Ryuhi
Ryuhi
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150370#Comment_3150370
If they started working on more ways to encourage killers not to camp/tunnel instead of trying to find new ways to slap their wrists about it
I've experienced far too many games where the killer clearly does not need to camp/tunnel to win, yet opts to do so anyway, to believe incentives are a healthy solution. I've seen this especially since patch 6.1.0.
Amidst the height of survivors disconnecting, I'm being subjected to far too many games in which the killer camps and tunnels one survivor at 4-5 gens, even tho another player has already disconnected. If incentives were enough, we would not be seeing this type of behavior from killers.
This road definitely goes both ways, however.
Boon: Circle of Healing has had a negative ripple effect on the game. It squandered many potentially viable playstyles by offering convenient and quick healing to all survivors at an extremely low cost, with little to no consequence.
BHVR needs to slap survivors' wrists when they play recklessly, instead of just encouraging them to be efficient.
Over the past 2 years, I don't really feel as though the core player base has grown in their understanding of DBD, because BHVR continues to provide these avenues to mitigate reckless decision making and inexperience.
Patrick's quote of "don't you wish you could do all that, and sometimes get out alive?" perfectly embodies this mentality from the devs, as they've shifted their focus towards giving the people what they want rather than what they need.
Your anecdotes are not even a fraction of the userbase. None of ours are. They don't account for different regions, different timezones, different MMRs, you have to take them with the biggest grain of salt. For all the times you never see it, there are streamers who will actively call out every single situation where their hand gets forced. Its always important to assume that our individual experiences are only a piece of the puzzle.
The incentives simply are never enough, and they keep getting diminished. Even BBQ/WGLF losing their aura reading hurt going for new survivors rather than camping, because many killers were so focused on taking it for the grind that "they already had it, might as well use its other effect." Now the reason people take it got removed, so the secondary effect's influence is gone. If they removed some of its thousand counterplays we might actually see it again, but the AA nerf due to nurse is more proof that they flat out do not care about incentivizing that type of direction when it will cause survivors to complain more. (for the record, I think the nurse synergy absolutely needed to be addressed, but the lazy way they handled it ruined an incentive opportunity. Exact repeat of the Thana situation.)
I absolutely agree that the same should be applied to survivors as well, more incentives for less efficient play. It kinda feels like thats the direction they went with how absolutely awful some of the challenges in the rifts are, basically forcing you to sandbag yourself for some extra BP and progress. If that was actually their reasoning, its the right idea but terrible execution.
For a while now I've been strongly of the stance that the efficiency cap dilemma is the biggest cause of a lot of these problems, and addressing it would fix things for both sides in a lot of other ways. Survivors simply start too strong and lose too much power with each interaction, turning survivor early game into "maximizing as much damage as possible" and killer side "maximum damage control, while attempting to start progress." Then the late game for survivor becomes "we dont have enough people, i cant do all these things at once" and for killer it becomes "I have plenty of time for these longer chases."
The unfortunate thing is that survivors will complain that the killer is stronger early, while ignoring the fact that they stay stronger and things get less hopeless as the killer gains momentum. Likewise, killers will complain that they have to work harder continuously through the match rather than work hard at the start and then relax the rest of the way. Nobody will ever be happy as long as they put their perspective above healthy balance.
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@prion11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3148661#Comment_3148661
You have just the same ability as OP to determine whether you are in "high level play" or "the killer is bad and using a crutch". which is zero. lmao
I feel like too few people are willing to acknowledge this. Without access to our own MMRs, we will never know for sure what MMR we are at in any given match. The only way to know anything is to base it off of assumptions on people's play, or report bias "I'm super good at the game, so i must be top MMR" If nobody is ever willing (or able) to be accurate about their own skill level, they will never have anything to measure it against with this system. Its purposely ambiguous to prevent bad players from being directly told that they are bad, but also gives people room to misconstrue their current standing. Its a bad combination when your community is so blatantly egocentric.
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@VideoGameMage said:
Correction "Killers aren't allowed smart or interesting builds because Nurse is in the game".
Thats like saying "survivors aren't allowed x because coordinated SWFs are in the game." The game is directed by chaos, not balance.
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@kaoraku said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149007#Comment_3149007
Why you just again declare it free kills? How could it be a free kill, when you have to DO things to kill a survivor? While DS still just push the space in good time.
Anti tunnel perks is not for keeping alive the survivor, it is to prevent kill them way too fast. In endgame the killer cannot "tunnel" cause at that point there is nothing else to do, but down them and hook them.
And meanwhile yeah, noed should be basekit it would be the worst option. Because survivors can prevent it from activating with removing all the totems. But they rarely do it. But if it would be basekit, survivors would know they HAVE TO remove all totems. So it would be basekit, but in most matches it wouldn't activate at all.
