VomitMommy
VomitMommy
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@UndeddJester said:
I remember the discussion regarding @PixelBush's original rework last time. I'm not sure Pixel is too active on the forums, but I'll tag anyway, as I do remember they were here and were quite open to discussion regarding the SM debate.
I recall when we talked about it before, the main concern regarding the neuroshock was compared the the hindered it could be even more deadly. From my newb perspective at the time I felt the neuroshock was less potent than the hindered, though as we discussed and I've since learned more about positioning, the neuroshock is debatable stronger… but I think in the context of everything Pixel says here… I think the idea is actually bloody good.
In case you don't wanna watch the summary is: -
Drones: -
- Scanline immunity window lowered from 3s → 2.25s
- Allows for more skillful Skull merchants to go for double tags.
- Drone Deployment time 1.5s → 0.75s
- Makes laser tagging quicker and easier (not sure needed, but I'll roll with it)
- Scout drone rotation lowered from 85 deg/s → 75 deg/s
- Slower rotation speed to lower the cognitive load for survivor.
- Drones in stealth mode do not rotate
- Allows drones to serve as reliable traps to block off paths ahead of time, making her an effective trap killer who is rewarded for predicting survivor paths.
- Makes them predictable for survivors for drones placed in loops where only a portion of the loop is blocked off, not having to keep mindful of where the stealth drone is at all times without being able to see the lines.
- Stealth Mode Drones have their yellow marker ring removed
- Necessary for trap drones to work
Stealth: -
- Removed Undetectable when placing a drone.
- No longer allows Skull Merchant to plonk a drone down to block off a tile AND hide her red light at the same time
- Skull Merchant now gains stealth when recalling a non-disabled drone
- Allows Skull Merchant to more directly control her stealth without being tied to a cooldown.
- Has a cost and a "set up time" for SKull Merchant to use.
- Has built in counterplay where disabling a drone denies her ability to go undetectable.
- Her reliable stealth now shores up the weakness of survivors not healing, also an actual reason for Broken to be in her kit.
Claw Traps: -
- Remove haste completely
- Remove hindered completely
- When scanned with a claw trap, for 6s SM can pull up her radar and press the attack button to shock the targeted survivor, expending one claw trap charge.
- Doesn't deny survivors movement speed, and means she still has catch them as an m1 killer.
- Still requires her to push survivors into/laser tag to get the proc.
- Has timing requirement where the window to shock in limited.
There are also add-ons changes, that can be discussed later.
I think with these changes to greatly increase her skill floor, and the restrictions on Neuroshock (which mitigate the fact that unlike Doctor she doesn't slow down when shocking) all makes her far more engaging.
Quite a different direction to the direction we've discussed, but I think it's very interesting, and was curious of your thoughts :D
I am overall not a fan of most of those changes. I think it would make her even more annoying to play against and only buff hold W counterplay which is boring to me.
Drones in stealth mode do not rotate
I want that yellow addon to work this way....
Scan immunity and deployment
That will let more reliably injure survivors with her drones, which is really not going to make her more popular for survivors....
Stealth Mode Drones have their yellow marker ring removed
For this you would need to remove broken, so survivors are not as punished for getting claw trap. It would become even more noob stomping power otherwise.
Skull Merchant now gains stealth when recalling a non-disabled drone
It would make it less reliable. Simply because you don't have direct feedback of drone is disabled or not. Yes, you can notice drone getting disarmed and it gets slightly higher, but that's just impossible to track on most maps when you need undetectable fast.
Undetectable on drone placement is way more reliable in my opinion.
Remove haste completely
Remove hindered completely
When scanned with a claw trap, for 6s SM can pull up her radar and press the attack button to shock the targeted survivor, expending one claw trap charge.
That's the moment where I think it becomes worse for both sides. Thing is haste makes her gameplay feel way better, but it's not as oppressive and you can definitely play against both haste and hindered.
Removal will make survivors just holding W better against her and prerun is already very annoying for her.
Shock on demand without slowdown would become really oppressive. With hindered you can still play the pallet as against Clown quite easily. Shock is going to lead to hits where there is simply nothing survivor can do about it.
- Scanline immunity window lowered from 3s → 2.25s
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756375#Comment_3756375
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756472#Comment_3756472
Fixing totems to not spawn in the open or next to gens isn't enough. Many of these extremely fast totem cleanses occur when the survivors spawn right next to the totem. If the survivors didn't spawn there, they would be in a hidden location far from gens. Totems need to be concealed at the start of the match to fix this.
It would definitely help overall.
I would rather just block cleansing of hexes until first gen is finished, but survivors can still find them in advance.
Trying to "hide" as dull totems would simply become even bigger gambling situation. Imagine how irritating would be for someone to cleanse ruin for inner strength by accident…
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@Beaburd said:
Chase is another aspect, 6 seconds from average chase is not really a big deal.
Your time comparison seems better because of your multiplying system, which is simply incorrect. If you compare it as real time value, which is only thing that matters for killer, it's falling behind.
That's not true, single trigger of pop/pain res on 1/2 gens left is actually a big deal and is definetly something to give you chance for comeback. Because it gives you more time to do something with it (not 6 seconds)….
I can't say that for remote hooking.That's kinda why all perks should compare real time values, not imaginary amount from theory.
The time a single trigger of pain res gives at half value is 9 seconds, it is usable 4x per match, and has similar (albeit slightly harder) conditions to use than remote hooking (down + hook at a specific place, relative to just downing).
The time a single trigger of Pop gives at half gen value is also 9 seconds, is usable 11 times (same amount of times as remote hooking), and has a slightly harder condition (down + hook relative to just downing).
Even if we, to my own disfavor, do not use half-way wiggle point when carrying of 8 seconds and prefer instead to use the arbitrarily chosen 6 second average value you picked out, the time values are still similar. Remote hooking also has more lax conditions.
We are looking at raw values right now, while still neglecting the other benefits of remote hooking (namely reduced save opportunities, saved time walking back from a hook) to offset the value of passive 0.25c/s regression, for simplicity's sake.
So can you explain to me why, without relying on anecdotal evidence, that Pop or Pain's (you choose) raw 9 seconds of time saved on a single generator is so vastly superior to remote hooking generously low-balled 6 seconds of time saved with easier use conditions?
You're quick to criticize my logic, but I've yet to see you offer an alternate logical view point that extends past 'that's how it works' or 'everything sucks if you can't use it.'
So there is a limitation even for remote hooking…
It's a risk, not a limit.
You can use remote hooking on every down with no limit, as long as the brief 20 sec CD elapsed (which it should, given you stated the average chase time is about 50 sec?).
You can also slug without a limit until they die, but you risk them have unbreakable, getting healed, etc.. You risk not getting benefit here as well, but there's no limit.
Meanwhile scourge hooks, pain resonance anyway, that has a limit. You can only use it 4x per match until it's gone forever.
Scourge also has the additional risk of not getting a scourge hook though.Remote hooking doesn't create pressure, it gives you option to do so slightly faster, but it doesn't guarantee it. You have pressure from downing, but remote hooking had nothing to do with it.
Doing things faster is arguably the definition of pressure in many games, including this one.
Ever play an FPS?
If people continually rush down your position without a break, I guarantee you'll feel more pressure than if they did it in bursts that allowed for breathing room.
Likewise, if the timer on your game is ticking and you need to capture a flag soon or you lose the game - I guarantee you'll feel pressured to do that soon as well.Same logic applies here.
If the killer is repeatedly running down the survivors without break periods (which is the carry period), that's increased pressure.
If the survivor gets hooked and the timer to their next hook stage/death starts faster, that's increased pressure.And yes, remote hooking does guarantee you pressure.
It guarantees you hook faster, it guarantees the person is dying sooner, it guarantees that other survivors will need to react sooner, it also guarantees you are off and finding people quicker. The sheer act of accelerating the process of hooking means you are guaranteed to accelerate the subsequent parts of the game.It is not a question of if this happens - it always happens when you use the remote hook ability and it saves you time.
You argue the time saved is negligible, but as shown above, even in the most beneficial conditions where I'm letting you set the times without much dispute, the raw time saved (which excludes my time value logic) still nears the value of the top meta gen regression perks (6 vs 9 seconds). It also does that without their limitations (4x use for Pain res), easier use conditions (down + scourge hook for Pain, down + travel + gen kick for Pop). And I repeat, that I'm still excluding the other 3 benefits remote hooking gives to offset passive 0.25c/s regression - benefits that I'm certain will exceed its value.
So basically only thing that is affected is a survivor for your next chase, that's it. Noother survivor is really affected by it, they can keep doing whatever they want.
So the person on the hook isn't dying sooner than if they were hooked normally? The other two also don't feel the need to rescue the person faster? They're okay with letting them hit second stage or die?
There's no possibility that the chased survivor is leading the killer away from the hook, which is standard practice, and likely closer to the objectives of the other two survivors, or at least running past them?I suppose they can do what they want.
With that logic, I guess they could be in a locker with Left Behind and a purple key, waiting for everyone else to die. It's another minimal value argument that affects everything - not just remote hooking.I can make it work. Killer's time is 1:1. Survivor's time is 1:4.
I don't understand this, what is killer's 1:1 a ratio to?
You're saying 1 second of his time is equal to 1 second of… whose time?Likewise, I'm not sure what the 1:4 ratio is insinuating.
You're saying 1 second of a survivor's time is equal to 4 seconds of… whose time?If killer is wasting time, there is no other killer to progress the game / slow the game for you.
If 1 survivor does nothing, other three can keep working on gens / healing. So progress of that side is not halted. You can't say that for killer…This is the answer I was looking.
You're right, if the killer is wasting time, there is no one else to slow the progress of the game.
Meanwhile if a survivor is doing nothing, there's the potential for 3 others to still be doing something.So if survivor A was keeping the killer occupied for 30 seconds, both survivor A and the killer lose that 30 seconds equally.
