NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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@TransverseCaster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1342525#Comment_1342525
"12 seconds for 4 toolboxes is balanced"
Quote of the day. I'm screencapping this lmao
Go for it. Do remember that it's 12 seconds TOTAL, meaning each Survivor saved 3 seconds of their own time and it just totals to 12 seconds when added up.
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@TransverseCaster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1342354#Comment_1342354
All I said was that the the actual cost of bringing tool boxes is not an automatic loss, and you didn't factor in the fact they used their toolboxes to 100% efficiency, nor factor in the opportunity cost of the killer who squandered 1 of his only 4 perks while the survivors used 1 of their 16 slots to counter him. Obv they played to their strengths by not bringing in flashies or kits.
" The cost between games is unrelated to a balance discussion, the toolbox could be a non-consumable just like the perks are and it wouldn't make a difference."
This point had nothing to do in response to opportunity costs. I was just furthering the point that they countered his perk with their add ons.
"By trying to complete that gen so fast they couldn't instead take more power for chases, healing ect. Which they could have done if they instead brought flashlights, keys or medkits."
Again, against most killers their strategy works perfectly because all they have to do is split in different directions and have one guy survive for 20 seconds in order for them to get their bearings. A skilled survivor can make that chase last a few or even several minutes. A very skilled player will get away without even getting hit.
"well they did misplay but that's because of the grouping part not the toolboxes"
Yes. This is what happened. It had nothing to do with toolboxes vs flashlights at that point. They were disorganized. Most SWFs react extremely well to this and already have designated baiters, medics, people to bodyblock, and so on.
Ok?
The thing about opportunity cost was about completing a gen in 17 seconds instead of 20 (where 4 Survivors at 100% efficiency being a 20 second gen is where I'm getting the 20 from).
In a real game you'd get the hypothetical 20 second gen scenario by splitting up. You'd complete 4 gens in 80 seconds for 1 gen per 20 seconds.
Since we are assuming a Survivors is interrupted, it instead becomes 3 gens in 80 seconds for about 27 seconds a gen. The question of balance can then be brought up with if the Killer has the tools to win using the pressure from the hook, among a few other relevant questions. And some Killers are fast enough to simply down them before that first set of gens pop in the first place.
Either way that comes down to the specific Killer and is why I don't call every Killer viable.
But moving on, that isn't quite what this is about. The question isn't if the initial 20 second gens are balanced, but if using toolboxes to reduce it by 3 seconds is balanced. To which the answer would be yes.
Again that's effectively 12 seconds since it's 4 Survivors. 12 seconds for 4 toolboxes is balanced and covered by the opportunity cost of bringing 4 toolboxes.
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Unless you are talking about the ACTUAL rework suggestions, which do more than just slap a condition or 2 on the perk or something.
In which case most of them are sidegrades. Though I'd still expect a lot of them to be nerfs seeing as DS is an overpowered perk.
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1342307#Comment_1342307
No, no, no, no, don't give me the ol' "Conditions added."
That's a straight up nerf, disguised as a rework.
I don't see the disguise. That is explicitly a nerf. No one is pretending it isn't.
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1342305#Comment_1342305
Again, show me proof people did
"You know wiggle progress is capped so you can literally count out loud to about 5(the skill check would appear at 4.8 seconds aka 30% of the 16 second wiggle timer) to dribble them to deny the DS"
Answer. My. Question.
WHO did this?
Anyone that played Killer for an extended period of time.
I did it. I'm sure @Warcrafter4 did it. Various streamers did it. I've had it been done to me pretty much every game back then even though I don't run DS. And I'm sure countless other random players back then did it too.
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@TransverseCaster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1342160#Comment_1342160
1)"The opportunity cost was spent by BRINGING the toolboxes"
Knowing what the result is before hand (like watching a youtube video) sure,but normally the cost is how they are used. If they all survive they keep the boxes, so it's not a loss if they just bring them. The loss is in using or misusing them. So if they use the most efficiently, they increase their chance of escape with no loss. The loss of potential only is incurred if they waste their generator progress, which they did not because they spent all of their boxes on the gen that popped.