TBH if Noed was basekit, that would lead to even more problems, like hurting boons while buffing pentimento. As much as I think CoH should be nerfed, attacking boons directly turns the other ones from "not very strong" to "gutter trash." Balancing should never really be about removing healthy elements to either side, just fixing unhealthy ones.
Now, if certain situations started having more risks associated to them....
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150291#Comment_3150291
My differening perspective and/or confusion stems from reading your woes about basement as symptoms of your woes over other game mechanics, namely Circle of Healing.
Putting a survivor in the basement is not always the best decision and, if this game is to have any amount of variable strategy, it should not always be the best decision. The value you get out of basement comes down to how you play around it--not whether or not you managed to hook someone there--and that is how it should remain.
Basement is Maslow's Hammer--"if the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail."
If you're not a killer who can adequately pressure basement, without sacrificing map pressure elsewhere, don't expect it to get the job done.
Well yeah, they're kinda related. CoH had more impact on playstyles than even DS, and it continues to do so since they only do numbers adjustments instead of adjusting how far its impact actually reaches. I understand that the basement is not always the best decision, but I also understand that this change has diluted a major part of its strength. And you're right, its value comes from how you play around it, to which i say "this will have the opposite effect of discouraging camping, because it made that the only way to guarantee value from your investment."
I don't argue for wanting my side to have an advantage, hell i barely play killer. I just acknowledge that pidgeonholing killer strategies doesn't "fix" problems like this, it only makes people double down and decreases the value of matches for everyone. If they started working on more ways to encourage killers not to camp/tunnel instead of trying to find new ways to slap their wrists about it, we might have had a healthy game start forming a long time ago.
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@GeneralV said:
Please, stop trying to portray the killers as "poor innocent victims of Survivor-sided devs".
Killer has been winnable for a VERY long time, regardless of how hard this pill is to swallow.
@DemonDaddy said:
The devs feel the need to shelter the really bad survivors that dont react to the info icons popping up on screen.
So the first one is true, but so is the second. Its not that the devs are survivor sided so much as they bend over backwards to appease poor survivor play. Many survivors don't get better bcause they don't need to get better, they still win an adequate number of games just by being carried by various safety nets, second chances, and the fact that they have 3 other players who very well can be carrying them (yes, this even applies to solos.) They continue rewarding bad play while not incentivizing smart play, so the only ones who improve are the ones who actively try to.
Killer is trial by fire in every sense of the word. You very well can (and often do) suffer a lot of punishment in your attempt to improve, with much less to fall back on. There still isn't even an option to practice killer powers and or work out addons without having at least another person willing to be your training dummy to even access the practice mode (which will eventually be rectified, thankfully.)
Here's where the discordance happens: As killers suffer through it and actually improve, games become much more reasonable for them. They rely less on going against survivors worse than they are, and instead start working out more advanced strategies and juggling more mechanics simultaneously. Thats part of why veteran killer players don't really see the struggle of most inexperienced ones, the game might have been completely different when they were in those same shoes. Likewise, as survivors improve they see how many other survivors get absolutely carried and have not developed the skills or strategies that other experienced players often do. They see the ragequits on first hook, DCs when a nurse screeches, and every other form of ruining the game for their team. Its especially why they hate solo queue, because there isn't much reason to actually improve as you are sharing agency and the game doesn't want you to have more.
So basically, the devs need to be smarter about their changes. Stuff like the changes to wesker's power was a great example, it helped both sides compared to how it was before. It gave both the killer and the survivor more individual agency on whether the attack connects or not by removing issues that affected survivors ("but i dodged that how did it hit!") and killer ("What the hell did i brush up against that stopped me mid lunge?")
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@Aurelle said:
Exactly the point that I keep trying to make. The double standards are absolutely insane. Survivors can't have DS or OTR at Endgame, But killers can have perks like NOED and Rancor. One side shouldn't get free wins, killers and survivors should be held to equal standards.
I mean its an asymetrical game, so the 1 should occasionally hold power over individuals of the 4. They have considerably less safety nets in numbers alone, before even getting into assuming things like pairity between efficiency potential of their opposing objectives. Noed and Rancor are iconically good examples because Noed can be disabled before it even activates (just like second chance perks deactivating in endgame) and was even nerfed to minimize its lasting impact by telling survivors where it is, while Rancor gives you an entire game's worth of notification its going to be an issue in endgame so you can prepare accordingly.
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Survivor, 7-9.
Killer, maybe 3?
