Rulebreaker
Rulebreaker
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We're beginning to hope they do buff him just to see the outcry
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651802#Comment_3651802
No, i dont think either one is better. But i think 228 seconds of potential slowdown (GE without DMS) is better then 90 seconds (PR)
Fair and you do make a good argument its better than Pain res, but we still do not see Grim Embrace as OP by itself. Overall the practical time wasted less than what it seems. The potential time is altered by the fact that after those 12 seconds (or 40 in last case) they hop right back on the gen with all the progress saved, even if chased away someone else can easily swoop in, pop it, and run off. It doesn't affect survivors already looking for a gen and could invertedly help them (ex: they find a blocked gen with lots of progress already on it while pain res might have crippled said gen). And again it allows survivors to focus on other things like healing making future chases harder (though does kinda help solo Q). Its Its a good combo piece, doubt anyone will deny that, but alone its only good and not OP.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651719#Comment_3651719
I was just using this as an example.
The bottom line is. If a generator is loosing 25% of progress or cant be repaired for the equal duration makes it more or less the same. Re-repairing or waiting out the block is no difference in the sense of progression.
What we're believing is that you believe that the blocked gens are better than the regression and that is the reason you think Grim Embrace is overpowered. We'd argue that the regression is better, but if we keep at it we'd both deviate from the topic by arguing which is better.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651703#Comment_3651703
Well, the effect is still more or less the same. The gen with PR will loose 25% and wont be poped instantly. With GE, it is on a single target a little bit less, but the effect stays the same. It will be repaired later. I think it is only psychological.
The kicker is, if we dont care if a gen gets completed or not, it will get repaired shortly after GE / PR. If we care to defend that generator, we can make our way towards the gen and kick it with pop or just regulary and hunt survivors in that area.
We're not talking about combining it with pop though, this is wholly (however you spell that word) about grim embrace alone (while technically comparing it to pain res or other regression/stall alone). With regression perks its more likely that gen gets finished alot later though rather than with blocking (depending on the regression), especially when that blocking is 12 seconds. The 40 seconds would be better but it requires you to down and hook everyone.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651549#Comment_3651549
Theres a flaw with the comparison as pain res regresses the generator, meaning the work needs to be re-done on that gen. Grim embrace blocks gens, they will not progress but also won't regress meaning if the survivor waits out the timer, which is practical enough baring the 4th proc, they can hop back on their gen and possibly pop it assuming the killer doesn't come. In addition the killer cant practically control grim embrace unlike pain res [you can usually choose to save a pain res token by picking a non scurge hook, not a grim embrace charge unless you slug or cage them].
Please explain, whats the difference between no progress gain and progress loss? Besides maybe the psychological factor.
In our simple mind no progress gain (blocked) means a gen thats near complete will most likely be completed as soon as whatever is blocking it finishes while the progress lost (regressed) will actually need to be re-done and has a higher chance of not being finished. Blocking gens is like a dam effect. Lets say a gens at 95 percent and close by the killer. If blocked and the killer chases the survivors off, that gens gona still be at 95 meaning someone can easily swoop in and pop. If regressed then the gen will be at whatever hit it while you chase them off meaning more time bought. Depending on the situation one could be better than the other but this is how we see it.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651296#Comment_3651296
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651310#Comment_3651310
You are very lucky then (or me being unlucky?). This combo is more or less in half of my games.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651330#Comment_3651330
It is stronger then the best pop you can have. I will come to that later.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651400#Comment_3651400
Exactly. It makes powerful killers even more powerful.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651402#Comment_3651402
I will try my best to explain why i think it is already alone a bit to powerful, even without the obvious combo potential.
Lets compare it with other very strong slowdown perks, and the best to compare is probably Pain Res, another very good slow down perk (we agree on that, i assume) which also works with tokens BUT with the essential condition, that it has to be pain res hooks. I have games as killer where i cant get much value out of this because hooks are not reachable. Not with Grim Embrace. It works all the time, no matter which hook.
The value of Pain res is in the best case 25% of a single generator. In total, we are talking about 100%, a ful generator, which is about the equivalent of 90 seconds of repair time. Now lets look at Grim Embrace potential. 3 hooks x 3 survivors x 12 seconds are already 108 seconds of repair time. Add the final hook stage on the 4th survivor, another 40x3, we come to 228 seconds of repair time.
I think i can stop here, since it is undeniable that almost 4 minutes of no gen progress is better then 1,5 half minute of no gen progress.
