Seraphor
Seraphor
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I would assume that the Bots will not be good in 1v4. I mean, look at the Survivor-Bots, they are terrible and basically help the Killer more than they help the Survivors. A Survivor-Bot is not better and probably even worse than no player. And I am very sure that their AI is toned down A LOT (but probably necessary, since Bots have Wallhacks and a Bot running from the Killer basically immediatly and wallhacking against him would be really hard to catch).
So even if the Killer Bots are decent in this video (I dont like this Content Creator, so I did not watch it), I would not expect the same Level in 1v4. Because in 2v8 there is a reason to make the Bots good, since they would support another player and a Bot on the Level of a typical Survivor-Bot would probably still turn the game into a 1v8. But in a 1v4, there is not really any need to make the Bot good.
Which is also a reason why I really dread the day they bring Killer Bots into Public Matches, since I want to play against actual humans and dont want to beat a bad Bot (same I dislike them as Survivors, I think Bots overall were a terrible mistake and should not exist outside of Custom Games).
A Survivor-Bot is not better and probably even worse than no player.
I've had several games in which a survivor bot has played better than the sore loser they replaced, even going so far as to escape with said bot. You're underestimating how bad players can be.
As for this killer bot, yes I'd expect a worse performance in 1v4. This Nurse got a 7K but mostly because the streamer was 'supporting' them by pressuring and kicking gens. Had the survivors been, or been able to be, efficient on gens, it would have been little more than a 1K or 2K tops. So translated to 1v4 they'd be lucky to get one kill.
But the Nurse bot is surprisingly effective with Blinks and chases, which is impressive.
The Trapper bot on the other hand is abysmal in chase and his power hurts him more than aids him. The Trapper bots I've seen will; drop chase immediately to go out of their way to break a pallet, drop chase to reset a trap in an awful position, stand around aimlessly 'deciding' whether to go for traps, pallets, gens or survivors.
You can actually game the Trapper bot by playing distraction, if someone else is being chased, just drop a random pallet or disarm a random trap, the bot won't know what to do.
I think the AI as it is currently will struggle with all killers who don't have simple chase powers. Any killer with a secondary power like traps, too much going on.
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Chests are only 'not worth it' if you treat the game like a straight sprint.
The game might be able to be boiled down to a race against the clock, but that doesn't mean time costs are linearly comparable.
If option A takes 30 seconds and option B takes 40 seconds, it doesn't necessarily mean option A is the best way if it's also the riskiest.
E.g. opening a chest to get a medkit to heal up can be the better play to avoid goung down in one hit.
Similarly a toolbox isn't going to refund the time it cost to open the chest, but like Potential Energy, the benefit of repairing a gen a few seconds faster could be all the difference between winning or losing the game.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783171#Comment_3783171
I like how the OP and others can't just admit that they want a guaranteed 4k in a 2v1.
"If the survivors have lost so bad that their situation is unwinnable I'm already the winner so give me my kills" or something, is what I've literally seen when asked why a 2K should become a de facto 4K.
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@Cadpig said:
I saw a suggestion that the Pig traps be changed so that they can be removed at any station in 2v8. That way they aren't constantly putting the Survivor in the path of two Killers, but they still will get the Survivor to spend some time off objectives to survive.
I thought this too.
With two killers and the potential for both killers to have 'stations', e.g. Pig and Freddy, you would have to reduce the number of stations to ensure there's enough capacity for both killers and chests to spawn.
So for Pig, have just three Jigsaw boxes spawn, and have survivors able to search boxes multiple times. You still get the RNG for how many searches are required, but if the killers are camping two of the boxes you can go to the third and use all your searches there.
But three is the mimum you could have due to having two killers. If that's too few, or if there are killers who need significantly more (Alien and it's tunnels for example) then I don't think stations are going to work at all.
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I found the game booted me out of a match just as I was about to win relatively often during 2v8, with no matchmaking penalty.
Was definitely suspicious as it didn't once happen mid-game, always when it was down to the last 1/2 survivors and they were caught out positioned.
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Yeah, disappointed that this 'collection' is just one skin for a new character.
I'd love to get some more characters from Alien/s, as well as Amanda Ripley.
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Good idea that shouldn't have any problems implementing.
I do have an alternative preference though, probably more difficult to implement and would need testing, and could change up gameplay a bit. I think that players should be able to be 'pushed' out of the way, with a bit of resistance of course.
Let's say a killer is standing still, and a survivor is running 'into' them. This would result in the survivor pushing the killer backwards at say... 0.5m/s.
This would prevent bodyblocking from being a passive action. If you wanted to bodyblock someone you would have to continuously push in the opposite direction, with the likely chance of getting the direction slightly off and ultimately sliding past them once they've moved a little.
