Seraphor
Seraphor
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The mods are rightfully (according to forum rules) closing these topics. But if you ask me theyre being generous in both how long they're allowing them to stay open, and in that they're only closing the topics and not outright deleting them. No one is being silenced in this regard, things said haven't been redacted (except for the odd coment that legit breaks rules on hate speech).
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Killer queues today are manageable, so it's not necessary.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3775421#Comment_3775421
This. They (BHVR) have a pinned message at this very moment from about almost 2 years ago that shares a unique experience and the level of impact that inclusivity has on some of us. This was right upon when they revealed David was a member of the LGBTQ+ community. Which I think many of us shared a similar experience, and celebrated this wholesome moment.
It would be rather absurd not to take notice of the baggage and controversy that comes with FNAF creator's questionable choices. It seems odd but not surprising (as a company) that BHVR would want to embrace this brand as future collaboration content. It is a shame because it sort of diminishes their efforts and backtracks on their message, even if that isn't what they mean to do.
My personal opinion is that I personally don't care about the brand itself or it's creator. Even with his apology, his reasoning sounds like a single issue voter problem without the understanding the full scope of what's at stake (I have some of those in my family). We can dissect his history and go down that rabbit hole all we want, at the end of the day we are all free to make choices, even if those choices are wrong.
I do think something has to be said about the single issue voter problem, and that there is something different when it extends to a wealthy public figure and large donations. It isn't quite the same thing as an individual exercising their democratic right to vote, votes which are after all private. We wouldn't be having these conversations if it were the same thing.
Much like how there is a difference between an individual "expressing a personal opinion", and a public figure using their vast fortune and social platform to soapbox an anti-trans agenda.
It ultimately comes down to an inequality of power, and how that power is weilded.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3775473#Comment_3775473
Keep in mind Terminus from Wesker has only showed up one single time in over two years and that was a whole year after its release.
They almost always include recent perks in the Shrine when they release alongside a challenge tome for that chapter, to enable players to complete the perk specific challenges. This now happens for all original chapters and some licensed chapters.
Given how big a deal they're making of FNAF (for better or worse) I think there’s a strong possibility of a concurrent tome.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3775019#Comment_3775019
What if the survivor has really good perks?
They will be in the Shrine in the following few weeks.
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They get leaked months in advance anyway. May as well make it official.
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@Maelstrom808 said:
I still think building tokens off of chases is bad. It should be on gen repairs, saves, and healing a full health state on another survivor. Kills it for usage by teammates just hiding the whole match waiting for hatch or someone else to pop the gate, but still makes it useful for survivors that contribute to the team getting out. On the killer side, we have plenty of other ways to track/locate survivors so it's a non-issue for me.
Tokens from chases makes the most sense. You're rewarding killer engagement with stealth later on. You should be in a chase at some point in the game, and if you're not getting found and chased, then you likely don't need the tokens anyway.
The biggest problem with Distortion is having that one teammate who never gets found, and ends up a final lone survivor with no hooks. When if they had taken a chase and eaten a hook state or two, the survivors could have come out much better off. 8 hooks with 3/4 out is much better outcome for survivors than a 3K in 9 hookstates.
Lot's of tunneling cases are also likely because the other survivors have Distortion, so you're the only one the killer can find.
I actually think the 'shows when your aura is revealed' mechanic would be better suited to Spine Chill. And with it being a generic perk, it would serve as a base game alternative to Distortion, a less effective one but in a way that helps you learn the game.
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Just have Distortion only recharge while in chase.
This way you can't just hide all game, in order to get use out of the perk you have to engage with the killer.
This also serves as a soft anti-tunnel skill too, as you'll likely have your recharged tokens ready after you've been hooked.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772492#Comment_3772492
no, these changes hurt weak killers more because weak killers rely on tunneling more than strong killers. its not an insane leap of logic. this will do nothing for any killer B tier and above. literally only hurts weaker killers because those killers have to tunnel
I almost exclusively play "weak killers" (Myers, Ghostface, Pig, Dredge, Doctor) and I never intentionally tunnel or camp outside of EGC. I don't have an issue with winning. I probably have an above average win rate at around 60-65%.
