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@Warlock_2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/665547#Comment_665547
So, I rarely play survivor because I find it dull and entirely dependent upon the killer as to whether the role is fun. If they camp or tunnel then it is a boring M1 match. I prefer to be in the driver seat.
So, I did play a little survivor this weekend and the first match was tombstone Meyers. He apparently stalked the crap out of a couple of survivors before coming upon me. He came around the corner and I make for the window (only escape route in that room of Lerys since he was in the door. As I hit the window, T3 goes off and I'm morid. SOB, ######### did the others do, dance for him? He had zero Los on me till he came around the corner. I've barely been in this match and I'm dead because someone (likely 2or more) were dumb enough to let him stalk them for a long time.
OP? Yes and no. He had to stalk a while to get the ability, but I suffered as a solo survivor due to stupid partners.
Keys are no different than that or the ebony mori match I ended up in 2 games later. The difference between ebony mori and a key is the ebony mori lasts all match and gets used 4 times. The key requires the deatch of 1 to 3 survivors or the gens all done. Much, much weaker.
So, if keys are OP then so is Tombstone Meyers and moris. I don't believe that is the case.
Bad teammates is not an argument in favor of something being OP. Against good teammates, properly stalking is actually a challenge to do, and using Tombstone Piece makes that a lot more challenging because it raises the amount of stalk you need to reach EW 3.
Also, your "difference" does not actually highlight what makes Keys weaker than Moris. You're just factually kinda stating what each one does. Moris allow you to shortcut the amount of time it takes to finish a game with no additional effort. Keys allow you to shortcut the amount of time it takes to finish a game with no additional effort. The way they both go about it are completely different because they are completely different items meant for completely different roles.
Keys and Mori offerings are OP in my opinion. Tombstone Piece is not on the same level in my opinion because while it also allows you to shortcut the amount of time it takes to finish the game, it requires significant additional effort to accomplish that and penalizes you if you are unable to reliably capitalize on it (since you only have a limited window to make that happen, and the stalk time needed to reach EW3 is always considerably increased).
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/665572#Comment_665572
i get where you're going, but understand this:
if i as killer put someone on a hook, there should already be a repair speed penalty happening.. (25% minimum). also, other people are supposed to care and see if they can come help, but for some reason they think it's cool not to.. that means the team is operating now at 75% optimal.
if i leave the hook and find another survivor, that survivor is now not working on a generator, dropping the team down to operating at a max of 50% of optimal. if 1 person is going to the hook (like they should be), that drops the team operation down to 25%, and if 2 people are going to the hook (like they should be usually), the team is operating at 0% optimal speed.
please explain how your repair speed penalty corrects or balances the numbers in any way better.
My idea basically pushes both ends to further extremes. Now instead of being kinda punished for camping, you are REALLY punished for camping. Now instead of kinda slowing down progress by going after other people (by getting a second person off the gens), you are REALLY slowing down progress. You are basically forcing the Killer to work towards finding other people, and that in response forces Survivors to work toward making the rescue ASAP instead of trying to top off a Gen first.
You talk about how "for some reason, they think it's cool not to", but that's because if becomes obvious that the Killer is hard camping, it is just more efficient overall to buckle down and bust them gens than to go for the rescue. They are comfortable being 75% optimal when the Killer is kinda being 0% optimal. Even if the Killer is not necessarily hard camping, sometimes it is still better to finish the Gen first before making the save so you've pushed the team one step closer to overall escape.
When the Killer is going after someone else, one person can still tackle Generators while the second goes for the rescue. Because as long as the Killer is occupied with a chase, what harm is there for only one person going for the rescue? With this idea, the Survivor still tackling the gen is now doing so at a slower speed, further bringing down Survivor progress and giving the Killer just a little more time to work on that chase.
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You should have gone with Spud Team Six instead of Potato Squad, but that's just me. :P
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/665540#Comment_665540
freddy was actually pretty dope when he came out.. because survivors have standardized some crappy "rush the objectives and run out of the door" meta in order for them all to feel like they "won" something even tho they really just skipped half of the game, there are many killers that seem insufficient and get boned.
it's not that the killer is particularly weak, it's that the rounds were supposed to take longer. nobody was actually supposed to think a 10k-13k bp gain for escaping a match was a "win" when you can easily get triple that as base, or up to 6x by only yourself playing 1 offering.
there is a lot of things to do in a game of dead by daylight, but players choose not to do them, and as a random survivor on that team or as a killer trying to play a game, that mentality of my "teammates" or "guests" is really just a super lame thing to have to deal with. if you don't enjoy getting chased by a killer why play a game about getting chased by a killer?
@TAG survivors not getting camped can already rush the generators fast enough without a repair speed bonus of any kind. an even faster game would be even more crappy than it already is and also less rewarding/fulfilling for everyone. i'm sorry but i just don't understand why rushing even faster is even a thing that people want.. if it's because you think the other people on your team don't have enough time to finish their gens individually, understand that they're probably not even working on them.. they probably WANT you to die.
