PickCollins
PickCollins
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/559428#Comment_559428
Survivors also get points for escaping. Much like the killer, you do not get points for failing to do your objective. If a survivor does not escape, they do not get escape points. If a killer does not prevent them from escaping, they do not get points either.
Except the killer didn't actively take down that Survivior. They just kinda sat there and let the Entity do its thing.
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@[Deleted User] said:
@PickCollins i think we need to let go of this silly earned/unearned notion. It’s a perk with a function that comes with an immense benefit weighed against a number of risks. If I equip sloppy butcher I don’t need to “earn” it. I hit the survivor, the perk provides its function. If I equip Discordance, the perk functions immediately once more than 1 survivor is on the same gen, I don’t need to fulfil my own prerequisite before I’m entitled to the function that Discordance provides. I could go on about other perks but i think i’ve made my point clear.
When it comes to the examples you provide then you are correct. But when it comes to instadowns, that stuff needs to be something YOU did to earn it.
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@Peanits said:
There isn't quite a double standard here: Both sides have the capacity to waste the other's time if they're petty enough. The irony in it is that they're wasting their own time as well. The survivors could, in theory, just hide once the generators are powered, 99ing the gates and setting up a tent in their favourite dark corner. It works the same way in reverse, the killer can open the gates and force them out once the timer is up.
It is unfortunate that there are people out their who will abuse the End Game Collapse purely to waste people's time, but someone who is determined to grief will always find a way. Prior to the Collapse, a situation like this could have gone on for hours. The EGC gives a hard time limit to both sides, guaranteeing that the game comes to an end one way or another.
Not really a hard timer for killers. The killer gets points for sacrifices done by the collapse, to me that isn't fair bc you didn't earn that sacrifice.
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@Atrushan88 said:
@PickCollins Why would it be OP? Because the killer would have 4 perks at his disposal most of the game because survivors ignore totems? How often do you see Devour Hope proc now? Almost never. Huntress Lullaby? Once you know it's in play it's gone asap. This would slow the game down and require survivors to actually work to disable a killer's perks.
Also what should I have done? I didn't have deerstalker, and I teleported as hag to get someone from getting the other two off the basement hooks. Let her crawl to the hatch since I couldn't find her? If I had've picked her up, the other 3 would have gotten off. Couldn't find her on the ground, and being first person means I can't see in all directions to make sure she doesn't crawl to it. And no, not ALL survivors earn Adrenaline. The ones doing gens do. The ones being super immersed or being chased and downed do not. If all survivors earned the perk, that would mean all of them did 1.25 gens. In fact that should be a prerequisite.
As for the killer doing nothing to earn NOED, that's the nature of hex perks. They're strong, but can be removed. If you want the killer to have to EARN NOED, it should be made where gets the exposed status effect on all survivors after killing two survivors and no longer be a hex perk. At that point "he has completed his objective" meaning that it would be just like Adrenaline. So would you prefer that? Or would you prefer being able to disable it?
Of course in this situation, adrenaline would guarantee victory, as would NOED. I personally prefer that the perks counter each other.
Okay onto you. Make smarter decisions. If you think that guy is gonna get to the hatch before you can find him, then pick him up and let the others get off so the hatch doesn't open and you buy yourself more time. Also, cleansing 5 totems strewn about the map to solve Devour hope is unfair as #########. You wanna build around it then defend ur totem. I agree totem spawns need fixed, but you shouldn't need to do 5 times the work to deal with 1 perk.
Also if a Survivior running Adrenaline loops you while the others do gens then they were being a team player and helping buy their teammates time to finish the gen. Ergo they do deserve adrenaline. I'd argue they deserved it the most seeing as how they did the hardest job successfully.
My Noed rework/change/nerf would be to either make the crutch less powerful or a ground up "you gotta earn this" perk. Or to allow small game to reveal auras again and grant bonus item charge when you cleanse a dull totem. Either remove the haste or remove the insta down if you wanna nerf NOED. That and/or give Surviviors more knowledge. One idea I proposed was to create a line of "latent" totem perks. Basically the perk is tied to a single dull totem. If a Survivior cleanses a normal dull totem then a small blue flame comes from the broken totem that alerts the Survivior that there is a latent totem on the map. Cleansing the latent totem is treated like a normal dull totem with the latent effect, and the next dull totem is treated as a normal cleanse without the blue flame, so at best for the Survivior they gotta hit 2 totems to know for sure that the perk is down.
@ArecBalrin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/557122#Comment_557122
If I was being ungenerous, arguing in bad-faith and doing whatever it takes to 'win' this discussion, I would say that killers earned NOED by successfully 'protecting their totems'.
You know what is wrong with this argument and you know that I know what is wrong with that argument. I'm going to ask you to acknowledge then what is wrong with your argument that 'killers have NOED activate without earning it', because I know and I know that you are smart enough to also see it.
Where In the killer directives from the entity did it ever say "defend the totems". In fact the two directives are "sacrifice meat to please the Entity" and "do not let the light in". AKA, kill the Surviviors and prevent the gens from getting done. Nothing about totems. And I appreciate if you would drop the condescending "you know you're wrong" line bc it's very annoying. And if you want me to be as flippant as you're coming off, I can probably guess that you run Noed and aren't comfortable seeing ur perk be the topic of controversy. It's ok tho, I remember when Surviviors defended old decisive....wait NVM pretty much all of them admitted it was a horseshit perk. Well at least they were adamant that met...wait no they admitted MoM was OP too...I guess they have more humility.
@RoKrueger said:
Horrible idea. It belongs in the Survivor's subforum witg the wishful thinking tag.
NOED is already earn when survivors don't cleanse totems.
Escape quickly or cleanse totems
Survivors not cleansing totems isn't contingent on your actions. Ergo, no, you didn't do jack ######### to earn it. If your perk triggering is contingent on the Survivior actions/inactions, then it's not a perk earned it's a perk given.