This whole "killers need to camp and tunnel or they lose" has always been bunk. There are some niche scenarios where a bit of camping can be useful, usually scenarios instigated by survivors in the first place. But for the most part, if you feel you need to camp/tunnel to have a chance, you're probably doing something wrong and not applying enough pressure. Or you mistakenly believe you should be winning every game, or letting confirmation bias lead you to believe that the 40% of games you lose are somehow more significant than they are.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772350#Comment_3772350
spreading hooks is a bad strategy, which is why I mentioned that every time my swf goes against a killer doing it they lose.
so what can the killer do? well they can tunnel and camp instead
except oh wait we're making that even more difficult. there is the problem
It shouldn't be a bad strategy, that's the point.
The game needs to change to the point where spreading hooks is the best option the killer has in most cases. That will involve anti-camping/tunneling measures, but should also involve contrasting buffs to killer that aid them when spreading hooks.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771038#Comment_3771038
Devs said they put separate bp bonuses in future so 2vs8 staying does not take anything away from you then?
Unless then next iteration does nothing to solve the queue discrepancy and they're forced to disable the incentives on 1v4 again.
Oh did you also notice how page 2 of the challenge tome has zero killer challenges as well?
They have a lot to do if they're going to get more people playing survivor.
Survivors need something new and interesting, in 2v8 playing killer with friends is the new and interesting thing, and it's going to be hard to top that. At the very least, survivors need a way of dealing with being 'double-teamed', some bonus effect that procs when 2 killers are chasing you at once. But I'm not sure that alone would be enough.
They also need to drastically increase the killer roster. This will make games a little less stale for survivors, however it could also mean more people play killer once their favourite killers are playable, so it could have the opposite effect and make queues worse.
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Breakable walls, when used correctly, are a way for a killer to weaken an otherwise strong loop at a small cost.
Just removing them all isn't going to work, you just end up making a loads of maps significantly more killer sided. You'd need to rework the loops entirely.
That's not to say there aren't some breakable walls that absolutely should be changed or removed. But generally a lot of the walls on Dead Dawg, Midwich and even some on Gideon, are doing what they should be.
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Killers don't have any time sinks in this mode, you can just go from down to down to down without any downtime, particularly if you're close to each other and cutting off survivors options in chase.
I've managed to defend the last (6) gen(s) fairly well most of the time, it's even easier if you can split up and take 3 each.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771126#Comment_3771126
Killers have been having a blast. 💥 Survivors are having a lot of fun too because they get to play with big groups of close friends. Both sides are taking part just fine.
400% was just an incentive by the devs to help reduce queue times because the game mode has been so popular. Killers finally having the chance to KWF it up.It's not a success with this killer, because I can't PLAY killer.
Waiting 15/20 minutes for a 4 minute game is prohibitive. It may be fun, but that doesn't mean anything if I can't get a game to begin with.
Besides, we can't use player numbers to determine if it's a success or not. They specifically disabled role bonuses on regular 1v4 in order to entice people into playing survivor in 2v8. The data is tainted, it's not the game mode that's a success, it's the bloodpoint bonus.
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Depending on what you consider 'old', Eyrie of Crows.
It's one of the few reliable survivor sided maps left (besides Springwood), and could do with another variation that tends towards killer sided.
Perhaps a Mausoleum style map with more indoor space and a smaller overall footprint.
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I'd rather 2v8 was retired so they can work on fixing it's issues ready for the next time it comes out.
Larger killer roster.
Extra Survivor options when chased by 2 killers at once.
Those should encourage more to play survivor and ease the killer queues a bit.
Plus; some form of anti-8K-slug. Maybe everyone gets Unbreakable when there's 3 survivors left, or even just a way to bleed out faster.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770861#Comment_3770861
Because slugging is a legitimate playstyle or something, and 2v8 exists for the killer’s delight.
Throughout the course of the trial, it absolutely is.
When it's down to the last few survivors and you're doing it purely to prevent the hatch spawning, no. That's borderline exploit. The hatch spawns for a reason.
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@OmegaRejectz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770421#Comment_3770421
when did I say that? Also, there's a difference between a challenge, or, should I say, achievement. And something that is entirely out of your control and is dependent on what Killer you got matched up with
But it's not entirely out of your control.
You play enough games and you WILL encounter that killer, it's just a matter of time.
Some of these things are things you can rush through.
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When you run a live service game like DBD you tend to find yourself backed into a corner. The players might, overall, understand if the 'devs' forego a chapter to work on game health. But the shareholders won't, and neither will the employees working on the game who rely on their income from BHVR.
A 'game health' chapter, or otherwise dropping content to focus more on debugging, will just cost them too much money.