This could also alter player-player interactions in genera and could lead to more nuanced interactions. In this sense it would also be a slight nerf to survivors bodyblocking a hook, particularly if the relative 'weight' of a killer increases while carrying a survivor, tipping the scales so that the killer has more 'force' than a bodyblocking survivor and that survivor is 'only' slowing the killer down rather than outright blocking them.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781677#Comment_3781677
I don't think i've ever seen a killer throw a match once in over 8 years of this game, a few times they went AFK went the gates got opened after being bullied for 10 minutes straight but they were gonna lose anyways. Farming is something that almost never happens as well I imagine because ive had a grand total of 3, yes three farming matches in the last 2 years. Bots are also free kills that inflate the kill rates as well so that only further proves the point.
Giving hatch is something I haven't thought about but then again is extremely rare from my perspective. Being given hatch once in every couple hundred games on average. And that's only because my username and collecting items for Huntress's and them giving me hatch that way.
I let the last survivor go (whether hatch or gate) in just about every game unless I have a challenge/daily to get 4 kills or x amount of kills.
And while that might make me an outlier, in my experience as a survivor giving hatch isn't all that rare. I see it maybe 10-20% of the time. Or at least 10-20% of the time the killer is in a position to 4K.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781839#Comment_3781839
the 20% debuff is off-set by SWF being more efficient at the game. your teammate are suppose to be better/stronger because they're a swf. The goal of the changes is to reduce escape rate to 49% →40% to be in line with soloq.I highly doubt this is actual escape for reference, i think strong swf escape way more than that vs most of killer cast but anyway. we're just using a number showcase the goal.
When you have to play with those people who have Debuffs, how is this not punishing for yourself as well, even if you are Solo?
I wouldn't consider a punishment as soloq player. i'd consider a balance change for SWF where SWF has 112 charges to complete generators just like 80 →90 charge change. Me as solo player would stay at 90 charges.
Like i said, i am not really for this type of change because it creates target prioritization for killer. Like i want to now target soloq players because of repair efficiency+weaker player/weak link of the team and ignore swf even more then what it currently is. I'd rather that soloq have bond-level aura reading and if solo survivor is speed-running the game too hard, then perhaps starting buff killer in some way.
I am not opposed said changes, but i think it is different route to balancing.
This is all academic because SWFs don't have a guaranteed advantage.
People can simply play with their friends and yet not be very good at the game. People can play with their friends and spend their time goofing around or talking about other stuff and end up playing worse than they would solo.
You're punishing these people for simply playing with their friends, making the game experience worse for those who are simply trying to enjoy a multiplayer game. That's only going to drive people away.
The SWFs that pose a supposed balance problem are a subset of the overall groups of SWFs, not all of them.
Not to mention, you're targeting gen repair times of all things. You're specifically targeting gen efficiency, which is not something you need voice chat to optimise. Anyone with good gamesense can repair gens efficiently if they're solo, particularly now we have the survivor HUD action icons.
We've seen the killer equivalent in 2v8 now. Would you say the same there? Should killer premades have a -10% penalty to their movement speed if they queue up together? Or should survivors in 2v8 get 20% faster repairs if the killers are a premade?
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I personally wouldn't have a problem with this and would gladly switch up my perks to coordinate with my team.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781422#Comment_3781422
Because free escapes are fair, but not if they count towards statistics.
Without the hatch, the game is over the moment the second survivor is killed, and every 2K becomes an automatic 4K.
This means the game has to be balanced around a 2K being the optimum target for killers, and a 1K being the average.
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Yes.
The ability to pick yourself up unlocks only when there are no survivors standing. As soon as one survivor is standing again it deactivates.
This way it only activates when ALL survivors are down. Which means it only comes into play when the killer either slugs all survivors at once, or when slugging for the 4K.
(And even then it doesn't prevent the killer slugging one survivor and then camping that survivor to flush out the one remaining, but it does mean the killer can't slug one and go hunting for the last. This means the killer has to choose between camping the slug or risking the slug getting up when they down the last. The benefit here is that the penultimate survivor found isn't necessarily guaranteed to die if the killer decides to choose risk, which means no more perpetual hiding when it's 2v1)
Regular slugging for pressure throughout the course of the trial is unaffected. If there is a survivor standing, that survivor is still pressured to rescue their teammates.
(Or if they're the last standing survivor, incentivised to take a hook state to give their slugged teammate/s a chance at getting up and making a rescue play. Either way the killer isn't losing pressure as they get a hooked survivor in exchange)
The problematic part of the Unbreakable PTB was that survivors could go down in safe positions and either force a catch-22 situation where the killer couldn't pick them up, or remove pressure by having their teammates help be unnecessary.
This does away with that entirely, and actually solves the main problem that slugging poses, being the extreme trolling cases.
In addition to this, I'd also like basekit yellow Mori, hookstates on the killer HUD, and the ability for survivors to hold the sprint button while down to bleed out 2x faster. Best options for everyone.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781366#Comment_3781366
The one from Legion is also pretty bad. Since you want people to heal and waste time.