With survivor I feel like i understand a lot more of the game than i'm mechanically skilled with, so i tend to be as strategic and efficient as i can be, but i get mindgamed fairly often. I take each opportunity to improve on that, so i feel like its a matter of just continually improving with more experience. I rarely feel hardstuck and take the losses with the wins 95% of the time, but I acknowledge when/where there's room for improvement.
Killer has a lot of accessibility issues for me, so I rarely bother anymore. I think i understand most of it well, but my mechanical application of a lot of that info isn't anywhere near as good due to less practice. I don't want to put it lower or higher because I understand why i don't perform better, but accessibility aside i need more practice mechanically as well.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150212#Comment_3150212
I still don't follow you.
If you're going to proxy camp basement, than COH is irrelevant to you--you're inevitably going to hit a survivor on their way into basement, therefore enabling you to down them on their way out of basement.
If you don't managed to catch the rescuer on their way to basement, you still have the luxury of a free hit on their way out of basement--a luxury you wouldn't have been given had you hooked the survivor at say... a long wall jungle gym.
If you're not going to proxy camp basement, you still receive all the benefits I previously mentioned, as survivors should tread lightly into basement under the assumption you will return before they can make it back to the top of the steps.
If all 3 survivors are at full health when you hook someone in the basement, I would go so far as to say that you didn't have much pressure to begin with, thus you haven't earned the pressure that basement can give you. You're far better off hooking in basement only if it is the closest hook, as a hook central to the remaining generators is far more likely to award you pressure in the mid-to-late game.
In summary, basement provides you pressure not because it exists, but because you've leveraged the advantages it has to offer.
I cant tell if you're not seeing my points due to perspective or confusion, but i don't mind trying to explain it better if you're honestly trying to follow.
1) Exactly. It means that it encourages facecamping the hook, because even proxy camping you might not see them in time before they get down the stairs. The only way to guarantee that preemptive hit is to already be in position for it. By proxy camping you are gambling that you will let someone slip past between checks. Back when healing was less accessable, basement plays took a lot more coordination and invoked a much bigger efficiency hit, now a lot of that gets mitigated both directly (healing for basement save) and indirectly (people less likely to stay injured in general, with less efficiency cost vs requiring healing from a teammate.)
2) You're saying the basement only giving you one hit is worth it because of the pressure of hooks positioned right next to strong loops? That doesn't even offset the time taken walking them to the basement in the firstplace (unless they got downed on top of it or something.) You need to consider all of the factors of the mechanic, as even just putting them down there and walking back out can cost a quarter of a gen (up to 3 individual gens) during that time. And as a bonus, stray hits are once again diluted in value due to the existence of CoH, there's a reason you rarely see hit and run playstyles anymore.
3) You get zero benefits if you are in a chase with the obsession elsewhere on the map, survivors have any aura reading perks for the situation (like empathy and kindred, part of why i promote them so much) or you have any mechanics that betray your position (like clown bottles or other global sounds) so it can be very easy to know when the killer is not fortifying their basement position. Again, it funnels back to the only way to guarantee value is to camp harder.
4) Again, CoH. Each hook stage gives plenty of time for either faster multi-survivor heals, or even 3 individual CoH self cares. And since they can then rush the basement if all 3 are healthy and create a bodyblocking clusterfuck, it stops being a positon of strength on the killer's side while they were expected to be in multiple places at once to try to prevent the situation.
5) this is mostly accurate. My issue is that 10 second bt kinda removes that leverage in all but the most extreme cases, which means you're going to see more facecamping, not less.
Its a running trend with these types of changes, every alternative that can promote more healthy killer playstyles gets nerfed instantly due to one or two killers getting too much synergy from them, so they salt the earth instead of applying sensible caps to said scenarios. The AA nerf because nurse was a monster with it is a great example in this very patch, same with the recent thana giganerf. The complaints about "how bad it could get" were absolutely valid, but both the hypocracy of the situation as well as scrapping tools entirely with hamfisted nerfs means that killers will just keep adapting to more and more "oppressive and unfun" strategies to compensate. Because their alternatives become less and less unless they flat out want to throw the game.
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@malloymk said:
I have never been a big DS user, because I hate the skill check and you usually still get tunneled anyway. I think it's absolute dog doodoo that this perk shuts off at end game. If you save a one time use perk until end game you should be able to use it. Even if you do the BM at the gate DS BS. It's a perk you equipped, you should be able to use it. Period.
You must not like the concept of hex totems then. Because guaranteeing value from a perk just because you picked it has been an unrealistic expectation in DBD for ages now.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150176#Comment_3150176
You just said it yourself--smart people go for basement saves healthy.