It's more likely that they'll want to find otherways of streamlining processes to free up manpower for debugging. That said, there's only so much you can accomplish by simply throwing more people at the problem.
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Got stuck in a game with 3 left, killers kept slugging us repeatedly. But we kept getting up and ended up with 2 out the hatch after I bled out on the ground.
Why would you sweat for an 8K in a limited timed mode?
Why would you waste 10 minutes of 5 peoples time for nothing when it takes you 20 minutes just to find a game?
They need to implement a 'bleed out faster' button already.
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David
Ghostface, Pig and Dredge, the latter may only be because all of Dredge's skins are fire.
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@pigslittlepet said:
It's a achievement. A entirely optional, non required, bonus feature. They can do whatever they want with them and we have no ground to complain about it.
I kinda hate the mentality that acheivements should be something you can whiz through in a single sitting.
Things like this are great. It's feels so much better getting something much rarer weeks or months later. If you get it all in the first week it kinda makes the other 11 weeks until the next chapter feel redundant.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767435#Comment_3767435
You get downed fast. That's not being tunneled. You are not using that word correctly.
I've personally been tunneled many times.
First, double-teamed and downed. Then as soon as I'm rescued, and fairly quickly at that, both killers appear and double-team me again. Even when there have been several other survivors nearby.
It's fairly easy to predict where a survivors cage will spawn, and then find them immediately after they get rescued.
If anything it's even easier to identify tunneling in 2v8 due to the improbability of it occuring by chance and the sheer number of other available and valid targets.
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While the gen bug as it was was whack and definitely shouldn't stay around in that form due to the ways it could be manipulated. I had suggested a similar but less extreme mechanic for scaling according to survivors eliminated.
Easy option: Rather than completing an entire gen, each eliminated survivor could shave 10 charges off all gens. This helps the remaining survivors cope with repairs, but sacrifices still favour the killer overall.
Complicated option: Each eliminated survivor increases repair speeds by 10%, meanwhile each completed generator decreases repair speeds by 5%. This has a similar effect, however it also works the other way and slows down the impact of genrushing if no survivors have been sacrificed. This serves as a 'snowball dampener' in both directions.
These values work out quite well as they equalise at the break point for each side. 2 remaining survivors (+20% repair speed) is where gens repairs become prohibitive, and 1 remaining gen (-20% repair speed) is where the killer loses pressure.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769314#Comment_3769314
Personally, and with the experience I have of the mode, I feel there is no way you can change the mechanics without severely hindering the killers which again would be unpalatable.
The current play style in 2v8 has quickly become ‘team up and knock down’ . Killers are tag teaming survivors to get quick downs in quick succession. It’s become a common site to have 3-4 people on hook at the same time multiple times per match now. They then make a habit of going across the map to the hooks to repeat this on rescuers and repeat the cycle. The only reason this isn’t being called out for camping or tunnelling is because there are so many people at the moment it’s manageable to cope with it. It also feeds into the quick play style BHVR have clearly tried to do for.
If you reduce the amount of people and it won’t be. You end up with the equivalent of slugging 3 people at 4 gens in the main game which is not something I want to see repeated.
The only way to combat this would be to give survivors more health states to discourage the tendency to team up for a quick one-two hit which would not be well received. With all due respect you admit yourself to not having played the mode much. I’ve played it exclusively since it launched and can see how it is right now.
I wish I could play it more.
Unfortunately the wait times make it unplayable.
So it doesn't work as 2v8.
I literally just gave suggestions two posts in a row to solve the issues you've just said.
If survivors weren't sitting ducks when faced with two killers at once, all of your issues would be moot.
Chase activates with both killers at once = survivors get extra powers. Extra speed, no scratchmarks, endurance, take your pick. Pincer movements are no longer a guaranteed down and instead become a calculated risk trade off.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769309#Comment_3769309
2v6 wouldn’t be feasible against two killers - I’ve played the mode pretty extensively and any killers who have committed to playing it are actually very strong.
Of course it would. Balance is not determined by player numbers.
Why do you think they removed hooks?
Why do you think survivors need to repair 8 gens?
You MAKE 2v6 work by changing the mechanics to favour survivors.
Have them repair 6/10 gens at 60s each.