However, survivor's B, C, and D can, by your own words, 'keep working on gens / healing. So progress of that side is not halted.'Another way to look at is, even though survivor A and the killer are busy for 30 seconds, survivors B, C, and D have been totally free and potentially progressed the game by 90 seconds in that same time frame. That was the primary (and appropriate) response against the argument to 'just extinguish the boon!' from the old boon debates. It's also the 1:4 time ratio that my logic was based around early in this conversation.
There's two ways to look at this that I find helpful.
—
Option #1 (interesting view):
The killer is at an innate disadvantage in terms of quantity of time spent on the map by nature of its role, since they're outnumbered 1 to 4. The reason this game works despite those odds, and the reason killers have such a high win-rate by the data (60%), is because this difference time quantity is balanced out by time quality. The killer's time is, by design, more impactful than survivors.
A killer's time is so impactful that every second a killer spends needs to be worth roughly 4 seconds of a survivors time just to break even with them doing anything on the map. That's not just a theory, it's a rule - it has to be. It does not matter how it's achieved, but the killer must have enough agency and strength to either propel its own time quality to match that of the collective survivor group, or to bring their time quality down so their total quantity matches his level. If killer doesn't, they would be overwhelmed. By that logic, a killer's time has to be worth roughly 4x more than a survivor's time.
Option #2 (simple view):
Every second the killer is doing something, the survivors are doing 4 seconds worth of something else.
If you take a second to do something that disrupts 4 people, that's 4 seconds worth of disruption occuring (1:4 ratio).—
That's why I multiplied the time saved value by 4 for remote hooking, but not for regression perks.
Regression perks just reduce the progress and time of a single generator that only affects, really, one person. Hit a gen for 9 seconds? One person reverses that in 9 seconds, or maybe 2 duo it in 5 seconds.
Remote Hook though?
That ~6 second rest period when carrying a survivor after downing? Gone - no survivor gets it.
The hooked survivor's timer starts 6 seconds earlier.
The chased survivor is found and chased 6 seconds earlier.
The rescuer, even if they don't leave the gen immediately, has to do so 6 seconds sooner when they eventually choose to.
The fourth survivor? Could be repairing, could be interrupted - who knows? Who cares?The main point is that you deprive survivors of 6 seconds of time they would otherwise have free reign on (you're occupied, you can't stop them). Not only that, you're putting pressure on them sooner. You're being proactive and forcing them to act sooner. Unlike gen regression, you aren't affecting one person - you're affecting everyone.
Not only that, but there was no restrictions to remote hooking. No limits. You could do it every hook if you wanted to - keep the pressure up indefinitely without a break. That still doesn't include the value of save reduction, nor walking back from a hook. It doesn't matter what killer you play, or who makes best use of it, that benefit was always present, and is always strong.
There's a reason why kill rates increased by, what was it, 10% on nightlight during the event?
Though, honestly, I'm sure remote pallet breaking had a large hand in that too (man I hated that event)But yeah, I stand firm in saying it was so broken.
So can you explain to me why, without relying on anecdotal evidence, that Pop or Pain's (you choose) raw 9 seconds of time saved on a single generator is so vastly superior to remote hooking generously low-balled 6 seconds of time saved with easier use conditions?
Because extra time on gens have bigger impact on the game than just time related only to the killer.
Either gen is finished or not. If it is finished, there is nothing you can do it.
If you want to count additional times than pain res also gives you information in some situations, passive regression and you also save time on walking to the generator and kicking it. It also guarantee effect on most progress gen. Funny thing about pain res if there is no gen to lose progress, then you keep that stack.
Pop can be used exactly same amount of times as remote hooking. Effective values change -> same as remote hooking.
You're quick to criticize my logic, but I've yet to see you offer an alternate logical view point that extends past 'that's how it works' or 'everything sucks if you can't use it.'
I have explained my reasoning several times in those walls of text.
It's a risk, not a limit.
It is limit, if you don't want to use it in all situations.
Btw I forget about best example. How is remote hooking so broken when it exists on the killer in DBD as secondary power? Pyramid head has arguably better version, because it enables ultra tunneling, it's faster and actually unlike remote hooking prevents any possible save. Yet he is not even close to best killer in DBD.
If people continually rush down your position without a break, I guarantee you'll feel more pressure than if they did it in bursts that allowed for breathing room.
Doesn't really work here, when the position needs to be actually valued for this to work.
At the point of using remote hooking, survivors already had time to take whatever positions they wanted.
Unlike FPS in DBD for killer there is no high ground, or good cover. In FPS games you take position and play from there, often stay in that area. That doesn't really exist in DBD, unless your position is 3-gen, but preferably you are already there at that point...
If the killer is repeatedly running down the survivors without break periods (which is the carry period), that's increased pressure.
No, it gives opening to gain pressure. Real time value, so around 6 seconds, no multiplied value. That itself doesn't give any pressure to you. You have to actually use that time efficiently for it to matter and most killers are simply incapable of doing so.
That's why I multiplied the time saved value by 4 for remote hooking, but not for regression perks.
I get the reasoning, but it doesn't make sense to compare it with any real time values. Those units are simply not same.
And I already explained why it doesn't make sense to exclude slowdown perks several times.
Regression perks just reduce the progress and time of a single generator that only affects, really, one person. Hit a gen for 9 seconds? One person reverses that in 9 seconds, or maybe 2 duo it in 5 seconds.
That's not true. If survivors are not able to leave through gates because gens are not finished. Then all survivors are affected. It's not like only that single survivor is not able to leave.
That ~6 second rest period when carrying a survivor after downing? Gone - no survivor gets it.
The hooked survivor's timer starts 6 seconds earlier.
The chased survivor is found and chased 6 seconds earlier.
The rescuer, even if they don't leave the gen immediately, has to do so 6 seconds sooner when they eventually choose to.
The fourth survivor? Could be repairing, could be interrupted - who knows? Who cares?
So are teleporting powers broken? Dredge, Sadako, Freddy? That saves a lot of time on map traversal. Is limited only by duration of the game (that's why slowdown matters more). Yet those are either average or weak killers. Which doesn't make sense how much of their time they save.
Yet with powers that keep survivors from gens, their kill rate is usually way higher. So Pig, or Pinhead.
All I am trying to explain to you that personal time saved for killers is simply less important than additional time for survivors. Even then I compare those 1:1, there is no reason to multiply anything.
We can see that logic in other perks and killer powers. There is no reason why same pattern wouldn't work for remote hooking.
No limits
Of course there is a limit. Same as pop has. You don't get infinite hooks....
And you had cooldown on that btw. You couldn't spam event powers as you wanted. How is that not a limit? Cooldown was also shared, so you couldn't use it after enduring or pallet breaking. That's quite a big limitation.
There's a reason why kill rates increased by, what was it, 10% on nightlight during the event?
It increased in last event too, yet remote hooking wasn't there. Almost as pallet breaking was bigger deal for most killers…
You really want to compare remote hooking with pallet breaking? Pallet breaking saves time on breaking pallets to remove a resource from survivors, often ends chase instantly, because survivor couldn't leave the loop. Remote pallet breaking actually helps you progress in the game, because pallets are limited resource for survivors and it actually helps you to down survivors.
It's funny to think remote hooking was a reason for higher kill rate.
But yeah, I stand firm in saying it was so broken.
It wasn't...
As a perk even without cooldown with small delay to fix ping issues, it wouldn't be even close to meta. I would use probably only on Nurse and Blight.
You think remote pallet breaking as a perk wouldn't become instantly meta for all M1 killers?
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Definitely not two seconds fatigue, that's broken...
I would definitely like Frenzy to work on oblivious survivors and during undetectable. Just make it flat range based...
It would allow lot of new builds on Legion.
Otherwise I don't really have need for movement speed / duration changes. They could change it by some smaller numbers, but you need to be careful about it so Legion can't reliably get 5th hit...
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@Beaburd said:
This debate is getting a bit lengthy and repetitive, so I'll attempt to shorten it a bit.
No, your claim is the remote hooking as mechanic is broken. When it's not true for other perks with same or better effect, it doesn't make sense why it would work like this.
Because I understand the difference between saving time and slowing/getting time back.
Devour Hope, Undying, MYC, Flood of rage is decent build, all about saving time. But it's simply not good overall.
We're just going in circles at this point.
Yes, the perks you mention here are not meta - they are not the strongest.
The effects are good, the potential time-saving value is great, but they are inconsistent due to their innate perk flaws that were intentionally designed to inhibit their strength. One is a hex, the other has a cool-down, an exposure limit, and the general need to find an extremely alert survivor who may be getting body blocks.There are so many conditions to the perks you list that Remote Hooking does not have, that it's disingenuous to compare them.
Imagine if Devour Hope wasn't a hex and all tokens were permanent? Or what if MYC had no cool-down and the exposure was permanent? Suddenly these perks become overpowered and unfair right? I'd be surprised if you said no.
That's the degree their restrictions inhibit the perks effects and overall power. Remote Hooking does not have these abnormal restrictions. The best argument for its restrictions are downing somebody, but that's anything but abnormal, since it happens in every game.
Sure, you can bring up the minimal value argument again, where you could get no hooks in a game, like below:
Effect is simply not as strong for it to be better than perks that actually do something for you. Remote hooking does something only of you are able to perform well even without any help from the perk....
But then that argument applies to everything and provides no value to the conversation.
Otherwise Pop/Pain must be terrible since they '[do] something only if you are able to perform well even without any help from the perk.' But that's not true, is it?
It does affect each killer differently. Remote hooking is not strong on killers with low lethality, they can't efficiently use the time it gives.
It's good only on killer who can get a down quickly from start of the game and keep downing survivors reliably. That's why I think it would be best for Blight.
Comparing who can utilize time the most efficiently is just a killer balance issue, and doesn't say much to the overall strength of remote hooking itself.
Is ~10 seconds saved on Blight more valuable than an immobile and relatively weak killer like Myers? Sure.
Does that make remote hooking more valuable on Blight than Myers? Again, sure.But how does remote hooking compare to the other options Myers has? Does Myers have many other outstanding options that would exceed the value of remote hooking? Just because other killers are innately stronger than him and therefore use the perk more efficiently, does that mean it's a bad perk on him? Arguably no to all of those questions. He has 4 perk slots to boot, so I would not be surprised if remote hooks like in the event found their way into his build.