Technically, Grim is even better then Corrupt, if it would block all generators for the full duration.
Theres a flaw with the comparison as pain res regresses the generator, meaning the work needs to be re-done on that gen. Grim embrace blocks gens, they will not progress but also won't regress meaning if the survivor waits out the timer, which is practical enough baring the 4th proc, they can hop back on their gen and possibly pop it assuming the killer doesn't come. In addition the killer cant practically control grim embrace unlike pain res [you can usually choose to save a pain res token by picking a non scurge hook, not a grim embrace charge unless you slug or cage them].
In favor of the comparison though, that like pain res it requires different hooks to proc meaning like pain res survivors should know when its coming assuming their paying attention (or looking at the hud). They can play around it and can do things other than gens for those seconds its active such as go for the rescue, heal, chests, and totems. This adds a variable in the practical time its stalling like pain res [added bonus of making math worth less our childhood dream comes true]. Also like pain res, the ones not hooked yet can play more careful {hopefully still being practical though} to stall it procing [so used to hold w at a glance].
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@xEa said:
A friendly reminder that this perk, while clearly way to powerful, has not received it's well deserved nerf. We are aware that it might take some time to fully collect data and take action from your conclusion, but it is an absolute no-brainer that this perk should not work with DMS.
From there on, we have to see how strong it is, but if we let the 12 seconds per hook stage, the 40 seconds on 4th stage probably needs to be nerfed to 20-30 seconds.
Even with this nerf, i suppose it is still one of the best perks in the game, but it would not be close to gamebreaking as it is right now. Especially true on Billy, Nurse, Blight, Wesker ect
Can you please explain in-depth as to why you think Grim Embrace, by itself no combos, is "clearly way to powerful"?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650473#Comment_3650473
How so? I'll admit I don't play Artist, but it seems like static birds would still have mid-loop utility if they didn't swarm people.
The way I see it, if this change were made, placing a bird at a loop would become a positioning game more than forcing survivors to leave: You want them to approach the bird from the front, so you can launch it and injure them, and they want to approach the bird from behind, so they can run into it and dissipate it.
Artist wouldn't be mechanically restricted and she'd be given an opportunity to try something new with her power, but that new thing has more interactive gameplay than the current one so it shouldn't be as obnoxious to face.
Bit off topic but basically it wouldn't do anything except be an inconvenience. The most often complaints we hear is shes "braindead" and that she forces "hold W to counter".
As you said it'd still force survivors to leave the loop as said artist would only have to aim in a different direction, which wouldn't address the complaint. Further is that a counter swfs or autistic teammates can do is run in, grab idle birds, and run off. Doing this effectively forces the artist to make a choice of try and shoot the helper or continue the loop as a temporary m1. Currently since idle crows swarm, this tactic atleast comes with some risk, without swarm, it's just a pain, not op or anything, just a another thing to go "really?...". We can also do various tricks, while impractical when serious, are fun and hilarious to pull off that required swarming from idles (ex: leaving one at the long drop at the meat plant and one aimed at said drop). We don't wish them gone.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650454#Comment_3650454
My problem with that is, where's the line?
A lot of killers have general negative receptions depending on where you look. If we demonstrate that killers can just be removed from the game if people are whiny enough, won't that same thing be repeated for the next ones on the list that ""people"" (read: a vocal percentage it's hard to quantify) don't like?
Even if BHVR don't listen to them, it'll irrevocably harm the state of discourse and conversation in the community.
What I think is more reasonable is to make small changes that actually matter for how her kit works, and just wait. Starve the outrage fire of oxygen and it should eventually die down, even if the whiny babies make things annoying in the meantime.
(Also, Artist just needs to have static birds not swarm people and her problematic nature disappears.)
We would care to disagree about the birds
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650434#Comment_3650434
Clown is not forcing you leave to loop, he forces you to drop the pallet. And Clown still need to break pallet, SM does not. If you stay at loop, you will lose health state.
Simply Clown can't zone you, he can force you to drop pallet.
And Artist is also similar, she can zone you but she can't make survivor hindered or Artist won't get haste while forcing survivor leave the loop.
SM has both strategies in one kit.
Idk, you stay at the wrong loop and get hindered/intoxicated your probably getting shanked. Meanwhile artist can actually hinder survivors with a add on.
For the topic, probably not much will happen until people explode more about her (which would be something to see) since it's widely known that many people purposely throw against her, skewing data. If we had to guess BHVR is probably on the fence about her because while they probably want a "drone" killer, they also probably want their players to have fun, so the most likely thing is a rework like Freddy. But we're just guessing soooo.