You don't want everyone healthy though, because that forces you into using Frenzy when you could otherwise locate an injured survivor and down them.
As Legion you want survivors falling into the 'don't bother healing' trap so you can catch them injured. Otherwise you run around injuring everyone with Frenzy, maybe down one, then find everyone else healed up and you're back at square one.
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The Broken status is generally intended to prevent someone immediately healing after a hit.
If you've hooked them, you've already bypassed the problem that Broken exists to address.
If anything, hooking a survivor should remove any persisting Broken status, as a tunnel deterent.
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@Emeal said:
Its true that Tunnelers already have a target in mind,
but knowing who would be the best target to tunnel would just make the problem worse, right?Tunnellers target the last person hooked.
You can easily remember the last person you hooked.
Displaying hook states wouldn't be giving them any new information.
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@totallynotamegmain said:
I’ve really wondered how doctor would work on maps that are twice as big, consider the fact that his static can’t even hit all of the normal map, how much would they increase it to compensate for that 🤔
Even better:
Doctors Static Blast hits survivors within the terror radius of either killer.
2 x 32m radii is the equivalent area as one 46m radius, so it's basically the same as running both Calm addons.
This serves as your Team Skill and adds a new dynamic to how you interact with your teammate. You ideally want to use Static Blast when you're apart to maximise coverage.
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@I_CAME said:
A group of comp players did the same thing except they didn't even use his power. They got a 90% kill rate if i'm remembering correctly. I'm done with people acting like it's hard to play killer in pub matches.
Statistical outliers.
If your examples of comp players are getting 90% kill rates while the average sits at around 60%, then the majority of killers have less than 60% kill rates.
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780773#Comment_3780773
Why? There has been over 1000 winstreak as killer?
This is very good data and to say it's not is disingenuous. It is just to be taken with a grain of salt as there are many variables like player gametime, mmr ect.
The fact that you bring up the 1000 kill win steak is precisely why this is bad data.
1000 kill winsteaks exist.
1000 kill winsteaks are not a common occurrence among the playerbase as a whole, and that fact that they exist doesn't imply killers have a 100% win rate. It is the sole experience of a singler player who themselves are a statistical outlier.
Likewise, these 100 games are the experience of a single player. Their own skill level, and their experience with Trapper, is going to have a much greater effect on the data.
There's nothing here to extrapolate and infer about the game as a whole. All this data really shows is that this redditor is good at playing Trapper. Given that they managed an above average win rate while imposing a handicap upon themselves.
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@NerfDHalready said:
either is fine but i'd prefer removal for full rng. them staying the same is the worst option because "just balance maps" isn't a sensible solution, it's not possible. you can't balance rpd, lery's or dds so they magically reach the same strength level against entire killer roster.
Which is previsely why map offerings are necessary.
You say we should have 'full rng' as if having the full map roster is fair for every killer or build. But the fact is that there are certain killers and builds that don't have an equal shot at a favourable map with the entire roster.
In the most general sense, there are far more 'survivors sided' maps than there are killer sided maps. So already survivors benefit more from 'full rng' than killers do.
Then you factor in that most of the 'killer sided' maps are the indoor ones, however these aren't favourable for ranged or high mobility killers, which means the likes of Huntress and Billy have a lower number of favourable maps in the full roster.
On the other hand, stealth killers find indoor maps to be far more favourable than the outdoor maps, even against otherwise 'killer sided' outdoor maps, so they have an even smaller percentage of favourable maps within the full roster.
Lastly there's Mirror Myers, who is so disproportionately suited to indoor maps that he may as well have 5 viable maps and 45 automatic DC maps.
The 'full rng' isn't fair as it is.
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I'd be wary of buffing CoH, as that was the problem child that ruined Boons as a concept.
I think Boons are finally in a more or less equitable place now that general buffs are called for.
Increase the radius a bit.
Reduce the volume of the sound it makes so it's harder for killers to find.
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So how am I supposed to avoid survivors on gens when I'm in a chase with the killer, or find survivors when I'm injured and need healing?
Empathy is one of the most effective aura skills for survivors as it can show you where the killer is, where the chase is going, and help you heal up injured teammates quicker.
Why should the minority of bad actors ruin things for the rest of us?
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My suggestions for killers and classes:
@Seraphor said:
With 2v8 destined to make a comeback with some improvements at some point in the future, I just thought I'd theorycraft a little and give what my suggestions for it could be expanded with, although I'm sure BHVR have ideas for it already, I hope these ideas would be considered.
KillersAn expanded killer roster is a must. I'm not sure if licensed killers will be included, but I'm going to assume not for the sake of this. I'm not expecting an exhaustive killer roster for the next 2v8 mode, so I'm thinking the following 5 original killers would make good additions, and double the roster.