The really important questions here are:
- How does the perk/feature perform relative to an individual killer's other options?
- How does that same perk/feature rank among all killer's preferred perk/feature options?
Remote hooking, especially as it was in the event, is such a strong effect that if made into a perk, I am certain it would find itself into nearly everyone's build. Why? Because the value is high, the consistency is there, its generally useful on everyone, and there's no downsides that I can think of. That is incredibly strong, and I would say broken.
Support for my theory here can also be found in the event itself. These abilities were specifically designed to be as inclusively useful and strong as possible for all killers, so as not to exclude anyone from their use. The fact they designed them for the express purpose that everyone would use them, especially as an alternative to remote pallet breaking (which we both agreed previously is nuts in itself) is support for the idea that remote hooking is strong and everyone would continue to use them if given the chance.
Ideal scenerio is gen regressing to 0....
Yes, which would take 5 minutes of none of the 4 survivors touching the generator in that time to reduce to 0.
I personally thought that swayed away from the ideal scenario and more into a unrealistic one.
If you want to include it, that's fair, but keep in mind I excluded other time-saving factors of remote hooking out of convenience which I'd then have to include. Such as:- Traveling back from a hook
- The other 3 hook stages after the first 8 (before someone dies)
- Time value related to preventing (or reducing) saves
I have a good hunch that the time value of the above 3 scenarios exceeds that of the passive 0.25c/s regression though. Then again, that would imply you believe in my logic on how to calculate time value, which I don't think you do.
Oh right, because remote hooking made it so you got to actually use that time for anything valuable. Not really.
For most killers 6 seconds per hook is nothing. Especially if you are not slowing the game down with other perks.
Look at it this way, those 6 seconds you saved from remote hooking, if you use it to kick a gen means only 1.5 charges on generator from regression. That's nothing...
Your value amount (x4) is irrelevant compare to real time. Real time in the game is what matters and is difference between winning and losing. Slowdown perks affect real time value of the game. That's why they will always be better.
Why are you using your time to kick a generator that you yourself admit does nothing without the appropriate supportive perk to amplify this decision choice in the first place?
It would be my hope that you would use the time saved by remote hooking to find and pressure survivors faster, instead of doing actions that give no benefit. The time saved, which I'm very generously accepting as 6 seconds to prevent separate debate, is only useful if you're being proactive.
One of the benefits of time-saving features like Remote Hooking is it enables you to make plays sooner. But if you waste that time doing actions that don't benefit you, like kicking a generator for no reason, then of course it won't provide value. As soon as you remote hook, use that time to pressure the map - chase someone. Can't find anyone? Go search the gens.
Every second you spend on the map being proactive with the time you saved, is an extra second you forced people off gens into that awkward hooked/chase/rescue and/or heal/misc scenario where the only person getting anything done is potentially the 'misc' party. In solo queue, there's a good chance they're not doing anything either because you're nearby or they think they have to rescue too; but even if that last person is repairing, that's still one second worth of pressure on everyone else for each second you started this process sooner.
As a side note:
I still find it funny how I used to watch arguments about the killer's time being 4x more valuable than survivors when people talked extinguishing boons but here it's simply irrelevant. I'm not saying you argued that, but I did find it funny. I guess different strokes for different folks.Preventing Sabo saves. It just was possible to fleshlight save against it, in my experience pallet save worked too, but hard to prove now...
You know where I stand with this, but it's anecdotal evidence on both sides so there's no point arguing it.
That said, you did state saving was more difficult against remote hooking earlier as the window is at least smaller. Although my belief is the killer needs to mess up for it to be possible, at the very least the increased difficulty and reduced chance of a save still has value that I felt the need to point out. Even if neither of us can/have quantified that value.
They are not matching it, they are way better.
Your value is just a theory concept. It doesn't work when you try to compare it with real time values.
I hear this claim, but you haven't explained to me why other than just repeatedly stating it.
You've been lowering the amount of time remote hook gives to a theoretical average (6 seconds), which I haven't dispute since that's another debate. Since we're doing averages though, I'll use the half-way point on a gen for my theoretical average for pain/pop (45 * 0.2 = 9).
How is the 9 seconds of average gen damage by Pain or Pop, that affects a single generator on any single proc so superior to the 6 seconds saved off hook time? Unless you're running around kicking generators without any gen kick perks or otherwise wasting time, that time 6 seconds of killer time saved will at least affect:
- The hooked individual by giving them 6 seconds less time to be in a game
- The next survivor to be chased, who gets found 6 seconds earlier
- The rescuer, who has to stop repairing 6 seconds earlier to rescue/heal
- Potentially the 4th survivor who might want to rescue as well, or get involved with the chase 6 seconds earlier
You're killing the hooked survivor faster, you're finding people faster, you're forcing unhooks faster which in turn reduces hook state and progress faster - you're accelerating and pressuring the game faster.
That 9 second regression seems to fail in comparison, as it will only affect the survivor who is or will be repairing it next. Yes, it can passively regress at a rate of -0.25c/s afterwards; but that's still going to take another 60 seconds of no one repairing it to bring it up to 24 seconds of time gained for the killer, which is the same amount of collective time the game accelerated by with remote hooking just then.
if you I block all gens, or regress a gens that were finished in the end, then it does affect all players in the game. So they should be multiplied too.
Sorry, I don't know what this is referring to or asking.
If you compare time saved equally, remote hooking is just not even close, yet alone "broken".
Please show me how, because I do not see this light yet.
Basically if you are falling behind, then remote hooking does nothing for you. It's usually simply win more perk.
If you're falling behind and struggling to gets hooks, then hook-based regression perks do nothing for you either - I don't see the argument here.
Funny is the outcome when you need specific hook, for example Hag inside 3-gen, and remote hooking sends the survivor behind you. What of those perks actually is able to lose you a time?
Just like slugging and scourge hooks have a risk and a trade off, so does remote hooking.
By all means, if you want to run hook-specific set-ups and are afraid of this outcome of a wrong hook - don't use it.
Likewise, if you are running scourge hooks and are afraid someone will sabotage the hook you need, I recommend you don't use it.
Or if you're not confident that you can chain down people, I recommend you don't slug.These options aren't weak because they have innate risks and limits - they're still strong.
They just risks and scenarios you have to gauge and play around, which makes the game interesting.If you want to use the minimal value argument where nothing has value if it doesn't work though, again, we can do that for literally everything in the game. Even a nurse blink is useless if you can't land it.
I think overall you are not looking at this correctly. Whole idea about multiplying saved time by 4 is weird. Killer's time is matching real time 1:1
I'd love to know your stance on the old boon/extinguish argument from old then.
Since killer and survivor time is valued in a 1:1 ratio, which side do you think loses the trade when a boon is placed and subsequently extinguished? Is it the survivor who spent 14 seconds placing it, or the killer who spent 14 seconds finding and extinguishing it?Since the time value is a 1:1 ratio, surely the repeated action of setting up a boon and extinguishing it in the same amount of time it took to set up has a net neutral impact on the game, right?
I think you underestimate the value that each second saved has in the killer's favor.
Maybe it's best to agree to disagree then.
This debate is getting a bit lengthy and repetitive, so I'll attempt to shorten it a bit.
You failed at that aspect…
I have a good hunch that the time value of the above 3 scenarios exceeds that of the passive 0.25c/s regression though. Then again, that would imply you believe in my logic on how to calculate time value, which I don't think you do.
I don't because it doesn't make sense and you need to translate the time into some real time action. Gen regression is one of them. Chase is another aspect, 6 seconds from average chase is not really a big deal.
if you I block all gens, or regress a gens that were finished in the end, then it does affect all players in the game. So they should be multiplied too.
Your theory say any time killer saved is 4x time more valuable than slowdown perk that affects 1 gen. Which is flawed. Any slowdown is as valuable as how many survivors affect it.
The game doesn't end until survivors leave through gate. Slowdown perks extend the overall time of game, so it has to affect everyone, it's not just one gen. It's all players.Argument about one gen would work only if you pop a gen and survivors never finish that specific gen, then it didn't give any value. If survivors are going to finish it, then it affected whole game, because they did it slower than were supposed to. Which gave you time to do anything you wanted and in most cases way more than just 6 seconds….
If you compare time saved equally, remote hooking is just not even close, yet alone "broken".
Your time comparison seems better because of your multiplying system, which is simply incorrect. If you compare it as real time value, which is only thing that matters for killer, it's falling behind.
For example you asked about Surge before. That is 7 seconds per gen that triggers + any regression after it + notification, which works on any basic attack downs, without cooldown. Remote hooking for M1 killers is simply not valid compare to effect of Surge.If you're falling behind and struggling to gets hooks, then hook-based regression perks do nothing for you either - I don't see the argument here.
That's not true, single trigger of pop/pain res on 1/2 gens left is actually a big deal and is definetly something to give you chance for comeback. Because it gives you more time to do something with it (not 6 seconds)….
I can't say that for remote hooking.Just like slugging and scourge hooks have a risk and a trade off, so does remote hooking.
So there is a limitation even for remote hooking…
I'd love to know your stance on the old boon/extinguish argument from old then.
I think you underestimate the value that each second saved has in the killer's favor.
Thing is you need to put pressure on as many survivors possible to win the game and removing boons didn't give you any. 4 survivors could do whatever they wanted in that time.
Remote hooking doesn't create pressure, it gives you option to do so slightly faster, but it doesn't guarantee it. You have pressure from downing, but remote hooking had nothing to do with it. So basically only thing that is affected is a survivor for your next chase, that's it. No other survivor is really affected by it, they can keep doing whatever they want.
That's kinda why all perks should compare real time values, not imaginary amount from theory.Since the time value is a 1:1 ratio, surely the repeated action of setting up a boon and extinguishing it in the same amount of time it took to set up has a net neutral impact on the game, right?
I can make it work. Killer's time is 1:1. Survivor's time is 1:4. If killer is wasting time, there is no other killer to progress the game / slow the game for you.