For what it's worth, since the anti-3 gen system came out we're relatively fine with her, but teammates are another matter.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649328#Comment_3649328
Nah now I just slug, camp and tunnel to win with Nurse. It’s boring. I could go for a more chase-oriented gameplan back then. Now, even with 15-20 second chases, gens fly.
We see. At this point your trolling everyone. Fair enough, had us for a good while there.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649319#Comment_3649319
Again, you can’t tell me my experience is wrong. It’s literally my opinion lol. I know how playing killer felt back then, and I know how it feels now. It’s a bad experience. Survivors have always been too strong, but it’s more obvious now that strong regression no longer exists.
We're beginning to think you heavily relied on regression...
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649165#Comment_3649165
Most of what you said isn’t even true. There is no perk variety because you have to run gen regression and/or information perks. There is no deviating if you want to win. Killer wipe speed is a laughable change that had no impact.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649282#Comment_3649282
Basekit borrowed time, off the record, and the off hook speed boost is every bit as powerful as old DS and deadhard. I would rather deal with that old BS instead of this garbage because, again, killer had stuff that was really powerful.
There's plenty. Devour Hope a prime example that doesn't do either, Bamboozle another, STBFL was another. And guess what? We deviate and win. Sure not all the time because there are people better than us but we can win most. Just because some people are better than you doesn't mean all of the killer's side is at an all time low.
Dont see how what we said untrue. BNP don't instantly finish gens anymore, no add ons for medkits to bring someone from down to healthy instantly, infinites are gone, where are we incorrect? Your opinion on the matters may be different but these are facts that can't be disproven.
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We've been here since 2017 and while we individually dont have more than 5k hours we'd like to say no.
- We like that self heals aren't super quick
- We like infinite loops are gone
- we like no more instant up medkits
- We like no instant repair BNP
- We like the variety of killers and perks to chew up survivors
- We like the small things like quicker wiping animations and kick regression and now lack of gen tapping
- We like gens take longer (yes longer)
That bullet list above is things that make playing killer alot better than before so saying its in it's worst state seems false.
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You can blind a sleeping Charlotte to make Victor switch back. How Victor knows his sister is being woken up by a flashlight remains a mystery.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648821#Comment_3648821
As killers usually tell survivors to do. If your teammate is tunneled/camped. Just do Gens. Then its a problem that survivors leave teammate on hook to do Gens.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648845#Comment_3648845
I would say "tunneling Gen" means to focus to complete a nearly done Gen. And "Gen rushing" is survivors ignore everything to complete 5 Gens.
Survivors "tunneling Gen" because when complete, that Gen can not be regressed anymore. Tunneling a survivor just a part of the final goal (4K), but its not the main reason why killers tunnel. Its about remove almost half Gen repairing power from survivor side, and that making the work on final goal easier.
Fair but at this point we're just arguing definitions (and we see both as "focusing on gens above everything except last second saves"). All we say is that we see people's reasoning for the comparison of "tunnel survivors = tunnel gens".
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@jesterkind said:
Whenever a thread about tunnelling comes up, usually from the perspective of acknowledging it as a problem and attempting to come up with a fix, there's a particular rhetorical trick that some people will use. I have some issues with this trick, and I'd like to lay out why I think it's misleading and unhelpful.
The trick is the following: Someone will liken tunnelling a survivor out to genrushing, and refer to it as "tunnelling gens", to claim both sides are capable of playing their objective very efficiently but people only care when a killer does it. I think this is kind of silly, because that's obviously not what "tunnelling gens" would actually be if and when any survivors did it.
To break down why, let's define what it means for the killer to tunnel for a moment. Tunnelling, to me, is defined as the following: A killer chasing a recently unhooked survivor while ignoring everyone else, with the intent of getting that survivor sacrificed as quickly as possible. In other words, the killer is focusing on one of four objectives to the detriment of others.
The killer's objective is the survivors, and the survivors' objective is the generators. Therefore, if the survivors were to "tunnel" a generator, they would be focusing on that generator, to the detriment of others. If any survivors actually tried this, it would be extremely easy for the killer to capitalise on it. It's definitely not genrushing, which is doing all their objectives as fast as possible with the aid of the strongest tools available.