Well, if you start going after someone else instead of hanging by the hook, there's not only zero repair speed bonus, but there is a repair speed penalty instead.
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@Warlock_2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/665133#Comment_665133
Good thing keys are not so op then.
I disagree. Dull/Skeleton Keys (as well as Ivory/Ebony Moris) are OP in my opinion.
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Okay, I came up with a barely thought-through idea (like, I came up with the idea over the course of eating a snack) for trying to reward not-camping and punish camping. It's probably a terrible idea, and I don't really know what the specific numbers would be but I'm gonna try pitching it anyways because why not.
Whenever a Killer hooks a Survivor, the following comes into effect after X seconds and persists until there are no Survivors on a hook:
-As long as one or more Survivors are on a hook, Generator repair speed is increased by Y% for all Survivors unless the Killer is in a chase or carrying a Survivor. When the Killer exits a chase or stops carrying a Survivor, this effect returns after X seconds.
-As long as the Killer is in a chase or carrying a Survivor while one or more Survivors are on a hook, Generator repair speed is decreased by Z% for all Survivors. (Z may or may not be equal to Y in this case; I'm not sure.)
Basically, once you hook a Survivor, you have X seconds to find another Survivor and either start chasing them or down them so you can pick them up before Survivors gain a boost to Generator repair speed. But if you are in the middle of chasing or carrying a Survivor while someone is hooked, Survivor instead receive a penalty to Generator repair speed until either the chase ends, the Survivor lets go of someone (either because they broke free or because the Killer hooked them), or until they rescue everyone currently on a hook.
Does this make sense to anyone, or am I just crazy?
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@ThePeeje said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/664245#Comment_664245
Your first paragraph makes no sense. Whats the difference between its necesary and its strong? Yes, without it, the game is too hard for most killers. i agree. with it, however, on average the game is too easy. not always. its inconsistent. but on average, its the best perk in the game. if it lasts 2 mins, its already wasted so much survivor time. only a 1 min cleanse and youd have to say its only performed ok.
Your second paragraph i also dont understand, why would it prevent any gen progress? Firstly the intervals are more consistent, but on average less. maybe make it 1 per 15 seconds then. whatever amount that would mean you can progress through it, even hitting good skill checks, but itll be slow. but they can just eat the bad ones and then itll run out. OR they can go look for the hex totem. and even if they dont find it, they can at least weaken it by doing other totems. how is that worse than now? Entire games are currently won and lost based on that perk and how long it stays up for.
Necessary means you will struggle without it; strong means it is good at what it is trying to do. Sometimes it is good at what it is trying to do, when it does meaningfully slow down the game. Sometimes it does very little because the totem is broken very quickly. Sometimes it does very little because the Survivors are able to simply power through Ruin. Even with that, though, a lot of Survivors find it necessary to bring it despite the inconsistency because they would rather deal with that than have no option against the gen rush. I myself do not like using Ruin very much because of that inconsistency, and as such, I don't consider it the best perk in the game. I prefer using Pop Goes the Weasel myself, personally.
From the very beginning of the game, with zero input from the Killer, a Survivor can have almost as much progress negated in 20 seconds as Pop Goes the Weasel. And if Killers are choosing to just power through it to get their Skill Checks out of the way, that continues to happen another four times. With zero Killer input. That is a LOT of stall power. I'm not even sure reducing it to a Skill Check every 15 seconds will tone it down enough.
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@Warlock_2020 said:
There is way too many things these forums want gone. Soon the game will consist of survivors and killers just standing there complaining until one side gives up.
Keys are not that common. I've seen two keys used in the past two months. Ill8admit that the boxes tend to produce keys in swings. I had a week where someone found a key in a chest a dozen times. That said, Ebony Mori is much more common than keys. I have dozens that sit in my inventory for mori daily on Trapper. Keys are not as common in the BW in my experience. I would be interested in the actual stats as everyone's experience may vary.
To sum up, keys are fine. Moris as well.
The rate at which OP items show up shouldn't really dictate whether it is problematic on a game-by-game basis. If there was a Beyond-Beyond-Ultra Rare Offering that instantly killed a Survivor when the match started or a Beyond-Beyond-Ultra Rare Offering that prevented the Killer from moving for a solid minute when the game started, neither of those would be balanced because they were super super rare offerings. In an individual game, those offerings would be absolutely insane.
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If you like doing those things, by all means go ahead. They're in the game for you to do, so don't let anyone stop you. If you're not interested in hearing people out because of that, then I'll simply carry on the discussion with other people.
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@MimiDallas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/665085#Comment_665085
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/665084#Comment_665084
Then you will have to deal with the fact that sometimes you lose and life is unfair. DBD Devs give you a good life lesson.
Ignoring the discussion in favor of "sometimes you lose; leave it alone" is not constructive at all.