If 1 survivor does nothing, other three can keep working on gens / healing. So progress of that side is not halted. You can't say that for killer…Maybe it's best to agree to disagree then.
For sure
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I don't really miss it.
Hook grabbing plays were equal to Dead hard "mind game", or Spine chill.
You could play around it, but it's unnecessary annoying.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Deja Vu doesn't really need a nerf in any capacity. 6% Gen Speed bonus is not all that significant at all.
I don't think it needs a nerf, it's most noob friendly gen rushing perk...
But I also wouldn't underestimated value of the perk. There's a reason why it's so highly picked in all skill level groups.
You save time by not looking for gens too, which can be especially good on indoor maps. It can be difficult to locate best 3-gen there to break it early.
That gen speed is also increasing on value against killers with lot of gen regression perks.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756957#Comment_3756957
You're right. Didn't catch that.
The perk gets 1 token the first time a survior is hooked. Exits blocked for 15 seconds per token when a gate is opened. The perk deactivates when there is only 1 remaining survivor. Fixed.
Not really,
you realize that's by working this way, it's best use is going to be camping last survivor in end game, right? That's simply really bad idea.
When they reach the gate, most of them are injured. This perk would singlehandedly give me 4k on completely lost game...
It would create bad experience for whole team in winning game instead of 1 player in completely lost game. That's just bad design...
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@Beaburd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756722#Comment_3756722
For my own benefit and understanding I need to re-orient through a quick summarization of past events.
- I originally started arguing remote hooking is broken due to the total time saved with each remote hook
- I calculated the theoretical maximum value of remote hooking and compared it to the value of other perks to quantify its relative strength (compared to Pop and SFTBFL)
- You argued that, if time saved were so important, especially under my logic, then chase perks would be some of the strongest
- You brought up an example with the time value saved on 'Make Your Choice' using my logic to showcase the potential flaws with the logic
- I ended up agreeing with the calculations and saying the perks you listed, including the 'Make Your Choice' perk have very strong effects. In the case of the ideal MYC scenario, it did rival remote hooking.
- I also noted that all of the strongest perks in your list had restrictions that were designed to specifically make them less reliable due to their innate strength, and was ready to argue that removing the inconsistencies in their designs (to make it comparable with the consistency of Remote Hooking), would instantly make them meta (i.e. top tier, most used, the best)
- There is also the argument by you, weaved throughout this debate, that gen control or regression perks are the strongest perks and that restoring time lost is more valuable than saving time
Unless I'm missing something in that summary, I'll start responding now:
They are strong, but not broken, or even near best if you talk about generic killer perks. They are usually good only for selected killers.
It's not really that strong when it is good only on few killers
Doesn't this prove my point though?
We both acknowledge that the listed chase perks, whose value comes from saving time (like remote hooking), are strong. No dispute on my end there.
For the second half of the quote I'm assuming you're arguing that, despite being strong, they are not broken nor the best because 'they are usually good only for selected killers.' I would also agree with this statement, because why would a Nurse need bamboozle? Or Huntress/Trickster/Deathslinger need Spirit Fury + Enduring? Why would anyone want Blood Favor when it can be cleansed at the start of a match?
However these killer-specific limitations, or the perk restrictions themselves don't apply to Remote Hooking because it doesn't have them. These perk strengths are just a proxy to argue for the strength of remote hooking, but remote hooking doesn't actually have the weaknesses that limit the viability of these strong perks.
If anything, it sounds to me, and I would agree, that you're saying that these perks comparable in value to Remote Hooking are very strong but they are not broken specifically because they have these limitations holding them back. However if we removed Blood Favor's issue of inconsistency (i.e. it's no longer a hex perk), Coupe's issue of inconsistency (effect controllable by the killer, not the survivor), and ignored some killers outright not getting value out of some perks (nurse/bamboozle), aren't these perks immediately peaking the perk strength charts and becoming meta?
That last question is particularly important because Bamboozle and Spirit Fury/Enduring, the perks without significant restrictions that provide great value, actually are meta (i.e. the best) on the killers who can use them effectively. So I think that gives support to the idea that, without those conditions holding the chase perks back, yes, these perks would be some of the strongest in the game.
The reason I bring that up is because Remote Hooking, the feature of the perks who you chose to represent, is not a hex. It is controllable by the killer. Every killer can get value from Remote Hooking. The same limitations that existed on the aforementioned chase perks that provide similar maximum value to Remote Hooking but hold them back from being broken, do not apply to Remote Hooking, since it does not have them. Remote hooking is just a free effect, by itself, with no impactful restrictions, and with a similar massive time saved value as these other perks who have to be held back by conditions to keep them from being overbearing.
I can't help but think this supports my argument on how strong Remote Hooking is, because the perks that give similar value are/can be equally overbearing but are only restrained by their innate restrictions - none of which Remote Hooking has.
That's why I picked Wraith. He can reliably get that. Even just two downs would in theory match the time saved by remote hooking, yet it's nowhere near as effective compare using Surge on Wraith.
Putting aside my logic as to the value of time saved for a moment (since it would inflate MYC's numbers, but not Surge's) and just looking at the raw numbers:
Surge is about 7 sec shaved off each gen it hits per down. MYC, using your own numbers, shaved off 40 seconds per chase/down?I'm actually a little curious what logic you use to determine Surge is more effective than MYC, especially since you've stated you can reliably get MYC procs with Wraith.
Even on killers they [chase perks] are consistent, they are niche. Survivors have a counterplay against it.
Yes, that's the point I wanted to make.
Chase perks are strong because of the time saved, but are not broken because of their niche uses/limitations/restrictions/counter-play, which Remote Hooking doesn't have. See first section (under summary) above for details.
Exactly same counterplay against remote hooking. If survivors prevent your downing/picking up, you won't get any value.
Okay now I'm a bit lost, because we're back to using minimum values as an argument as to why remote hooking isn't good.
This isn't a valid argument though because nearly everything has a minimum value of 0 in this game if you can't use it. Pain Resonance and Pop must be terrible perks, even pre-nerf, because they also do nothing if a survivor prevents you from downing or picking someone up. Hex: Pentimento + Plaything must be equally awful for the same reason.
Using this logic, everything must suck because you can get 0 value out of it.
What's good then?All it does is saving few seconds when you manage to hook a survivor.
This is very valuable though, as supported by the chase perks you chose to represent Remote Hooking.
We agreed they were strong, even meta in some cases, but not broken due to their limitations - limitations that if removed, arguably do make them even more meta/broken. Limitations Remote Hooking does not have.
I can match that time easily with any slowdown perk. With those unless it's just blocking type it can increase in value without really a limit per game.
I hear this claim, but I still don't see the logic behind it.
Slowdown perks, like Pain Resonance or Pop, reactively affects one gen per down/hook.
Remote hooking by itself indirectly affects every gen by proactively getting multiple people off them sooner.The raw time saved by those slowdown perks in an ideal scenario vs 99% gens (~18 sec each?) is matched by the time saved of the killer in an ideal scenario (16 sec wiggle timer). The main difference is how many people get affected, with one generator being reactively affected with slowdown perks, and 2-3 people's generators being proactively affected by Remote Hooking.
Yes, regression perks are also accompanied by passive regression (0.25c/s I think?), but right now I'm still neglecting the value of preventing saves, the time it takes killers to walk back after traveling in that ideal scenario, and the time value of the person being hooked sooner. Pain reso is also limited to 4 hooks, and Pop requires travel time -further lowering their values which I did not include. I could include those restrictions here though, because they are not a proxy for Remote Hooking, they are the direct meta perks we're comparing strength to.
I just don't see how slowdown perks are even close to being equal to the value of Remote Hooking, never-mind matching it.
Doesn't this prove my point though?
No, your claim is the remote hooking as mechanic is broken. When it's not true for other perks with same or better effect, it doesn't make sense why it would work like this.
Remote Hooking because it doesn't have them.
It does affect each killer differently. Remote hooking is not strong on killers with low lethality, they can't efficiently use the time it gives.
It's good only on killer who can get a down quickly from start of the game and keep downing survivors reliably. That's why I think it would be best for Blight.
I really wouldn't use it on killers where I don't expect to stay at 5 gens for long....
Pain Resonance and Pop must be terrible perks, even pre-nerf, because they also do nothing if a survivor prevents you from downing or picking someone up.
Actual effect of those perks is way above remote hooking, yet those perks are not broken...
Hex: Pentimento + Plaything must be equally awful for the same reason.
Well, it's definitely not meta....
I'm actually a little curious what logic you use to determine Surge is more effective than MYC, especially since you've stated you can reliably get MYC procs with Wraith.
Because I understand the difference between saving time and slowing/getting time back.
Devour Hope, Undying, MYC, Flood of rage is decent build, all about saving time. But it's simply not good overall. If you don't slow survivors in any way and have no way to get time back, your time is very limited. That's how DBD works…
That's why saving time is simply not as valuable as you try to claim.
Limitations Remote Hooking does not have.
Effect is simply not as strong for it to be better than perks that actually do something for you. Remote hooking does something only of you are able to perform well even without any help from the perk....
Slowdown perks, like Pain Resonance or Pop, reactively affects one gen per down/hook.
Remote hooking by itself indirectly affects every gen by proactively getting multiple people off them sooner.
No, pop and pain res, all slowdown perks are going to make the game last longer. That's the time you are supposed to compare. That time matters for all players including yourself.
Time saved in reality affects only you and the person you hooked (not much) and person you are about to chase next. All other survivors are not affected by it and keep progressing.
ideal scenario vs 99% gens (~18 sec each?)
Ideal scenerio is gen regressing to 0....
Look at it this way, those 6 seconds you saved from remote hooking, if you use it to kick a gen means only 1.5 charges on generator from regression. That's nothing...
Your value amount (x4) is irrelevant compare to real time. Real time in the game is what matters and is difference between winning and losing. Slowdown perks affect real time value of the game. That's why they will always be better.
For pop/pain res etc. to be their time irrelevant, survivors need to not finish that generator at all, if they does then it slowed all other survivors too, because they didn't get to leave…
the value of preventing saves
Preventing Sabo saves. It just was possible to fleshlight save against it, in my experience pallet save worked too, but hard to prove now...