The killer equivalent of genrushing isn't tunnelling, either. It'd be playing to all their objectives as quickly as possible-- IE, it'd be spreading pressure and chewing through the whole team's hook states as quickly as possible, not just one survivor's. As you can imagine, this doesn't really exist as a realistic strategy or even reliable outcome, much in the same way that survivors "tunnelling gens" doesn't exist as a strategy. In the killer's case, it's playing extremely extremely well, and in the survivor's it'd be just throwing the match. Opposites, but equal and contrasted with one another.
As much as we agree that "tunneling gens" is a stupid way to put it, there is some merit to the thought process. The survivors are focusing on their objective which is to escape (yes we've previously said in another post that their objective is the gens, but that's a key to their real objective so we called it such) so spreading out to try and gen rush to get the door opened is somewhat equivalent to tunneling out 1 survivor at a time.
Can elaborate later if you want but that's a short version.
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People tend to run like headless chickens even more without windows~
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647911#Comment_3647911
really pulling the entire alphabet for no reason...
what I said applied to 1 thing. if something happens to 2 things at the same time, what do you think applies? could it be, what I said, twice?
*Shrug* who knows, people here often have more insanity than we do, so figure we should ask.
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Not sure if these count but had couple matches probably round 5-7 minutes (15ish minutes total from looking for a match to end screen) as oni and trapper. Oni had a really poor squad of people attempting to bully him and trapper got lucky with 4 traps and the honing stone effect.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647234#Comment_3647234
no matter what, you can't negate more time than the time that passed.
it does not matter how many people you interrupt. if you interrupt an action that takes 10 seconds, you negated up to 10 seconds. you didn't negate 30 seconds because there was 3 people there.
you interrupt a heal, you negate however much time was invested in that heal. and that is it. (obviously same applies if a perk removes 30% of a gen or something)
which is different from optimizing the time you spend, because two+ people can take different actions at the same time. and proper action economy always wins.
and anything like "but it means they have to heal later and that means I negated double the time", it doesn't and no they don't. If we bothered with this we would be just creating a scenario in our head which will fit anything either of us want. it's meaningless.
like "you stop the heal, oh look the last gen got fixed and they had adrenaline" or "they just loop you until the gate is opened and leave". we can go back and forth, it's endless, it's useless.
So say surge procs and hits 2 gens being worked on with the same progress. Is it X time where X is what surge reduced or Y time which is 2X because 2 different gens?
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@GeneralV said:
Artist is boring to play as, and especially to play against, so thankfully she isn't everybody's cup of tea.
As for Dredge, I think it is mostly due to map reliance. He is fun, but you rely completely on locker spawns, and if those spawns are bad there is nothing you can do about it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646850#Comment_3646850
Why play Dredge when we have auto-Nightfall in Lights Out mode 😒
Why not both?
Was wondering how it looked from a survivors view, thx
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646530#Comment_3646530
We all have been tunneled and camped for whatever reason, and it will never change. There are always those who do it just because. But they are clearly outnumbers by those wo tunnel for the win.
That is something we do not believe in the slightest. Just so we're clear, we might be wrong, we might not, but that is our opinion on the matter as none of us knows what everyone's true motives are.
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Though really depends on which of us you ask we tend to be an odd combination hyper aggressive yet non sweaty. Best I can say is like hyper dogs with their favorite chew toys. We don't really care, we just do what we want in the moment and enjoy (still having claws crossed for a werewolf).
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646294#Comment_3646294
I dont think killer would tunnel at all, because the only reason they do is it is the best strategy at the moment.
With a change like this, pressure gens / spread hooks and make survviors bussy would be more effective.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646313#Comment_3646313
Not sure if this is actually a survivor nerf. Why would it be?
If killers can not tunnel anymore (aka no quick 3v1), slower early gens completly justify the repair penalty.
And if killer keeps tunneling, gens will fly after the 2nd down.
Again, like i said, those number are not carved in stone. If it would be more fair to make it 80/120/150% repair speed or 70/100/130 is not up to debate, its about the bigger pictuer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646341#Comment_3646341
That is what i am trying to do with the idea.
The repair speed at the beginning is less then 100%, but once a survivor is hooked twice, it goes up to above 100%. If a killer kills of a survivor, the speed goes up much much faster.
"because the only reason they do is it is the best strategy at the moment"
This is the part where we disagree. Have been camped, tunneled, and smacked on hook for having the name "Rulebreaker" before and thats one of the tame crazy reasons. People will do as they wish and even if punished or rewarded, if they wana tunnel, they gonna tunnel. Hell, we've even been guilty of irrationally tunneling for a stupid reason, and we very much like to think we're not the worst the DBD community has to offer.