2)"The gen popping a few seconds faster is the result of paying that cost."
That's a cost, but there was no better trade off. They made full 100% use of their boxes.
3)"They could have used it on seperate gens, it still would have been the same overall cost in terms of the items."
No, because the potential would have been wasted if one of those gens that had a toolbox working on them was regressed. In hindsight all we can say is that they wasted their boxes because we know they didn't escape, but generally bringing a toolbox incurs no guaranteed loss.
4)"The grouping up was also it's own (smaller) opportunity cost. As was bringing prove thyself."
The most you have implied is that they could have done an alternative. But given that they used the perk and the toolboxes to 100% efficiency despite a perk meant to counter that specific play style we can conclude that gen rushing is still more powerful than most killers can keep pace with and only at the cost of a few thousand blood points per person (assuming they lose, again they lose nothing if they get away). Since Prove Thyself only took one perk slot of the the 16 survivor perk slots, its use with their strategies is proven. It is a high value perk and they can still run DS, BT, Sprint Burst/Dead Hard/Lithe/Balance Landing, Unbreakable, Object of Obsession, etc.
Not only that but you've introduced the concept of scarce use for survivors but not the killer. The opportunity cost of a killer bringing Corrupt Intervention when he only has 4 perk slots vs the survivors 16 slots means he lost far more than they did. They put theirs to use while his was essentially squandered by the survivors putting theirs to use. He was essentially countered by their build.
I don't think you get what an opportunity cost is.
Every perk in the game has an inherent opportunity cost associated with it, because bringing a perk has the downside of not bringing all of the other perks. Same goes for items.
So in this case by bringing toolboxes it means they were unable to have any flashlights or medkits. The cost between games is unrelated to a balance discussion, the toolbox could be a non-consumable just like the perks are and it wouldn't make a difference.
The point I'm making is that the group spent a lot of opportunity cost towards getting that single instant of power.
By trying to complete that gen so fast they couldn't instead take more power for chases, healing ect. Which they could have done if they instead brought flashlights, keys or medkits.
It's not that they misplayed, they had a toolbox and they used it, duh (well they did misplay but that's because of the grouping part not the toolboxes). But just that in order for toolboxes to be worth anything at all, several of them should indeed get you a big change in gen speeds, otherwise there is no point in bringing toolboxes at all.
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@TransverseCaster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1342081#Comment_1342081
The bit about lost opportunity. They don't lose anything inherent in popping that one gen. Against most players all that they need to do to recover and carry on is hold off the killer for 20 seconds. There's always the chance of simply escaping. The fact is, by ganking a single generate with their toolboxes they ensured that their toolboxes progression got used. If they had split up and started working on gens then the odds are high that they would have lost opportunity cost due to the killer regressing gens. This means they actually incurred no loss whatsoever. Their toolboxes were 100% efficient in this scenario.
Oh.
The opportunity cost was spent by BRINGING the toolboxes. The gen popping a few seconds faster is the result of paying that cost. They could have used it on seperate gens, it still would have been the same overall cost in terms of the items.
The grouping up was also it's own (smaller) opportunity cost. As was bringing prove thyself.
That clear things up?
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@metalklok said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1342034#Comment_1342034
"All 4 Survivors sacrificing huge portions of their kit in order to complete that 20% of their objective 12 effective seconds faster than normal (or 3 literal second faster)."
how would you describe "huge portions" because all they did was all bring toolboxes with add ons i wouldn't say that is huge and out of them all only one of them had prove thyself the rest of their perks are meta perks so they didnt really change or sacrifice their builds to finish a gen so quick.
Items are 1/5th of a Survivors kit and while grouping up isn't a perk it does still have an opportunity cost.
