Pulsar
Pulsar
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638032#Comment_3638032
He feels alot easier now. You dont bump stuff as much. I haven't mastered Billy either, but I'm still finding this quite enjoyable, even on console. I'm just glad I lvled him abit so I have a full loadout ready for him now.
Yeah, maybe, I just think it's too late to learn him for me.
I'd have to lose so many games and I do not want to do that.
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@CLHL said:
There was no problem with Eruption, that perk came out with basically the same effect, only the regression was buffed in the perk overhaul patch, so it was nerfed for no reason.
There is no problem with Grim Embrace, it works four times in a whole match. The combo with Dead Man's Switch can perfectly be avoided once you get caught once and you know about it, and in the fourth hook it's a total waste that only adds 5 seconds to Grim Embrace.
No problem with Eruption lmao
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638161#Comment_3638161
Problem I see is what's the point participating in the PTB if the input goes nowhere anyway?
Quite a few people brought up the DMS/GE combo, myself included.
Sure it's neat to try content early, but the point of a Public Test is to stress-test changes and comb over feedback to find logical changes when these problems pop up. If they're already planning changes regardless if they make sense or not and ignoring problems during and after the PTB phase then why even have a test? Feels more like a glorified bug-test.
It takes them years to do number changes or nerf overperforming add-ons.
Why would we ever expect them to change things significantly from the PTB.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638165#Comment_3638165
What perk in that loadout is stopping you from doing anything?
Oh, come off it.
I am not in the mood to deal with this today.
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@Sava18 said:
The perks are definitly op for him but the add-ons?
Iri tag is a dead add-on after the recent changes. He was like chucky before where you are going to get hit no matter what on a 20 second cd but he was shredding through pallets, now neither are guaranteed and I could just run base kit blight and be better off. Best you can do with it is tunnel someone with it but again why run this add-on for it?
New alch ring compared to old as well, It's solid but It's not down you in 10-seconds broken.
It literally makes him one of, if not the best tunneler in the game.
There is nothing you can do to outplay this add-on if you are injured.
Alc Ring is still absurd but not like it was.
AV was massively buffed. Crow and Rat got a slap on the wrist. Hopefully the tunneling 4 slowdown Blight spam slows down
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@humanbeing1704 said:
for me I’ve played 3 games and 1 was a legion and 2 were demogorgons haven’t experienced the new add ons
Just got a P100 Billy that tunneled me straight off of hook twice.
Won at 3 gens, love it.
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God, I sure do love NOT being able to do anything!
And guess what? It still hasn't reduced tunneling! Crazy how they'll tunnel someone out and then get free value and make the 3v1 even more unwinnable.
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@ChaosWam said:
I'm more and more convinced PTB isn't there for actual input at this point. Just a bug-test and they decide what to change after regardless of any feedback or warnings about this stuff.
I don't think I'll ever participate in another PTB.
At least you can participate in PTBs
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I'd play him but it's too late for me to learn.
Not really interested in getting curbstomped tbh
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637934#Comment_3637934
I really hope that's the case here. If it is, wouldn't it make more sense for the devs to roll it out when it's actually needed rather than in this weird transitional state where it looks and feels awful?
There's also a good chance that this was yet another case of putting resources into something nobody was asking for, was universally disliked by the community, and made it live into the game anyway.
Perhaps.
It's like the original HUD change. Was it needed for future mechanics? Yeah. Was it good when it came out? No.
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It's pretty horrific but I suspect they feel like they need it for new Events or Gamemodes.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637240#Comment_3637240
Saying "I don't care what people say" and the idea to "play for the fun of the other/both sides" are kinda contradictory unless I'm missing something.
Essentially "their opinion on tunneling doesn't matter". So it sounds like we've drawn a line and their are some survivors whose fun and opinions matters, and some who it doesn't. Presumably because they're being wild with their idea of "tunneling". At least, in our current opinions.
I listen to reasonable requests to play for fun. Reasonably, you don't need to tunnel (in my opinion, I guess) in 99% of games.
Obviously, there will be people who accuse you of camping or tunneling or whatever no matter what. It's like a Killer accusing me of using speed hacks as Survivor. Some people just don't deal with losing well and they aren't to be taken seriously. But reasonable people asking reasonably to have a fun match? I'm cool with it.