If no one is healthy, one or two survivors now need to heal instead of repairing generators, so that they can go for the save. If only one survivor is healthy, they now need to be the designated savior, even if it is incredibly time inefficient for them to do so. Or.... they can risk going for the save while injured, and hand you a free trade--possibly 2 hooks in the basement.
How do you not see what kind of pressure this builds?!?!
Because if nobody is injured none of that applies? If CoH is somewhere else on the map away from the basement, how are you supposed to snuff it out while also holding that position? People have been saying for ages that CoH's secondary impact on the game is far bigger than its primary one, simply because it breaks the rule of survivors needing to waste each other's time with healing while also not needing to waste their own perk slots as long as a single person brought it. Its why balance decisions always need a broader scope to see the secondary consequences of changes, and not just "thing helps me, it gud." like the majority of balance considerations on here.
You could just as easily argue that the amount of time it took them to reach the basement to make the hook cost them more gens than they could have prevented just using a normal nearby hook. You're letting specific scenarios outweigh potential variations, when the only specific scenario the opposite requires is "don't go for the unhook injured" and "nvm you dont even need to bodyblock for them anymore, just yeet yourself away with the on hit burst so they can't trade."
The only way to mitigate that is to get the first hit before the unhook, to make sure you can get the second before they escape. And guess how you make sure you can get both of those hits as someone without an instadown?
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150133#Comment_3150133
Well dbd is pretty unplayable with old consoles so at least they have something to their advantage. I do like the dark personally if im not playing killer.
and PC players with machines older than the game's release get the best of both worlds, with both poor performance due to optimization issues and abyss-o-vision at the same time. The true winners of this map.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150141#Comment_3150141
As someone else said it may be brighter for me simply because I'm on old console so it's their way to help with the poor optimization of the game. I do find that hard to believe though when playing v the Dredge the darkness is like your pics so why bother brightening a map for performance issues while having a killer that goes that dark anyway?
oh i was being facetious. Its a lighting issue that older consoles are literally too weak to have happen, most likely having to do with dynamic vs map based lighting. Either its on purpose and they want the lighting to be unplayable on all platforms and it didnt work on old consoles for performance limitations, or its wrong on both and the idea is to have it be darker than the rest of the map, but not as dark as the depths of a feng player's soul.
Either way, its just another in the long list of dynamic adjustment bugs that will probably never be addressed, just like all of the sound ones over the years.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150148#Comment_3150148
I don't understand your argument.
Why do you refuse to down the person who rescued the survivor from basement?
The whole point of these changes is to let survivors play the game--not trap them in an endless loop of hook -> unhook -> downed -> repeat
It feels as if you are refusing to acknowledge the multiple benefits that basement has to offer
Because smart people go for basement saves healthy, thus meaning they can take two hits if you don't have an instadown? autoaim making you hit the person on the hook instead of the unhooker? "just hit them twice lul" only applies if you were facecamping, which certainly doesn't dissuade people from using strategies like that. Basement is supposed to be so that the killer has an elevated chance of building or reseting their pressure that gets lost from the act of the unhook: Be it through the chokepoints in the escape path, the extended distance required to reach the hook, everything is supposed to be in the killers favor except the god pallet that is almost always present nearby (I think some maps like mothers dwelling don't have a guaranteed safe pallet right next to the stairs, but i could be wrong.)
Its saying "the killer should reasonably be able to maintain their presence, unless they either abandon the position entirely, or the survivors use a single resource" It loses a lot of that power when you can't even reasonably guarantee a hook trade in the most killer-sided position on the map, especially when its one that they have to both waste time carrying survivors there, but also can't pressure any aspects of the map without risking abandoning the basement. Ironically in a way DS is healthier for the situation because at least slugging is an option, but that stopped even being an option once again.
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@Audiophile said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149931#Comment_3149931
No dude. You just deliberately misinterpret my words and I'm tired of having to clarify. Where did I say I want biased data? That's you. All you. I have no problem with facts. I want facts. I understand the scientific method. Unbiased, peer reviewed. objective results. Maybe you don't understand since you don't understand science or data analysis. BHVR takes all the raw data of the games and then breaks it out in ways that make sense. Fairly. You can look at data matched by MMR or by Peak vs non-peak hours, etc. I think they should be able to account for DC's and suicides by creating a field in the data that counts the time on the hook. If it was very short (flag it as a probable suicide). Then you could look at the data with that flag or not. There are plenty of ways to look at data. I'm not interested in pushing a false point. I'm looking for the facts.
For all your talk of facts, you kinda ignored the post telling you that the data you are requesting would not be factually accurate. Again, BHVR does not collect data properly because they knowing ignore variables that have a direct impact on their info's end result. its part of why they don't release it very often, because some people will use incomplete data to try to push false narratives, others will see its incomplete data and thus irrelavent, and the rest will just be like "oh cool behind the scenes numbers" and go about their day.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149937#Comment_3149937
Don't you think it is a little disingenuous to say they "escape basement for free?"