Since they all blew their toolboxes on that one gen, that's 25% of their powerbudget (4 items and 1 perk).
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@TransverseCaster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1342034#Comment_1342034
No they don't. All one survivor has to do is last 20 seconds, easily lasting a minute or more in cases of them actually knowing how to idnetify pallets, and the other 3 survivors have already reset. That is standard vs any SWF. The fact that this happened with a corrupt intervention is what is so troubling. It means killer perks designed ad hoc to slow the game for the killer and give them a chance is not working. If he were not using corrupt intervention and the survs not using toolboxes then the result would be the same.
Hold on, what exactly are you objecting to? I said a lot of things.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1341961#Comment_1341961
Explain to me whats balanced about being able to complete 20% of your objective in 17 seconds.
And Ill again point out, this is pretty close to a killer killing a survivor in 25 to 30 seconds, so thats bslanced to right? No issue there? I dont even know if its possible for a killer to do that. Theyd have to spawn directly next to 2 potatos. Hook one, he gets pulled off then use a mori. Bet that it would still take longer than 30.
All 4 Survivors sacrificing huge portions of their kit in order to complete that 20% of their objective 12 effective seconds faster than normal (or 3 literal second faster).
Do remember that Survivors do their objective the fastest at the beginning with the reverse being the case for the Killer. So while the Killer completing 20% of his objective (which would be about 2-3 downs btw) in the first 20 seconds almost never happens, the Killer completing 20% of his objective in the FINAL 20 seconds happens all the time.
So completing a generator in 17 seconds if balanced because it will be the fastest gen they will ever complete that game by far, and by doing so they have hurt their ability to Survive chases, heal, hide from the Killer ect due to losing out on opportunity cost when they did that, meaning that those other gens will take even longer to complete compared to if they had just played normally to begin with.
Like, after a Killer gets their first hook, the repair speed of the Survivors is practically cut in half for as long as they can maintain momentum.
The REAL issue with this only pops up when the Survivors are spread out. If the first Survivor found is decent in a chase then it's not too hard to stall for 20 seconds (which works out to 60 effective seconds of progress) and then 3 gens pop a few seconds after that first hook and the Killer goes on reddit to complain about it.
But that's saying Survivors getting so much progress so quickly with no particular perks required is a problem. What happened here isn't even close to that and the issue I brought up above wouldn't even really be solved by toolbox nerfs or whatever and could potentially not even be a problem in the first place (due to the snowball thing I brought up), especially when you take into account Killer powers (most of them anyways).
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While you are bringing up a real issue, I don't think it's the issue you think you are.
Basically, most Survivor perks are either amazing or varying degrees of bad.
Killer perks are much less polarized, with more perks that are simply good and not amazing.
Basically, strong Survivor perks tend to be stronger than strong Killer perks. However the Killers have more strong perks in the first place.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1341933#Comment_1341933
Well i agree they went about this stupidly, i think everyones agreed on that.
I didnt say it was op, i said ######### is broken.
As in it's a non-balance issue?
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1341768#Comment_1341768
Who quit and is whining? Youre talking to the wrong one dude 😂 and yeah im fully aware this could have been much worse if they had split up, that doesnt refute tge fact that being able to do 1 gen in 17 secs is broken af. Pointing out a flaw in tge game isnt whining. Only immature people think that way. Stop it.
17 seconds is only 3 seconds faster than normal efficiency. All of their stacked speedups and ideal conditions and all they get out of it is 3 measly seconds.
They could have instead ran more second chance perks and ran flashlights and medkits for extra safety in a chase. But instead they decided to group up and use toolboxes and gen repair perks. All of that and it's only saving, 3 seconds. That's an effective 12 second time save over 4 Survivors by the way.
You know what is more effective than that? Resilience on a single Survivor. Specifically the perk saves 33 seconds over 5 gens. That's massive compared to just 12 seconds on a single gen.