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I would enjoy having Console-only Crossplay.
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Knight 💀
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636647#Comment_3636647
Ok first off to make sure we're talking about the same thing, the numbers I used were referring to the number of hooks on each person, so 2-2-2-2 would be everyone on death hook. As the 3rd hook is death hook.
It seems like you're putting it in as which survivor you hook, so survivor 1 then survivor 2 1 again ect. and the order you go in.
That said, the version you gave here is a lot more reasonable, but in my experience that still gets you labeled as a tunneler fairly often because supposedly "you tunneled 2 people at the same time (#1 and #2)" or "I got death hook before you even hooked #4 once, so you tunneled me". Which to me sounds silly, and given your playstyle I would assume you agree.
Which if we're taking those player into account, in order to "not tunnel" what was given was not a good enough hook spread. If we agree that that's an unreasonable ask, then we can go with your version. Which to me sound reasonable enough. Tunneling is still stronger, but that playstyle should be good enough for most matches.
Right now I do take those players into account because of how many I bump into, in and off the game. So when I said and heard "no tunnel, 10-12 hooks", it was going for max hook spread or close to it. Since that's what's been expressed to me as what that means (not by you just to be clear). Which is also why I also said the survivors have to be... not great to do so. Again, at least if we agree that idea is unreasonable. If so, I'm adjusting my playstyle lol.
Well, it's not tunneling. Nobody gets hooked twice in a row and everybody gets to play the match. I don't really care what people say, some will complain over anything.
This will still get you 10-12 hooks, your just not hooking everyone sequentially
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Probably Killer-leaning on most levels of play and Survivor-sided at the very top.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636587#Comment_3636587
Because you're spreading hooks? If you're intentionally not tunneling anybody, ping ponging between survivors, and going for 10-12 hook games you'll end up with a hook spread such as 2-2-2-2, 2-2-2-1, or 2-2-1-1.
That's around your 8th hook before someone dies.
Bruh. We've been arguing about completely different things holy ######### I'm so dumb.
I go 1-2-1-2-3-1-4-3-2-3-4 as a starter. That can be adjusted as the game goes on. It's not 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 nor is it 1-1-1
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636523#Comment_3636523
Because doing so makes your objective go a lot slower and that's the chase time given for tunneling to be even, not ahead. I already pointed that out. That's not the time for 1 survivor dead at 4-5 gens. 50 seconds per chase is too long for that. So if the time for non-tunnel to be even is the same, that would me there's no time difference between the two in terms of objective completion. But that goes against what you were saying before.
It's not that tunneling takes extra time. Its that tunneling allows you to spend more time in chases since after 3 you get your slowdown from killing one survivor. Which as you said, is stronger than anything the killer has at their disposal. If you don't then you don't have that until around your 8th or 9th hook, which is late game and doesn't really matter anyway since that's maybe 1 gen.
Why would you be killing someone only at your 9th hook???
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Last time I played on Borgo it was dead zone central.
It does kill a lot of stealth Killers.
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I don't think it's the actual player count that's concerning, it's the lack of interest in new chapters that concerns me.
Alien and Chucky brought in players, sure, but nothing like what we used to see. That tells me that DBD has become stale to the general pool of players and that they're just not interested anymore. Not really surprising, as the game us going into its EIGHTH year, but still, a little sad.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636511#Comment_3636511
I thought those incentives weren't strong enough to actually matter in regards to tunneling or not?
It doesn't buy you more time than you lose by not tunneling though. It's not even close.
The chase times still need to be a lot faster than if you tunnel someone out.
Why? Why do they need to be so significantly shorter when you aren't tunneling? The game isn't balanced around someone being dead at 4 or 5 gens.
There does seem to be an incorrect assumption. Tunneling doesn't take extra time. The game is, for all intents and purposes, over when someone dies before 3 gens are done unless the Killer hard throws. You are also not going to be getting a full chase when you're tunneling. They are already injured in a disadvantageous position, it should be a 20 second chase, if that.