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Franklin's Demise is not actually that useful against a Key unless the Survivor using it is hellbent on using add-ons that allow you to channel the Key's energy. When it falls onto the ground, that Survivor or another Survivor can just pick it up later and use it once they know where the Hatch is.
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@MimiDallas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/665023#Comment_665023
Well I dont agree with you then. In your logic, the hatch could open only when one survivor is alive. I think thats wasting of an unpredictable and interesting game mechanic of a hatch. I definitely dont want to limit this game to be played in just one single way to assure everything is "balanced and fair" and nobody could complain. BORING.
Anyway, this topic is a TOTAL NON-ISSUE. The situations where multiple people escape through hatch are very rare. Unless you play against swf survivors and they purposely lead the game to hatch escape. Then again dont go to match where you can see one survivor with a map and one with a key in a lobby. Not to mention, no SWF player wants to die so the hatch will most likely spawn after all gens are done and thats really your problem, boo boo.
I never said I necessarily wanted it so the hatch could only open when one Survivor was left. I said above that I liked the idea of having it so the Hatch insta-closes when someone uses the key to open the Hatch and jumps in.
Also, the fact that you are suggesting that Killers lobby dodge is a pretty good indication of this not actually being a "TOTAL NON-ISSUE."
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@Poweas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/665023#Comment_665023
K butcher moris and we'll give you the keys. I think moris should be after two hooks so they're just an animation thing.
Keys should be after gates are powered but hey, that's just me.
I'm okay with nerfing Moris. I'll put forth the idea I've been pitching: Yellow Bloodpoint add-ons (minus Pudding and Shell) also let you Mori one Survivor who has been hooked two times (NOT a Survivor who is on death hook; they must have been hooked two times specifically in order for them to be able to be Mori'd with the offering), and Green Bloodpoint add-ons (minus Streamers) also let you Mori any Survivor who has been hooked two times.
I'm not sure how I feel about making the key only work on the hatch after the gates are powered. I feel that might be too heavy-handed a nerf.
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@MimiDallas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/665008#Comment_665008
It should be brought into discussion. Only ultra-rare and very-rare keys can open the hatch. Thats like talking all med-kits should be nerfed because ranger med-kit exists and its ability is absolutely over-the-top. But the thing is its also very rare rarity.
Not a good comparison IMO. If the ranger medkit is unbalanced (and I am not saying it is), then the ranger medkit is what should be nerfed while the other med-kits are left untouched, regardless of the rarity of any of the medkits. I am not arguing that all the keys should be nerfed because some of the keys have the ability to prematurely open the hatch. I am arguing that the keys that have the ability to prematurely open the hatch should be nerfed.
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@MimiDallas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/665001#Comment_665001
Well honestly, I think they key that opens a hatch should be ONLY ultra-rare, not rare. Ultra-rare items and add-ons are very rare in bloodweb and they are meant to be filled with over-the-top once-usable power.
Rarity doesn't factor into this discussion for me. I am talking about both the Dull and Skeleton Keys. The way those two items interact with the Hatch is not balanced IMO.
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@MimiDallas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/84780/can-we-nerf-keys-just-a-little-bit
3 survivors can escape when only 1 or 0 gen is left to be done. They would win anyway.
Your problem is that multiple peole can escape with one key. When multiple people are alive and hatch appears that means its very late phase of the match and you were not very good at killing people.
That does not mean that it is good for the match to prematurely end as a result. It is still more than possible for the Killer to mount a comeback, but the Key can just straight-up deny that. That is not terribly reasonable IMO.
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@Guertena said:
killers: damn survivors done 3 gens and 2 escaped by the hatch freaking keys
survivors: damn killer killed everyone by mori without giving a chance to do something freaking ebony
both should shut up, it's equal "balanced"
Each side having one unbalanced thing does not cause each side to balance out. It means that there are two unbalanced things negatively impacting the game.
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@Maelstrom10 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/664786#Comment_664786
That's a good one! I feel there going to be doing this mostly through the rift/archives system some of which will be paid it seems.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/664787#Comment_664787
Really interested to see what kind of add-on revision you'd like as I have a few ideas but you seem to be more of a pig main then me.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/664790#Comment_664790
Honestly I only think ebony moris need some tweaking and only something slight at that, along with keys conditions being changed ie can only be looted with plunderers (no rarity change mind you), along with more aura reading abilites. Also mori spam shouldn't be a thing, and keys shouldn't have to use charges to "turn on"
Note that while I may be a Pig main, that does not necessarily make me a GOOD Pig main. :P
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@Maelstrom10 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/664781#Comment_664781
1) so does, thanataphobia, though the debuff is applied the same from all survivors. I wouldn't mind that for dying light but wanted my initial suggestion to in some way relate to the original perk. This change would be the easy one for the devs to implement.