Plus remember, no mechanic is inherently overpowered, it's all relative. For example, while mori's are OP, Devour Hope which eventually uses the same mechanic is not.
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Addons posted. Mainly focused on giving the clone more on-hit effects.
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@MyersRulz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1341136#Comment_1341136
And i would agree with you if the definition of the words was on debate, but its pretty darn clear that what people are debating here is more focused on game mechanics, fairness, balance, etc. So to me when people use the dictionary card it feels that they just want to win the argument rather than discuss it.
Look. I just want people to use the terms right.
This has came up in the past and makes it much harder to discuss this sort of thing.
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They consumed 4 toolboxes and used a perk and took 68 seconds worth of time (17*4) to complete a single gen in a way that they can't do to the remaining 4 gens even if they were uninterrupted.
When you stack several effects towards a singular instant of power, it BETTER be powerful.
It's like saying heal speeds are too fast because someone with NOLB, We'll make it Botany and a medkit could heal a Survivor with leader in only a few seconds.
Sure if they could just do that whenever it would be a problem, but they can't, not even close. So it's fine. Like how slow would it need to be to be balanced?
18 seconds? 19? 20?
At 20 seconds they'd be spending 80 seconds worth of time. Meaning that 4 Survivors working on seperate gens with nothing would be making progress as fast as the Survivors working together and stacking several gen speed increases.
That's just not right.
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@MyersRulz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1341041#Comment_1341041
I see alot of people here playing the dictionary card to prove their point and thats fine dont get me wrong but i think when we are talking about "Casual" or "Competitive" we dont really mean the literal sense of those words. I think its pretty evident that what most here mean is competitive in a "esports tournament ready" way.
Yes but talking about competitive in terms of esports makes it hard to talk about it in terms of a competition as opposed to cooperative.
It's just easier to communicate a variety of ideas if we all stick to the proper definitions.
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@ZerLukas said:
DBD has competitive aspects but it can't be defined as competitive for a few reasons:
1) No defined win condition - that's the biggest thing that prevents DBD from being called competitive. Like what's the final goal of the game? To get a pip? To escape/kill? To get bloodpoints? Everyone can define that for themselves and that's great on casual level as DBD can attract different people. But that's not how competitive games work.
2) Too many thing that completely turn the table balance wise. Keys and mori come to mind first.
3) Too much RNG. Unpredictability can make a game fun but it definiely doesn't make it competitive as the luck factor is way too strong.
Of course a lot of that can be done by the community. The community can define a clear win and loss conditions and can ban some unbalanced stuff. They even can limit the selection of maps to try and leave out only those that are least affected by the RNG.
Then the game will become competitive but only within the circle that will treat it as such. But you can't expect every single player or even the majority of players to treat it that way.
So no, it's a casual game with competitive aspects.
The game defines the win conditions in it's tutorial in plain English.
Survivors have to escape
Killers have to kill the Survivors before they can
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The opposite of competitive is not casual, it's cooperative.
The opposite of casual is not competitive, it's hardcore.
Mario party is a casual competitive game
League of legends is a hardcore competitive game
Animal crossing is a casual cooperative game
Dark Souls is a hardcore cooperative game (give or take a few mechanics involving optional PvP)
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Nightshift can't happen as the devs specifically want to have control over the lighting.
Existing content has already been outright removed for this reason.
In any case, you need to define which locations qualify as a "strategic location". Like you mentioned next to windows and drop points, but where else? In front of pallets?
Some other questions to answer:
What does an untriggered grave look like from a Survivor PoV?
What are the Killers base stats?
How can the Killer interact with a Survivor that has triggered the grave?
How long does the climb out action take?
How strong is the dirt piles haste effect?
How long does it take to dig a grave?
Does dumping a dirt pile slow the Killer down? If so by how much and for how long? Does carrying a dirt pile have any downside?
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Well obviously to stop him from injuri-hold on a sec.