Give them extra tools to deal with double-killer chases. (This alone would make playing survivor more appealing because it would be something new for survivors that isn't simply a faster way to die)
Stop revealing survivor auras every 2 seconds so that hiding still has its place.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768765#Comment_3768765
funny how it was mainly killers calling for a 2v8 because they thought it would be an absolute domination mode - now it’s not they’re calling for 2v6/5. It’s just proof some people arent able to be pleased.
I think the mode is really fun and no one is playing it sweaty which is what the game has desperately needed. I’m sad it’s only timed cause going back to the slowness of 1v4 is going to be a killer.
Absolutely nothing to do with dominating. You can adjust the balance to suit the numbers as they have done here by removing hooks and increasing gen numbers/decreasing gen times.
It shouldn't be 2v8 because there's simply not enough people playing survivor.
Reduce the number of survivors, but adjust balanceto account for it; give survivors extra perk effects, such as bonus chase skills that activate when chased by both killers at once. That will make playing survivor more appealing because you'll get a leg up when in a 'pincer' chase that currently has little chance of escape.
I would love to play killer in this mode, but I'm not waiting 20 minutes for a 4 minute game. Particularly when my only viable option is Wraith.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769125#Comment_3769125
you can play Huntress reasonably well on console and Hillbilly is much easier on console since he was buffed. As most survivors are kind of clueless in 2v8, it’s not like you’ve gotta worry about trying to curve much if at all.
Yet I always get the juicing Escapists who I can't hit for #########. You can't spend more than 15 seconds on a chase when you have 6 other survivors smashing gens. So any kind of looper just has to be dropped.
You're practically forced to work together as killer to cut survivors off, but unless they're all together, that leaves so many other survivors doing gens that it barely makes a difference.
And no, aiming as any ranged killer on console is virtually impossible. Maybe if I stand perfectly still and spend about 5 seconds fine tuning my aim I might accurately land a hit where the survivor was 5 seconds ago.
Give me Ghostface, Myers, Pig, Chucky, Dredge or Doctor and I'll fairly reliably 4K. But out of these five I have no options besides Wraith.
Then I jump on survivor and get massacred by a point-and-kill PC Huntress/Nurse duo. Who merely have to see you and you're dead.
There is nothing enjoyable about this game mode, not when it takes 15 minutes to find a 4 minute game you always lose.
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@tippy2k2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768501#Comment_3768501
Maybe others would be game for that but I would much rather have a good game than a really crappy game but get a ton of BP because BHVR made it 20000% bonus :D
I suppose noob players who need BP might jump at that but not me
Meanwhile I'm having crappy games as killer, yay
Trying to play with my friend who doesn't play much killer.
15 minute queues, 30 minutes when the game decides to DC one of us as we load into a lobby.
Have to play Trapper because I'm on console So Billy/Huntress/Nurse are out of the question and my friend is playing Wraith as the only option that's somewhat easy to play.
Of course everyone escapes.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768688#Comment_3768688
Im thinking maybe 2vs6 would be best and they need to add something interesting for survivors. Maybe new ways to interact with killer.
As I said in another topic: I think they missed a trick here.
While killers get a bonus skill when they 'team up', a survivor who is doubled-teamed by both killers is done for.
Instead of an unlockable skill when on death hook (or maybe as well as) there should be a situational chase skill that activates when chase is activated by both killers at the same time.
Escapist: Activates Lithe and Quick and Quiet effects for 30 seconds
Guide: Gains Stake Out tokens that can apply to other survivors on the same gen
Medic: Charges a We'll Make It effect and grants an Inner Healing token
Scout: Procs Distortion effects for 30 seconds
That would give survivors the edge needed to drop the number of survivors from 8 to 5 or 6 I think, along with reducing it from 8/13 gens to 6/9.
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@GRIG0 said:
I've been playing this mode a lot swapping roles each match (I've tried all killers) and while I had fun on both, I must say killer is the one who shines by a mile.
Survivor role is quite bland and they need to make it feel fresh, right now (as someone in another post said) doesn't matter if there are 8 survivors or 800, feels the same. I wish they removed generators and made a brand new objective or reworked them entirely to be more fun because the game itself is the same without perks variety (after all, unlike killers, survivors are just skins)
Also, why medic doesn't have "we'll make it" healing speed? Feels so useless.
Im not gonna lie, I went back to 1v4 for survivor. Bhvr should give survivor iridescent shards 😏 (jk)
Survivor role is quite bland and they need to make it feel fresh, right now (as someone in another post said) doesn't matter if there are 8 survivors or 800, feels the same.
I think they missed a trick here.