Sabo / bodyblocking is not every game thing, not even close.
Pop requires travel time -further lowering their values which I did not include
Oh right, because remote hooking made it so you got to actually use that time for anything valuable. Not really.
For most killers 6 seconds per hook is nothing. Especially if you are not slowing the game down with other perks.
I just don't see how slowdown perks are even close to being equal to the value of Remote Hooking, never-mind matching it.
They are not matching it, they are way better.
Your value is just a theory concept. It doesn't work when you try to compare it with real time values.
If you I block all gens, or regress a gens that were finished in the end, then it does affect all players in the game. So they should be multiplied too.
If you compare time saved equally, remote hooking is just not even close, yet alone "broken".
It's wouldn't be even close in value to perks that either helps you finish your objective (finding/downing survivors), or increasing overall game time.
Basically if you are falling behind, then remote hooking does nothing for you. It's usually simply win more perk.
Funny is the outcome when you need specific hook, for example Hag inside 3-gen, and remote hooking sends the survivor behind you. What of those perks actually is able to lose you a time?
Or I need scourge hook, so basically need to get right in front of it and save like a second or two in reality...
If I care about hooking position, I would never pick this over Agitation....
I think overall you are not looking at this correctly. Whole idea about multiplying saved time by 4 is weird. Killer's time is matching real time 1:1
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That's a nerf overall for normal gameplay at least.
Even if you hooked every survivor, if you killed someone before last gen is finished you have by 20 seconds less time against 3 survivors. It also wouldn't work that well with remember me, but it would be amazing with blood warden....
Basically best use would be hard tunnel one survivor, then one hook each survivor to stay at 3 tokens. That doesn't seem as good design to me.
Instead of trying to pressure all survivors and end the game, this would be huge buff for camping last survivor. That's also very bad design.
I would still manage to get hatch situation anyway.
Kill one survivor, 0 tokens.
Hook all three 3 tokens, kill two 1 token left for hatch play.
I would just need to make sure not hook one survivor and probably slug them until I kill one survivor. Then I am sure to stay at 1 token.
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@Beaburd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756932#Comment_3756932
Maybe it's a personal failing of mine, but I do find it difficult at times to recall the exact locations of totems I saw early on, especially if I'm in a chase or my attention is otherwise diverted when the perk procs. Doubly so on those troublesome totem maps like RPD, Lerry's, Midwich, etc. where it can be hard to orient myself to better understand where I saw those totems relative to where I was standing a few minutes ago, and where I am standing when I need it.
And issues surrounding totem cleansing is general are always a problem, but disproportionately so for Detective's Hunch because you're relying on old information for current and future boon decision making. But that old information can easily become misleading because it encourages you to check general areas you saw a totem before, but it no longer exists because it was cleansed without your knowledge.
In contrast, every other method for totem detection gives you current and up-to-date information on totems, so you don't waste time running around for a broken totem for embarrassingly long periods of time (rip my trauma).
Then there's also the use-case where a killer performs so well early and I want that boon up ASAP to support resets; however, there's so much pressure no one is doing a generator. Another frustrating scenario where, when I really need good totem info, I get absolutely no benefit from Hunch.
Meanwhile maps + red twine? On-demand, baby - no worries.
I really wish Boon: Illumination, Still Sight, or another perk gave dull totem aura reading in a similar fashion.I always liked Detective's hunch so it basically helped me learn totem spawns even if killer didn't have any hex and information on gens is always handy.
But hey if you want it because of boon, then small game is probably best right now?
I would still use Detective's hunch, because I used to simply remember numbers as if I wanted to make clock system call outs. That's easy for me to find them after it.
And I usually play SWF, so just tell them to not touch totems I want and just tell them location of totem I don't care about.
Overall I think value of boons is way better for SWF than soloQ. Mainly CoH...
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@Beaburd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756919#Comment_3756919
My problem with Hunch is it's not on-demand and I can't control when I get the information.
It's fine and dandy early in the match, but picture when there's 1-2 gens left, 1 dead, and we need an aggressive boon near the objectives? Not exclusive to, but especially when it's a harsh totem map like Midwich.
Those are the scenarios where good boon placement and totem info is needed most, but Detective's Hunch is unfortunately useless there. I need the totem to help get the gen, but I need the gen to proc my perk, so I can boon a totem to help with gen - it's just a frustrating cycle that deters me from the perk entirely.
It gets even more annoying when you have a vague idea of where a totem is from Hunch (yay!) but someone cleansed it without your knowledge sometime throughout the game. I'm embarrassed to admit how much time I spent looking for a broken totem once LOL
So yeah, now I just use green maps + red twine when I want to boon.
Though I deseparately hope, one day, there will be a perk for on-demand dull totem aura reading so I can stop worrying about needing the item/add-ons.It's fine and dandy early in the match, but picture when there's 1-2 gens left, 1 dead, and we need an aggressive boon near the objectives?
You get to see all totems during the match, so that's just about memory. It's not difficult to remember generic location, so you at least know where to search. Not like totems are hard to find...
Teammates cleansing/blessings totems are an issue for all those perks, no?
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@jesterkind said:
I think my only real hope is that they try to avoid new perks in this update, so nothing from the last few chapters. That's the last few chapters as of right now, too, since we're probably getting at least one between now and then.
A lot of older perks could use the love more. Not only are there not all that many newer perks that really need the attention, but it'd also be a wasted opportunity to focus on the ones that do.
Kinda sucks with how many new perks are trash too...
Well, that's the issue when you release more bad perks than good / decent ones.
I have no idea how Undone got live. They have statistics on missed skill checks, so it had to be clear it's going to be useless.
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@Beaburd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756749#Comment_3756749
I use boons periodically, and prefer booning strategically around objectives rather than once in a remote corner of the map.
My main goal for these perks is so they'll be viable for my type of play-style as opposed to just being useful for hexes, especially so I can stop taking green maps with red twine (and no, I don't like detective's hunch).
For Counterforce, namely giving it blessing speed or making the totems aura permanent if it's a dull totem. For small game, increased range and a 0.5 aura on ping if it's a dull totem.
Though heck, I'm not opposed to hex buffs either.
I like totems in general so yeah, buff those too and bring 'em back.With your playstyle Detective's hunch seems better anyway.
You get to see both objectives (gens) and totems. So that would help you find best possible spot for boon.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756768#Comment_3756768
i think that is pretty much impossible. especially when you consider maps that shrinking in size, the accident spawn is more likely to occur and it is easier to check hex spots.
If anything, i would say that hiding hexes is bad because it creates exponential value instead of consistent value. You might have games where survivor spend like 9 minutes to find a hex and they still don't find the hex even after all that time. it creates larger extremes.
What is purpose of totem hunting perks when you make them so easy to find?
consistent value
There is no consistent value for hex perks now.
it creates larger extremes.
Never in DBD was a time where I would need that much time to find a hex totem.
Totems have pattern, as soon I find first, I can find rest of them. Indoor maps can make it more difficult tho.
i think that is pretty much impossible. especially when you consider maps that shrinking in size
It's really not so difficult. Just thinking about what direction totem is facing would be often enough.
If you want such useless spot as next to wall, at least make them face wall, not middle of the map...
There is no map where I wouldn't be able to create at least 10 decent spots where to put a totem.
It would be so easy to use spawn like is on Badham. You have those bushes creating a semi closed space with totem inside. You don't see to it unless you walk there. That would be enough.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756725#Comment_3756725
i see hexes more like pig boxes, if you had to go to every pig box, it still consumes time, even if you know where hex is. It is just that right now, most hexes have 1 life so it is not much time wasted.
Yeah, they are almost equally easy to find...
I believe totems should be hidden so survivors actually have to try find them, not do it by accident or spawn next to it.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756751#Comment_3756751
The first stage part was about your reply. Forget about the first stage.
That's reportable and bannable.
That's reportable and bannable.
Like it ever stopped players in any game from doing it.
Most players are lazy and won't create ticket for it anyway.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756742#Comment_3756742
To be honest I was imagining just walking up to broken totem, playing the stomp animation like Pentimento, which would activate the perk and show you the auras of dull totems. You then go to any totem and stomp again to get a refreshed version there which then permanently deactivates the perk. Seems a little too much effort when undying is in the game... although it does actually give you control of your hexes.
Although... kicking the totem back to life amuses me... like banging on a old TV set ot get it to work again xD
Probably not good enough as a perk since undying is the far easier way to achieve the same thing… although now we're thinking aboutvit... I don't think it would be a bad basekit mechanic where when the Killer equips hexes, and can see all totems at the start of the match. They can remotely then assign their hex totems themselves in the order they equipped them using the interact buttons.
Totems are killer items (at least according to map red twine), so having proper control over them seems reasonable.
Seems a little too much effort when undying is in the game
It's not really worse. Kinda more effort for better effect. So alternative to undying.
Issue would be totems need to be cleansed.
I can definitely see this perk, undying and devour hope....
It would be kinda busted with Devour Hope tho.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756745#Comment_3756745
I understand what you say, but basically it's a "free" attempt at 4% to be replaced by another player (a bot is still a player)
So basically the killer is penalized for the 4% attempt, fail or win.
What? I don't talk about 4% escapes in first stage.
And if player gives up on first hook, they would be useless in game anyway. So not really any value in keeping them there. You just risk they will actively try to sabotage their teammates.
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@Beaburd said:
If I had to pick 10 from each side?
Survivor:
- Better Than New
- Boon: Dark Theory
- Still Sight
- Mirrored Illusion
- Friendly Competition
- Hardened
- Left Behind
- Slippery Meat
- Ace in the Hole
- Up the Ante
Killer:
- Beast of Prey
- Blood Echo
- Dark Arrogance
- Deathbound
- Fire Up
- Hex: Thrill of the Hunt
- Leverage
- Hangman's Trick
- Undone
- Zanshin Tactics
Yeah, I'm disappointed how many newer perks I listed too.
—
Edit:
Honorable mentions to Small Game and Counterforce. Wouldn't mind slight buffs to those honestly.Honorable mentions to Small Game and Counterforce. Wouldn't mind slight buffs to those honestly.