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@Mister_xD said:
oh, who said it was only a gamble on the killers side?
it is also a gamble on the survivors side aswell: shall i cleanse the totems in case there is NOED? chances are, that you spent quite some time off the gens for nothing, yet if the killer had NOED, you get a big reward for cleansing. you can also decide to not cleanse at all, which would allow you to repair gens faster, therefore you are endangered by a potential NOED activation.
now, since you called it the "safest Hex Perk", its also the only perk in this entire game that can literally be 100% useless. also, you cant defend it properly, since you, unless you run TOTH, have no way of telling how many totems you have left. any other Hex perk starts with a burning totem that allows you to defend it against the survivors.
"its also the only perk in this entire game that can literally be 100% useless."
Wrong. Ever heard of Third Seal and Devour hope getting cleansed before hitting a survivor/getting a token?.
If the killer cannot apply the gen pressure to stop your team from getting gens done, then they don't deserve the instadown and speed boost that they get. Plain and simple. Call me an elitist nurse main all you want but I've played other killers and have gotten 4ks without Noed (and no, I'm not talking Billy and Spirit. I'm talking Wraith and Pig). There are instances where the killer should be disadvantaged. They shouldn't get to be powerful at every stage of the game.
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@Atrushan88 said:
@PickCollins Adrenaline is just as good for survivors NOT playing well as it is with NOED. Oh you got a 3k as killer while downing the other survivor and closed the hatch, and didn't have deerstalker? Woohoo Adrenaline just kicked in and they get to the door before you know which one they're at. Screw your 4k(This has actually happened to me). NOED is a counter to Adrenaline because both are end-game perks. Adrenaline rewards survivors for doing what they're already supposed to do while also ignoring secondary objectives like healing each other or looking for totems, but not every one of those players deserved that Adrenaline proc. In addition, as you said, it's a perk that punishes players for ignoring other objectives. NOED can be removed from the game. Can you say the same about Adrenaline?
I personally think that all totems need to work like NOED, and have suggested as such. You should have to remove all totems to remove a killer's perk. It's 16 perks vs 4.
I can say that if you decide to close the hatch when there's a downed Survivior on the map, then you made a stupid move and got punished for it if they adrenaline back up.
I can also say that there are plenty maps save for the game and Lerys where the gates can spawn extremely close together.
I can also say that 9 times out of 10, survivors did their objectives and earned the perk. I can safely say 10 times out of 10, the killer did nothing to earn Noed. Adrenaline is a perk that Surviviors earn for winning and surviving. Noed is a perk killers get for not killing and losing.
And your personal idea #1 would not work and #2 would be OP.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/556953#Comment_556953
@PickCollins good grief. Do you play survivor? Often dull totems are placed in direct LoS of generators. And already cleansed totems leave a glaring, obvious mess that is easy to spot. Maybe 1 or 2 at best are tucked away, far away from an objective. I can count only a handful of times i’ve had trouble finding all totems (or NOED if active) if I haven’t been running small game or a map.
They’re not that difficult to find.
And even then, if it is suspected by survivors NOED will come into play, survivors need to be less reckless leading up to opening a gate. Too many survivors abandon all caution at this point and make themselves too easy to find on the way to a gate. Unless that EGC timer is ticking away, creep and hide and observe, creep and hide and observe.
I do play Survivior and killer, even if I play killer more than Survivior. Dull totems are in obvious spots this is more often than not true. But what you are saying doesn't refute what I've said. It doesn't change that 4/5 dull totems can get cleansed and Noed will still trigger. It doesn't change that NOED triggering is not contingent on the killer doing anything to earn the perk and is solely meant to punish Surviviors for ignoring a secondary condition that zero emphasis is put on aside from this toxic crutch perk. It changes none of that, and If you can't see that then there's no convincing you that this perk is nothing more than a pad for bad killers to get kills they don't deserve.
Killers have this issue. They'll never EVER admit when something is bullshit in their favor. Killers complained and moaned when Noed was reworked into a hex perk bc it was no longer a promise at that point. When Legion had the filthy and nasty blade bugs that were getting exploited they came at BHVR with the "######### why are you banning us for an issue you could try fixing instead of doling out punishment" thought process and then as Soon as they saw wake up was bugged and saw survivors with it they went "THESE PEOPLE DESERVE PERMABANS GATHER THE PITCHFORKS WE MUST RE ENACT THE SALEM WITCH TRIALS".
Hypocrisy, double standards, and baseless complaints have always plagued the killer community, yet they never admit it. I find it funny
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/556659#Comment_556659
NOED serves as a gamble the killer does in which he eigther gets a powerup when he is about to lose or has to play the entire game with only 3 perk slots.
and no matter what you say, it primarily serves as a punishment for survivors who screwed up their secondary objective. AFTER they screwed up, the killer gets his second chance.
Hardly a gamble considering it is the safest hex perk in the game, it requires literally 5 times the effort to cleanse as a normal hex perk and there's no way to know if it's in effect ahead of time
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Small game destroys trapper. Urban destroys hag. Spine chill destroys Spirit. OoO destroys Ghosty Goo. Calm Spirit destroys doctor
Honestly I think Ghosty Goo has it easy considering the other instances don't actually provide any downside to the Survivior, whereas OoO gives ur location away as well.
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@Mister_xD said:
ill make it quick:
NOED serves as a punishment for Survivors who screwed up their secondary objective.
it can be destroyed without even activating, which is enough of a downside for this mediocre perk. it is NOT the equivalent to old DS, since it HAS quite a lot of counterplay, which has not been the case with old DS.
Noed also serves as a reward for killers who screwed up their primary AND secondary objective.
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@PigMainBigBrain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/555797#Comment_555797
You play nurse? Thats gross, your killer ignores 90% of the games mechanics and dynamics.... could it even be considered a real killer?
Yes I know we're terrible people
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@[Deleted User] said:
Ok @PickCollins semantics. I’ll rephrase that to: If survivors have focused purely on just gen repairs and then find themselves up against NOED, it STILL means the survivors were arrogant and negligent.