When you aren't tunneling, you are getting PR and Pop every down for four downs. That's 55% regression, but let's say it's only 50%. That's at least 45 seconds every down, not accounting for time saved via interruption, healing, rotating, travel time etc etc.
Pop and PR aren't going to STOP people from tunneling, but that's not the argument you're making right now. Pop and PR buy you massive amounts of time, especially when you are NOT tunneling.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636318#Comment_3636318
Tunneling time average: ~50 seconds
Me: "It can't be the same length."
Given non-tunnel time average: ~50 seconds
That doesn't add up. It needs to be faster then that. You have to make up for a 4th survivor where there wasn't one doing gens healing, saving, ect. for most of the match, extra time finding more survivors, and going from ~5/6 hooks to ~11 and the number of chases to get those hooks.
If it takes the same chase time, it's the same speed to complete your objective between the two or very close. Wouldn't that also throw the whole foundation of your argument of "tunneling is nigh impossible to counter and way too strong, but not tunneling isn't" out the window? Both would either be fine or both would be "too fast/strong". Isn't that untrue?
I'm sorry you don't personally think it's a good way to measure but it's important to have an expectation of how fast a killer should be completing their objective to be balanced with survivors speeds, especially in this context. So imo you're gonna have to give a better one or explain the one you gave.
You are also, presumably, applying pressure on other Survivors. You are using Pop, PR, etc etc since you're not tunneling one person out.
Your mere existence as a Killer allows you to buy time. By not tunneling someone out, you make it clear you're a threat to everyone and they cannot just sit on gens while you kill their friend. This, once again, allows you to proc PR and Pop.
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@WhoSoup said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636126#Comment_3636126
Comp DBD is a joke and nothing that happens in comp is relevant to game balance.
I wouldn't go that far.
It's pretty entertaining and it's always cool to see true masters of any craft, but no, I don't think it should have much, if any, influence on balance
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636263#Comment_3636263
What is the average chase time for a match to be considered balance while going for a 10-12 hook game.
45-60 is widely considered too long to not tunnel, so how quick should a killer be downing to make up the time differential between a 4v1 vs a 3v1.
Again, on average.
Hopefully that's better
Thank you.
On average, probably 45 seconds. Again, I don't think this is a good way to measure it, as it's normal for your first few chases to be longer due to abundant resources, then your middle chases to be short due to dwindling resources and an attempt at management, followed by a longer chase near the end due to despration.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636207#Comment_3636207
Ok but on average.
The average chase time is 45-60 seconds in tunnel games to be even as I stated here:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636100#Comment_3636100
So it can't be the same length. You need to make up for having a 4th survivor in the game doing gens, healing, saving, distracting the killer and ect which as we both know is a big difference; as well as hook count going from 5-6 to 10-12. As well as additional travel time between each chase to go to different targets.
How much time on average?
Could you re-state that?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636154#Comment_3636154
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636155#Comment_3636155
So just to reiterate and clarify, a chase lasting 20-30 seconds, or "short" chases on average what should be the norm. If the chase last any longer you're in a match where either the survivors are better/stronger than the killer or the RNG gave you the finger.
Chases longer than that in your average match mean you're not in the MMR you should be.
Hmmmm. Not nuanced enough.
Early-game? A 45 second chase is good, really anything under a minute or so. Mid-game should be shorter. End-Game can be longer.
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@Bartolomeo87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636117#Comment_3636117
Are we really using the killrate argument again? If we want to look at how balanced the game actually is I’d say we should look at the top level of play no? You know where both sides actually know how to play? Well it doesn’t get much higher than comp dbd. In comp the survivors are heavily restricted, and they also usually play on maps which are more balanced.
Even with these heavy restrictions they literally base the scoring based off hook states instead of kills lmao. The killer almost always attempts to tunnel one out asap and even then usually end up with a handful of hook states and with one or maybe two kills by the end of the game. That’s WITH heavy perk restrictions on the survivors.
At this point saying, “oh but the killrate though” is just disingenuous.
No, you don't look at the .0001% when discussing overall balance.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636065#Comment_3636065
But that's my average experience. It's not just "sometimes they go down really fast". It's the opposite, "sometimes they don't if they got lucky".