While killers get a bonus skill when they 'team up', a survivor who is doubled-teamed by both killers is done for.
Instead of an unlockable skill when on death hook (or maybe as well as) there should be a situational chase skill that activates when chase is activated by both killers at the same time.
Escapist: Activates Lithe and Quick and Quiet effects for 30 seconds
Guide: Gains Stake Out tokens that can apply to other survivors on the same gen
Medic: Charges a We'll Make It effect and grants an Inner Healing token
Scout: Procs Distortion effects for 30 seconds
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Should never have been 2v8 to begin with.
2v5 could have worked just as well, without all the changes to make killer so much easier, and the queues would have been more balanced.
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I don't know if 8 gens is the right amount, but the assumption that the ratio of survivors to gens should be 4:5 is flawed.
Survivors don't have 5 gens to do because there are 4 of them. Typically more than one survivor will be engaged with the killer the majority of the time.
And then you have the fact that 2 survivors remaining are more or less unable to complete gens if there are multiple remaining. 4:5 would then translate to 2 survivors requiring 2.5 gens to repair, but that's not happening, they'd be lucky to get 1.
So it's not 4:5 as a rule, it just happens that 5 gens is the right number for 4 survivors.
You need to factor in how many survivors are engaged with the killer, and how quickly the game can progress to only 2 survivors remaining. In a 2 v 8 scenario you could well have 4 survivors engaged with the killers at any given time (2 on hook and 2 in chase, or 2 going for a save, give or take), and it may well be that it's probable that you eliminate 6 survivors before 6 gens are complete.
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At least two hooks on everyone and a decent BP score.
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Yes.
Anyone who wants to tunnel, is going to have no problem remembering the last survivor they hooked. Hook counter would gove then no assistance whatsoever.
But if you want to maximise your hooks by spreading them out, or want to make sure you activate perks with a 'hook all survivors' prerequisite, or simply don't want to kill someone yet, you have to play these memory games.
The lack of a hook counter is literally making it harder to play fair/healthy, and encourages tunneling.
At the very least, there should be an indication when you go to pick up a dying survivor, that telegraphs if they're on death hook. At least then you could simply choose to slug instead of immediately kill them.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752889#Comment_3752889
I agree. I think this is really all Meyers needs. Though I would like to see some of his addons reworked too. Like all of the "increase movement speed when stalking" are so complete trash. Just rework them and give him something different.
Oh no I use that one with Scratched Mirror, let's me track without losing distance.
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@AggressiveFTW said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753626#Comment_3753626
I hope you see a lot more of messages like my thread, because I think many people share my opinion.
Not that it's going to make a lick of difference. It's taking place on reddit, not here on the forums, the vast majority will not see these threads. People will ask what they ask, and the devs will choose to answer who they answer.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752918#Comment_3752918
I suppose where we disagree is that I believe you need a strict definition in order to define what happened. If what happened is not the definition, then it didn't happen, regardless of personal feelings. I don't believe tunneling/gen-rushing is subjective.
In your example of someone feeling as if they were tunneled even though they were not above, you explain you feel it's defensive by saying "akshully it's not tunneling". I agree it is defensive, because someone is accusing you of something, however I believe that if someone accuses you of something you did not do, there should be no guilt in denying it, and it should not be discouraged.
I think it's a healthy attitude to own up to choices and mistakes regardless of your intent behind them, and I feel as if accusing someone of something that did not happen, even if it felt like it did, is wrong. It's wrong to accuse someone of tunneling if they didn't tunnel. It's wrong to accuse someone of gen-rushing if they didn't gen-rush.
The point of this post was to try and understand what people believe "gen-rushing" to mean. From the replies it's apparent that everyone has their own "definiton" of what it means, but then it's no longer a definition, it's an opinion.
Exactly, you believe it is accusatory, therefore you feel you need a solid definition to defend yourself against such accusation. You're thinking like a lawyer.
But a solid definition only exists if all agree upon it, or if it's irrefutable fact, which this can never be. There is no law to apply here.
Or, you choose to define it as a matter of perspective, without intent being a factor, and it's no longer accusatory. It becomes a truth of the person who experiences it.
If It's not accusatory, then you don't need to define it according to intent. There is no need for a defence.