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Putting aside that everyone has a different definition of those words:
As much as we like the idea, it really wouldn't stop people from tunneling. People will tunnel because they wish too. Granted least it's a lot more likely that the others escape through the doors with this.
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@Adaez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645253#Comment_3645253
talking about basement that only spawned in main so far for me.
Ahh. Think that basement is always in main for the modifier. Least we all had it in main so maybe we're just unlucky.
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There's pallets and windows in the building...least when we were there.
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We preferred the one that added the plants through the map. These (if remembering correctly) were effectively the special gens and hooks deal. Not bad, but not super distinct.
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@Adaez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645223#Comment_3645223
Do you play killer or survivor more?
Depends on what the rift and achievements needed. If we're going currently then we'd say killer.
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@RipperX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645178#Comment_3645178
Video is a bit older but it has been made after the healing nerf and iirc a bit before pt and bnp slighty nerf ( or around that time anyway )
So yeah, it is possibile to do a gen in 25 seconds and heal in 6 seconds
First, that's an otz video and we're annoyed at watching what little we saw.
Second and starting to the point, to get near those times requires both a lot of luck and rigging builds. Not just one, it's plural, builds. As the video disclaimer said (or showed technically) at one point, other factors often apply, and we're going on a limb here and saying that most increase the times.
Third, you cant do all. You can focus on gen, can focus on healing, but if you hybrid, your never getting near those times.
Fourth, the things listed by C3tooth DEFINITELY makes playing the killer role easier than before. We definitely don't want to lose them.
Fifth, we're pretty sure none of this is possible anymore. It's too early to think to hard about it.
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@RhysVMT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643333#Comment_3643333
"Use the incredibly niche and almost detrimental perk JUST IN CASE I bring my press space bar on a locker to find out where you are perk"
You don't run UW
I now have a dead perk slot
Killers are amazing
You dislike it yet you are capable of actually doing something to counter it. If you don't want to roll the dice on a just in case thats on you.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643649#Comment_3643649
It's only a good solo queue stomper because people refuse to take any steps to counter it, and I have a special grudge against those players getting Mangled/Sloppy nerfed because I am a solo queue player and desperately wish people would start running some goddamn altruism perks.
They're really good, guys!!!! For the love of god!!!!! This wouldn't be a problem if you'd make helping your teammates a reasonable priority in your builds and playstyle!
Your asking way to much of people...
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Outside of events, we only let people go if they get the 4% swing or earn our respect.
Necromancy is spreading like wildfire. Surprisingly funny.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643091#Comment_3643091
Genuine question: Why on earth is everyone acting as though the Blindness only affects WoO?
Probably because it's the first thing that comes to mind.
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It may not be the worst but damn if it isn't up in the top 10. Like TheSingularity said, you can meet some of the nicest and worst people here and the worst here make up for the difference.
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Unless you somehow know it's a cheater our answer goes to never.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639949#Comment_3639949
You only have to wait out the Grim Embrace timer, not the DMS timer. DMS isn't activating if you counter the combo, only Grim Embrace.
And at that point, sure, it's kind of annoying, but that kind of waiting has been in the game for a while. If Deadlock blocks your gen or if Thrilling blocks the gen you're running towards, you have to wait out a longer timer than Grim Embrace, and those could do that more frequently than GE too. This isn't really anything new worth this kind of outrage.
The point was if you did get hit thats what it boils to.
And of course there's something new worth this kind of outrage. Something got changed :} (for the love of the entity pleeeeeease play along with the joke)
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You forgot to bullet that Grim Embrace only works with first hooks while you could tunnel and get value out of old eruption.
We agree that it's not as bad as old eruption combos, though we will point out it is a pain to deal with as it's effectively saying leave and go work on another gen/something or wait deadmans timer.
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Disclaimer: we're each sending a build your way, our response times will probably vary.
- Look-see (Doctor): Hex: face the darkness, ultimate weapon, dark devotion, surge. Any add ons but for fun purposes iridescent queen.
- Fish-hag (hag): SH Pain res, SH gift of pain, franklins, sloppy butcher. Any add ons.
- my game pig (guess): terminus, SH Gift of pain, hex: noed, hex: haunted grounds. Add ons any.