2) I do agree that it's a giant payout which does help to actually sustain it, and wouldn't be against something along the lines of a 5-10% debuff to gens that stacks every time a survivor is individually hooked for the next 60s thusly encouraging not tunneling lest you lose the stacks, whilst not resetting the debuff and stacking infinitely. Or it could stack up to 4-5 tokens and be a 20-25/40-50% slow.
1) Thanatophobia starts working when you hit someone, though, so with that, you are incentivized to spread the pain around to keep the perk working at full power. Compare that to your Dying Light idea, where you are trying to concentrate your efforts on one single person at a time until that person is dead. Spreading the pain around does little to help you because it just means it will take longer for the first Survivor to die.
2) I'm not sure about the numbers, but I think the concept of slowing down gen progress for hooking people is not a bad idea. It's something that has been shown to work through Pop Goes the Weasel.
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Pig changes. EGC nerf changed, add-on revision, and a few other buffs here and there.
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@Maelstrom10 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/664748#Comment_664748
1st one deffinately makes it less tunnely/campy as you can get a good bonus by just ending other survivors, without taking away from the core of the perk.
2nd one is insane but you cannot so much as even down (or possibly even touch) the survivors saved with the perk lest risking the loss of your speed. Forced to down alternate survivors until you've hooked everyone uniquely for a permanent 15%-20% depending speed boost, whilst on a timer as well. Exact opposite of current dying light forcing you to focus on downing as many as possible and as different survivors as possible.
1) The problem is that the perk does NOTHING until someone dies, so from the start, you are incentivized to camp/tunnel someone out of the game ASAP to get the perk online. And if you are going to be doing that, you may as well try to aim for the big fish first. Best case scenario, some people will simply decide to camp/tunnel the first person they find instead of aiming specifically for the Obsession.
2) It is definitely the opposite of the current Dying Light in that it absolutely disincentivizes camping/tunneling, but I think you have too big of a pay-off for going the distance, since each smaller reward helps you get to the big prize anyways.
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The first one doesn't really do enough to dissuade tunneling/camping IMO. The obsession still gives the biggest reward, so you are incentivized to take them out first at all costs anyways.
Second one, are you saying that if I can hook each Survivor once within a certain time limit with no repeats, I get a 20% bonus speed forever, and each hook helps me get the next one faster? That sounds insane.
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I like the idea of the Hatch insta-closing when someone uses the key to jump in. At that point normally, either the game is basically over because everyone is about to jump in, or the Killer is able to find the hatch and close it, starting the EGC anyways. If multiple people want to escape, each one needs their own key. Of course, that one achievement where everyone needs to escape via Hatch should be changed, but I see nothing wrong with that.
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Ruin slows down the game for the Killer to some degree. That in and of itself is not fun, but what it does is allow the Killer some more breathing room in experimenting with things that could be considered fun, as the potential gen rush can cause the game to go by in a blaze and prevent the Killer from doing anything other than setting their mind to winning as quickly and efficiently as possible.
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"Overall too strong, as every killer brings it at high ranks"
It's not frequently seen in high ranks because it is too strong. It is seen because it is necessary for most Killers to bring some form of method to slow down the game to avoid being gen rushed.
Also, your Ruin seems ridiculous. If a person is going through a gen solo and does not have a meaningful way to speed up gen progress, Ruin will almost flat-out prevent any progress for someone who can't consistently hit Great Skill Checks for up to a whopping 70 seconds total. Sure, people could start scavenging for Totems and maybe even knock out Ruin quickly, which cuts it off, but then that means Ruin's effect on the game is even more wildly varying (ranging from near-useless as is the current worst-case scenario to grinding Survivor progress to a halt). I don't think that's the sort of band-aid we should have to deal with gen rushing.
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@Crazewtboy said:
Someone brought up the point that the cap is there so people can't hack bloodpoints. Anything above 1mil turns into an immediate flag unless it was compensated by BHVR. I agree though, it is stupid that we can't even hit level 50 with the current cap. Surely raising it to make that possible wouldn't hurt.
I mean, if it wasn't for the bloodpoint cap, I would have easily reached 2 million BP at just by the way I used them. Seems strange that they might not be able to discern BP steadily increasing and a hard 0 to a million billion in a few seconds.
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@Speshul_Kitten said:
It depends on which killer you plan on using as their abilities will directly synergies with certain perks better. For example;
For Pig: I use Ruin, Enduring, Brutal Strength and BBQ/PGTW
Huntress: Ruin, BBQ, PWYF, PGTW/Nurses
Spirit: Ruin, BBQ, PGTW, Brutal Strength/Sloppy
It really will vary by the killer
Erm, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I am talking about a very specific build (Agitation + Iron Grasp + Mad Grit = LES PLAY SOME FOOBAWWWW) that I am looking to use with a fourth perk.
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@thesuicidefox said:
If you just want to boost your carrying ability, Fire Up would probably help. If you want more speed then NOED or PWYF would be good picks (NOED is better). Thrilling Tremors could also be useful here.