I have no qualms accepting that I may have tunneled someone, if that's their experience. Denying it as such doesn't help the situation, it just causes everyone to double down on their opposing sides. Instead, you can say "yes I tunneled, it was not my intention". It's a more honest position to take, and the person accusing you can go away knowing they weren't targetted intentionally. If you pull out a defensive retort, they're likely to think you're being disingenuous, "they claim they weren't tunneling but I know they were" which feeds into the cycle of toxicity.
You can choose to interact like lawyers, or you can choose to interact like people playing a game for fun.
Obviously there are still fringe cases where the accusation of x is absurd, and you don't need to agree with nonsense. But if you can see that a players experience is the same whether your part was intended or not, then accelting that persons perspective is more helpful than denying it, which is borderline gaslighting.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752897#Comment_3752897
People may have opinions on what tunneling is, but I believe there is a clear cut definition of it. If a killer hooks nobody else but that person 3 times, it’s tunneling, even if they do it simply because they’re unable to find someone else or the others are too difficult to catch. In my opinion, intention doesn’t dictate what tunneling is, or what anything is even in life. You may not have intended to hurt someone by something you said or did but that doesn’t change the fact that you did. Just because you may not have meant to or wanted to doesn’t mean you didn’t do it. I myself have done this when I play killer, realizing I’ve only found 1 person and so because I personally do not support tunneling, I will literally just leave them. It’s a choice to tunnel. The only time I can agree it not being something helped is if all survivors are wearing the same outfit and they’re all anonymous. Then yeah, you probably can’t tunnel because you can’t make the choice to haha.
I don’t think you can accidentally tunnel, just like I don’t think you can accidentally gen-rush. But not everything is tunneling, and not everything is gen-rushing. I believe both have specific circumstances that must be met in order for those terms to be accurate.Perspective and intent, in my opinion, does not change fact that it’s a choice you made. Claiming you don’t have a choice feels like a refusal to own up to your own actions.
Btw if this is coming across as hostile or disrespectful in any way please know it isn’t. I respect your opinions and appreciate having this conversation.
I agree that the strictest definition, from the most objective, external/impartial perspective, would have to be one that includes intent.
But what difference does intent make to the one on the receiving end of it?
This survivor has still spent all their time in this match either in chase or on a hook, they've still been eliminated early and left with a poor score, they still haven't had the opportunity to do anything else and their experience has been dictated by the actions of others (the killer, and the other survivors for letting it happen).
But the killer didn't intend it so it's all ok? The survivor is still going to feel the way they feel.
Likewise, the killer may feel that they've done everything in their power to find, track, chase and pressure survivors. But if 5 gens still pop in under five minutes, they're bound to feel they've been cheated.
I'm not saying survivors need to slow down, or that killers need to avoid logical targets and let survivors go. There's another issue here whereby people are infering blame when the terms 'genrush' and 'tunnel' are being used. People get defensive when they're accused of these things.
These strict definitions that rely on intent are only there because we don't want to feel like we are culpable for the circumstances we're given, because we don't want to be acused of something we didn't intend.
But if the definition doesn't rely on intent, then the accusation isn't inherent anyway. You can say "oh sorry I didn't mean to tunnel" instead of getting defensive and saying "akshully it's not tunneling".
And I think that's a much healthier attitude to hold.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752726#Comment_3752726
Hm, perhaps it’s just the word “rush” that feels out of place? Rush implies urgency, like it’s done hastily. If you have nothing else to do but the gen because the killer is occupied, I don’t feel like it’s “rushing” unless again you have a build/team dedicated to doing nothing but gens. But if someone is in chase and doing well and 3 people are on 3 separate gens and it pops, it feels very disingenuous to say they’re all “rushing” when they’re just doing the objective. Is the solution to just do totems or chests? I mean I don’t think there’s a term for when a killer gets multiple hooks or downs quickly. They’re not “rushing” in my opinion, it’s the only objective they have and they’re doing well. I’ve never been in a game in which the killer was expected or has gone out of their way to just stop hooking because only 1 gen got done and everyone’s on dead hook. That’s not expected of killer players.
It feels like people are saying that if gens get done at which a pace the killer doesn’t like, it is considered gen-rushing, regardless if they have a certain build, items, perks. With this mentality it would mean if gens get completed before x amount of hooks, they’re gen-rushing, even with no items and perkless. I’m sure that isn’t the case, which is why I was hoping people would be able to give a definitive answer.But honestly the replies seem to be “the killer decides if it’s gen rushing or not” lol
Thanks for taking the time to reply though!It's just as disingenuous as the similar situation in regards to tunneling.
