically nothing has been tried to accomplish it. There was one attempt in year one of DBD's lifespan, it was a haphazard attempt, and now everyone just throws their hands in the air with an 'oh well, we tried' and that's that. Nothing since. I just think that's quitter talk.
They haven't tried because it's pretty obvious. What options do you have to stop the killer from camping? Only 2. 1) Replace the killer by a bot. 2) Punish them flat out for being within a certain proximity of a hooked survivor and punish them hard. It's pretty obvious that option 1) is not desirable. So we have option 2) left.
In order to stop the killer from camping you either have to remove the entire unhooking mechanic completely, teleport the survivor to a different location whenever the killer comes anywhere near them (which could also backfire for survivors), punish the killer by increasing repair speed drastically or remove the unhook timer altogether. None of these are good and all of them have a big effect on the overall game.
- Teleporting a survivor to a different location immediately removes the entire point of strategically beneficial hooks, so we dumb down the game. Not great but not enough for it to backfire completely. A survivor would need to be teleported away immediately when the killer comes close or we just get the same issue we have now. Increasing the overall range by much would only lead to them teleporting around the entire map constantly, especially on smaller maps and it could also be used so that survivors can't unhook their team mate.
- Increasing the overall gen speed is another horrible idea because it would need to have a pretty wide range or we'd have the same effect we have now. You can't punish a killer for simply existing on the same map as a hooked survivor. Technically you can but you get the point. Do that and you punish them for the very act of hooking.
- The unhook timer is the only way for a killer to put survivors under time pressure. Removing that means, they will either stealth for prolonged periods of time until the killer is away and then unhook or rush gens and ignore their team mate (doesn't matter who wins in this case because I'm pretty sure nobody would appreciate being left on the hook minutes).
If you have any ideas how to tackle this issue without it being excruciating on killers overall or simply exploitable, then I'd be happy to hear it. But so far any idea I've seen was exploitable or ridiculously unbalanced. As soon as an anti "X thing" mechanic punishes a player even when they don't do "X thing" it becomes a problem overall. Just think about the psychological effect. "Oh, you got a hook? Good job buddy. Now we punish you because you might actually try to camp that hook."
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782012#Comment_3782012
But my point is that nobody asked for the 'face' part of camping to be removed. People want camping out, not 'the killer is not respecting social distancing'.
So this whole 'anti-face-camp' mechanism has been a complete waste of effort, since it solved a problem no one had. It's just empty fluff.
That's not quite true. Because the complaints were mostly about face camping. An argument could be made that many of the people that complained about face camping confused it with regular camping but that was the part that was most complained about.
BHVR have no intention to remove camping completely and I think that's probably for the better. Any system that would punish the very concept of camping would be exploitable and feel absolutely horrible. It would be like a worse version of a base kit Deadlock, which already isn't exactly fun to play against. But at least it comes as a perk and not a base kit feature.
They could probably tweak the AFC a bit more but removing camping in general would end in disaster.