The survivor made the err of going down close enough for the killer to carry them to basement. The entire team pays for that err by either hook-trading to save them, or by sacrificing multiple health states and time on objective to save them.
The killer can't instantly down the survivor who was just on hook in basement, but what is so wrong with that? You think that player wants to spend the rest of their game in basement?
Basement has tremendous snowball potential, but it should not be a guaranteed death sentence.
I don't think its disingenuous at all when the duration of your immunity lasts long enough to reach a defensible position? Its not always "the entire team" and that goes into what i was talking about earlier regarding bodyblocks. Im saying that there is factually enough time for a survivor to run in a straight line and reach the window or pallet with the killer being able to do nothing about it unless they mess up their routing (succeeding in their own bodyblock, while also preventing the unhooking survivor from bodyblocking their bodyblock with bodyblockception)
With 5 seconds you fell just short when making a direct approach angle, requiring some other tactic (bodyblock from the unhooker, perks like dead hard, OTR, anything) to physically have enough time to guarantee escaping the room. Now that guarantee is base, and it takes either refusing to leave in time (using the BT offensively) or letting the killer (or technically unhooker, if they
accidentallysandbag you) get in your way long enough to eat up 4 seconds of its duration. Oh and don't forget, the unhooked survivor is hasted in addition to the endurance, so they get even more distance on top.remember, this is the basement. its supposed to be arguably the hardest area of any map to escape from and be able to reset chase status. The 10 second duration is just going to turn every basement save into a benny hill skit until someone screws up, with the outcome weighted in favor of escaping rather than trapping. Why even have basements anymore?
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150096#Comment_3150096
It's dark for me but im on xbox series.
my understanding is that its dark on current gen and PC, but bright on previous gen consoles.
Guess its bhvr's attempt at throwing them a bone in place of actual optimization?
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Its not a bug, its a feature~
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149900#Comment_3149900
You're talking about OTR and DS, two perks I have no issue with being disabled due to their lack of real endgame counterplay, but when I say "every tool" I mean everything, including the new basekit post-unhook Endurance. And yes, I have seen people advocating for that.
For the most part i agree with keeping stuff like basekit BT.... if they didn't extend the duration.
10 seconds gives you enough time to escape the basement for free, without even needing bodyblocks. Then you get the other survivors blocking the doorways and boom, guaranteed lose/lose for the killer. At 5 seconds this wasn't an issue, and required at least some bodyblocking to reach the window or pallet... but thats out the window now.
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@Audiophile said:
Honestly, I really blame BHVR for not being transparent and providing the community with stats and data. I firmly believe that when you look at the data fairly, nurse has the highest win rates in the game and would go beyond what is considered balanced. But I can't prove it and no one else here can prove their points either. We all have to argue our own subjective experience and things we've seen so nothing will get resolved. Bad on you BHVR.
They count hook suicides as kills, they don't throw them out like they do DCs. If the majority of survivors just give up vs her, in what universe would her kill rate not be inflated?
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The issue lies in the ever shifting definition of "counterplay." Some people use it to mean that they have a significant chance for their actions to improve their outcome which would otherwise be decided for them by their opponent. Others use it to describe a thing they do to guarantee their actions to improve their outcome which would otherwise be decided for them by their opponent. The first definition is the logically consistent one, its removing a lose/lose situation and creating a win alternative instead, while the latter wants to turn a lose/lose into a lose/lose for the opposite side. This is the biggest issue with "free" anything in this game: People want to pull an uno reversal card the second they get outplayed, rather than give themselves a chance to outplay the outplay. It always comes back to people bemoaning the difficulties of their own position, while trying to stack the odds away from their opposition.
Situations like second chances in EGC CAN ABSOLUTELY create lose/lose, entirely uncounterable situations for either side, much like they can for the rest of the game. The difference is that the game has mostly wrapped up at this point, survivors are supposed to be deciding whether to leave or go for that last save as a matter of greed, not guarantee. Its supposed to be risky, and the EGC timer itself puts more onus on each action.... Therefore having the ability for survivors to just nullify all of the situation's difficulty with perk choices is kinda silly. Not everyone does, and some of them try and fail, but when executed correctly there simply is nothing most killers can do, it returns once again to the only way the killer can win the situation is if the survivor makes a mistake.