You get unhooked, 20 seconds later youre being chased by the killer, then you get hooked again.
Meanwhile the killer perspective is: they hooked you, they ran across the map, they found and chased another survivor, they hooked them, they made their way back to the gens, found no one, then you got unhooked, so they make their way back to the hook, but the survivor who unhooked you is hiding and you're the only one the killer can find.
The killer isn't technically tunneling, but all you've managed to do all game is run and die. From your perspective, you're being tunneled out.
There are two perspectives in play. It's not a case that only one of those perspectives has the right to define what is happening.
I would say that this is circumstantial tunneling, which is far less egregious than intentionally tunneling, but the survivor isn't wrong for feeling they were tunneled.
Exactly the same applies to genrushing.
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@AnxiousGummy said:
What are golden toolboxes? :O
Every (or mostly every?) map has a golden toolbox hidden somewhere on it. Some are easier to find than others. For example, the one on Midwich requires that you stay in the game until the last 20 seconds of EGC, at which point it emerges from a meat pile in the science lab. While the one on Hawkins can only be found by playing Nurse.
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I hope:
Mirror is relatively untouched
Can no longer 'run out of stalk'
Tombstone add ons nerfed
That'll be a successful rework
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I had a similar case. I was in a duo, and the other duo was a TTV and their friend also on call.
Immediately, they start following the killer, emoting, and when one goes down the other points towards us and the killer leaves them slugged. My friend runs off and initiates chase, when the slugged is up they both run to me and block me in on the gen I'm finishing.
On stream: "what do you mean what are we doing? Just being friendly with the killer, sometimes it works"
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Similarly to how 'tunneling' is subjective to the perspective of the 'victim' (you can be walking away, hooking someone else, then reencounter the last survivor who feels they're being tunneled), genrushing is often one of those things that comes down to how fast the killer feels gens have been repaired.
Survivors can be doing nothing wrong, just using the opportunity they have to repair gens, but if you see 3 pop before you've scored a down and then all 5 are repaired within 5 minutes, I can't see how you can disagree that that is a 'rush' scenario.
The other scenario is when an individual prioritises gens above all other considerations to the detriment of the team. Someone is on a hook, someone else is slugged, and the last is being chased, and you still sit on a gen while the hooked goes to 2nd stage or dies. That's a genrush.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752121#Comment_3752121
Why do you feel it needs to be further away to reduce killers pressure at the hook? How's that any different than normal hooking? Normal hooking you're even closer to the hook he's on that the remote hooking. Essentially my point is the only reason you've given as to why the hook needs to be further are the same issues with the normal hooking we have right now, nothing unique to remote hooking.
Why do you feel the need to add any hook travel time? I'm referencing a new killer balanced around that time saving. So for example, if we took Demo and removed his portal mechanic entirely and gave him remote hooking then you wouldn't say that's saving him too much time because now he lost all his time efficiency of map traversal and info. His kit would be made to be balanced around that hook carry time removal.
Firstly. Remote hooking as it is in the event, is a powerful mechanic. You could, balance wise, make a killer whose power IS remote hooking. I don't think that would be unreasonable. However:
- I think a killer whose power is exactly this form of remote hooking would be incredibly lacklustre, because they wouldn't have much else going for them. Remote pallet breaks (chase) and remote hooking (time management) could be strong enough together to be their entire power.
- If you have a killer whose power is this exact mechanic, you then can't use this mechanic for any future events, and they like to build upon these mechanics each anniversary rather than starting from scratch.
I just think the balance needs to shift a bit. A more reserved form of remote hooking could be a part of a new killers powerset. I would much rather it be a part, than the entire gimmick, and to be just a part, it needs to be tuned down a little.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752117#Comment_3752117
Well I will say to keep in mind that the reason PH's ability goes to the opposite side of the map is a very different case than remote hooking. Remote hooking is still a hook and activates all anti tunnel perks, cages do not. So hypothetically if cages activated anti tunnel perks then the cage spawning furthest away from him would no longer be necessary as that's the entire reason they do.
You're right. There are other trade offs that would negate the need for it to be the absolute furthest hook. But it should probably still be either a decent distance away so that the killers efforts to pressure the hook are reduced, or alternatively the opposite, you can only remote hook to hooks within x meters, so that you can't always instantly remote hook but instead need to make some ground/time carrying first.
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@jezebelthenun said:
I feel like remote hook would have been far more balanced if it teleported to the hook farthest from the killer.