If they got a bad setup, it's even faster.
Which if that's what you're considering balanced then, ok sure. I suppose chases should only last a couple of seconds long.
Chases shouldn't last a couple of seconds, but like I said, bad maps and strong Killers change things lol.
You get Rotten Fields against Trickster, you just kinda die since the map is 90% open.
Conversely, Freddy on Asylum isn't particularly fair for him and that's quite the understatement.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636032#Comment_3636032
I don't think survivors need all that to be considered having the gens fly, or gen rushers or whatever. That's like saying killers can only tunnel if they're playing Nurse. I believe both sides can focus their objective to a point that its unhealthy on both sides basekit. I don't subscribe to this double standard of a killer can do it just by the way they play, but survivors need to have an entire loadout dedicated to doing it for it to count. Both playstyles can be done just by the way you play. At least imo.
"It's better to have countermeasures against tunnelling than incentives to not tunnel, yes."
That's not what I said though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you disagreed with my statement that having something to incentivize not tunneling is better than nothing. So basically you either want to punish tunneling or nothing at all.
But even with that version of DS, killers still tunneled. Because it was still better than not tunneling. Punishment alone doesn't make not tunneling stronger, it just makes tunneling weaker. If both are weak, then killer will just be weak.
For BBQ yeah, you're right, it was still better to tunnel if you wanted to play optimally for the 4K. But it still made people tunnel less because they were getting something out of it. To the point it became a win condition for players. "idc if I didn't 4K, I got my 4 stack I won". Not to mention BBQ also pointed you in the direction of other survivors away from the hook to also help you not tunnel.
I never stated I was at "high MMR" or anything like that. Just at my MMR the survivors are at a level where I can go for a 10-12 hook game and be fine. Hits and downs are a lot faster than in games where players tunnel to make up for the time differential (which also is a lot). Well, unless I get a brainlessly bad map and/or a ton of pallets. Without tunnelign/slugging/3 gen/ect. all you have to really rely on is how fast your chases end and prediction. In simplified terms at least. I don't think I could be in "top MMR" without tunneling. Even Otz and other CCs tunnel when they feel they should afaik.
I though survivors going down fast was a sign that they weren't as good as the killer. But I guess not?
Imo, the game is not balanced for a 10-12 hook matches. I'm all for pushing it in that direction, but that's not where it's at now. If you think that it is currently balanced around that, then I guess downs only taking a few seconds is balanced?
Which if that's what you believe, I respect your opinion. I mean, it's worked out for me so it's not like I can complain.
"I though survivors going down fast was a sign that they weren't as good as the killer. But I guess not?"
Just like how you sometimes get a bad map or a lot of pallets, Survivors sometimes get bad maps or few pallets.
Also, couple of Killers exist that just take away most skill expression.
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Probably never. I wonder who could be holding it back.
Someone should've told a company to play nice.
Often I wonder who that company could be.
Never did I think I'd hesistate to swap to PC.
You should see what I'm saying by now, right?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635967#Comment_3635967
I don't think the entire community on either side is out to get the other. But we also can't ignore the group dynamics of the groups we're dealing with. The majority survivor mindset, at least as far as I've seen and been expressed by others on both sides, it's that they don't really care about the killers side of the experience but ask for them to care about theirs. Often met with statements such as "gens don't have feeling". Yeah but the killers do. The killers, feeling like the survivors don't care, choose to not care about them in return. Which to me is understandable.
That's been my experience, and I've been around for a long time and it's been the same throughout. If it hasn't been your experience with survivors, then honestly? Thank god lol.
"Incentives alone don't work. You have to make it harder to tunnel if you want to see any significant reduction."
I mean, I feel like people tunneled a lot less when BBQ had its BP bonus, and that was just points not even a in game benefit. However, that said, I wouldn't be against the idea of making it harder to tunnel. I don't think it's necessary, but I'm not against it. You'd just have to make an as strong incentive to the detriment to even it out. Unless you also trying to nerf killers in general at the same time.