Edit: told me he switched out sloppy for gift of pain
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Our vote goes to map sided. Usually even if survivors bring their best, if the map favors the killer then the killer doesn't need to bring their best to be an even match. This runs reverse too. That said, theres soooo many factors to take in that saying its one sided or another is just silly
@[Deleted User] said:
Better question would be is this forum a hamster wheel?
the answer is yeeeessssss
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635615#Comment_3635615
Nah, referring back to when Eruption was in its prime. "Just wait it out"
Cute, least survivors can actually work on different gens with this. After so and so seconds per fresh hook.
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It's annoying, it's tedious, but not op. As shroompy said, wait it out (though I think we're on 5 the reckoning). Disappearing with stealth or waiting it out when it does proc (or not getting caught period but that's unlikely) it the counter. Calm spirit makes this easier as well.
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When we're active usually 6-13 matches on a weekday. As much as we can take on a weekend.
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For all 3 of us:
- Immediately throwing a strong pallet just to tbag. It annoys us for some reason and we'll start trying to murder everyone else just so we can have all the time to murder them.
- Greifing a teammate. Don't think we need to explain this one.
- Object of Obsession. Not sure if it fits here but it's the only thing in the game that gets genuine anger out of any of us. We see it, gloves come off and the only thing to save you is your teammates.
Each of us also gots our own personal gripes but we're not making a list.
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Apologies for the delay, all of us been busy
- Which brings it to the killer to not make it easy. Yes easier said than done but atm many don't even try.
Kinda flips everything on its head don't it~ Amusement aside yea, if it does become a problem for the average players then something should be done. Till then sit and watch the fireworks.
- Character and not player? We can see players not liking it (though that's on a case by case base) but we don't see the killer character in question having issues.
- Few things on this. The first is you can contest the gen without regressing the gen meaning you can regress it later if need be. Second is close to doesn't equal to being unable. Each detail maters and being able to regress a certain gen at the right moment can flip a trial.
The killer can play smart as well as survivors may end up stretching resources too far for safety. The killer is against people, not picture perfect bots, and humans have a history of screwing up.
- 🎶~
- Which brings us back to saying that taking a chase is probably the better gamble.
We find it funny how it went from saying that Pulsar said to take a chase to this
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We don't see it nearly as often now but we think its in an ok spot. If nothing else were just happy it can't be used for invincible distance guaranteed.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3630914#Comment_3630914
- I agree, both sides should want to be interacting.
- if the down comes easily, most 3 gen killers will take it. doubt they'll defend the hook, but they'll take it.
only if you think survivors have no agency over how the game goes.
- if it's a skill thing, yes.
- and how often is that fun? assuming the survivors are good at it and aren't just behind the first wall.
do you often use perks that happens to help with immersed survivors?
- but the gen can only be regressed so much, and was heavily contested already. I don't see any big risk in this scenario. and the killer supposedly gave up on the gen correct? why would it regress?
- we can always tune the timer afterwards. I assume it would be a quick fix.
- let's just agree to disagree on this one.
- something did get lost in translation... my bad. yes it is the 1 gen left to do, when there's 3 on the map.
- One less bullet
- We are assuming your referring to why 3 gen killers do what they do correct? If so we are unsure as to how this bullet goes with the corresponding one.
Survivors do have agency, but less than the killer. Its more of who does what then the other side reacts then repeats till the matches end. Survivors try this stalling tactic? The killer can simply chase them down and force the survivors to react by either doing the gens now, or someones going on hook and they got to deal with that while the killer comes back looking for someone new. If they're doing bite sized bits and assuming the killer notices, then usually the killer chasing should either catch someone or quickly burn resources for the next chase which they can easily find. Lose a gen now, get hooks later.
- Wouldn't call it just a skill thing as the killer also chooses not to stop them. That's a choice thing. Sure sometimes skill is involved but if they chose not to try can they say anything about it?
- For us its ok (we're not exactly standard here) as we like to actually hunt down people instead of running around a rock we can see over for 3 laps. Our build depends on the killer but generally we do not use many tracking perks. We learned to track through brains and being thorough (having to hunt down blenddettes during our early years without them helped). And just because we don't use tracking perks often doesn't mean they aren't an option. If people have a hard time finding survivors then the perks help shore that weakness. We are not opposed to something that would reveal super immersed survivors though like on IDV.
- The killer gave up on early on it but if its not finished they can go back and regress it. Theres also the fact perks like pain res and oppression can regress gens that were left. More time for the killer should equal more time to kill the survivors. We also can't find the heavily contested part in any post but if so then there should be burned resources if it genuinely was contested.