I would probably stop playing if there was a killer who could remove hook to the closest hook with every down, ngl. It negates so many things that give survivors a fighting chance.
I actually had a case where I was just outside the TR (32m) and the killer remote hooked right next to me. I instantly unhooked and we both managed to run away and completely lose the killer by the time the realised what had happened.
But yes, any killer power that uses this will have to be comparable to Pyramid Head in some ways, but the benefit would be that hook/unhook/sabo perks on both sides would still work.
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@BurnedTerrormisu said:
My guess is BHVR lowered the tickrate of the servers to compensate for the additional amount of players instead of adding servers.
I mean, if that's true, one of those things is a settings change, while the other is a huge investment and takes time to set up.
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It bugs me that Keys and Maps essentially do the same thing in different ways. They're both info toolsn revealing auras of different objectivesn with a couple of other niche effects like the glass bead or opening the hatch.
It's like having two different types of toolbox, one that just repairs gens and one that just sabotages hooks.
They should be merged into one item.
@Seraphor said:
I've always found it odd that we have two classes of items that (now at least) only exist to track auras. So why couldn't these functions be combined into one item class that's used to track auras, using add-ons to determine what additional objectives are tracked?
I've formed this idea on the basis of three issues I have with or regarding these items:
- Since the Hatch rework, Keys have become virtually useless for opening the Hatch, and still very rarely used for their aura tracking features. That aura tracking is very useful, but it doesn't appear to be good enough to get many players using them.
- Maps are also rarely seen, despite not being changed. Of course this is probably because they were previously used with Keys in a SWF to locate the hatch. As it turns out, their limited aura tracking isn't quite good enough to make up for this.
- This will seem unconnected but... basekit Kindred. It's requested over and over again as a bandaid fix for solo survivors to deal with camping. It's never going to happen, but these items could make up for it. We have medkits in place of healing perks, toolboxes in place of repair perks, and flashlights provide additional ways to stun. So why not have items that replace aura perks? Do these items already do that? Kinda. Do they do it effectively enough? No.
So I've come up with a concept where instead of having Keys or Maps, we instead get Keyrings. We can attach various charms, and indeed keys onto these Keyrings, and they effectively serve as buffed Maps that could be used to open the hatch, if they have a functional key attached to them.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DULKSWT7SJJN/keyrings1.png
Please forgive the scuffed icons.
The main addition here is that simply equipping the Keyrings will provide the survivor with one permanent basekit feature, the ability to see the auras of fellow survivors within a short distance. Effectively replicating Bond but slightly reduced. This is comparable to a Medkit replacing Selfcare.
In addition, Keyrings can still be channelled, using up charges, to activate further aura tracking abilities. As default that includes survivors further away, and generators within that same short distance zone.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/L32R2JSLFYX5/keyrings2.png
For common/uncommon add-ons, we get the general distance/charges upgrades, plus a few additional abilities. Some of these are simply existing Key or Map aura tracking abilities that I've integrated back into Keyrings, however the Eroded Token's new effect is entirely novel.
The Eroded Token would allow you to see the aura of survivors who are within 16 metres of the killer, when using charges. This would serve as a sort of Kindred-lite, as if you start charging the Keyring and see a survivor appear further than 16/24 metres away from you, you can infer that the killer is close to them.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TUYJMLA90CGF/keyrings3.png
Then we get the rare and up add-ons.
The Gold Token is straight up Kindred replication, although obviously limited by the charges of the Keyring.
The Broken Key now sees a new lease of life, it's no longer useless, it can be used to track the Hatch, even while it's open, giving you as the last remaining survivor an edge over the killer in the race to the hatch.
Attaching the Dull Key allows the Keyring to function just as the current Dull Key does, giving the ability to open a closed Hatch. Then the Skeleton Key combines both together, giving you the aura of and ability to open the Hatch.
I think these changes, essentially combining the best parts of Maps and Keys into one, would make an item that may actually be as useful as a Medkit, Toolbox or Flashlight, and provide solo survivors with additional effective options to gathering info, that won't feel like a waste of a slot that using Kindred does for some.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3749993#Comment_3749993
If only that was not linked to the community challenges… Why do we need any restrictions there in the first place? There is no reason to change anything here.
Well previous events have tied the offering to event participation. The old chinese new year events wouldn't give you the bonus for completing event gens/hooks unless you brought a red envelope.