A bonus to picking up does not sound too bad (since it also gives some small extra bonuses here and there), though I worry by the time it has enough stacks to make a difference, I would not be able to get much use out of it. Still worth thinking about, at least.
Thrilling Tremors is also an interesting option that I forgot about, as I know immediately which gen to make a mad dash to (if any). And if there is no one on a gen, I get free access for a bit to roam around like a derp.
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My problem is that having a Killer's power effectively be just "Four* Extra Perks" and "run faster sometimes" does not seem very interesting. I am all for finding some way to incorporate multiple Legion members into the core gameplay, but I'd kinda want it to be more interesting than that, personally.
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@terumisan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/662967#Comment_662967
So what's the point of a mori if you already hooked them twice
Little point (beyond maybe snuffing DS), which is why I wouldn't simply make 2-hook Moris their own separate offering and instead opt for baking them into already-existing offerings.
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@Shad03 said:
The four seconds in which they can't move the wiggle timer up is roughly (I think) the same successful hit recovery time you get. So it's essentially removing the downside of hitting survivors who body block.
I'm pretty sure the cooldown for a successful hit is less than four seconds, because I've counted Mad Grit 3's four seconds and have been able to get back to the action before thouse four seconds are up. I think the time for a successful hit cooldown is in the range of 2 seconds, enough for Mad Grit Tier 1 to at least come close to mitigating the cooldown. I think Tier 2 and up have enough of a wiggle pause to offset the cooldown and then some.
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For what it's worth, Cypress is not fine IMO; it is trash.
I would scrap all the current Mori offerings. Then I would make it so:
1) All the yellow Bloodpoint offerings (except Pudding and Hollow Shell) give the ability to Mori one Survivor who has been hooked two times
2) All the green Bloodpoint offerings (except Bloody Party Streamers) give the ability to Mori all Survivors who have been hooked two times
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@anarchy753 said:
Oh boy that's the reputation we want, the game that copies fortnite.
If this means we get John Wick as a killer, I'd be for it.
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@IceCreamPrincess said:
Identity V, a game that is near-identical to Dead by Daylight in gameplay, uses a traditional ranking system where the winners rank up and the losers rank down. So this idea of "you can't apply the ranking rules of another game to DBD" is bogus.
Forgive my ignorance but i had never heard of Identity V. Assuming that its very similar to DbD then obviously it should be easy to implement a ranked system like theirs, but that still brings up the question, how do you classify winning in DbD
I figured there was a reasonable chance you didn't hear about it, hence why I mentioned its similarity to DBD so that it didn't sound like I was just pulling a random game comparison out of nowhere.
Fundamentally, I go by Identity V's system, which bases it on how many Survivors managed to escape.
Less than 2 = Killer wins
More than 2 = Survivors win
2 = Draw
Some things do need to be altered to accommodate some issues such a system would have in this game (for example, as far as I am aware, there is no Key equivalent or Mori equivalent in Identity V, so that game does not have to worry about a bunch of Survivors randomly escaping at once, nor does it have to worry about the Killer randomly being able to cut down on the number of hooks needed to kill someone). But the way I see it, most of the things that would want to be altered for such a ranking system probably already want to be altered currently anyways (example: Keys and Moris), so that isn't really an issue to me.
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@chieftaco said:
thank you for your kind concern for me in thinking that it is the ranking system punishing me, not teammates who don't understand how to play the game not allowing me to earn my rank. it really means a lot that people out there expose this "horrible" ranking system lmao
your whole post was pretty silly again this time, but i especially like this part:
"You don't beat a level of Mario by 100%ing it. You beat a level of Mario by reaching the end goal. You don't beat an opponent in Street Fighter by landing more throws or parrying more attacks. You win by knocking their health bar to zero or by having a higher health bar when the timer expires."
apparently winning vs mastery concept is completely lost on you.. :) i say good day to you sir, good day to you.
"apparently winning vs mastery concept is completely lost on you.. :)"
How many player-vs-player multiplayer games do you know that care more about the mastery concept as opposed to just winning? I am legitimately curious.
@IceCreamPrincess said:
I think where the issue lies with ranking in this game, is that you cants just apply the ranking rules of another game to it, due to its "unique" gameplay. As suggested previously it should be that the winner ranks up, then loser deranks, but there is no proper definition of winner in this game.
For example, lets say a survivor wins if they escape, which seems like an obvious conclusion, but its not as simple as that. Does that stealthy player, who never once touched a generator, unhooked/healed an ally and was never once seen by the killer, but escapes via the hatch deserve the win compared to the player that completed all 5 gens, unhooked half the team, ran the killer around for 10 minutes but caught a hatchet and died right after opening the gates?
What about the killers then, if the survivors goal is to just escape to win, then there goal is to just kill them to win, so then all we would have is all killers ignoring gens and using tools such as NoeD to ensure a few kills.