HagLisa has to introduce Hex Totems to 2v8, there's no way around it. In turn, I think survivors should get a new class that makes use of totems, but more of that later. I don't think Ruin as is would make a good addition to 2v8, but with the expectation that there won't be a vast amount of Hex perks added to 2v8 anyway, I think a more generic and simple route would be best.
Team Skill: When a survivor triggers a trap, they scream and their aura is revealed to both killers for 5 seconds. When a survivor wipes a trap away, their aura is revealed to both killers for 3 seconds.
Innate Skill: 5 Hex totems are ignited at the start of the match, each totem reduces action speeds (repairs, heals, chests and exit gates) of survivors by 3%, up to a maximum of 15%. Survivors are inflicted with Oblivious while interacting with a totem. Increases speed of setting traps by 30% and range of teleport by 12.5%.
Hag would make a decent support killer similar to Trapper, but with her traps being a little less lethal, particularly if out of range to teleport to, she gets slowdown in the form of Hexes to make up for it.
DoctorHerman's main gimmick is having a virtual map presence, while he's more or less a basic killer with no mobility, he can 'appear' to be everywhere, whether by illusion or via Static Blast or even survivor-survivor static transference. So the best way to synergise would be to extend this to the other killer to build on this virtual presence, particularly given how large the 2v8 maps are.
Team Skill: Survivors within the terror radius of either killer are struck by Static Blast. Illusionary Doctors can also take on the visage of the other killer.
Innate Skill: Tier II Madness spawns Illusionary Killers and Tier III Madness triggers a permanent red stain.
Doctor effectively gets double the effective area of Static Blast coverage with two distinct 32m radii (3200m square each), which is equivalent to a 46m terror radius (6600m square) or both Calm add ons, which I don't think is unreasonable for a significantly larger map. There's also the chance that these terror radii overlap and reduce your effective coverage as well. But in light of how versatile this could be, and the chaos it would inflict on survivors, especially with some stronger killer partners, I'd forego any adjustments to Static Shock. The illusionary killers are a novelty more than anything.
SpiritSimilar to Wraith, Rin is a rapid moving ambush killer, but unlike Wraith it doesn't make sense for her to grant her companion a stealth ability, both to differentiate her from Wraith and avoid redundancy in a Spirit/Wraith pairing. I think her lethality should shine when cooperating with the other killer, as she's already going to be strong in a solo situation.
Team Skill: Phasing within 4m of the other killer grants them a +60% speed boost for 3 seconds or while still within 4m of the Spirit. Both killers can still see the aura of the other killer while Spirit is Phasing.
Innate Skill: Increases duration of Phase by 3.5 seconds and speed of Phase by 15%.
Didn't want to give Spirit too much in the way of buffs as she would be a pretty strong killer anyway, but the duration/speed increases would help her to traverse the larger maps a little easier.
ClownAdmittedly I'm not well versed in Clown, I don't own him, I don't really like playing against him, but I think he could work quite well in 2v8 and his power is perfectly suited to assisting the other killer.
Shared Skill: Both killers can make use of the speed increse from yellow bottles. If both killers pass through the same yellow bottle mist at the same time, their speed increase lasts for 3 extra seconds. Direct bottle hits reveal that survivors aura for 5 seconds.
Innate Skill: (I'll leave his basekit/add-on adjustments for someone more experienced, probably include additional bottles or something like Huntress gets more hatchets)
LegionLegion is a tricky one. Being able to rapidly injure survivors is mitigated by the inability to down them while in frenzy, but that isn't as restrictive when there's another killer about, however without the same speed as Legion the other killer can't really capitalise on that too easily. So I figure info could be the perfect shared skill here, in exchange for a slightly less lethal power (similar to Billy) so that essentially Legion is nerfed in order to provide assistance to the other killer.
Team Skill: Survivors hit by Feral Frenzy are revealed by killer instinct to the other killer for 4 seconds. (basically the inverse of Legion, while Legion sees survivors who haven't been hit, the other killer sees the survivors who have been hit, for a short period, allowing the other killer to combo off Legion if positioned correctly)
Innate Skill: Survivors are now only revealed by killer instinct for 4 seconds upon activating Feral Frenzy, hitting a survivor with Feral Frenzy, or when entering your terror radius during Feral Frenzy. A fifth hit is no longer an instant down, instead Legion can continue to hit non-deepwound survivors up to 5 times in succession. The 5th hit will still inflict deepwound but will also immediately end Feral Frenzy and hinder Legion for a couple seconds.
SurvivorsChange to unlockable skill: In addition to activating on death hook, I would add in a further caveat. It would also activate when three survivors remain in the trial, regardless of hookstates. This would partially hinder killers from slugging the final three to prevent the hatch from opening.
In light of how effective and oppressive a double-team can be for killers, I think something should be added to make it a little more viable for survivors to play around these situations. Considering that killers in this situation have the ability to doubletap survivors and burn through health states in an instant, without any avenue of escape for the survivor. I think the best thing to add would be an Endurance effect that kicks in only when chased by both killers at once. This would provide one additional health state, so a 50% increase in health states, to counteract the fact that killers are effectively 100% more lethal.When chase is triggered with a 2nd killer, you gain the Endurance effect for 10 seconds.