You need to buff hex builds for those to be valid anyway. They were played during Noed and Ruin meta.
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@Rick1998 said:
trilling tremors could honestly just have it's cooldown removed and same for blood echo.
I would love to see that.
Never understood cooldown behind thrilling tremors...
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756496#Comment_3756496
I was only speaking about the suicide-on-hook phase.
That being said, attempting the 4% on the first phase will reduce the wait by 2 minutes so maybe both phases should be disabled.
Honestly I'm not too sure about what solution is best. I only know replacing suicide by bots isn't it. (And I perfectly accept mine isn't either.)
Replacement with bots is just a hot fix when survivor miss two skill checks in second phase.
I don't think there is better solution.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756737#Comment_3756737
Rough xD
A strong buff on 1 broken hex actually might be decent in that regards... one problem of hexes is you kinda have to all in on hexes a lot of the time to get value...
Would be nice if you could throw a single hex on a build and be reasonably sure to get value out of it, which something like this might help with 🤔
I was also toying with the idea initially before posting this thread of a recover mechanic. I ditched this thinking this suggestion was more appropriate, but a new perk that let's you recover a broken hex and the you can see all dull totems and can assign it to that totem (back at zero tokens) might be interesting. Would have to have special interactions for things like Two Can Play or Face The Darkness though…
NOED might be a problem though... but maybe fine since that's 2 perk slots just for end?
Don't think it would be too strong with NOED.
I guess you would need to do some action to restore it, no? So killer wouldn't be able to camping/keep pressuring survivors in endgame at that point.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756470#Comment_3756470
If all 5 totems are broken a 60s exposed would be a buff to basic attacks...
I mean you could do something like Devour Hope (maybe not quite as strong), same design where you grant more effects at each tier... which still bypasses the Pentimento problem...
The sweet spot would be 3 broken totems. As long as you have a strong buff there, then another strong one at 5, you've got a lot of perk potential 🤔🤔🤔🤔
Yeah, and my favorite hex build is not favorite anymore.
Had three games in one day where survivor spawned next to my ruin.... I really wanted to DC there.
I refuse to play hexes for month or two.
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@Beaburd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756583#Comment_3756583
I'm not going to dispute this claim, but can you name his weaknesses?
If nothing else, for the benefit of the original poster.
Don't let him vault windows or break pallets for free when he is cloacked is very good start and very annoying for Wraith. Just keep vaulting them, to just add extra few seconds on all of them.
Overall you can bodyblock in doorframes if you have good window / pallet nearby (shack).
Identify if he will manage to bodyblock your pallet/window before it actually happens. No reason to keep running in that direction if you get hit there anyway, unless you are healthy and want to hold W for stronger loop.
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Sounds as type of change that just makes killer terrible to play as. Definitely good way how to kill the killer.
Billy used to have reload mechanic, kinda. Wasn't really popular change, was it?
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Not really any killer in general, more like their specific add-ons / builds.
I hate Shackles Hag so much...
Tombstone piece Myers etc.
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I willing to play basically any killer except Pinhead and Pyramid head.
I don't think they are bad killers, but I am just terrible with their power and can't be bothered to learn them. They also doesn't have good skins / lot of them for me to try create combinations. I want to play Dead By Fashion with my killers...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
it goes against design of hexes. hexes are suppose to be secondary objectives for survivor where when a survivor does not do their secondary objective, they get punished with hex effect. the issue is that time needed to do said objective is too low on average. a single hex cleanse is too little time opportunity cost for survivor to remove the perk.
4 hexes gives a proper secondary objective but the killer is perkless. the cost is too high.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756375#Comment_3756375
there is only so many places to put a hex. eventually a survivor will find it, especially since hexes both glow and have distinct sound. I think survivors are suppose find hexes but destroying 1 hex shouldn't be the end. they should need destroy more then 1 totem to remove its effect. Hex Uindying does ok job at this but it is still a bit under-powered at keeping hex alive.
I am curious what is % chance that when a killer uses hex undying and another hex(two hex), how many games does this hex stay for entire game. I bet it is something extremely small like 5%.
The other stat i am curious about is. What is % life span of a hex in time that a hex survives? How long on average does it take for survivor to cleanse hex undying and the other hex if two hexes are used. I would wager 3 minutes-5 minutes. On average my hex when i use it feels like it goes away after 3 hooks. 3 hooks for me sounds about 3-4 minutes. in general, i think hexes need stay alive for around 6 minutes to create an impact.
I am curious what is % chance that when a killer uses hex undying and another hex(two hex), how many games does this hex stay for entire game. I bet it is something extremely small like 5%
Depends on what hex. Blood favor / Ruin? Probably not much, survivors are motivated to cleanse those and find about them fast…
Devour Hope? That number is probably going to increase, because it doesn't have warning and when it comes to effect, the game is likely to end.
there is only so many places to put a hex. eventually a survivor will find it
There used to be more locations where survivor had to actually check it to find the hex. I would put as example those spawns in The MacMillan Estate. Where you have like hook shape from boxes next to those bigger square structures. It's nothing really there, no reason to go there other than checking for hex.
I would want way more spawns like this. Put more totems on map edges too.
Also wouldn't be so difficult to think of a hex spawns when designing a map, no? But they ignore it completely and then put them literally next to a wall in open with no cover...
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@Beaburd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756561#Comment_3756561
Bamboozle, Spirit Fury + Enduring, Blood favor, coupe, any insta down perk.
Those perks allow me to completely skip one stage of looping. They often give me hit I wouldn't get otherwise.Yes, that's why everything you listed is incredibly strong?
Bamboozle is literally meta on a wide variety of killers (Wraith, Bubba, Myers, Lich, etc.)
Spirit Fury + Enduring is also up there in popularity, has been meta, and is still meta for some killers (Legion, M1 killers in general).
Blood favor is so strong it has to be a hex, which lowers its consistency.
Coupe's effect is innately strong as well, which is why it's tied to two restrictions (survivor gen pops + cannot control which lunge to use it on).So the first two are powerful and are literally meta for some killers, the other two are powerful but have restrictions that put their usefulness outside of the killer's control. I guarantee if you removed the restrictions of Blood Favor and Coupe to improve their consistency and reliability to be on the level of Remote Hooking, they'd immediately surge to be meta due to the time they save.
In my mind, this kind of just proves my point in how valuable saving/eliminating time is for the killer, which is exactly what I'm arguing is the problem with remote hooking.
I would say average chase for M1 killers would be around 50 seconds unless the survivor is at least decent and have good setup. So if I down a survivor after unhooking with Make your choice? I can do that under 10 seconds with Wraith.
So that would be 40 seconds x 4 = 160 seconds save. Yay, stonks. Best perk in the game. Well, not really.
This is a fun example actually.
I can't argue average chase time, so I'll take the 50 sec average chase time you proposed at face value and go with that. It sounds reasonable, I think? Any debate would devolve to anecdotal experience and he-said, she-said arguments anyway.
In that case though, yeah, if you get the proc, it is saving you up to 160 seconds of total game time in that ideal scenario using my logic. But isn't that reflected in the game state?
I don't know how that isn't strong actually.
You have the unhooked survivor injured, running far away for dear life for heals.
You have the exposed survivor instantly down and dying sooner than they otherwise would.
You have one person who now needs to rescue.
You have the last survivor either repairing or healing the first guy so they get downed by a stealth killer immediately after again.No one's able to do much, or anything productive in that time for that moment - that's an incredibly strong snowball.
Imagine if you got that every hook? Isn't that just gg?But that's the issue, it's not reliable to expect to get it every hook is it?
Most killers have trouble using it even once due since not many are stealth and survivors hear them coming, because chase time can be so long (50 sec on average, right?) that it times out the exposed effect, and survivors can body block anyway.
The most agile killer's are either insta-downers (Billy) and don't need it, or whose power hits don't proc exposed anymore (Nurse/Blight).Once again, I'd argue the time saved and effect itself of these exposed perks are extraordinarily good.
It's just these amazing time saves are plagued by inconsistencies to balance them. I'd also argue that's why you don't see them as much - not because the time they save is irrelevant - but because they're just so inconsistent.In contrast, barring few exceptions, gen regression perks are inferior with time saves, but give guaranteed value. Hook someone? Pain + Pop is yours, and you either get to control where it goes, or it goes to the most repaired gen to delay it, which is usually what you want anyway.
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I'm still convinced the time saved by remote hooking is blatantly OP, but after this discussion, I'm also convinced that a portion of my issue with it is how reliable and consistent it was in delivering that enormous value. Because you're right, in hindsight I do think some of these chase perks can give similar raw values to Remote Hooking, but I also don't have a problem with them because these perks have counter-play and are inconsistent in delivering that value. Unlike Remote Hooking, which has neither to unbearable degrees.
Try to apply this for information perks. How valuable is I managed to get into a chase with survivor, I normally wouldn't be able to find? That's definetly way more than 6 seconds…
I actually do think information perks are very valuable for this reason, and I have a hunch I'm not alone given the current arguments against Distortion + Weave Attunement + Lethal Pursuer + auras in general on chase killers.
Yes, that's why everything you listed is incredibly strong?
They are strong, but not broken, or even near best if you talk about generic killer perks. They are usually good only for selected killers.
which is exactly what I'm arguing is the problem with remote hooking
It's not really that strong when it is good only on few killers. For most killers in DBD pallet breaking was way bigger deal than remote unhooking. Time saved with those two is not even close.
But isn't that reflected in the game state?
Not really, if you play without perks to amplify value of downing survivors / hooking, then unless it is literally killing survivor, it doesn't impact game in major way.
Most killers have trouble using it even once due since not many are stealth and survivors hear them coming
That's why I picked Wraith. He can reliably get that. Even just two downs would in theory match the time saved by remote hooking, yet it's nowhere near as effective compare using Surge on Wraith.
I'd also argue that's why you don't see them as much - not because the time they save is irrelevant - but because they're just so inconsistent.
Even on killers they are consistent, they are niche. Survivors have a counterplay against it.