I still can't bring myself to agree with you because credence to Noed can be given, but survivors can still get hit by it. Like I said previously, Surviviors can cleanse 4 out of the 5 dull totems on the map and still get hit with Noed. To me, that isn't fair. Especially when you consider that the counter conditions make NOED the safest hex perk in the entire game to use.
The counter conditions for NOED are so stringent, but what are the trigger conditions? What does the killer have to do to EARN Noed? Does the killer have to hook survivors? Do they have to get so many hits? Do they need to defend gens? In fact, they have to lose in order for NOED to go off. This was the exact issue people had with old decisive strike, was that the counterplay was finnicky and required too much effort, and it rewarded the other side for playing bad. Why is Noed different? Bc you can cleanse totems to prevent it? You could juggle/slug to prevent old D strike. I don't see why killers don't have the same issue with Noed that they did with old D strike.
Could it possibly be bc it benefits them? Pffffft. Nahhhhhhhh. Hypocrisy is a "Surviviors only" thing
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@KaoMinerva said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/556238#Comment_556238
Get the hell outta here lol. The worst killer perk of all
Beast of Prey would like a word
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@Well_Placed_HexTotem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/555797#Comment_555797
End game perks exist for a reason. The end game. Survivors reaching end game isn't always the result of "bad play" from the killer. You said you're a Nurse main which is fine, but Nurse breaks the game and a good Nurse doesn't have to worry about any of the stuff every other killer has to deal with. Mostly, loops. If I'm using an M1 killer and I'm not running Ruin or it gets destroyed 15 seconds into the game, then unless I got amazingly lucky map RNG, I'm #########. I might be able to stop the survivors from knocking out all five gens, but in the red ranks where I am now, they're going to gen rush me into oblivion. It's not "bad play" for a killer to be in this situation. It's called the meta of the game. And thats ignoring end game builds.
Also, it's not toxic to have DS triggered on you. If I hook someone and they quickly Deliverance off the hook, is it really toxic for the killer to go back and down them? If a gate is opened and I have a survivor hooked near, is it toxic for me to go after the injured survivor if they're unhooked? Same with BT. Yeah, the main use for that perk was to combat campers, but it gets triggered many times even if you aren't camping.
Both sides have end game perks. You aren't "bad" for using them lol
Except as I said already, the trigger for NOED isn't contingent on the killer playing well at all. It's based solely on the Surviviors. Yet an attempt to remove Noed from the equation can still be for naught. As I said already, survivors have to cleanse all 5 totems to prevent Noed, which means they can cleanse 4/5 totems and still have to deal with Noed. Meanwhile the killer doesn't have to do anything to get Noed. Ergo it isn't an "earned" perk. It's a given perk. Now gimme one sec to address someone else.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/555800#Comment_555800
@PickCollins Actually no. If the survivors have gen rushed and NOED activates then the survivors haven’t played well at all. It means they were arrogant and negligent.
The term "genrush" has become so arbitrary at this point. If ur chasing one Survivior, what's the other 3 supposed to do? Sit around with their thumb up their ass until you hook that one? Doing the gens is the Surviviors main objective. You wouldn't call a killer who hooks 3 Surviviors in the first minute a "hookrusher" would you? Bc apparently to you, survivors doing their main objective quickly is arrogant and negligent, but a killer doing their main objective quickly is...just playing well? I love the double standard.
If Surviviors do 2 gens while the killer is chasing one Survivior they're called "genrushers". If a killer hooks 3 Surviviors while the last one is on a gen, why is that guy not called a "hookrusher"?
@Well_Placed_HexTotem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/555797#Comment_555797
End game perks exist for a reason. The end game. Survivors reaching end game isn't always the result of "bad play" from the killer. You said you're a Nurse main which is fine, but Nurse breaks the game and a good Nurse doesn't have to worry about any of the stuff every other killer has to deal with. Mostly, loops. If I'm using an M1 killer and I'm not running Ruin or it gets destroyed 15 seconds into the game, then unless I got amazingly lucky map RNG, I'm #########. I might be able to stop the survivors from knocking out all five gens, but in the red ranks where I am now, they're going to gen rush me into oblivion. It's not "bad play" for a killer to be in this situation. It's called the meta of the game. And thats ignoring end game builds.
Also, it's not toxic to have DS triggered on you. If I hook someone and they quickly Deliverance off the hook, is it really toxic for the killer to go back and down them? If a gate is opened and I have a survivor hooked near, is it toxic for me to go after the injured survivor if they're unhooked? Same with BT. Yeah, the main use for that perk was to combat campers, but it gets triggered many times even if you aren't camping.
Both sides have end game perks. You aren't "bad" for using them lol
Back to you, your point about endgame perks is true. They exist and should be allowed to be used. However, Noed is the only endgame perk that you don't have to do anything and still get. You're rewarded for letting them do the gens. Not like blood Warden, where ur rewarded for hooking someone when the gates are open, which is fine bc then the trigger is contingent on YOUR actions, it's an earned perk.
Like I also said previously, Surviviors can cleanse 4/5 totems and still get hit with Noed. The killer can AFK in the corner and Surviviors will still get hit with Noed. That instantly means that the perk punishes Surviviors for completing their primary objective and rewards killers for failing theirs. Ergo, yes it is the definition of a "crutch" perk. It pads bad gameplay to help bad players 4k in circumstances where they didn't deserve it.
And to your point about DS makes no sense. If you down someone who deliveranced off the hook 30 seconds ago, then yeah you were being toxic. That's called "tunnelling" and it's a gameplay style that DS is designed to punish you for. Ergo yeah you gotta be pretty toxic for DS to trigger. If you are gonna call downing a Survivior Within 60 seconds of them getting unhooked not tunnelling then I've got no words. The only times you get hit with D strike is when you deserve it.
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@newavitar said:
NOED is our counter to Adrenaline and gen rushing. Remove Adrenaline and fix Gen rushing and we can remove NOED.