This is still limited to 10 seconds, so you can't indefinitely occupy both killers time, but it does give you that window of time to make a play that isn't guaranteed death. Some people are going to think this is too much, to which I say to keep in mind this is still only available when on death hook, or when only three survivors remain, it's more of an anti-tunnel mechanic than anything.Some people are going to think this isn't enough, to which I say that 10 seconds might not seem like a long time, but it is precisely the time the second killer is likely to make their attack, and at the very least, it will give you a chance to make it to another vault or pallet.
New class: SeerMaximum: 2 per trial
Aura Skill: Able to see the aura of totems within 16 meters.
Innate Skill: Activates on cleansing or blessing a totem. While injured and entering a locker, remaining in that locker for 7 seconds will recover a health state, upon exiting the locker after 7 seconds, you see the auras of any survivors or killers within 24 meters for 4 seconds, and the skill deactivates.
Team Skill: Can bless one totem to grant the following effects; within a 24 meter radius, survivors auras and scratch marks are hidden, and persists for 3 seconds after leaving the area. When a killer snuffs this totem, their aura is revealed to all survivors for 5 seconds.
New class: LooterMaximum: 2 per trial
Aura Skill: Able to see the aura of unopened chests and undepleted items within 16 meters.
Innate Skill: Begin the trial with 3 tokens. Unlocks the ability to rummage through a chest for an additional item, consuming a token. As long as you have at least 1 token, your aura is hidden while performing unlocking actions and the sound of your unlocking action is reduced by 75%.
Team Skill: Improves the item efficiency of yourself and other survivors within 8 meters by 33%.
These two new classes are each limited to only 2 per trial, rather than 4 as with the other classes, simply because their effects can be problematic if stacked too much. More than 2 Boon totems would be overpowered, meanwhile multiple survivors fighting over chests to open would get very tiresome, and littering the trial with multiple rummaged items, particularly toolboxes, could be too effective for genrushing.
It's my hope that by encouraging engagement with side objectives, totems and chests, it helps improve the variety of survivor actions and overall slows the game down a little, while the protection from aura reading makes it a little easier to evade killers and slows down the killer snowball too.Although I have to say I would happily trade Legion and Spirit for Ghostface, Myers and/or Bubba.
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I agree that it can be "too effective", however, it's kinda the whole point of the game mode.
I think what could be added is another effect to the survivors unlockable skill. When on last hook, if you trigger chase with both killers you gain Endurance for x seconds.
This would give you one extra health state when doubleteamed on your last hook. Considering that the killers are essentially doubly as lethal and have the ability to burn through twice a many health states, giving the survivor 50% more health states in this scenario shouldn't be unreasonable.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780197#Comment_3780197
I've noticed it doesn't work on alot of them. I have one that's "Get X kills by any means" and I'm getting no progress.
Yeah, I've managed to complete the "hook x survivors during EGC" challenges in 2v8, however the "complete x sacrifices during EGC" doesn't seem to work.
Meanwhile the "injure x survivors" challenges seem to progress even when the other killer injures them.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Because when you actually relieve the survivors' pressure to do gens and nothing but gens, they voluntarily slow the game down by trying to get any scraps of BP they can from the match.
It's why, if people want to slow the pace of the game in general, we shouldn't be increasing base gen times or buffing slowdown. Those things only put maximal pressure for survivors to do gens. Or, to translate it into forum killer speak: "they're forced to gen rush, there's just no other way to play the game if they want a chance at escaping".
This is kinda like saying "if killers were more powerful they wouldn't need to camp and tunnel".
Players are going to optimise their games however they can, and if there's a way they can win even more, even faster, they will.
It may technically be correct, but it doesn't always work out in practice that doing the opposite of a problem solves that problem.
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@alpha5 said:
Since killers are allowed to kick gens hiding is the only strategy left. So far every suggested solution I have read is an immediate loss for both remaining survivors and I don't have a good solution either.
Not a direct solution, but an indirect tool to mitigate both this situation, and tunneling/genrushing:
Repair speeds scale based on the number of survivors sacrificed/number of gens repaired.
Each sacrificed survivor increases repair speeds by 10%.
Each generator repaired decreases repair speeds by 5%.
Values may need tweaking, but the gist of it is that either side 'stomping' the other instigates a snowball-dampening effect. Genrush = the last couple gens are harder. Tunnel = the last few gens are quicker.
This would make repairing gens when you're down to the last 2 survivors more feasible, particularly if one of them can distract the killer.
It's not going to eliminate immersed and selfish survivors, but it'll provide a viable alternative for survivors who don't want to play this hiding game but feel they have to.