Exactly same counterplay against remote hooking. If survivors prevent your downing/picking up, you won't get any value. It won't help you with gens, it won't help you with actually downing survivors, it won't help you with finding survivors. It simply doesn't help you progress in game faster, nor slow survivors down.
All it does is saving few seconds when you manage to hook a survivor. I can match that time easily with any slowdown perk. With those unless it's just blocking type it can increase in value without really a limit per game.
Remote unhooking with small delay (0.2 sec) without cooldown wouldn't become meta perk. It wouldn't be bad, but there are definitely better perks for most killers.
I would play it probably on Blight, where I can just keep downing survivors fast, but that's about it.
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Does Dredge count for this?
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Yeah, I just got actually Leri's when I had Ruin. Well, survivor spawned next to it… It's a long time since I wanted to DC so much.
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@Beaburd said:
That's not true. You can say it makes pallet saves more difficult, because you can't screw up the timing, but it definitely was possible.
From what I understand, the moment you finish the animation to hoist someone up on your shoulder is the moment you are vulnerable to a save, but also it is the moment you can press the remote hook button. So if the killer times it correctly, the animation starts, and the hook goes through. In contrast, if they button mash or delay, then it's possible for a save window to eek out before the button press.
In that case, I do not think it is possible to save unless the killer messes up; but being reliant on your opponent messing up for 'counter-play' is a caveat you can extend to literally every argument in DBD which is why I excluded it.
If you want to use maximum time, then we can also say all survivors got downed next to a hook, which would be around 4 seconds of survivor's total time...
You're right, it can theoretically do absolutely nothing in some games, just like every other feature in the game.
The reason I brought up theoretical maximums is because most features, like perks, are hard capped as to the value they can deliver to a specified amount. Since every game is variable, these maximums are useful for gauging relative power to other similar time-saving features in the game. In fact, let's do that using a perk we already mentioned earlier: Pop Goes The Weasel.
Theoretical minimum? You don't hook, it does nothing.
Theoretical maximum? 11 hooks + gen kicks at 99.99% gen progress per gen is (11 * 0.2 * [90*.9999]) or ~198 seconds saved per match.
Compare that to the theoretical maximum of the remote hooks which were previously calculated at 512 seconds, over twice the value of Pop's ideal use-case, and the relative strength of the ability to remote hook should be apparent. For simplicity I didn't even include the time remote hooking saves when walking back from a hook to start exerting pressure, which has its own value (and is especially relevant on maps on Swamp, when you're forced to hook at the edge).
Slugging saves actually more time for killer than remote hooking. You don't need any animation, so is slugging broken?
Slugging is a unique case in that it takes double the time for someone to bleed out than if they were on a hook, does not count at all towards the time it takes to reduce their hook states (meaning unless the killer is fully bleeding them out or snowballs, they don't benefit from the down at all), and the user can recover/move on their own accord, minimizing the time burden on others to pick them up.
The reason it isn't overpowered is because of the above caveats. Slugging is literally just a gamble by the killer where they risk their last x time chasing to exert more pressure quickly on survivors in an attempt to overpower them. If the gamble fails, they lose everything they obtained prior.
Meanwhile, remote hooking allows the killer to exert that pressure as if they slugged, but without the risk to their prior progress since they get the hook anyway. Win/win for the killer with literally no downside in what's usually a risky move.
And your whole math is incorrect, simply because you calculate with 4 survivors. Well, just from that it's flawed, because you are hooking one survivor, his time is not really valid at that point.
The person being picked up, carried, and hooked, is still losing meaningful time though.
Whatever time the survivor had in being carried is removed from the game, which means they are on the hook sooner, their hook progresses faster, and their death will come sooner.
Example:
In a normal scenario:- Killer downs survivor A at time 0:00
- Killer takes 10 seconds to travel and hook survivor A, hooking them at time 0:10.
- Survivor A then has 60 seconds before reaching phase 2 at time 1:10
With remote hooking:
- Killer downs survivor A at time 0:00
- Killer takes 0 seconds to travel and hook survivor A, hooking them at 0:00
- Survivor A then has 60 seconds before reaching phase 2 at time 1:00
By losing the downtime during hooking, the hooked survivor might not be robbed of objective time like the other 3 survivors are, but they are still robbed of the extra amount of time they otherwise should have had before reaching another hook stage.
That time has value too, which is why I included it in the calculations.
Even if you ignore that value out of convenience, that's still 5-10 seconds robbed from each of the other 3 survivors, for a total of 15-30 seconds (depending if you use 5 or 10 sec hook time as an average) of survivor time lost per remote hook. With 8 remote hooks before anyone dies, the theoretical maximum value is 120 - 240 seconds over the course of a game.Notice I'm getting more and more favorable in my calculations for the benefit of the killer.
I'm doing that to showcase that the numbers are so absurd that I have room to be as lenient as you want me to be, and the value from remote hooking is still going to be absurd and exceed the max value you could get from most of any other killer perk/feature by far.In reality I could be including the time value of remote hook to 11 hooks (the max before the game ends), the return travel time when coming back from a hook for M1 killers, and especially the value of ignoring/reducing the chance of saves. Including all of that would be fair game for comparison purposes with the maximum benefits achieved from other killer time-saving perks/features.
What matters is gen time in this game. Your whole concept of saving so much time is flawed anyway.
If it worked like that, any chase perk is broken. That let's you down survivors faster, instead of hooking. But your concept here is exactly same. It doesn't hinder survivors, just saved time for killer.
I would love to know how it is flawed, and how you rationalize that, using my logic, every chase perk would be broken.
Let's look at Save the Best for Last with max stacks.
I think that's the best chase perk to check maximum potential value for?2.7 base wiping animation on hit, reduced to 1.836 seconds with 8 stacks of the perk, or a reduction of 0.864 seconds per hit.
The survivor would have ran an extra 3.456m in that time, which would have taken the standard 4.6m killer another 5.76 seconds to reach their position. My logic states that 5.76 seconds is 4x as valuable for the killer, so 23 seconds of game time saved per max stack hit if running in a straight line.
Let's give an unrealistic scenario where you get 10 max stack Save the Best hits in a game. I say unrealistic, because you don't typically start at max stacks and the obsession will likely reduce your stacks throughout the game. Still, the theoretical maximum value in this situation is then ~230 seconds of overall time saved. On par with the ideal Pop perk scenario, and substantially less (less than half) than remote hook's theoretical maximum.
Maybe I'm crazy, and I'm sure I'm innately biased, but the logic seems to work in my opinion.
If you have another example or a flaw to pick, please go for it.Bamboozle, Spirit Fury + Enduring, Blood favor, coupe, any insta down perk.
Those perks allow me to completely skip one stage of looping. They often give me hit I wouldn't get otherwise. How much value is that depends on a survivor. So basically from 15 seconds (I would say that's around time if you just hold W against M1 killer) to minute or two against good looper.I would say average chase for M1 killers would be around 50 seconds unless the survivor is at least decent and have good setup. So if I down a survivor after unhooking with Make your choice? I can do that under 10 seconds with Wraith.
So that would be 40 seconds x 4 = 160 seconds save. Yay, stonks. Best perk in the game. Well, not really.
It doesn't suddenly stop everyone else doing their actions. It didn't give me any time back on progress survivors already made.
Is saving time on killer's actions good? Yeah. Is it better than actual slowdown? Not even close
Try to apply this for information perks. How valuable is I managed to get into a chase with survivor, I normally wouldn't be able to find? That's definetly way more than 6 seconds…I would love to know how it is flawed, and how you rationalize that, using my logic, every chase perk would be broken.
If time saved would as effective as you claim, then the best build wouldn't be just stacking slowdown. You would stack information and chase perks to save as much of your time as possible on any actions.
You theory would mean the time saving perks for killer are more valuable than gen regression, which is simply not true. That's not how DBD works.
Basically time you saved on those perks actually matters only for next survivor your get to chase, no other survivor really cares about it, they get to progress in the game as usual.
Slowdown perks affect whole game. Until all gens are finished, all survivors are stuck there with a killer. -
@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756293#Comment_3756293
Disable suicide on hook. Replacing with bot would mean a survivor can attempt a 4% and if he fails, the team still has a bot.
Why not both? Your fix is for first stage, my fix is second stage give up.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
This is a bad idea in my opinion. A killer should never lose their addons.
Imagine all those new bugs we would get...
How the hell would mirror Myers work for example?
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756466#Comment_3756466
Actually, with Sadako - unless this changed in a recent patch, I've found she can tell when she put a Condemned stack on a survivor because their name will flash white. Which is something that happens whenever a survivor's status changes (any killer power applied/lost, health stage change.) I haven't played her in her current incarnation, but that always used to be a tracking tool on whether my teleports had a survivor nearby.
(It is range based again, but the range seems longer than it was in her OG version.)
Though to the OP, I think in Sadako's case, the obfuscation is intentional and there to prevent focusing/tunneling a survivor on high stacks. Whether or not that's necessary, or should be a thing, I don't really have an opinion. Might have made more sense back when a survivor holding a tape passively gained Condemned, might just have been because they were initially super timid about her Condemned mechanic and on release it was near-worthless. But then again, we had some pretty nasty condemn playstyles back then, too.
Alright, good to know.
I don't really like her, mostly because of heartbeat feature (she has lullaby). Doesn't really matter her lullaby is subtle, when survivors can simply see it...
I will rather pick Wraith, or Skully if I want to be sneaky. Sadako is just a noob stomper. Her new skin is awesome tho...
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756375#Comment_3756375
This. This is 90% of the problem right here. If you get a map like Midwich or Swamp or the Game or Lery's, you'll get hex value because your bones have Sneak 100 and even survivors who know all the spots will have to go on a scavenger hunt to find them. If you get a map like Ormond or MacMillan or Autohaven, your bones are gone before the camera's finished rotating because they're sitting across from gens when they're not out in the open sunbathing.
Predominant map design used to be totems spawned in lol obvious places, then they started getting sneakier for a while, and now they're back to lol obvious spots on the latest maps and reworks. Which is unfortunate. I'm hoping Midwich's rework doesn't ruin this, because RPD's rework changed several of its totem spots to be less sneaky.