- And another one down
- And another one down
- [Damn so close] Then the previous point stands. The killer will eventually need to make some gamble as if 4 survivors are still kicking and theres 3 gens left, they're in a slowly loosing position by staying there. The killers objective is again the survivors and should be trying to actively kill them and now they can only wait so long before needing to make a move.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3630327#Comment_3630327
- I believe the killer should. because that means the survivors need to progress the game or they lose. like a push the cart game, one side needs to progress the thing, the other side win if they stop it.
otherwise survivors don't really need to interact with the killer, which I think their objective should incorporate it beyond saving teammates. (I know saying "doing gens interacts with the killer" is a bit of a push in logic, but they are in an area where the killer should be around so it promotes interaction at some point...better than nothing)
- they do if it comes easy and as risk free as possible.
if you can chase survivors and make them waste resources at normal pace, you are not at the scenario I described. just a regular game.
- no, not really. it's good if the killer does it but it's not their job. Is it my responsability to remember the perks of my fellow survivors and what their cooldowns are at aswell? or just better for me if I do?
- How often do you face immersed survivors? how do those go?
- so you meant earlier in the match, and that the killer should give up certain gens currently being pressured because they would eventually not be able to defend them. fair enough but I don't think being forced to give up a gen in this way is good strategy, more just playing around an issue. and what is stopping the survivors from realizing you did just that and not finish that gen?
- just add a 20 min timer to the matches. that way the survivors just don't have the time to do what I said. they HAVE to act.(can be 25+ if 20 seems too little but I think 20 is plenty)
considering the vast majority of my matches end before 15 min, this timer shouldn't matter to most games I would assume.
now, if you don't wanna just end the match at that time without anything, you can always add something like a special egc that triggers. maybe lasts half the time, killer sees the aura of the survivors for 5 seconds and survivors sees the killers aura for 1 second. nothing hides this aura reveal.
for lore reasons we can say the entity got annoyed and decided that you either finish it now or it will.
I believe this would solve any potential issue with anyone dragging out the game. because it now has a set time to end regardless.
- only if you consider captain hindsight a superhero.
- because if the survivors are doing it to only 1 gen, the killer would have all the time to look around that gen and find them. they need to be applying pressure in multiple places so the killer has to make one of a few bad choices.
- Fair, but we got different beliefs. We believe the killer should also be actively progressing the game. Survivors shouldn't be the ones to start the interactions as it's on the killer to be trying to kill them, they should try to be avoiding unnecessary interactions so they don't end up dead. Not to say survivors shouldn't also be actively progressing the game as well but theirs comes with the risk of elimination. We also agree that saying doing gens is interacting is a bit of a leap.
- Your going to need to elaborate that first part. "they do if it comes easy and as risk free as possible." (In actual details preferably) As for the second, since the killer can always chase, we can only conclude that they purposely put themselves in that scenario instead of a regular game. It sounds more like they camped a 3 gen the more we think on it.
- Fair enough, but then the killers really can't complain if survivors do take advantage of it since they didn't stop them.
- Often enough to notice. Tends to go pretty well for us since we can actually search pretty well, especially since we play both roles. Few things on that though. 1 is that theres a myriad of tracking perks (one of which is even extremely complained about for doing its job) that killers can run to help find survivors. Instead what most run is 3-4 regression or gen blocking perks which shockingly doesn't help find survivors. 2 is that hunting down survivors is a skill killers do need to learn how to do. Not just chasing down, locating them too. Crows flying off? Theres somethin there. A lack of crows in the area? Someones here recently.
- Thing is this also comes with risk to survivors as not finishing it means it could regress at the worst time. Both sides have to measure if its worth it.
- Are we to assume this comes with the gen regressing limit? If so then we admit it would be a simple and fair fix (though we'd personally go for 30 max. We like playing with our prey.) and agree to it.
- Still is a valid answer.
- We think something got lost in translation here. We are referring to 1 gen left correct? Not just one singular gen.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629826#Comment_3629826
I think if we say it's an issue that a killer prolongs the game too long by doing a 3 gen game, the same should be applied for the survivors doing the same by being overly cautious.
A distinction without a difference. defending the gens is important to make sure the survivors stay in the trial so you can kill them. you can't just ignore them, they are always something you gotta pay attention to. and you can argue that a 3 gen killer also does their job, since the 1 hour game stop kills the survivors.
saying "just don't get in that situation" is not solving the situation. I could say that to a survivor that get slugged all game, but what is that helping?