Most games with ranking systems are multiplayer games yes, but DbD doesn't reward ranks to the team, but the player. In any number of games, if the team wins but had to carry a dead weight player, that dead weight still ranks up with the team, but thats not the case with DbD. 3 people escape, but the 4th died early on after doing nothing, the 4th guy doesn't benefit from what the other 3 did.
As it currently stands, the ranking system takes account for your typical match of DbD, where its a back and forth where survivors get hooked, do gens, all typically get into a chase etc. And the emblem system takes all that into account, but in my opinion it is too strict in how it does it
Now, i never really play survivor (like maybe 2 of my 600hrs is survivor) but there have of course been those outlier matches where you absolutely dominate, as either side, and you get screwed over by the emblem system, either by the survivors just blitzing gens and escaping before the killer can even catch his breath, or where the killer gets a 4 man kill in a single chainsaw sprint, but those are just that, outliers.
In my opinion, i think that the emblem system does punish survivors too hard in some ways, say where one survivor runs the killer around for 5 gens, the other 3 are punished simply because they couldn't be a chase (and vice versa guy in the chase not getting gens), as well as altruism sometimes being actually impossible to do simply because people not getting hit (or giving up/dcing on first hook, but thats a different debate). I believe that less focus is put on bravery and survivng chases, as well as less being put on altruism too, and more for teamwork in general (working together on gens etc.)
The game is supposed to be balanced around 2 kills and 2 escapes, and that the average survivors should escape with 1 pip, or die with a safety pip. Doing well in a match shouldn't guarentee a 2 pip, since imo thats for going above and beyond, and is currently at a perfectly reasonable rate of attainment.
And finally, you should never have a go at survivors for escaping unbroken, and reducing there altruism score, since the entire point of the game is to not die.
tldr: winning isn't definitive, rank system flawed but passable, less focus on altruism/boldness, more on teamwork and survival
Identity V, a game that is near-identical to Dead by Daylight in gameplay, uses a traditional ranking system where the winners rank up and the losers rank down. So this idea of "you can't apply the ranking rules of another game to DBD" is bogus.
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Doc - Moldy Electrode
Pig - Rules Set No. 2
Trapper - one of the add-ons that give more Bear Traps
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/662213#Comment_662213
you have again attempted well, but missed (probably on purpose) the meaning behind what i have been saying.
the ranking system doesn't "punish" me for not being able to perform 60%+ of the tasks in the game. i don't receive the ranking "reward" for my poor overall performance in terms of a well rounded match.
perhaps the mistake is in the concept of ranking in this game. let's look at that for a second:
rank 20, the highest possible ranks, is what you get when you are brand new and have never played (much) before. the more you play, the more you progress, down towards and achieving rank 1.
people who play a lot don't want to play with people who don't know how to play. the ranks are an indicator of play, not of skill.
how would a rank 1 player who dies every game keeping others alive differ from a rank 1 player who watches everyone die every game? which one would you consider more skilled? which one should be rewarded rank?
regardless,
"I want the system to change so that so you are not forced to follow an arbitrarily set of tasks to do well instead doing whatever it takes to survive/kill."
i don't consider it an arbitrary set of tasks. i consider them all of the game's objectives, similar to 100%ing a level of mario or anything else.. its a challenge i can count on every time i load into the game. a challenge that is much more fun and rewarding than "making it thru a level"..
i'm not sure i feel that people who are super concerned with "making it thru a level" should be considered or considering themselves "the best of the best"..
"the ranking system doesn't "punish" me for not being able to perform 60%+ of the tasks in the game. i don't receive the ranking "reward" for my poor overall performance in terms of a well rounded match."
I don't agree. I feel you are punished.
"people who play a lot don't want to play with people who don't know how to play. the ranks are an indicator of play, not of skill."
People who are good also don't want to play with people who are terrible. The ranking system (to a point) works to sort that out.
"how would a rank 1 player who dies every game keeping others alive differ from a rank 1 player who watches everyone die every game? which one would you consider more skilled? which one should be rewarded rank?"
Depends on which one is actually contributing more to the team's overall success. Is the guy's sacrifice ensuring that the rest of the team escapes? Is the guy powering through gens ensuring the escape of the other surviving teammates? Who is successfully working toward the overall win in the end? Maybe both are.
"i don't consider it an arbitrary set of tasks."
Well, I personally do.
"i consider them all of the game's objectives, similar to 100%ing a level of mario or anything else.. its a challenge i can count on every time i load into the game. a challenge that is much more fun and rewarding than "making it thru a level"..
i'm not sure i feel that people who are super concerned with "making it thru a level" should be considered or considering themselves "the best of the best".."
You don't beat a level of Mario by 100%ing it. You beat a level of Mario by reaching the end goal. You don't beat an opponent in Street Fighter by landing more throws or parrying more attacks. You win by knocking their health bar to zero or by having a higher health bar when the timer expires.
Once again, ranking system =/= fun-o-meter. Ranking system in games sorts people by who wins more and who loses more. What DBD does runs counterintuitive to how a ranking system normally functions.