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780081#Comment_3780081
The problem is that they've already tried to rework many of these maps, but the changes are never enough. Both Garden of Joy and Eyrie of Crows were made smaller and they changed some tiles, but they remain very surivor sided.
Haddonfield is heavily killer favored if you just ignore certain parts of the map and only play around the strong areas. But again, they've reworked this map like 3 times now, and I highly doubt they're willing to try again at this point.
I think your example with perks is unreasonable, because all players aren't assigned perks at random, they have to be chosen before the trial. Whereas by default, the map is chosen at random, and you have to go out of your way to bring a map offering to prevent this. Now I won't get into the perk meta, that's a whole other issue, but I gotta say Chaos Shuffle was great, and I'd love to get a random build for a BP bonus or something.
Maps don't need to be 100% balanced. It's not necessary or feasible. There are always going to be maps that are killer sided, survivor sided, stealth sided, ranged sided, etc. That's part of the reason why map offerings need to stay.
What I keep saying is that a much better solution, that doesn't just straight up delete a facet of game expression and reduce the game to a lesser state, is thus:
If we presume that leaving maps completely up to RNG is favourable, then we're presuming that you are as likely as not to get a map that favours your side.
Ergo, there are as many survivor sided maps as there are killer sided maps, and you have a roughly 50/50 chance at a decent game.
Now, if we add map variations to realms that only have a single option, and ensure that within the maps of a given realm there are roughly equal killer sided and survivor sided options, then this RNG is preserved. This way playing a map offering does not guarantee your side an advantage. It may, depending on the exact make up of those maps, tipe the RNG a little more in your favour, but it's still up to RNG.
So adding maps to existing reslms is the answer, and if maps can never be 100% balanced, you play into that and ensure that a given realm has options that tend to both sides.
This means that for the killers/builds that don't have a 50/50 chance without offerings, such as Mirror Myers who has a roughly 5% chance of getting a fair map without an offering, they can play an offering for a realm that suits them, and ultimately still get that 50/50 chance at a fair game.
Because the problem with removing map offerings that that not every killer or build would get a fair 50/50 shot with the entire map pool in play. It's impossible to ensure that among all available maps, 50% are killer sided, 50% are survivor sided, 50% favour stealth killers, 50% favour ranged killers, 50% favour mobility killers, 50% favour M1 killers, 50% have LoS blockers, 50% don't have LoS blockers, 50% have verticality, 50% are on a single level, etc. It's much easier to balance maps on one axis, that one being a general killer/survivor favourability.
Some killers only have a handful of viable realms, likewise some survivor builds arent viable on every realm. You need map offerings to make some killers/builds more viable.
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780075#Comment_3780075
If Map offerings provided no advantage, sweaty players wouldn't bring them. Take a look at this. Yes, they are community gathered stats, but they're the best we have:
https://nightlight.gg/maps/viewer?sort=kill&shown=pick%7Ckill%7Cdist&start_days=28There's a huge disparity in escape rate across the board on different maps. Some maps are very clearly killer sided, some are very clearly survivor sided. And I didn't even look up this list until after writing this comment, and yet, all the maps I've mentioned are down there at the bottom with the highest escape rates.
The advantage map offerings bring are absolutely not just psychological.
There's a huge disparity in escape rate across the board on different maps.
Then this is a reason to rework those maps.
If there was a huge disparity in escape rates with different perks, you wouldn't call for all perks to be deleted. You'd nerf those perks.
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3779667#Comment_3779667
Crazy to see this suggestion so far down in the thread. This is literally the most obvious choice. Now we have map bans and we fix the map offering problem.
This would only make the problem worse.
Survivors get to ban 4 out of the 5 killer sided maps, while killer gets to ban 1 of the 30 survivor sided maps.
The option to choose your realm still gets removed, deleting mirror myers, and you haven't solved the problem map offerings supposedly pose anyway.
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780068#Comment_3780068
Oddly hostile comment, especially claiming I'm sweaty and miserable when I haven't insulted you at all.
The top MMR players aren't just 1% by the way, there's no way on earth I'm top 1% MMR, but I've reached the point where I go against map offerings very regularly and it's extremely unfun. There's a reason why so many people complain about them and that's because they're a net negative on the game experience for a lot of players.
In my experience, when I play against casual players, they tend to bring BP offerings, not map offerings.
They're not. The problem with map offerings is psychological and an issue of confirmation bias. I'm sick of seeing this fallacy repeated time and time again, and I don't want to see some of the most fun parts of this game deleted to satiated it.
You don't lose because the coordinated SWF you faced brought a map offering. You lose because they're a coordinated SWF.
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3777271#Comment_3777271
BHVR have proven many times that they can't just "rework" problematic maps. Midwich will still be extremely good for Nurse and stealth killers after the rework. Eyrie of Crows and every single Badham map is just awful to play as M1 killer, and most other killers for that matter. Garden of Joy is still terrible, but at least it's a 50/50 with the offering now. The Game is poorly designed, and very hard to play around for M1 killers if survivors simply communicate when the killer tries to drop chase, which is what you often have to do on that map.