One could argue "the hooked survivor can't escape unless the killer makes a mistake" but thats how things work now since most of those perks are disabled in endgame. The killer has agency to secure a kill while still having a pretty decent amount of room for human error to make the save. But most importantly it stays consistent with enforcing how risky end game actions are supposed to be. Its also enforcing how greedy it is, if they already have the escape but refuse to take it in search of more points/emblems/whatever reason.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3147896#Comment_3147896
Deliverance still cares about it as well as challenges.
You still get the free BT with deliverance, and challenges aren't exactly the pinnacle of good design. Most of them pretty much force you to sandbag yourself at least once to make sure you get them in the first place.
My point was that the event was introduced specifically because of old WGLF, to prevent people from hookfarming unsafe unhooks in the killer's face. Some survivors still to this day think doing so is a good idea, and stuff like buffing the free basekit BT even further is rewarding that mindset instead of encouraging smarter play.
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@JHondo said:
I like how so many players were just doom and gloom about the 6.1.0 update and BHVR kept saying "we're keeping a close eye on the changes" yet players still complained constantly like it's the end of the world. But now BHVR is actually doing what they said they'd do, kept an eye on updates and adjusting as needed.
When some bugs have been around for longer than most of the player base, people tend to lose faith in faith based reassurances. At least now that everyone thinks IW is dead we won't have to worry about the sound bug from it as often ;)
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Now that WGLF doesnt give stacks anymore on top of the BT changes, the safe unhook event is kinda pointless tbh. People need to actively try in order for it to not be granted, when the entire point was to persuade survivors to go for safer unhooks and not brute force ones right in the killer's face.
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Its not the change I would have done, but its a QoL improvement thats not a shell game for once. Credit where credit is due, it's very helpful and much needed.
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@Elcopollo said:
I actually like pretty much all the changes. The only thing is that BHVR should stop "fixing" symptoms and finally fix the problem. I don't like the fact that perks are being nerfed for everyone just because one Starstruck Nurse exists. I don't understand what is so hard about making successful Blink Hits an M2 Attack, just like Blight's Lethal Rush. It's quite a simple change, which still keeps Nurse a powerful killer worthy of being #1 on S-tier, while simply removing the craziness of easy yet huge pressure Nurse can quickly gain from using Exposed perks.
This person gets it. The devs need more synergy hardcaps and other similar considerations rather than just nerfing things to the ground because they don't know how to fix X person or situation making it overpowered. A lot of the changes in this were actually in the right direction, but a lot of them are too focused on specific issues rather than what causes them. Its also funny how the bounding adjustment regarding the width of his hitbox affected both sides, but it needed to be listed twice to make sure both survivors and killers realize its a positive change for each of them :)
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
There's not a single change I disagree with, just 1 I'm iffy about.
Base-kit Endurance shouldn't be 10 seconds if you get unhooked from the basement
You don't understand, survivors need to be able to get a free escape from an area designed specifically to prevent free escapes and make rescues risky as its entire point of existing, the previous effect wasn't enough to get to the window or pallet for free without any bodyblocking or other risky manuvering as punishment for getting put into such a place! everyone knows the killer shack only exists to be a free godloop on every map!
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@Audiophile said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3146645#Comment_3146645
Lord… I hope you will understand that your request is just ridiculous and I will not be providing videos. What makes the request even sillier is that I already said that a selection of videos isn’t proof. Let’s see data on nurse win rates at various levels.
Oh, you mean the kill rates that BHVR admitted they are unable to actually aggregate correctly? That they are unable to keep contaminated from things like hook suicides? in regards to nurse, who nobody ever ever ever gives up against?
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@Onyx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145354#Comment_3145354
"it has to be fair and fun for both sides" followed by "this is why I want the hug tech to stay" means you don't understand what is fun and fair. Only killer mains would think people like the hug tech or think it's fair.
Misdirecting blight players who use hug tech is extremely fun, dunno what you're talking about. Watching them sit there bouncing into something obviously setting it up, then seeing them fly off around the corner they think you're at and swinging at thin air is always good for a laugh. Granted if you see him do it and then just say "guess i'll die now" maybe you could find more fun in actually trying to counterplay the situation? Always remember its a person on the other side, so they can be misled/mindgamed.
TBH hug tech is the only way he can use his power at a lot of loops, otherwise he can only really get people in the open between em. Thats the real reason people want it gone, they hate when killers have agency around pallets.
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Wouldn't the healthier alternative be making busted addons not-busted, like was the trend they were going on? Hell, a lot of them are pretty undertuned for their rarity (both color and availability wise).
Addons don't match their rarity uniformly like that, either due to how they work or what they have to give up due to double edged balancing. There's absolutely no direction to any of it.
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@Wesu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3143523#Comment_3143523
No one's crying about camping here, but the DBD community has generally accepted that camping at 5 gens is too rewarding for the effort required. The point is that the solution that the devs have come up with to combat this is sloppy and ineffectual. Do we really need to mandate that survivors run a perk to fix bad game design? That's not fun for anyone.