I like Leri's totems. They definitely have a pattern and it's possible to find it, but on many spawns you have to actually look for the totem. Except the one in entrance to main room...
I just don't believe there should be a totem spawn you can see from working on generator or more than 5 meters.
And there definitely shouldn't be so many guaranteed spawns.
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@Beaburd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756315#Comment_3756315
Remote hook and Grim Embrace have some core differences that differentiate themselves from each other. The list of differences are below (listed in order of game impact):
- Remote Hook eliminates the 5-10 second downtime every survivor receives during the pick-up > travel > hook > travel period before each hook
- In contrast Grim Embrace retains that pre-hook sequence and only blocks generators after the hook occurs and everyone starts needing to do those hooked/chase/rescue/misc actions mentioned previously anyway
- Remote hook activates on every hook, regardless of circumstances
- Grim Embrace activates once per unique hook
- Remote hook prevents hook saves entirely
- Grim embrace's effect is subjected to potential hook saves that can postpone its effects
Although I listed 3 core differences that separates Remote Hooking from Grim Embrace, difference #1 is the one that really matters here.
Remote hook outright permanently removes the pre-hook time for all survivors on the map. Even the hooked survivor is affected by this because the sooner they are hooked, the less time they have on the game while on the hook (and the less opportunity they have to use their carry-related perks like Boil Over).
In contrast, everyone retains that pre-hook downtime against Grim Embrace, and its gen blocking effect occurs after the hook when everyone can start doing the standard hooked/chase/rescue/misc actions to reset game state. The gen blocking is therefore only really potentially affecting one person (the misc survivor, who is hopefully repairing), and not anyone else. At best it will stop a survivor from completing a generator momentarily, but that's a temporary stall instead of a time waste because that generator is not regressing, and that survivor has another role they can play when it activates anyway (rescue/chase/misc).
That critical difference in #1 is then compounded by #2, since, in this event, you could achieve this Remote Unhook pre-hook time elimination benefit up to 11 times in a match.
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Side Note:
I also just realized that survivor carry time can extend up to 16 seconds if the survivor is constantly wiggling before they break out of the killer's grasp. So the maximum amount of time this perk can save is actually up to 16 seconds of the killer's individual time, or 64 seconds (16 * 4) of the survivor's total time.
It was therefore technically possible, especially against sabo users, that remote hooking in this event could save up to 512 seconds (8.5 minutes) worth of the survivor's collective game time for the killer in a game. That number was obtained by multiplying the above 64 seconds by 8, which is the total number of hooks you could get before killing anyone. That said, while possible, this is an unrealistic and extreme scenario.
Still, even if we assume Remote Hook saves 5-10 seconds on average per hook, that was still up to 20-40 seconds of game time saved per hook. Multiply it by 8 to represent the number of hooks you could theoretically have before killing someone, and this perk still has a maximum potential value of 160 - 320 seconds of collective survivor time saved in any one game.
Those numbers are ridiculously high, especially when you compare it to any other perk (including Grim Embrace).
Keep in mind, this side note still ignores the benefit of ignoring hooks saves.
It was just so unbelievably busted.Remote hook prevents hook saves entirely
That's not true. You can say it makes pallet saves more difficult, because you can't screw up the timing, but it definitely was possible.
can save is actually up to 16 seconds of the killer's individual time, or 64 seconds (16 * 4) of the survivor's total time.
If you want to use maximum time, then we can also say all survivors got downed next to a hook, which would be around 4 seconds of survivor's total time...
So that's not really how it works in reality. In most maps I can reach hook around 5-6 seconds. Unless I decide to go on trip for better hook, but at that moment I have to walk even with remote unhooking to get it reliably.
especially against sabo users,
That's also not really true, because you usually have to drop survivor against Sabo squads and slug them... You won't let them wiggle of if possible.
Slugging saves actually more time for killer than remote hooking. You don't need any animation, so is slugging broken?
And your whole math is incorrect, simply because you calculate with 4 survivors. Well, just from that it's flawed, because you are hooking one survivor, his time is not really valid at that point.
What matters is gen time in this game. Your whole concept of saving so much time is flawed anyway.
If it worked like that, any chase perk is broken. That let's you down survivors faster, instead of hooking. But your concept here is exactly same. It doesn't hinder survivors, just saved time for killer.
But in reality it doesn't stop survivors from doing their objective, it doesn't give you additional time on already used time unlike gen regression perks.
What is stronger, 4 chase perks (mix with information), where all those perks focus is save your time, or 4 slowdown perks where whole focus is to hinder survivors progress?
Your theory simply doesn't work in reality.
- Remote Hook eliminates the 5-10 second downtime every survivor receives during the pick-up > travel > hook > travel period before each hook
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Hmm, I wonder what other effects we could use.
You could make 5th stack something limited. Maybe something like screaming 2-3 times in 10 seconds interval?
You could make killer's attacks enhanced with some status effect, or faster recovery, probably just basic attacks. That would be definitely a valid option too.
I would rather focus this about boosting M1 killers -> Basic attack. Simply because that would let devs make it stronger than just any attack, where Nurse and Blight join the room....
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Definitely an interesting idea.
Plaything would definitely be main perk for this. I wonder if it would be better than pentimento, or just use both anyway.
Probably both, but you wouldn't have room for information perk.
I currently really enjoy Plaything, Pentimento, Ruin, Surveillance...
I don't think this would be better than Pentimento, but if you have killer that doesn't need information that much, it could be valid 4th option.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Skull Merchant doesn't see how many stacks a Survivor has, though. It works like condemned in that regard.
Skully doesn't really see it but there is not many options…
Basically you care only about 1/2. You can easily track that in chase, but it can throw you of of survivor got randomly detected outside of chase.
That's definitely way more difficult for Sadako, where you need to care about range too, so you often can't be sure if it hit or not. (I hope it's range based again, don't play her much)
Showing stacks to her would definitely help her get condemned survivors more reliably, also because you would know what survivor to commit on to lock stacks...
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@TieBreaker said:
Yeah, there's a bunch of kids on the forums who get offended if people are talking about any issues that don't affect them.
Most killer players on the forums are pretty reasonable. It just seems like the forum is killer sided, purely because these trash talking kids post whatever they want, get banned and create new accounts to keep running their mouths. They're not the majority, just loud with a fast respawn rate.
They're not the majority, just loud with a fast respawn rate.
That made me laugh...
Best description I have seen in a while.
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Main issue are spawns. Totem spawns are just terrible, the people who designed it had to be terrible at hide and seek growing up...
Totems next to generators, fully in open visible from half of the map etc.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756288#Comment_3756288
You can still hook nearby with normal hooks, and now you have the choice to circumvent wiggling mechanics and hook in a place somewhere you can't reach
It's better
Just because I can't reach it, doesn't make it better.
The location can and probably will be worse for me, because there is high chance of a survivor in that area.
Remote hooking on nearest hook gives me way more control over the outcome.
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@Beaburd said:
Yup, glad the event is over and remote hook is gone - that was miserable.
People say 'it's not bad, it's just a few seconds saved' etc, etc; but those same people neglect that killer time is 4x more valuable than survivor time. This was a point that was brought up in reverse quite often when it came to boons, DS, and more survivor time-waste perks. So saving 5 seconds with a remote hook is equivalent to saving up to 20 seconds of overall game time, and saving 10 seconds (possible with travel time saved on remote hook) is equivalent to saving up to 40 seconds of game time.
If you think I'm exaggerating, look at this way.
When you hook someone, they are indisposed and doing nothing while you can do whatever it is you want to do. One survivor also has to go for the save, meaning they aren't doing any objectives either. If you get in a chase immediately after (very possible with remote hook), there's a third survivor who also is not doing antyhing. The 4th survivor may still do objectives, but, especially in solo queue, there's a better chance they're also attempting the rescue or the chaser is bringing you to them so they're also unable to do generators.
That remote hook accelerates the above process and so, while it might save you 5-10 seconds of your individual time, it will also immediately convert into pressure that gets spread to all 4 survivors and ends up saving you 20-40 seconds of overall game/objective time PER hook.
Putting that into perspective, a single pain resonance saves you 15 seconds of gen time. Even better, a Pop Goes the Weasel proc on a 99% gen saves you ~23 seconds of gen time. Depending on how much time that remote hook saved you, it was basically giving you a free pain, a max value pop, or even both of those perks worth of time every single time you used it.
That doesn't even include the benefits it had in denying rescues.
It was crazy overpowered, and I hope never to see it again.You can just look at it as opposite of slowdown perk.
If 5-6 seconds of remote unhooking is so busted, why it's not true for grim embrace? You halt progress for all survivors that could work on gens.
Information perks save you time in searching for survivors.
Chase perks save you time on downing/hitting survivors.
Those usually get way above time amount of remote unhooking.
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As killer 3k, 4k
As SWF 0k, 1k
As soloQ finish all gens and get at least one survivor to escape.
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@SOULWARRIOR71K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756240#Comment_3756240
Memory/keeping track of what’s going on in the match is absolutely part of having game sense.
Funny is you try to require game sense from someone who tries to play "nice".
If I go tryhard, I don't need to remember anything but one skin/nickname…
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Basically only outcome when it comes into play would be when killer used "chase and hook everyone I find" and then get low on gens, they can see who should be their next target. But at that point killer didn't really tunnel, no?
Otherwise I would definitely want it, I usually try to go for 8 hooks, but it can get difficult with multiple same survivors, or some killers where I switch chases a lot (Legion, Wraith).
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Survivors in general? Not really, I don't have any issue when we play SWF, soloQ on other hand...
We just need soloQ focused changes. Show wiggle meter, show other survivor's perks in the game (not lobby), replace suicide on hook survivors with bot.
Some feature to let you die faster against bleed out could work too.
I don't think current balance killer vs survivor needs any basekit buff/nerfs. It's just QoL features for survivors, specific killer changes and perks.
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You have no idea how much you would get tunnelled/bleed out for this perk...
And definitely add to Enduring ignoring this perk.