Of course there's a tribablistic mentality. It's an asymmetrical game, both sides have a huge hatred for the other. This constant insistence rhat one side is worth than the other is only you giving into that mentality yourself. BOTH sides are absolutely horrifically ######### to each other on a match-match basis. They SHOULD be better to each other, a little empathy goes a long way and that's why I've always made sure I play Survivor at least a bit, because it's important to me to have perspective.
BBQ's bonus also happened around MMR's introduction.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635967#Comment_3635967
So the incentive was perk changes alone?
As well as the basekit buffs to Killer, yes, the gen kick meta was the strongest Killer has ever been, ergo, we should've seen less tunneling.
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I love when you can tell that the Killer was matched with one particular player in the lobby, orher players be damned.
4500 hour player? Give them a 3K hour Killer. There's a bunch of 200 hour players in there too? Meh.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635707#Comment_3635707
Supposedly almost every killer tunnels, but we don't have a kill rate of 80-90% do we? As far as we have seen with the data we have available, no. If it was that high even BHVR would step in. It has to be counterable with at most medium effort for the average player otherwise kill rates would be through the roof. It's definitely not "nigh impossible" to counter. It's not such a "free win" as it's being made out to be. That or not nearly as many killers are tunneling as it's being made out to be.
For 5), the same is true in reverse though. Slamming gens is more likely to get you tunneled, tunneling will more likely get you BM'd. Hell I get BM'd regularly and I don't even tunnel or camp or play S tier killers.
We disagree on pretty much everything. You believe survivor is harder than killer and slamming gens is hard to do. I think both of those are easy. Gen speeds balance it out to me but to you not so. Presumably we're both speaking from experience.
What I believe we can agree on is as follows: tunneling is not fun for anyone involved. The game would be a lot healthier if there was something to allow or push more people to not tunneling that doesn't make the game balance or play experience worse for either side.
Do killers have feelings too?
Does it feel good for them when gens are flying by, such as having 1-2 hooks and 3-4 gens are already done?
Should both sides should respect the play experience of the other?
As a community and as players these are the things we can take into account. We can't change the game directly, but we can change how we play and treat each other. It been the same way in the community since as long as I can remember that the survivor side really does not care about the killer experience yet ask if not demand that the killer cater to theirs. It long past time they take into account how they act and treat the other side as well. Do I believe that's going to actually happen? No.
But hopefully you can at least agree to the idea that we should care about the players on the opposing side on both sides. As long as its one sided, things will not change.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635864#Comment_3635864
On the system side, I agree with you that you can't really get tunneling out the game without drastic fundamental changes, but I think we both know that's not likely happening.
However something to help those who don't tunnel is better than nothing. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you don't want to accept anything unless it gets rid of effectively all tunneling completely. I would say having something to help or incentivize more people to not tunnel is better than what we have now, which is nothing.
We might not get the sweatiest of sweats, but we can at least get some people. Maybe even the average player. The less people tunneling the better.
That was my entire point with 5. It's a vicious cycle.
I think Survivor skill is less straightforward than Killer, especially considering pre-requisites of having three other good Survivors around.
The game would be much better without tunneling I agree.
Really thought we had something going there for a second until you started the us vs them again. Neither side cares, at large, about the other. The idea that it's only Survivors or only Killers who are out to get the other side as a whole community is laughable.
That is correct because it has been proven that the more tools you give people, the more they tunnel. See the Eruption, CoB, Overcharge meta. Supremely OP, free value and the strongest Killer has ever been. DS and DH nerfed, gens take longer, pallets break faster, Killers recover faster and Survivors make less distance on hit. And yet, tunneling was through the roof.
Incentives alone don't work. You have to make it harder to tunnel if you want to see any significant reduction.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635837#Comment_3635837
Okay, if it's not enough for most people, buff numbers, what's the question? There is PTB for such things.
I feel like it will be enough on a paper for average players. If many people decide that this is not enough/too weak, go ahead and make it worthwhile.
The issue that I'm getting at is that you can't make something as an incentive to dissuade tunneling.
You've got to remove it and re-balance the game around that removal, which might include your incentive system.