That's not a fair comparison. Adrenalines trigger is contingent on survivors playing well. Ergo it is an earned perk (Albeit frustrating to deal with). Noeds trigger is contingent on the killer failing and not playing well.
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Noed should be removed. I know I know but before the "Survivior main spotted" comments come in, I'm a filthy Nurse main. So killers as well as Surviviors hate me
Noed, simply put, does not reward the killer for good gameplay or punish the Survivior for bad gameplay. It rewards killers for bad gameplay and punishes Surviviors for good gameplay. Let's think about the trigger conditions and the dichotomy that is established.
How many totems need to be cleansed for NOED to not trigger? All 5. That means Surviviors can do 4/5 totems and Noed will still trigger. So there's a lot of effort that needs to be put into countering Noed. Let's juxtapose this with what the killer needs to do in order to trigger Noed. Which is...let the Surviviors complete the gens. This is btw, something you are NOT supposed to do. You are not supposed to let Surviviors complete their win condition in order to escape as a team. Noed allows you to let them complete their objective and rewards you for failing, which to me is gross.
Survivors have to be victims of toxic behavior to earn decisive strike and they have to work for Mettle of Man. They have to have a friend who is a victim of toxic behavior for borrowed time. Killers that ride everything on Noed are not smart killers trying to punish the genrushing toxic squadettes clicking their flashlights at poor bubba's and Wraiths who have to deal with windows. They're plain and simply put, bad at the game. And I specifically recall killer mains as a whole saying that BHVR shouldn't balance this game around people who are bad at the game.
Oh right. I forgot. Ur only bad if ur a Survivior main. If you consistently can't even get a kill with killers it's just bc Surviviors are OP, right?
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@bubbascal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/554095#Comment_554095
Huntress is not better than Billy by a LONG shot (pun) on anything other than PC, and Billy possesses superior mobility. Huntress is slow and does not have map-wide gen pressure.
Hag can be completely destroyed by either paying attention or Urban. You are either extremely new, a rank 20, or a Survivor main if you think Hag or Huntress is ANYWHERE near Billy or Nurse.
Dude Hag is widely considered one of the best killers in the game bc of her map pressure. A good Hag is hard to come by, but a good one can literally put the entire map on lockdown and defend gens.
Now pulling that off is difficult, but doing it is possible and very impactful
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@Dragonredking said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/553819#Comment_553819
That's literally what I'm ######### saying
Can I pose a parallel?
How is it fair for a Survivior that they are getting facecamped bc a Billy, by mere happenstance, chainsaw sprints in their direction and now he's right next to them?
How is it fair for a Survivior to play against Nurse in general?
How is it fair for a Survivior to get tunnelled off the hook bc they dared to flashlight/pallet/head on save their ally?
How is it fair that a Survivior loops the killer for 3/4/5 gens and bc the killer ran Noed, they get downed and camped?
How is it fair for a Survivior to play well, all their teammates die, and then bc the gates spawned in eyeshot of each other, they die bc the killer will know where they are and they can't do anything except run out the EGC timer and die
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You know ur making pathetic complaints when a dev has to comment on ur thread calling out how you didn't even wait an hour to espouse against the changes
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@DBDbuildsYT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/549532#Comment_549532
I think Gf being able to hide the red stain is a step towards the right direction, I cannot understand why a killer should have the stain, it's so idiotic
Bc the stain is there so the Survivior can stand a chance against the killer in the chase
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As someone else said, map design is an issue for pretty much every killer. Huntress is just disproportionately impacted by it due to her reliance on having a clear shot with her axes.
It sucks. I hope the map reworks that they do help with it
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OoO is fine. The people saying GF shouldn't be invalidated by a single perk have probably never seen how useless Hag is against Urban Evasion
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You guys do realize survivors get a period of invincibility after getting hit right? That's why 1 plague corrupt stream cannot hit a single survivor more than once
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@ReikoMori said:
They don't even remotely compare. MoM was actually screwing up the game balance to such a degree that it needed to be addressed immediately. NoED is one of the easiest to counter perks in the game on either side. Survivors just don't cleanse totems and then complain about a perk that has been nerfed to hell and back over the years already. Even without MoM survivors are just fine. You've still got DS, BT, Instaheals, adrenaline, and a sea of palettes. Make it work. I do and I don't even play survivor that much. Yet, I still solo'd into green ranks without using any crutches.
The perk should have never been designed to be so recklessly lenient in the first place and then released to the public. We wouldn't have to get thread after thread of "Muh MoM Perk is dead kill noed cause balance!"
Just play the game and wait till they do their job. Everyone knows protection hits are wonky.
This is a giant load of crap. The "easiest to counter perk" lmao you ever heard of Devour hope?
Noed is the safest hex perk by a mile and a half and considering its status isn't contingent on the killer playing well, they did nothing to deserve it. It's only contingent on survivor action, which makes it a crutch perk. It's there for bad killers and bad players.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/545210#Comment_545210
So are instant heals and some toolboxes.
Those aren't offerings. And no offerings that Surviviors have compare to the Mori
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@scorpio except the biggest boon of Wraiths power is that he can go about unseen. OoO makes it impossible for him to do that. And the boon of Pigs crouch is the same thing.
Yes OoO counters GF. Just like spine chill counters Spirit and Pig or how Urban counters Hag. Sometimes you just get shafted like that.
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There are a bunch of inconsistencies with Ghostface that I'm not shocked he's getting these changes. The stun dropping night shroud is something I wish would get less attention bc it is gameplay and thematically appropriate for it to exist. Ghostface is a true to form stealth killer, getting stunned by a pallet is counterintuitive to a stealthy game play.
The nerf that made it so he can't re-apply the exposed affect to a Survivior with it on, I imagine was intended to prevent tunnelling ghosty-goos. If you can't land a single hit in the 45 seconds of exposed you get, it might be more prudent to shift focus rather than continue going after the Survivior, since you'll often just end up getting looped more while the others condense on the generators. It seems like this change was meant to encourage ending the chase quickly rather than banking on getting off a second stalk.