It is usually a niche case, but as it goes with these, if someone shows it is actually good, others will mimic, and it will become more common to go for it. like how more people did the 3 gen thing after that one video came out.
if that is your impression.
why does a killer need to consider that holding a 3 gen is bad? that is just contradictory to what should be logical. it's like if picking an item from a chest could be bad... it just doesn't compute.
nothing really. it's just that no one asked what it is yet.
"don't get into the situation" is not an answer to the situation. it's just saying "git gud and it won't happen" which doesn't help.
imagine someone said "my house is burning down, what do I do?" and the answer was "don't let your house begin burning down"... at least with this one you can tell what the is issue right?
ok
ok
yes 4. less and taking a long chase is way more excusable.
more likely 2 gens. maybe 3. why would you ever think 1?
making progress is not guaranteed. there's 3 options that I see.
-you can patrol and hope someone will screw up and leave too late, giving a better start on the chase.
-or take a really bad start on a chase, that they maybe will have few resources or will screw up allowing you to get them before the last gen pops.
-or you never even see anyone and have to chose between patrolling again or just looking around hoping to find whoever was around. which is a thing that already happens from time to time (but usually with just 2 survivors left) and from my experience no one likes it.
this to me just creates the same type of game that a 3 gen killer does. one side is going all in on time tactics, the other is not having any fun. which should get the same treatment. if one is bad, both should be.
if you say so.
- The thing is, both sides are different. We agree with the sentiments but its a bit flawed here. Now if your solution meets our standard for fair we'll happily go along, but currently killers can keep burning ridiculous amounts of progress until the game stalls out, the entity gets pissed, and the survivors die (Personally don't know what exactly happens but i'm of the opinion that the killer shouldn't get any points should this happen) or alternatively the survivors go to the gen regardless of the killer being there and either die or get slugged for trying to do the equivalent.
- The distinction comes with the difference of the killer not bothering to really try and kill the survivors and to add a bit of lore, not feeding the entity. While ignoring gens is usually bad you don't need to keep watching them every 10 seconds, especially when the prey is in view or keep going back 5 seconds, especially if you scared off a survivor without even burning a pallet or gaining a hit. If they don't have a fear of you actually coming to kill them then they probably will just keep hanging around. At that point, the killer isn't trying to actually kill the survivors, they're defending gens. If we're goin the 3 gen killer is doing its job route then we're gona say that their doing it so poorly its the reason the entity set this system up so it gets more emotions other than dull apathy.
- Is the killer not responsible for trying to deprive survivors of advantages? We must of missed that. If you have the advantage of not being put in that situation and don't take it, who is to blame? What is helping is teaching that survivor to do better next time. That said, this is probably a poor comparison as the killer has more agency in both these situations.
- Ohh we don't deny a LOT of players are going to try and copy this. The only real question is if its actually effective. We're of the opinion this'll only be effective at those who've become used to camping 3 gens or heavily rely on slowdowns but everyones welcome to place bets. Thing is though, the killer again has agency in what they can do. They can try and combat this and have a realistic chance of succeeding.
- Isn't this like your scenario? Why the killer needs to consider the 3 gen is because if those 3 gens HAVE regressed earlier in the match, then they won't be regressing when those become the last ones. If those gens have regressed then the killer can't buy much more time on those gens than others. This ties into the above "deprive survivors of advantage". Also depending on how many survivors are left then its going to be a losing battle of attrition for the killer. Insult our intelligence and cant compute...
- Fair enough. So. What's your solution? Lets imagine this becomes a genuine problem for the average killer so for this bullet we'll temporarily acknowledge its a problem.
- Ohh its an answer, its not an answer you like but its an answer. To the burning house, most (atleast where we live) are going to ask how it happened. Grease fire? Dont use water. Got a fire extinguisher? Use it *******. You summoned cthulu? Go to a mental ward... Each scene is gona be different depending on what tools you got at the moment. Which sorta ties abit below.
- We think 1 gen because you never specified details so we can think up unicorns and bullets for all we care [vague parameters gets snark and imagination]. If you have 2-3 gens left...then pulsar's answer really does sound good for us. Take a damn chase and try and kill someone. While true progress is not guaranteed, not trying to actively make progress seems like a worse gamble. And both sets of options (yours and ours) are all gambles. But again, the killer CAN chase and the end game starts if they do lose the gen, where time may or may not be on their side.
Haven't really pointed otherwise