DBD is not a balanced game, what keeps it balanced is the abundance of RNG. RNG map, RNG amount of pallets, RNG tiles. Remove RNG and the balancing falls apart.
Claiming that a map offering gives a "miniscule advantage" is outrageous. If you play in high MMR, you'll be seeing map offerings every single match, and it's tiresome because it's the same maps every time. And if I end up on a map that doesn't favor me at random, I can at least know that the enemy haven't brought a build around the map as well, like using Balanced Landing on RPD, etc.
Map offerings could be removed tomorrow and I wouldn't mind at all, nothing of value would be lost to me. I only bring BP offerings anyway. If I were to bring Sacrifical Wards for every map offering, I'd run out far sooner than people bringing map offerings.
"Nothing of value would be lost" only for the sweatiest of the top 1% of players.
For everyone else you're dumbing down the game and removing features that make the game fun.
No more mirror myers, no more playing on a map that you enjoy purely for fun.
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Map offerings are only a problem if maps are a problem, so fix the maps.
100% balance is not feasible or necessary, so it's not an impossible task.
1. Rework the worst offenders, notably Badham.
2. Introduce new maps or map variations to realms that currently only have a single option. With multiple options per realm, you still have RNG within the pool of a given offering, so that offering is not a guaranteed advantage.
This way, we're not removing valid gameplay options for players. Offerings are still useful, for completing certain challenges, playing certain killers/builds, and wanting to go to a given realm for fun/aesthetics should be an option.
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@Bookern said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3779762#Comment_3779762
im just gonna assume legion will just injure but cant down so old legion chaining will be back and what so op about oni?
2v8 sees survivors injured a hell of a lot more than 1v4, then you factor in killers like Legion who can rapidly injure, and Oni would have virtually 100% power uptime, and constant one-hit downs.
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@Bookern said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778928#Comment_3778928
people already think theirs already absurd combos with the original 4 and what happened to the "balance doesnt matter in this mode" every surv been saying
Balance can be loose without being thrown put entirely.
They nerfed Billy to make him work in this mode, there are other killers that will potentially need the same treatment, such as Legion or Oni.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3779607#Comment_3779607
Same here.
Rank-based Matchmaking with a big Rank Reset was peak DBD for me. When you got set back to Rank 11 or so after being at Rank 1, you had good games for like 3 weeks. People who were really good ranked up fast and played against others who ranked up fast and people who ranked up slow, played against people who also ranked up slow.Only the last week before Rank Reset the Matchmaking was not that good because players who struggled reaching Red Ranks ended up in Red Ranks and so the games were less quality.
The problems arised when they decided to make the Rank Reset more lenient so that you can only get set back one color. This meant that those people who needed time to rank up were in Red Ranks basically immediatly, lowering the overall quality of games.
And BHVRs reasoning for that back then was strange. They said that they dont want people who dont play as much to miss out on things (reaching Rank 1 in this case). Which is such a nonsense explanation, since it is normal and SHOULD be normal that players who play more also get more. And they invalidated their own reasoning with the introduction of MMR and Grades, where only players who play a lot will reach Grade 1 and the most BPs.
Returning to Rank-based Matchmaking with a huge Rank Reset would be a blessing. DBD has always been less fun with MMR, especially because their way of getting or losing MMR is the worst way possible and the low soft cap of their MMR-System, which basically makes it feel like there is no MMR at all.
Yes, having the game be unplayable for 1-2 weeks each month while everyone of every skill level is sweating to rank up was so much fun.
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That would be neat. Have two activation conditions: last remaining survivor or 10 hooks, which would allow you to mori at 2 remaining survivors.
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@joeyspeehole said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3777992#Comment_3777992
Hopefully they don't slug- camp the three people, if they slug them near each other.
They'd have to down them all right next to each other. At that point it's the survivors mistake.
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Feng is the worst by a landslide.
Worst scream, worst cries of pain.
I have to mute my game whenever she's in play.
I've lost 3 cats who ran away from home the first time they heard her.
Gave my nan a stroke.
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3777294#Comment_3777294
I disagree, it depends on the circumstances... sure, killers could choose to straight up tunnel and either wait out or hit the mending because they can farm STBFL tokens. But survivors can intentionally abused their limited timed Endurance status effect to tank a hit so they can get a free speed boost as well as protect their teammates, especially if they are injured too.
If anything, I wish that Endurance is scrapped all together and reworked to instead make the Survivor have no collision with the killer, as well as no hit box until they do a conspicuous actions or even a time duration. It would help with removing hardcore "Tunneling" while removing bodyblocking by the unhook survivors to protect their rescuer.
I don't disagree with any of that.
But none of that negates the fact that protection hits can be unintentional or forced by the killer, so I'm not sure what you're disagreing with.