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/662049#Comment_662049
i only have to play super good for about 3 minutes to ensure i safety-pip. it takes me very little more to turn that safety pip into a pip. i regularly die first, with my "team" still having 4 or even 5 gens left to do, and almost always have a pip at that time, or just barely missed pipping.
as killer, i can easily pip without sacrificing anyone if i instead dominate. i can let everyone walk out of the exit gates at the end of the match and all 5 players in the game can pip, most can even double-pip.
the arguments you are attempting are simply flawed arguments that are reflective of your play style.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/662050#Comment_662050
this game, even tho being a team game, was designed to not include communication.
what does that mean? that means they don't want you to know what is going on in other areas if you are not involved.
it means (and especially in solo queue) you have to be able to adapt and react and get things done in order to be a decent player.
it does not mean that you can add communication and assign each member a task and compete as a specialized unit in order to succeed.
what you think of as success a lot of people consider a loop hole that degrades the quality of the gaming experiences for everyone involved.
while i may enjoy looping, i also love rescuing, breaking camps, getting coop, getting altruism, etc. and when i load into a game i expect to get my opportunities to to at least a little bit of all of it.. just because you may not have the ability to fill in and help doesn't mean i should get the b/s end of the stick and be forced to miss out on 60%+ of the things that need to be done in a trial.
factor that with you not having the ability to perform better than you do and my ability to perform in a manner for optimal fun is also severely crippled, taking a good portion of the fun out of the game.
it's one thing if i choose to carry you. it's something completely different for you to think i have to carry you.
I don't believe my arguments to be flawed. I believe in games rewarding the winners. Simple.
"this game, even tho being a team game, was designed to not include communication."
And yet the devs have given their full okay for communication via third party means.
Whether or not that should be the case is a different discussion, but the reality is that it is the case. So this idea of not being able to know what others are doing doesn't really hold up.
"what you think of as success a lot of people consider a loop hole that degrades the quality of the gaming experiences for everyone involved.".
A lot of people also think of it a success. I myself am not sure if this is what it should be. But it is what it is currently and should be treated as such until something changes.
"just because you may not have the ability to fill in and help doesn't mean i should get the b/s end of the stick and be forced to miss out on 60%+ of the things that need to be done in a trial."
I want the system to change so that so you are not forced to follow an arbitrarily set of tasks to do well instead doing whatever it takes to survive/kill.
"factor that with you not having the ability to perform better than you do and my ability to perform in a manner for optimal fun is also severely crippled, taking a good portion of the fun out of the game."
It's called a ranking system, not a fun-o-meter. Again, the vast majority of other games work just fine with a simple win/loss. As should this.
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@[Deleted User] said:
When a Pig does that to me, I either start farming for points (saboing hooks, doing totems, trying to do gens), or make her pull me off to delay the timer as long as possible so the other 3 survivors get EZ escapes.
Too bad my Quarterback build lets me carry you at 110% speed so I can go after dem pesky other people!
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/662023#Comment_662023
if each person only does a particular part of the tasks that need to be done, that means they are lacking drastically on the other parts.
there are 4 scoring categories. if you only get to max 1 or 2 of them in an entire match, you are not demonstrating enough skill to warrant gaining rank.
if you are a gen jockey, you are useless to me in a red rank game, or any other game for that matter, because there is more to the game than doing gens.
if you are a looper that doesn't do anything else in the game, you are not very useful to me because i too need to loop at times, and you are probably going to be trying to get in the middle of my loops for whatever reason, if not just hanging out nearby doing nothing.
for you to gain rank, you are intended to demonstrate qualities in multiple areas, hence the score capping per category. you can only do so much in each category before you are capped, your signal to do some other things too because we understand you were sufficient in this particular category.
if you are a survivor that for whatever reason does not regularly get hooked, you are taking away 25% minimum of your teammates' possible scores and ensuring others will be completely dead before the end of the game for no reason. if multiple teammates do it, even though you think you're super dope at getting your irridescent unbroken emblem, you are still lacking the experience necessary to make you a vital teammate in lower ranks and providing your teammates and killer with an overall boring mundane gaming experience at best.
It means each Survivor is contributing a different specialty for the overall good of the team. The fact that the system does not properly recognize that at times shows me that the system is flawed.
"for you to gain rank, you are intended to demonstrate qualities in multiple areas"
I believe that to gain rank, one should win. The way almost every other game does it.
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@FriendlyGuy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/661267#Comment_661267
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/661275#Comment_661275
It's quite difficult to cut out a win.
I mean for survivors it's escaping, but what if you played super good the whole game and get catched at the end and hardcamped for a safety pip by the killer?
And for Killers, no kill/one kill depip; one kill and a few hooks/two kill blackpip and so on, but what if you are not focusing, every survivor is on third hook and everybody escapes?
Maybe a system with like ~10 points you loose/win after a match, based on multiple factors, are added, if you escape/kill three or more people and taken, if you don't survive/ don't kill three or more people.