You're right about the reward being high, but not really accounting for the fact that it needs to be. Efficiency caps should be addressed on both sides to give the most variety to playstyles, so survivors need to be weaker at the start, while losing less strength while players are down or out. Ironically the fix for killers for this is also tied to perks like lethal pursuer, corrupt, and now even ruin.
Its something that both sides absolutely need addressed to reduce the camp/tunnel/slug life, and they both need their fixes at the same time or it'll make things even worse.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3142670#Comment_3142670
McClean who was a long time senior dev who left the company last year also still streams DbD games on Twitch.
As far as the devs facing off against some Fog Whisperers, it would be fun but honestly I don’t expect the devs to be as good as professional full time DbD streamers. There’s a difference between your job being coding and designing maps and art content and looking for bugs and such and literally playing the game four to eight hours per day. If I had to take a stab I’d guess the people who do a lot of Q&A testing might be the best actual players in the company since they actually probably spend a larger chunk of their time literally playing the game, but even then I bet a lot of that time is spent testing versus simply playing normal matches.
And I don’t think this is at all unusual for game developers. Just because you work building cars for a living doesn’t mean you can beat professional drivers in a race.
Whether they win or lose isnt supposed to be the point, its an extremely important aspect of quality testing to have the perspective of the end user. Its supposed to be experiencing firsthand how much decisions will affect the end user's enjoyment of your product, and what options (if any) they might have to offset it. The best QA testers in the world can't account for the skill ceiling in a competitive game, and its why so many of them have balance patches in the first place. There will always be someone who understands your game more than you, and the most important part is being willing to understand and learn from that.
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@Maverick_74F said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3143429#Comment_3143429
Why is old freddy preferred? He was arguably the worst killer in the history of dbd (assuming your talking about the pull into dream world freddy)
You could argue it wouldnt have taken much for old-old (manually putting people to sleep) freddy to be better than any of his other iterations. Imagine if all they did was make the falling asleep period slightly longer, but it made the survivor exposed for the first 20 seconds they are asleep or something like that. Would make survivors respect the hell out of the falling asleep mechanic, while only rewarding freddy if he is committing to the survivor he is putting to sleep. It would certainly need a pass over his addons and other mechanics to go with it, buts its an example of an idea on how they don't need to continuously reinvent the wheel with these often questionable reworks.
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why not just.... undo most of his nerfs and let him be good again?
Its like the Billy rework. They just needed to tone down synergy with two specific addons, instead they ruined all of his QoL and gutted him. To address that one issue apparently.
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I thought this was going to be able how the hook related bubbles can get in the way of a lot of other visual information, especially auras. That would have actually been a decent take.
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@RaSavage42 said:
It is one thing to say (in general) that Survivors are frustrated when it's Killers as well... so players are frustrated would've been a better title (then explain what you mean)
MM is screwy to say the least, Maps are just as bad (for both sides), Perks are what they are, playstyles are what they are
I think OP is addressing a very specific point, that many survivors would rather hope they get carried than carry themselves.
That doesn't really apply to killers, since they have no teammates. You could argue about the balance of x or y for either side until your face turns blue, but the fact of the matter is that a team of 4 always has more skill safety nets than a team of 1. Unfortuantely the amount of ego and bm in this game only further encourages that mindset as well.
Many survivors aren't complaining that they want to be better, they're complaining they don't consistently get carried often enough, so the times it doesn't happen, they feel it must have been impossible for them to have done better. Its a personal responsibility perspective more than anything, doing your best is not the final outcome, and is the thing people should always be focusing on more than winning or losing. Doing so has the consequence that you'll end up winning more than losing because thats how self-improvement works.
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Nothing about most game balance complaints is actually about game health. its always about "getting mine" to most people.
It takes a lot more effort and insight to consider why each role runs into the issues they do, and the psychology behind why they adapt the way they do. Its much less common to see that kind of perspective instead of just "x thing is always a problem for me specifically, it needs to go!"
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@Lynxx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3143475#Comment_3143475
Survivors need this emote.
lets go a step further! the survivor should just see this video while the hook timer is paused :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxGRhd_iWuE -
@UntilValhalla13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3143181#Comment_3143181
To be fair, Otz IS a very good trapper.
TBH I think that might be part of why he put him at the very bottom.
Something many people do (I've found myself doing this as well in other games) is underrate their mains, because they experience the absolute suite of every single negative that character can get due to such a large sample size. I have no doubt that he has seen far more horrendous situations as trapper than most have, which influences his decision on how bad things can get. Its a completely normal and understandable bias to have.