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Basekit yellow mori: yes
Basekit unbreakable: not in the way it has worked so far.
I think the ability to pick yourself up should only activate when all survivors are slugged. If there is any survivor available to go for the rescue, then that should be the play they have to make. But if all remaining survivors are down, one of them can pick themselves up. Once one gets up it deactivates again and they have to rescue the other(s), until all are downed again, and repeat.
This would only affect killers slugging all survivors (very rare) or killers slugging for the 4K (tiresome and unnecessary). It would make 4K slugging pointlessly risky, as you're now wasting your own time moreso than the survivors.
Slugging as part of normal play throughout the match would remain untouched and a valid pressure tactic.
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Maps don't need to be 100% perfectly balanced. The vast majority are fine as they are, and the small advantage the others give is vastly overblown, and in most cases negated by the fact that it is one of many maps within a realm.
I've played this game long enough, I've escaped and died on every map multiple times, I've 4K'd and 0K'd on every map multiple times, I've won when my opponents have played map offerings and I've lost when I've played map offerings. The problem is very very rarely the map, it still takes skill and co-ordination from your opponent to actually use it against you to their advantage. Sometimes you just get outplayed.
There's also a ton of confirmation bias when it comes to maps.
When do you find map offerings to be a problem? It's when they're played by highly co-ordinated SWFs right? So you don't think that the fact they're a highly co-ordinated SWF might be a bigger factor in why you lost that game?
No, must be the map. There must be something you can blame besides the performance of the players.
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Why wouldn't the majority of players be playing the time limited game mode that's about to be removed?
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I think Clown would be perfect for 2v8, his power is almost already there, yellow bottles speeding up the other killer and all.
While there are some killers that probably won't work, bear in mind that they can change killer powers to make them work. Billy lost his instadown in order to fit into 2v8, they can do similar things for the likes of Legion, Spirit, Deathslinger and Blight.
The only ones I don't see working are the killers who either already exist in multiple places (Twins and Knight) or killers with unique interactive objects (Plague, Freddy, Sadako, Xeno, Pig, and maybe Wesker/Nemesis/Singularity for their chest items)
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3777271#Comment_3777271
If no: the problem is not the map, it's the psychological impact of seeing a map offering.
mhm definitely the chances of naturally getting select broken maps is equal to getting it with an offering, that makes sense.
"Broken maps"
So the problem is the map?
Awesome, fix the map
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@Slan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3777294#Comment_3777294
Not necessarily. Survivors always have the option to run away in a different direction from the one who rescued them, thereby it is the survivors who force the situation, not the killer
If you get hit within 10 meters of an injured survivor, it counts as a protection hit.
All the killer has to do is hit the unhooked survivor immediately after they get unhooked, and it'll count as a protection hit, and they'll go straight down.
So yes necessarily. If there's a way to abuse it, it will be abused.
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It is?
Their default look is a brown outfit.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3777271#Comment_3777271
Fixing map offering is thousand times easier than reworking maps which often ends up with worse maps, though
The truth is it's much more reliable, easier, and cheaper
Perks are also difficult to balance, but the solution isn't to remove all perks.
Survivor cosmetics can make it easier/harder to see them, but the solution isn't to remove cosmetics.
Some survivors have an advatage through quieter cries and footsteps, the solution isn't to force everyone to play as Dwight.
Did you read my last paragraph? That's also easier and doesn't remove a feature of the game.
And again, if a map is truely so imbalanced as to be unfair to play, it needs to be reworked anyway. If it's bad enough when an offering is used, then it's bad enough when an offering is not used, and that map shouldn't be in the rotation regardless.
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Protection hits can be unintentional or forced by the killer.
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Which maps are "so unfair" that your blood boils when you see an offering for it and you want to quit the game?
Does the same thing happen when you end up on that same map without an offering?
If yes: that map needs to be reworked.
If no: the problem is not the map, it's the psychological impact of seeing a map offering, you would be absolutely fine if you simply look away, or if they made map offerings hidden.
Map offerings have never been the problem, and I'm kinda sick of this fallacy at this point. They serve a valuable tool for game expression and are just as valid as any other offering, or your ability to choose which perks you use, or which character you play.
Plenty of people use them as purely aesthetic, some use them for the miniscule advantage they can sometimes offer, but they're really no different to other offerings that also give you an advantage such as Coins, Oaks, etc.
And if any individual map offering truly provides enouh of an advantage that its use is unfair, then the solution is to rework that map.
The best thing they can do, which they have started doing, is to add more maps to single-map realms. This gives you multiple options for each offering, reducing your chances of being sent to any specific map, but still preserving the aesthetic intent of the offering. If you have a 50% chance of a map sending you to a killer/survivor sided map, then that's really no different to getting any map at random.
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@Readycent said:
Can someone loop me in on what exactly this issue is? I'm incredibly confused.
A few topics at the bottom of the first page/top of second page of General Discussion should clear it up for you.