The problem of survivors would be solved. You play very good, but you can't survive at the end? You loose 6 points, but next game you'll probably gonna win 14 points if you keep playing that good. Same eith the killer problem.
"what if you played super good the whole game and get catched at the end and hardcamped for a safety pip by the killer?"
If your team wins, congrats you don't depip. If your team loses, well, you lost, no?
"And for Killers, no kill/one kill depip; one kill and a few hooks/two kill blackpip and so on, but what if you are not focusing, every survivor is on third hook and everybody escapes?"
Did you kill anyone? No? Well, then.
My solution would be to use the emblem system for BONUS points that may allow someone to score an upgrade to whatever their score would have been. Were you about to black pip but did rather well? Now you pip instead. Were you going to depip because you lost but played very well? Now you avoid the penalty of depipping.
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/662011#Comment_662011
we are all allowed to have different opinions. perhaps if you were more specific i could understand better your points, but i can't really say you're being descriptive enough for me to even follow what you're trying to state.
A Survivor keeping the Killer sufficiently distracted such that their teammates can get the gens done is contributing to the success of the team.
A Survivor powering through gens ASAP so the distraction is not at risk for a needlessly long time is also contributing to the success of the team.
Doing those things successfully and escaping should reward you thusly. If it does not, that is a shortcoming of the system in my eyes.
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@Sirbloodninja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/661678#Comment_661678
Don't care about looking "highly" upon by other players buddy. Trying to address an issue. Posting troll snarky comments that are not addressing an issue isn't going to be highly look upon. You cannot hear him coming out of cloak while he is in the basement camping with a finished generator in the shack.
If you cannot hear bingbongbingbong when it is right next to you, I am concerned if the issue is aural in nature.
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/661221#Comment_661221
@TAG i believe you misread something somewhere.
i have not listed any ways the ranking system is not a good indication of how well you did in a trial at all.
not going to cut and paste an entire post but if you read again you'll see me state in a pretty clear fashion that running from a killer for an entire match should not provide you with rank, and it does not.
i also said simply doing gens and leaving ASAP while letting someone else do all of the chasing should not provide you with rank, and it does not.
it is IMO quite a bit too easy to obtain rank by doing very little if you stay alive long enough at the cost of your team, and that is one place where ranking indication becomes broken, but only due to a loophole and a lot of people crying back in the day. watching everyone die should only provide rank to a killer, or perhaps a survivor that literally went thru hell and earned it, not to someone who just squatted next to things long enough to see everyone die.
The thing is that those things you allege are not examples of the current system's shortcomings ARE examples of such in my eyes.
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@se05239 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/661709#Comment_661709
While it'd be a buff in some aspects, it'd be a nerf in others.
Surely you've experienced failing 20+ attempts to escape a trap when the Trapper himself used no add-ons whatsoever. You've also probably experienced a survivor escaping on the first attempt even when you used double "harder to escape" add-ons..
And those are the sort of things I'd want to see removed from escaping a Bear Trap.
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@se05239 said:
Apart from increasing the amount of base traps he can carry, the only real buff that the Trapper needs is a way to reset his traps without picking them up first.
Having traps magically pop into his inventory doesn't make much sense.
I'd also like to see the RNG removed from escaping a Bear Trap. Make it more of a progression thing similar to searching a Jigsaw Box.
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@joker7997 said:
Freddy. The only killer that taking a flight to Jamaica wouldn't save you
"This is your captain speaking. I want to play a game."
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@newavitar said:
Because as the first comment said, with the right build you almost always had an "instant heal" without the add-on. It was broken.
What was the right build, out of curiosity?
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@Sirbloodninja said:
800+ posts on forums doesn't mean you know what you are talking about trolls. You all seem to be forgetting that he was in the basement and there was also a LOUD finished generator at the top of the stairs. Kindred is a NOPE, you have to be one of the players "on the Hook" in order for that perk to activate. Can't be responsible for what other perks survivors choose. Spine Chill or Premonition are a NOPE, you have to be in the line of sight of the killer, kinda too late once you round the left corner of the staircase and are looking at the 2 people on the hooks that you are about to save. He was uncloaking as I was rounding the corner and coming at me. 2 seconds to react while he also gets a sprint burst, ya that's not even a fair chance at that point.
There are also things in this game called "add-ins" like "the ghost" or "bone clapper" or "swift hunt" or even "Coxcombed" (Renders the Wailing Bell completely silent) that can be used on wailing bell. So BING BONG that TAG and get your head checked out.
The killer even apologized after the game admitting that what he did was #########.
I'm going to guess that the Killer was not using either of the Clappers; otherwise you would have mentioned it. So the Bing Bong still stands, and a player who thinks everyone else is wrong about the Wraith not being OP is probably not going to be looked upon highly.
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I think the Hatch is fine as is, for the most part. Only issue I have with it involves being able to open it with the Key when there are multiple Survivors still alive.