Unfortunately, despite the fact that your idea is GOOD, it's so weak compared to getting someone out of the match early that it doesn't matter. It's still easier to tunnel and still more effective UNTIL you do something about that, no incentive will be enough unless it's extremely OP.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635753#Comment_3635753
Because I wasn't going to make tunneling harder? I was going to make tunneling not only existing playstyle, if you are going to win. With making tunneling a lot harder to the point where it's almost impossible to win with it, my suggestions should be twice or thrice stronger, since spreading hooks will be the only way to play. And my suggestion is not to replace tunneling, but encourage different playstyle.
For the same reasons, because not 100% of killers tunnel every game? Hardcore tunnelers which care only about winning will stay hardcore tunnelers, but many players (including me) want to chase different survivors and don't feel like they throw the game for no reason. And imo this will be enough to not feel like this in most matches.
But, like you said, you want to win?
This isn't really a big enough incentive to dissuade people from tunneling.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635687#Comment_3635687
In highest level yeah, it will be not enough to win without tunneling. But i believe, it's enough for majority of matches in general. And making it significantly stronger than what i suggested will be too much for average players. But maybe not, it needs testing anyway.
At least it seems enough for me to start wanting to spread hooks. And if any other killer will start to spread hooks with these changes, it's win-win for both sides. If not, well, it won't change anything for both sides either.
Okay yes, but you didn't make tunneling any harder.
So it's still stronger, easier and more efficient. Why would someone use your system?
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She gets hits from outside of 16m easily.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635703#Comment_3635703
Same to you what i quoted RFSa09 on.
You aren't accounting for map size, travel time, ease of locker access, the resurgance of Calm Spirit or player learning.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635536#Comment_3635536
Isn't that an opinion? Well in my opinion: If you're not slamming gens yeah that's true. But if you are then no since that's also really easy to do. If you mean "counter" as in "we stopped the guy being tunneled from dying at all", well you're not supposed to be able to be so strong you can stop the killer from even getting 1 kill. If you mean "we got at least 2 out" then yeah it happens all the time.
Tunneling is allowed and intended. True or false?
Survivor is easier as a whole to play. True or false?
Slamming gens is at least as easy tunneling, yet comparable in strength. True or false?
Tunneling is too strong with an entire team of good or equal survivors in play. True or false?
Tunneling and slamming gens are both easy playstyles that keep each other in check. True or false?
Countering tunneling is getting two out, or one out through the Gate I suppose. You understand why that's difficult for good teams and nigh impossible for the average player, right?
1) Bad argument. Not even gonna entertain that one. Saw the exact same thing in reference to old DH and Iri Head. "If it was an issue BHVR would've changed it, therefore it's fine."
2) False.
3) False.
4) Plausible. Really depends on the ideas of the players, builds, maps etc etc
5) False. They do not and that is a terrible idea to believe. They actually usually affect entirely separate people. If you keep getting tunneled, you're more likely to find a 4-man to slam gens with against Killers who didn't tunnel you. As Killer if you keep having BM at the gates, you're more likely to tunnel people who has nothing to do with it.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635684#Comment_3635684
They dont. You just UW after the 12 seconds when they hop back on gens.
The amount of time that saves is less than being able to pop a different gen.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635598#Comment_3635598
I have some i'm not completely sure in.
Like few examples, don't take the numbers too literally, they, of course, in a theoretical situation, need to be tested. And each of ideas has a bunch of "what if", yes, I understand that, I just don't want to go too deep.
+3% to speed outside of chase and +4% to all actions for every hook if you are keeping your hooks unic. Drop to 0 if you hooked someone two times in a row. Possibly could start working from second hook. It also will help weak killers to control maps while barely will do something for strongest.
Old Grim basekit: if you hook 4 different survivors without someone being hooked twice in a row (and no one is dead), all gens will blocked for a 45 seconds. Work twice with same rules. Probably without Obsession's aura.
Light Pain Res basekit: 10% from most hot gen if you are keeping your hooks unic. Start working from 2nd hook and completely disable after survivor hooked twice or dead.
I had also idea of Gift of Pain basekit, but it will be boring to see red progress all the time and other questionable "what if" are also here.
In any case, it's game slowdown and not speed of chase increase, because i don't think this aspect of the game should be touched with any ideas of alternative playstyle.
And how do you figure that as an incentive?