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@MiniPisa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1338829#Comment_1338829
Tbh most Wendigos in films/tv shows and games look and act the same (For example - Supernatural, Until Dawn and the Descent) That's why I find the Hag so.... poorly designed... I just wish they'd remove the fact that she even is one and give us a more badass killer that matches up to the Myth
I mean, mechanically she's great. But she doesn't look or act like what I'd think a wendigo does from the myths.
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Btw, there are 4 perk interactions I'm a bit unsure about.
Deathbound
Make Your Choice
Devour Hope
I'm All Ears.
Specifically while for the most the perk copying aspect is pretty clear: TR perks, on-vault perks and haste effects work. On hit, on pickup, on hook and on break action perks don't work. Passive global perks are redundant and don't work. Tracking perks sort of work but only aura reading actually helps the clone.
So for Deathbound, devour hope and Make Your Choice, I basically have 3 options:
- The perks activate when the Survivor is 32 meters away from the main Killer. This makes it work exactly like every other Killer in the game, but is inconsistent with the other perk interactions (and those interactions are important for preventing those perks from being a givaway for the clone)
- The perks activate then the Survivor is 32 meters away from the main Killer AND the Clone. This is perfectly consistent if we treat the perks conditions as not discriminating between which Killer is near the Survivor, and makes us not have to worry about abuse. However this makes the Clone negative utility for those perks.
- The perk activates when the Survivor is 32 meters away from the main Killer OR the Clone. This is also consistent if we treat the perks condition as being near the Killer with the perk. Since both the main Killer and the clone have their own copy of the perk they can both be triggered independently. This has the downside of being abusable for obvious reasons, especially for Make Your Choice.
As for I'm all ears, there is a similar issue but this time it's with the cooldown. Again we have 3 options:
- Being near the clone doesn't by itself let the perk activate. Again, inconsistent with the other perk interactions.
- The clone can activate the perk and has it's own personal cooldown. This is the most consistent but might be frustrating to utilize in practice.
- The clone can activate the perk and has a shared cooldown with the main Killer. Also can be consistent, but also might be frustrating for entirely different reasons, but also isn't as dangerous of a precedent.
Please give your thoughts on this dilemma.
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@Erohnic your perks have arrived.
Addons are coming shortly.
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Added perks.
First is on-hit Oblivious. Forcibly removes you from the chase so you can take advantage of the effect immediately and lasts 60 seconds because Oblivious on someone you just hit isn't particularly strong without lasting for awhile, so the duration is necessary.
Second is a perk that makes it harder to interpret the terror radius, keeping it there after you've already left and preventing the Survivor from determining if your just somewhat close or right on top of them.
Third is a tracking perk that is primarily for synergies. But innately has the effect of revealing Survivors you hit with a basic attack (because Survivors scream as an on-hit effect). Since screaming Survivors already have a known location, there is no need for a cooldown.
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@Erohnic said:
I really would like to see the perks for this
You got it. Working on it as we speak
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@APoipleTurtle said:
Minor nitpick, but does this character have to be a Wendigo? We already have this mythical archetype in DbD (Hag).
Despite the fact that it got its name from the Dungeons and Dragons monster, the Demogorgon also fits quite closely with many of the more contemporary takes on the Wendigo, despite it never having been human.
Hag is a Wendigo? Huh.
@MiniPisa said:
I really want a wendigo in this game, so I support any ideas regarding one.. but APoipleTurtle's comment is right, the hag is one :/
Honestly, I wouldn't mind 2 wendigos as long as the new one would look completely different - more like Until Dawn. Or even better, just change the hag's lore.. I honestly didn't know she was a wendigo until I did research, she just looks like such a poor example of one they might as well just change it and add in a more accurate one.
I actually got the idea from watching Supernatural, but I'm aware of the Until Dawn version as well (and they were pretty similar too).
In particular I was fascinated by the idea of a creature that uses careful deception to lure it's victims.