I'm not going to argue that trapper should be S tier or anything stupid like that, but thats the kind of grain of salt thats always required with these types of perspectives. Its not supposed to be taking his word as law, more that he has gazed into the abyss, and the only thing he found looking back at him, was trapper.
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can't get value from it in solo if most solos just want to suicide on hook and go next anyway :)
Then again maybe thats the point, to give solos a tool to prevent their allies from being able to use sanctioned ragequit methods.
maybe thats the real issue it was meant to address
whoa.
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@Hes1hp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3143496#Comment_3143496
Like bubba facecamping with dead lock?
I mean yeah, was this supposed to be some kind of gotcha comment? I honestly don't understand some whataboutism quips.
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@Hes1hp said:
Pls Q up as survivor so I can get fasted Killer lobbys. K thx
Thats not how this works. Thats not how any of this works.
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But i don't want viable, i want a 100% foolproof option with absolutely zero counterplay from the other side because that doesn't involve learning from my mistakes
(</s> because i honestly feel like people will argue with this)
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If you're just starting, whatever the current meta is. By the time you finish unlocking it, half will be gutted and replaced, so if you're grinding more casually you'll never catch up anyway :)
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@fulltonon said:
Oh no another "remove hatch" thread.
I don't think anyone would mind if you actually needed to earn it. As it is hatch can spawn literally under your feet (which seems to be happening more often lately?) and you can yeet out the moment the 3rd one dies. As a bonus you get rewarded for not trying to keep the game progressing, which is why it always get used as an excuse to locker jockey and pray your teammate gets killed before you do.
It needs something. Make the hatch spawn closed and one of the chests in the map magically has a key in it. Make it so that you need at least x pip progress in order for the hatch to spawn open, give it anything.
Its what we were apparently waiting all that time for when they took so long to rework keys vs moris, and all we got was a lazy number adjustment. It would even make sense thematically, since the third survivor not giving up is supposed to be more pleasing to the entity than the one who gives up and cowers begging to be saved by powers they do not control.
It needs to be re-evaluated again. and in a proper manner, not just "we couldn't think of anything, so here's a solution to a single part of the issue"
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3142267#Comment_3142267
If he slug you or you drag time at the exit gate, waiting to flash him, its pretty much the same.
Yep. Whole lotta people being left blind from the eye for an eye pettiness in this community unfortunately.
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As others have said, you can only make reads and try to mislead your opponent at interactions where they are required to make reads as well. Unfortunately its not terribly difficult to prevent those situations in the first place in many cases, so you end up with obligatory time wastes in between each possible attempt at gaining pressure (or even just getting hits sometimes)
Its another one of those situations where the map design often does not allow for it. In a perfect DBD, no killer would have strong anti-loop but more importantly every single loop would be designed in a way that it would not be necessary. Every interaction between the killer and survivor in chase is supposed to be a battle of wits, but there are far too many "you're safe, take a breather" loops in the game for M1's to stay viable. You have to constantly reassess your priorities every single time a window is vaulted or a pallet dropped on whether you're accumulating more timewaste than you are able to secure pressure.
Its part of why i absolutely hate when survivors complain about niche situations where they are required to make reads, when people who play both know that most killers (and especially m1 ones) are having to make constant reads the entire match. Its the only way they can hope to keep up vs even moderately efficient survivors. unless they tunnel one out and shift the efficiency scale, of course.
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Depips are a system of stalling progress to artificially inflate their climb due to (rank/grades/whatever they want to rebrand them as) having no actual impact on anything other than how much BP you get as a reward at reset each month.
Now look at the prestige rework and the blatant issues in their new progression model and ask yourself why they would suddenly be nice to the end user about pips?
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@Man_of_triangles said:
Wraiths are way too busy camping the first hook all game to do something like this. Wish this killer would be removed.
"He lost literally every other playstyle since they all stopped being viable and he got nothing in return, better take the last lowest common denominator he has left"
He's a default killer with absolutely nothing going for him anymore, is this take specifically because he doesn't have a shimmer if he stays still or something?
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my only problem with the hook death animation is how loud and obnoxious it is, same as half the moris in the game. I just alt tab out and wait for them to finish, its not like there's gameplay waiting for me afterwards, i'm out of the game anyway.
Survivors refusing to leave unless they get slapped out takes a lot longer to just afk out of, and i'll usually just make an appearence, see it, then go back to the basement and similarly alt tab out. If they want to drag things out tbagging at nothing all they're doing is actively wasting everyone's time, including their own. I often get the feeling that the ones who drag it out as long as possible must rarely get the opportunity to actually be vertical in exit gates, so their ego demands they binge.