And the increase in the detection window I've heard is minimal at best. It isn't a massive increase and it's probably to address the issue of Surviviors staring right at Ghostface still getting marked mid chase. I don't have an issue with it, since marking a survivor is supposed to be what you do to initiate the chase, not in the middle of it (not always at least. The mid chase mark is just now being given more counterplay instead of being removed entirely).
Overall I wish they had waited a bit longer before rolling out these nerfs to see if they really were necessary. But I do wanna say that I'm kinda surprised people who comment on these nerfs with negative opinions choose to shut their ears and not give credence to the other side. You were hard pressed to find Surviviors that didn't think old decisive or old MoM wasn't overpowered for example, yet any potential talk about GF being too good or even a smidge too strong is met with anger and not open mindedness or respectful disagreement. What GF got on the PTB were hotfix buffs. Hotfix buffs are more often than not designed to make a character/ability/item too strong even if just a little bit. It's called "hotfix" bc there isn't supposed to be much thought behind the reverberating affects of the changes. I wish they had waited to see if GF was too strong, but to declare him mid tier, day he needs no nerfs and then call it a day and get mad at nerfs is just ignorant.
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I think the Nurse speaks to a problem that's more meta related rather than her in particular. And that issue is that there isn't enough emphasis, incentive, or viability in exploiting her largest weakness: that weakness being stealth based gameplay. It's not rewarded very much, there are a lot of perks that counter it, and there aren't many perks that promote and support it.
Also, @xXNurseXx the Nurse is honest to God kinda easy and this is coming from a Nurse main. The hardest thing about her is the mindgames which other killers have a much harder time getting value out of.
But as for the main point of this thread, I saw on a YouTube video that once dedicated servers go live, they are gonna start cracking down hard on intentional DCS
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@ba_tetsuo is it a correct assumption to say you support stealth play then?
And as for @Skemooo I don't think you fully grasp how skillful being stealthy is. Especially when you stop to consider all the anti stealth perks in the game that exist vs how weak and low in variety a lot of stealth based perks are. Playing stealth isn't easy. And it's very nerve wracking since you sacrifice a lot of chase and loop potential to get ur evader medal.
Plus borderline every stealth build needs Urban Evasion, which forces you to only be able to be creative with 3 perk slots vs 4
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You can't fix totem spawns bc adaptability exists. Survivors will just adapt to the new spawns and then we will be back to the same old "FiX tHe ToTeM sPaWnS" #########
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I think the issue here that my fellow killers aren't understanding is that it should be in our favor if it's a 1v1. That doesn't mean we get it without trying. We should have to put forth effort to get our kill. It's asymmetrical in the sense that we get all the natural advantages already. Unless ur Nurse you move faster than a Survivior, there's nowhere they can go where we can't, and we all have abilities that help us kill them.
Now I disagree with OP. I think 99ing the gates if the hatch is closed is taking balancing EGC way too far. But I do think the exit gates should have fixed spawns on the opposite corners of each map, that way we aren't dealing with this "Hur dur the gates are in eye shot of each other" bullshit. Bc then it really is just a free kill that we got through RNG, not outplaying the only Survivior who wasn't a bonobo
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The issue with Legion is not only how he's still just an unfun character to play against bc of how helpless You are against him in Frenzy, it's also bc he carries the Stigma of being a poisonous thorn up the ass of anybody playing against him. Y'all know how we killers hated decisive strike? Or how we currently hate adrenaline (you morons saying it's broken need to stop)? Legion was the Decisive strike of killers. A 0 counterplay nightmare that nobody wanted to play against. And making 4 people not have fun and tilting them 8 ways to Tuesday is not what this game is about.
Even now he might not be amazing, but most of the complaints is bc of the Stigma that sticks with him. And that's a stench that's gonna stay. We cannot blame Survivior mains for the flawed design of legion just like we can't blame them for the flawed original design of decisive strike. Or how we can't blame killer mains for the flawed design of the Nurse or the Huntresses hatchet hitboxes.
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The issue is that it's funny to me that the devs are perfectly willing with implementing ways to prevent Surviviors from holding the game hostage but when killers have ways to hold the game hostage (even when the basement isn't part of the equation, eg one of the hatch spawns in Badham being set so the killer can corner a Survivior and prevent them from even attempting a hatch escape) they're dead f***ing silent
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This issue has popped up a few times on Reddit and someone came up with a solution that I like.
If the killer is holding still for longer than 20 seconds not doing anything, the Entity will stun the killer for 10 seconds and remove their collision. This would not be reduced by enduring.
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I'm loving the Legion rework discord simply bc of how two faced so many people seem to be now that it's been revealed.
My fellow killer mains, I've seen complain about losing frenzy if you miss a stab. My question, why shouldn't you? Spirit doesn't get Yamaokas back if she messes it up. Nurse doesn't get her blinks back with no fatigue if she messes them up. Plague doesn't get corrupt purge back if she misses it. Pig doesn't get her bear traps back when they get removed and she doesn't get a do over if she misses her ambush. Part of the reason Legion is so annoying is that he had no counterplay with frenzy and the fact that you can miss and still hold onto it is part of that "no counterplay".
Another complaint I hear frequently is that it isn't fair that Legion can't see blood in Frenzy. Again I compare him to other killers. Spirit is one of the best killers in the game and with her power, she can't see SURVIVORS. Legion will be fine not getting to see blood.
The third biggest thing I hear people complain about is that you need to have Frenzy fully charged to use it again. And yet again I go back to the Spirit for comparison. Spirit doesn't get to use Yamaokas unless her guage is full and she's one of the best Killers in the game. Legion will be fine if there's heaven forbid a little bit of downtime between his frenzies.
A lot of people don't understand the power behind 115% movement. It's actually really good. That means without frenzy he's a normal M1 killer.