Mechanically I couldn't quite make that happen without doing something extremely complicated. But I could do the reverse for the same (thematic) result. Hence a Killer that spits out clones of itself.
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one of the guys in one of the games didn't have spine chill. So your argument is invalid and you're now officially trash somehow /s
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Adrenaline does not belong on that list.
A perk that activates in response to completing a major chunk of your primary objective is as far as it gets from rewarding you for being bad.
Also dead hard. It triggers on demand, so it's rewarding reflex.
DS sure, Unbreakable debatable because you are still worse off compared to if you weren't slugged.
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@Ikalx said:
What NuclearBurrito said is sound advice tbh. Noed is basically the end to altruistic actions at that point, and if you do them, be (even more) prepared to not leave alive. It's a bit sucky but the reality is if you turn back at that point, you shouldn't really complain about Noed.
If I was going to rework it, I'd say limit it to x number of downs or being exposed for x amount of time, buuut you'd have to balance that by making it not a hex perk, so at that point...you're making it either more difficult to counter, or encouraging people to just hide in the map somewhere.
It used to be time based and was worse (for the game).
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Better way to disable the perk: Leave
Whenever I use NOED and get kills with it, it's always because the Survivors keep playing altruistically after the gates are opened/99%ed or whatever.
Don't try and save the 1 guy on the hook. Just leave the damn trial and get a 3 man escape.
That's what I do as a Survivor and I never die to NOED unless I'm the first one found in the endgame.
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@GreenPufferFish said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1333155#Comment_1333155
not really since it takes 30 seconds of being broken then you heal it is evenj sllwer than self care and can only be used once a match
It's delayed but it's still instant.
Self care is 32 seconds of standing still doing a channel. So self care takes 32 seconds.
Second wind just automatically heals you after 30 seconds has past. So while the heal may only happen once you've waited 30 seconds, it isn't taking up that time. So you're spent 0 seconds on healing yourself.
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I get ruin, but why would I leave in response to a doctor buff?
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@Saitamfed said:
It has many downsides.
A lot of people run self-care and even if you unhook them, they start self-caring for 0.5 secs, wich means the perk won't be active.
If you're chased the first then the perk use get reduced to one, if you're being camped or tunneled then you won't have any use of it. Since you only had two times to use it.
Even if you get unhooked, there is a small chance that you will run into the killer in less than 30 seconds. So if the killer downs you in less than 30 seconds, the perk becomes disabled.
To be fair. There are only 2 perks that can help if you are being faced camped.
And BT/DS are neither of them.
I'm talking about camaraderie and Kindred. Because all other perks in the game require you to actually be unhooked or otherwise not be on the hook. Or they just don't do anything anyways.
But like the point is that a perk not working if you are camped to death really doesn't say much.
That's like saying all creatures are bad in MTG because they die to removal.
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@GreenPufferFish said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/158607/why-do-people-say-second-wind-is-bad
because so much work for the slowest heal in the game
It's an instant heal tho.
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Wiggling does nothing. You want to go towards obstacles such that the chain has to go through them.
This doesn't actually slow down the pull, but it makes the chain break faster.
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You mean DS
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@johnmwarner said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1332990#Comment_1332990
So then No Mither isn’t really that hard of mode since you start with the ability to get hit 4 times and it takes it down to 3
Pretty much.
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@johnmwarner said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1332944#Comment_1332944
This, it is a hard mode perk but it’s hard mode for your entire team. Yes you draw attention, for one hit! Then the rest of the team has to give up what they’re doing to unhook you. At its most basic the killer had to get 12 hooks to kill everyone, that’s 24 M1 hits. As no Mither you take away 3 of those hits, meaning you make the killers job 12% easier. That isn’t hard mode for you it’s the whole team
Not quite. You need to earn 8 of those hits by healing, which doesn't always happen and cannot just be assumed.