It's not nearly as powerful as killing someone off immediately, why would someone bother with that?
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635665#Comment_3635665
Really good points in theory (by far the best post) but i believe there is no time to do gens. I mean it litteraly. Gens will be blocked 50% of the entire trial, if not longer. As soon as the first survivor falls, gens are blocked.
Just go through that in your mind after the first down:
Everything blocked with Grim embrace. Killer waits a bit, enters next chase, opens a locker, blocks every other gen when survivors are on them. Repeat this cycle 4 times. 40 seconds block. Now Pain Res kicks in with the standard build. The issue is, that Pain Res does not even need to be used in the early game, it is simply crushing the survivors in late when they are the most vulnerable.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635657#Comment_3635657
That is a stong build, probably also to powerful, but no where near as powerful as the build i posted. You will share this oppinion very quickly when this is live, trust me 😉
Unlikely, as DMS and Grim overlap, making those perks redundant
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Not the greatest build.
Run Grim, PR, PGTW and Corrupt.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635569#Comment_3635569
Incentive to not tunnel. There should be alternative playstyle if you want to play to win.
Do you have any rough ideas?
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635460#Comment_3635460
I agree, that's why we need something that will reward killers for spreading hooks, which will do nothing in tunnel situations.
Also win condition should shift on amount of hooks or something like that.
Do you intend to make it as an incentive to not tunnel or a reward for those who already don't?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635341#Comment_3635341
Well lets reset because now you're just being overly aggressive and trying to label bias as a defense tactic. As far as I see.
Perks and even add-ons, sure I can give you that, but this isn't about perks is it? I don't know why this is the second time I have to remind someone of that. That's just a strawman.
But I don't know how you can come to the conclusion, that someone choosing to play in a certain way that the game fully allows and intends, somehow boost them above their skill level. They still need to execute their strategy and outplay their opponents. In this case they still need to find, chase, down, hook, and kill survivors. Meanwhile the survivors are doing their intended allowed playstyle of slamming gens and stalling the killers progress.
How well they can do these things is their skill level. Not how well they can be "nice".
Very well, let's reset.
Tunneling is a strategy that is inherently easier to perform than it is to counter. True or false?
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I don't think you should be losing chase entirely, but I don't disagree that they are too strong.
The issue is that the rest of the map is kinda ass outside of the two houses.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635339#Comment_3635339
But, that wall is their skill level. Why is it above? Their play got them this far, they're lacking in other areas so this is as far as they go. How are they above that?
Because better players will beat them? Yeah no duh. There's always a better player, so I guess everyone is boosted except for the best killer and 4 survivors in the world.
And thus your bias is revealed. A gross misrepresentation of survivor skill. Whether you like it or not, survivor is easier to play.
We both can play us vs them. Or whatever you're doing.
How so? I feel I've represented it quite fairly. You were the one who initiated a whataboutism as a defense tactic. Now, seemingly further defensive, you've simply begun attempting to copy me.
Because your perks and playstyle CAN carry you to a certain point beyond your true skill level. If a Killer ran Eruption, CoB, Overcharge and something else during that meta; they would have been carried due to the nature of those perks. Same with Survivor, although more difficult because you need three other people.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635215#Comment_3635215
If tunneling is the way to play, which considering its the most effective tactic, it is, then they're not "past their skill level" they're at their skill level. Unless survivors slamming gens also puts them "past their skill level" and they come crying for nerfs.
Also I really don't think we should talk about difficulty to counter vs preform when the main way survivors win is essentially "hold M1 on gen, hold W across map, run in a loop, drop pallet".
Yes, it does put them past their skill level. If they've been in a 4-man running gen perks, they WILL hit a wall where their poor micro and macro catches up.
Same with Killer. An over-reliance on tunneling often causes Killers to develop their skills poorly. Bad micro and macro play catch up to them and good teams WILL slaughter you for that. Hence why we get generally average Killers complaining about Survivors being OP while experienced one's are kinda chill.
And thus your bias is revealed via your defensive nature. A gross misrepresentation of Survivor skill as a whole in response to a factually correct statement. Whether you like it or not, tunneling is easy and extremely effective; it's also much harder to counter than it is to perform.