I don't think this is where Legion will end up staying, but I do think that these changes will make him less frustrating to play against and, more importantly, easier to balance for the dev team. And listening to the killer players who talked about how trash Legion was now ######### at Behaviour saying "Legion was fine how dare you make these horrible changes how dare you only appease Surviviors" as if a giant swath of nerfs weren't already made to Surviviors Including this new endgame feature.
But the knee jerk reactions are fun to watch so please continue complaining bc I love seeing the stupid arguments that impulsive people come up with.
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Killers already get a visual and audio warning when Surviviors fail skill checks. An aura reading perk would be redundant
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@NoShinyPony no, just tie it to a normal totem. I never really understood why NOED needed to be unique in this aspect. Devour Hope is tied to a lit totem. Huntresses lullaby is tied to a lit totem. I'm sure there are other Hex perks that take time to activate and are tied to lit totems but I'm sick and away from my computer so I can't really look, but do you see what I mean?
NOED is currently the safest hex perk in the game while simultaneously being one of the strongest, if not the strongest. It isn't just the counterplay aspect to it. It's the nature of the perk itself that irks me.
If a Survivior group completes their primary objective but fails their secondary, the killer gets a massive benefit. But this would only happen if simultaneously the killer failed both their primary and secondary objective. That's my issue with the perk. The nature of NOED is very "crutch". It holds up bad killers. One example is a game I played against a Wraith that I mentioned a while ago. But bc if I were in your shoes I wouldn't want to dig through this post looking for it, I'll just give a recap.
There was a wraith doing rly bad against my soloq group. We were all doing good. Our other Meg and Jane were looping him really well, I got 3/5 gens done and Nea got the other two. But our Jane went down right before the final Gen popped. I run over to save Jane from the hook bc I thought Wraith was gone, but he came around the corner and insta downed me, he proceeded to get Meg and Nea before the door even opened. The Wraith had NOED, obviously.
My point is, why should that wraith deserve a 4k? He failed to kill the Surviviors before the gens were done. Did he deserve the 4k bc we left one totem? That dichotomy seems very bent in favor of the killer, yet so many people would assure you that killers are underpowered and how borderline everything in the game is focused on making killers weak. Strongest example: Thyde Thyme.
My point is I'm not exactly sure why such a powerful hex perk gets to be so SAFE. Know what I mean? The whole nature of hex Totems is that they're supposed to be high risk. So why NOED gets some odd exemption from that rule irks me.
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This is coming from the guy who lost his marbles bc people called him out for face camping a hook, who then proceeded to play one of the most disappointing Hillbillies ever, just to make a point that camping a hook is okay.
The same guy who also insulted people who disagreed with his Hag tier placement, put Myers in S tier, and I'm pretty sure has called adrenaline bullshit while calling NOED perfectly balanced. He's also admitted to being biased towards killers bc he still believes they're underpowered after god knows how many nerfs and buffs come out in favor of killers.
I'll pass
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/390858#Comment_390858
Dribbling was a bullshit exploit created by the community to counter this bullshit perk, nothing more. I'm sure the devs didn't plan ahead that killers could just drop the survivor before hitting the skillcheck. Even if they did their thought process wouldn't have went as far as thinking you could "dribble" survivors to counter the perk. Even then, I already mentioned that it isn't always an option + it wastes a good chunk of time.
The noed change where all tiers get the exposed effect was absolutely needed. Perk tiers 1&2 should at least be usable. Noed 1&2 were absolutely and utterly useless to the point where you'd see better use out of Unrelenting and spamming M1 at any hint of survivors. A good example of perk tiers would be Urban Evasion, tier 1&2 are still very good and 3 is a nice boost to the perk's effect.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/390907#Comment_390907
You STILL insist on keeping your head in your backside. I already told you the reason the DEVS decided to nerf was because it had no downside to justify its strength. The situation you described was more of an annoying/I so didn't expect that type situation.
Tell me this, if you're constantly getting dicked on by this noob perk that only *noobs* use, what does that make you when you keep getting smacked by noobs?
Someone who is sick of crutch perks. I'm guessing ur a killer main so what was ur frustration with decisive? Was it bc it stopped you from tunnelling your obsession? Or maybe you couldn't carry a Survivior to the basement from a long distance? Well whatever it was, you got ur wish and the perk is now worthless.
I gladly play both roles and I refuse to run NOED bc it's a perk for noobs. Call a spade a spade, the perk is no fun, rewards bad gameplay, and gives killers free, undeserved kills.
If Surviviors Don't get their free escape killers shouldn't get their free kills.
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@NoShinyPony said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/390598#Comment_390598
@PickCollins You mean NOED should be a shiny totem from the start of the trial? That would make it useless.
Also, you can force a killer to lose their bloodlust. Blind them or force them to break a pallet. And don't forget that Bloodlust got nerfed. What we are currently dealing with as Bloodlust tier 3 is the old Bloodlust tier 2.
No. Just make it a normal hex totem like ruin, devour hope, and haunted ground. Enough of this "if it's dull you should be scared" BS. Dull totems are meant to be padding for score, not a catalyst for bad players to get free reward
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The term "gen rushing" is just a stupid phrase. Its the primary goal of the Surviviors to do the generators, would you be ok with Surviviors having a perk that forces killers to do something that isn't kill the Surviviors and then call them "kill rushers" when they skip that tactic and go straight for Surviviors? No. Rushing to finish your primary win condition isn't cheesey, it's smart.
And as for NOED. Let me just say this. Surviviors aren't sitting around the map with their thumb up their ass waiting for generators to auto repair themselves. They have to avoid the killer, position themselves properly if they get caught so they don't die, do the gens, and cleanse all lit totems. Everyone here defending NOED is srsly gonna effing tell me that if 1 dull totem slips Through the cracks, then the killer who wasn't even good enough to apply proper gen pressure deserves a haste and insta down?
Fuuuuuuuuck that. That's as crutch as DS.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/390583#Comment_390583
Neither of these two perks you mentioned directly attack the opposing side. It gives you an advantage sure, but it doesn't directly hinder the other side's gameplay. It doesn't matter what the complaints were about, fact is that the devs nerfed DS due to how unbalanced it is.