So it really is 16 which then goes down to 15.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1332443#Comment_1332443
standing still is a mindgame...how exactly?
every other killer can fake their power or hide their red light, spirit can hid her red light sure but standing still doesn't classify as a mindgame, it classifies as standing perfectly still, not even using M2 to make you think she's phasing just standing still
You say others don't understand what a mindgame is, but you are using the literal action to draw the line at what is or is not a mindgame.
Something is a mindgame when one player has to make a prediction, based on what they think the other player would predict they would do.
So in this case, the Spirit standing still is a mindgame because they are predicting that the Survivor is predicting that the Spirit is phasing. And if the Spirit actually IS phasing then it's the same deal but the other way around.
You might try and say that a mindgame requires some form of deception. However deception in the traditional sense doesn't really exist between known enemies in this case.
This is because all of the possible actions the other player could take as well as their motivations for taking each actions are known in advance to all players. So while you can deny information, you cannot give false information.
For example: In a red glow mindgame, while you can avoid showing the red glow by turning around. You cannot have a red glow appear anywhere other than where you are. Since the Survivor knows this, they can plan accordingly, and so long as they don't try to infer information the red glow doesn't actually provide (such as the direction the Killer is walking) they will never draw a false conclusion using the red glow no matter how well you mindgame.
They can still trip up, but that's because at some point they have to make a prediction due to insufficient information. Which is where you can win the mindgame by being unpredictable.
Broken down like this all mindgames are identical. They differ in execution of course but not in structure.
Each player has some amount of information that narrows down what each player can and cannot do
Each player has options in order to deal with any but not every option the other player can do
Each player will preform an action to counter what they think the other player will do
Someone ends up being right and "wins" the mindgame
The actual substance of the "action" is irrelevant. If it happens to mean standing perfectly still then so be it, the important part is the prediction.
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@Poweas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1332944#Comment_1332944
It does provide a benefit: infinite recovery from dying state.
Yeah I know. But the telegraph makes the effect useless. Hence the point of this thread.
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@Poweas said:
Why hide it? Isn't it supposed to be a hard mode perk?
I really don't get why we need or want a hardmode perk.
Not healing isn't something you need a perk for. If you want a self imposed challenge around it then just refuse to let anyone heal you.
Heck if you don't like the starting healthy part, then if the Killer hits you just let him get the 2nd hit.
So it really doesn't allow you to preform any challenge that you can't already do with self imposed rules on a basekit Survivor. Thus we may as well treat it like it's an actual perk that's supposed to provide a tangible benefit at some point.
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Due to the existence of new perks, a lack of blood trails is no longer a givaway we need to worry about.
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By making them start the trial healthy and not having the broken symbol appear for the Killer in general. Also by making the iron will effect 100%.
So once you eventually do become injured you can't heal up again, but the Killer can't tell the difference between being unable to heal up again and you having the option to but choosing not to.
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@Seiko300 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331545#Comment_1331545
This is another thing I realized when I was thinking about it in retrospect, since I don't actually run the perk often myself. Second Wind is basically lying about being a health-sustain perk you're right it is an anti-tunneling perk. But here's the thing, what if you're not being tunneled? For most of my games as a survivor this is the case and that would means for most of my games this would be a wasted perk slot.
Because one of the conditions is being unhooked, that means you have to be hooked to get it to work, which means you'll only ever get it to work twice in one game because everybody knows that your third hook is your death hook. That just sucks by comparison, when I can use self-care an infinite number of times or even inner strength there are five totems on the map.
Not to mention, even with the tier 3 version of the perk it still takes an entire 30 seconds to activate, when I've got Inner Strength over here that activates in 8. That's way more reliable to cleanse a totem and then after you're unhooked find a locker and hop into it and get out already full in less than 10 seconds (for T2 / T3).