And bc of how decisive was a "bad play high reward" perk. NOED is in the same vein. Can it be shut down? Yes. But how often is it actually shut down considering how common it is? Unless it's a SWF and they know to be on the lookout for it, nobody is gonna have a clue until someone gets insta downed. If it's a team of randoms, good effing luck.
I just had a game where we got all 5 gens against a Wraith and only 1 person got downed. I went to save the Jane but it turned out he had insidious, lunged at me from around a doorway, and instadowned me. I did 3 of those 5 gens and I was tunnelled and killed bc of NOED. Ur Seriously gonna tell me someone who didn't even have the skill to stop someone from doing 3 gens and knew to save sprint burst for when he was uncloaking deserves to insta down him?
Yeah pass on that horseshit. Make NOED a normal hex perk and remove the god-damned haste and it'll be balanced.
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@NathanExplosion said:
I'm still wondering how you managed to associate "Inexperienced" with "Stupid" by reading my post.
Wasn't insultive in any way, sorry not sorry i guess ?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/596/JQSQCP5LFWHK.png
Also i already adressed your points, you just somehow took it as "insults".
For the "smarter survivor looping the killer"...
It got adressed 2 posts above, you should read it, it's quite well explained.
And to make you understand the silliness of the "Why killers walk faster ? Unfair !" argument:
Pick Nurse, she walk at the same speed as survivor.
Don't use your blink.
See how well it goes trying to catch up to someone running at the exact same speed.
See ?
She actually walks slower than a Survivior so...
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@Caretaker said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/390598#Comment_390598
Boo hoo? God forbid you do anything outside of run through an ultra safe loop, cow shed, cow tree, killer shack, Haddonfield, 90% of the loops in the game and afk on a generator. I said it once, I'll say it again, BLOODLUST DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. It takes 45s to get to BL 3, which was nerfed. That's over half a generator for a single hit. Devs said chases should be over in 15s. That's why Evader pockets your points in 15s increments. 5 gen, x minutes long chases aren't meant to be a thing.
If that's the case then why is it a viable strategy to tunnel a Survivior? If the Survivior manages to keep themselves from the killer for over 15 seconds, call me crazy but I don't think the killer ######### deserves a speed boost to catch up to them when borderline all of them already move faster than the Survivior, and the only one that doesn't has a super powerful gap closing ability that makes her the best killer in the game by miles.
But that isn't what happens. Killers tunnel Surviviors and perks like dying light encourage that strategy, meanwhile the anti tunnelling perk known as decisive strike was just nerfed hard enough that all it takes is enduring to get clearance to tunnel once again.
And if looping is unintended, as someone previously mentioned, then Barbeque and Chili, Whispers, and every other anti stealth perk in the game needs to be ######### removed. Surviviors hinge on pallets and Windows to escape killers when caught. Stealth is a weak mechanic, due to all the anti stealth perks that exist (and let's not even mention the locker nerf where you get aura blindness. Make those things even less reliable why don't you).
A coordinated group of Surviviors is 4 against 1, they should have an advantage. An uncoordinated one is basically a bunch of potatoes running around, that's why I play the loner game as a Survivior, bc often times helping them isn't worth the risk it brings me. But I've been in coordinated SWF groups before. I think in that sense, the killer should be able to carry more than 4 perks. I think that's unfair to the killer that they only get 4 vs effectively 16.
BUT. If looping is truly such a bad thing, then it should be deleted alongside every anti stealth perk in existence. If that's the game the devs want, that's what they should do. Instead perks that help Surviviors in the chase as well as perks that make them more prone to getting caught (object of obsession anyone?) Exist, so obviously looping is here to stay and should be something spoken about. If a Survivior can keep a killers attention for over 15 seconds, call me insane, crazy, stupid, or inexperienced all you like, but I know undeserved ######### when I see it and Bloodlust is definitely that.
But back to NOED. It's bullshit. Tie it to a burning totem and remove the haste, boom now it's balanced.
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@NoShinyPony said:
Why is cleansing totems more annoying than repairing gens?
Cleansing totems it not more annoying than repairing gens. The issue is that NOED is tied to dull totems and not live ones. If it was just a live totem, I'd have much less of an opposition to it. I don't think it's fair that survivors should have to worry about dull totems. And I think that if they do, they shouldn't have to worry about Bloodlust to compensate. If a killer with either higher base move speed than a survivor (Or blinks if ur the Nurse) cannot catch a survivor, I don't think they deserve a speed boost to get their job done.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/390479#Comment_390479
IMO the lame part of NOED isn't even the one shot, it's the speed boost. It outright breaks 115 killers and just makes it that much easier to catch people.
I've said this before, but NOED should require 3/2/1 totems to activate. That helps newbies, since they don't have to destroy ALL the totems only 3 if it's tier 1, but keeps it mainly as is for tier 3. And no it wouldn't be like HG where it lights multiple totems, there would just need to be that many totems left on the map and it picks one. And they don't have all need to be dull, just 1 needs to be dull to apply the Hex. So if you run a Hex build with like Ruin, TOTH, HG, and NOED, and they leave a dull totem and HG then NOED will still proc. IMO that's fair and balanced for all parties.
I kind of agree. I think the haste is one of the biggest pieces of bullshit for NOED. "Oh you get an instadown and a speed boost" Suddenly every killer moves that much faster and instakills survivors. Good luck to anyone not near an exit gate when the last gen pops. And if the killer has blood warden, well...you thought you could win.
I'd rather NOED just be treated like a normal hex perk, and the haste removed entirely. You cleanse the assigned totem, and that's it. no NOED. It's bullshit that survivors have to worry about cleansing dull totems just so when they do their job, they aren't gambling with fate and potentially giving the killer a win s/he didn't deserve.