And fine, I'll give credit where credit is due: using second wind can allow you to get healed while performing other critical actions like saving someone else, repairing a generator, cleansing a hex, etc, and not wasting any time having someone heal you or (even finding a locker on certain maps which can be more difficult than others) or if a killer is tunneling you right off the hook and you can't jump into a locker or self-care sure you'd want second wind.
But it's just not worth it, those are such situational benefits for that many hoops to jump through. It is far more trouble to use the perk than it is actually worth, and I think that's what it comes down to.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1330871#Comment_1330871
This is what really gets me about the perk.
It's important to note that just a few small changes would actually make second wind worth running, but in its current state no thanks. I'd take Inner Strength over Second Wind any day of the week.
The thing about the unhook requirement isn't as problematic as you'd think.
The most common reason for why you'd never be hooked is simply that the Killer never committed to chasing you, maybe because you hid but that's not really important.
But the point is that most of the time, a Killer will injure you and then follow up to actually down you for good.
Obviously this is not exclusively the case, but I'd say this holds about 70% of the time. Yeah I know the 30% is significant but whatever.
Point is, if you become injured you will probably also be hooked. So the unhooked requirement overlaps with the being injured condition in the first place. Making the limited use nature of the perk a bit less problematic.
Plus if you aren't being hooked then there really isn't a problem anyways.
And then when it comes to the 30 second time it takes. You really shouldn't think of it as a heal that takes 30 seconds. It's more accurate to think of it as a 30 second vulnerability period going along with a 0 second heal.
Because you aren't actually doing any kind of healing action during that time.
Inner strength may only take 8 second, but that's still 8 seconds more than second wind takes.
The REAL condition is the healing someone else requirement. Which again: annoying and inconsistent if you don't run healing perks, trivial if you do.
You run second wind if you already are running healing perks for whatever reason. If you do not run those perks then you shouldn't run second wind by itself.
Because I DO run healing perks (and did so before second wind even existed) I run second wind and get plenty of use out of it.
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@Erohnic said:
I like the ide, but I think the clone might need a longer cool down considering it can actually do damage to survivors.
No it can't. I explicitly said their attacks do no damage. They just apply a bunch of status effects and grant aura reading.
"If a Survivor is hit by the clone they will take no damage"
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A Killer very much focused on deception. Messing with ally tracking would be cool, but is also impractical due to the existance of SWF. So instead making it harder to tell if the "Killer" chasing you is the real thing or not is the next best thing.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1330904#Comment_1330904
Because its all down to the details and not a matter of "Does the game see you as in a chase, then out of a chase". If the killer spots multiple people at the same time, but only goes after 1... did the others win a chase even though they just passed infront of the killer's screen and were never actually chased? If Legion uses his power to stab 4 ppl...did 3 ppl win a chase?
In the first case yes, in the second case not sure but I don't think so.
Like I said, chases you win vs chases you lose is a statistic the game tracks. So regardless of what you think a won chase SHOULD be, that won't change what a won chase actually is.
And yes it matters, because this knowledge is important for anyone trying to maximize their evader emblem.
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I run the perk personally.
It's good so long as you also run either We'll make it or Autodidact.
If your build happens to include one of those 2 perks then you're good and this perk will work well for you.
If you don't then I wouldn't run one of them just for the sake of a combo.
Basically for each perk:
We'll make it let's you heal under hook very efficiently. Thus making it very easy to proc second Wind after an unhook.
Meanwhile while Autodidact is super hard to get to 5 stacks. For this combo we are only interested in how it interacts with the first heal. Since the first 2 skill checks remove progress, that means you can still proc second wind even if another player comes to help or of they self cared for a bit before you got there.
Also progress from skill checks DOES count towards the perk. So don't worry about that being a problem for the 2nd proc.
Since I already like running an altruistic build, this perk fits in nicely with my other perks. Which is exactly the niche the perk fills.
You heal others super fast and the perk means those without faster healing perks aren't wasting time healing you back.
The only similar alternative perk is solidarity, which is more repeatable but less effective.