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@NathanExplosion said:
@PickCollins "The problem is that Surviviors are a group of 4, and naturally one individual Survivior will never beat a killer even if they are of equal skill. Bloodlust, every killer (sans Nurse) having a higher base move speed than Surviviors, killers with range abilities like Huntress, Plague, and Clown, all of these things make single handedly outwitting a killer Difficult to the point of damn near impossibility"
If you call that"problems" or find this too hard , i already know that you don't even played 100 hours.
No problem!
We all got to start at one point.
But maybe you shouldn't talk about balance when you find basic game mechanic like that "nearly impossible".
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/014/U4ZSUY9L7X2B.png
Or you're pushing an agenda, wouldn't surprise me either.
You ignored literally everything I pointed out. So why am I inexperienced or somehow stupider than thou for pointing out that every killer sans the Nurse has a higher base move speed than survivors? Or how bloodlust was added bc killers apparently aren't allowed to get looped by smarter survivors? Or how ranged abilities like those of the Huntress, Plague, or Clown make the act of 1 survivor single handedly holding the killers attention while their friends go out and do gens and totems near impossible?
Every killer except for Freddy, Wraith, and Cannibal, have some kind of innate ability that helps them catch survivors. Nurse is obvious, Billy is obvious, Plague has VP and CP, Spirit has phase walk, Legion has FF, Clown has APT, Pig has lunge, Meyers has stalk which lets him get an insta down, doctor has shock therapy, Hag has blackened catalyst, trapper has traps, etc.
You treat me like I'm stupid, yet you completely ignore every point I make and act like none of it matters simply because you disagree with it. And the patronizing language that you're using is language I don't appreciate. I'm not a child and I don't appreciate being treated like one.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/390479#Comment_390479
We can't just "forget counterplay" because the entire argument isn't about the purpose of these perks at all, it's about how strong they are, and what their counterplay is to justify their strength. DS had absolutely no counter play other than cheesy workarounds like dribbling that may or may not be an option, or using enduring hoping that there isn't a nearby loop or pallet. Noed on the other hand has a very clear and direct counter that would completely negate its effect if pulled off correctly. That's besides the fact that you can still cleanse the noed totem after it lights up.
If the old DS had a clear and direct counter, I guarantee you that no one would complain, and anyone that did would probably be told to suck it up and do said counter. Any perk that directly attacks/hurts the opposing side needs to have some form of counterplay or conditions, otherwise it'd be overpowered just like the old DS.
I could point out the multitude of survivor perks that have 0 counterplay as well as killer perks. Whispers for example? Being able to instantly know "Ok there's a survivor in this area, now I'll use whispers to track them." Urban Evasion "Ok my crouch is super fast now"
It was never about counterplay. The hatred for decisive was because it rewarded survivors for bad play. That is 100% what NOED does right now. As a killer, your primary objective is to stop the generators from getting done (In the tutorial the Entity literally says "Don't let the light in" referring to the generators), you use hex totems to give survivors a secondary objective to make their primary objective take longer to finish, which is clear the generators.
If you want to stall them with Ruin, or Pig, or Freddy, or whoever you want. You do you, that's fine. But call a spade a spade, NOED is a crutch perk for bad players who don't know how to complete their primary objective, it should not be on the survivors list of chores to cleanse dull totems.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Imagine thinking DS got changed because "enough people complained about it". No it got changed because the devs themselves have said it was unfair and needed a change a very long time ago but it took them quite a while to take action. Survivors have been complaining about noed since the beginning of time and the the only things the devs said about it is the fact it's balanced in its current state and no changes are to be seen in the near future. If it's annoying then you'll just have to deal with it because the perk is perfectly balanced.
Except NOED is a problem for the same reason Decisive was a problem. Forget counter play, let's talk about the nature of each perk.
Decisive strike rewarded Surviviors who failed at their job of keeping the killer looped/escaping when found with an effectively free escape, it was a "you messed up and now you get rewarded for it" perk.
NOED rewards killers who fail at their job of stopping the generators from getting done with a free haste and instakill. It's a "you messed up and now you get rewarded for it" perk.
And don't feed me that "just cleanse totems" line of crap. You know as well as I do that if it was that simple, NOED would be useless. But it isn't. NOED is even unique from other hex perks in that, unless literally every totem is broken, the killer gets to have it. Unlike perks like devour hope, third seal, ruin, haunted ground, thrill of the hunt, or huntresses lullaby, you cannot see that there is a NOED totem. You gamble every time you leave as much as 1 totem dull.
Cleansing dull totems should not be a concern that Surviviors should be having. Forget the counterplay aspect to it, because if we wanna get technical about it, old DS did have counterplay. There were ways you could prevent it/force them to miss It. But the complaint was that the counterplay wasted too much time for the killer.
Funny, when time is wasted for Surviviors, killer mains are ok with it and willing to let Surviviors suffer for actually doing their primarily objectives, but how dare killer mains struggle at all, right? Next thing you know, one Survivior is gonna spawn in the dying state bc the killer mains complained that the game was too frustrating
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@mcNuggets said:
NOED is annoying but hatch escapes, second chance perks and gen rush isn't?
Get a hold of yourself.
The problem is that Surviviors are a group of 4, and naturally one individual Survivior will never beat a killer even if they are of equal skill. Bloodlust, every killer (sans Nurse) having a higher base move speed than Surviviors, killers with range abilities like Huntress, Plague, and Clown, all of these things make single handedly outwitting a killer Difficult to the point of damn near impossibility. The hatch exists for that Survivior that knew what they were doing, but was hindered by their teammates.
Second chance perks? Like decisive strike? That perk was quite literally reworked/nerfed to be next to worthless. Second chances don't exist for Surviviors anymore.
Gen rushing? Doing generators is literally the job of the Surviviors. Would you like it if I called killers who found Surviviors too quickly "kill rushers"? No, I bet you wouldn't. The primary job of the Survivior is to complete generators and open the gates, cleansing totems should be an extra task, but cleansing dull ones is overkill. Why should a Survivior waste their time cleansing dull totems but a killer apparently isn't allowed to get looped for long periods of time (hence the addition of bloodlust)?