MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202660#Comment_3202660
Brother you'd see BT in effect basically every game, and even when it wasn't in game it had an effect of making killers waiting out.
OTR on the other hand? Most people go out of their way to get it activated which is time spent not on gens and even if they do end up escaping chase they still need to mend, which is more time spent not on gens. Does it have its moments? Yes. Which is pretty much what Unbreakable will be.
Basically useless the majority of the time, but when its effects kick in it can mean the difference between some one dying and getting away
Wdym go out of their way? They do the same thing they did with BT, run into the killer on purpose and body block.
I see OTR a lot idk why you aren't.
Killer can't wait out 80 seconds so they hit you and give you a speed boost, which is better than letting them wait it out.
BT made you mend too so I don't see your point there.
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@D4RK1 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202593#Comment_3202593
I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm trying to show you what you are implying by what you are saying.
Sorry, but just because something can be part of the win condition doesn't mean that it isn't toxic and unhealthy for the game and is a completely invalid argument considering that penalties and rules can be adjusted.
For example, Slugging is currently also a very effective strategy for killer, especially if they want a 4 kill and don't want hatch to spawn, the killer can just not hook and then take their time finding the last survivor, which they usually do before all other survivors die. BHVR's most recent update has stated that they're looking to put a stop to slugging by allowing all survivors to eventually fully recover. So how come they're doing this if trying to win isn't toxic? I mean eventually slugged survivors will die, so it clearly isn't toxic to slug down an entire Survivor team and leave them to bleed out on the floor because as killer you are fulfilling the win conditions. BHVR is also looking to implement a "Final Mori" system so killers can't just slug the entire team like this.
Again, I'm pointing out an issue with the game and you're trying to brush it off and leave it unaddressed for... whatever reason?
I disagree, you're putting words in my mouth.
They're not changing it because its toxic. They don't do changes because they're toxic otherwise t-bagging and waiting at the gate would be disabled/punished.
I never brushed off your entire suggestion, I just pointed out that these things aren't toxic or not valid as put in your title.
Again, unfun and toxic are 2 different things.
You're taking offense to something I never said.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202440#Comment_3202440
Neither is OTR
And even then I can count on one hand the amount of times I've seen OTR actually make a difference. BT on the other hand? Saved countless people before it was made base-kit.
yeah being meta for years vs a few months will do that.
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@D4RK1 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202527#Comment_3202527
Oh I see, so you're saying that an issue that pushes players away from the game should just... continue unaddressed? I mean you're saying that joining a full team will solve everything, but if a player gets singled out and Facecamped/Tunneled at 5 Gens, it seems like that problem is still a problem. Especially if we're dealing with a Facecamping Bubba.
You really like putting word in peoples mouth to try and twist their meaning huh?
No I didn't say any of that. My original comment just said trying to win isn't toxic with an example to compare.
Killing survivors is the win condition. The most efficient way to do that currently is tunneling. Camping preys on altruism to do the same. Trying to win isn't toxic, simple as that.
Saying you want to change something because it's unfun is different from calling it "toxic and not a valid way to play the game".
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@D4RK1 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202436#Comment_3202436
Relay info? like if Kindred was a global ability? Or do you mean like Voice Chat which isn't a part of the base game? Again, are you saying that Solo Queue should just be removed? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying and that's a pretty surefire way to kill the game. Or are you saying that people should just play killer if they don't want to be facecamped and tunneled from the beginning of a game? Because that would slow down queue time for killers quite a lot. I don't believe i ever said I want 100% uptime during a match as Survivor or that being on hook isn't part of the gameplay loop. But what I am saying is that maybe the game should do more to de-incentivize behaviors that put players off from the game.
And where does the game define 2k as a draw? Or even that killing survivors is winning? Last I checked, if you somehow knocked out all 4 survivors within the first 5 minutes of the game and sacrificed them all, you'd get a "The Entity Hungers" as a killer and probably lose Killer Stage progress for it. Maybe you can point out where the game officially defines winning?
Sounds like I'm suggesting ways to decrease volatility in the game and make it more inviting for new and old players alike, leaving the actual mechanics alone, but just adding incentive for healthy behaviors and de-incentivizing toxic behaviors. Meanwhile you're here insisting that only competitive play should exist? If you can't play Survivor well, don't even try until you get good? Something along those lines?
"Meanwhile you're here insisting that only competitive play should exist? If you can't play Survivor well, don't even try until you get good? Something along those lines?"
I didn't say that at all. I said if you personally don't like it, go get a team. Otherwise you have to deal with random teammates because they're random.
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@D4RK1 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202436#Comment_3202436
Relay info? like if Kindred was a global ability? Or do you mean like Voice Chat which isn't a part of the base game? Again, are you saying that Solo Queue should just be removed? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying and that's a pretty surefire way to kill the game. Or are you saying that people should just play killer if they don't want to be facecamped and tunneled from the beginning of a game? Because that would slow down queue time for killers quite a lot. I don't believe i ever said I want 100% uptime during a match as Survivor or that being on hook isn't part of the gameplay loop. But what I am saying is that maybe the game should do more to de-incentivize behaviors that put players off from the game.
And where does the game define 2k as a draw? Or even that killing survivors is winning? Last I checked, if you somehow knocked out all 4 survivors within the first 5 minutes of the game and sacrificed them all, you'd get a "The Entity Hungers" as a killer and probably lose Killer Stage progress for it. Maybe you can point out where the game officially defines winning?
Sounds like I'm suggesting ways to decrease volatility in the game and make it more inviting for new and old players alike, leaving the actual mechanics alone, but just adding incentive for healthy behaviors and de-incentivizing toxic behaviors. Meanwhile you're here insisting that only competitive play should exist? If you can't play Survivor well, don't even try until you get good? Something along those lines?
"where does the game define 2k as a draw"
The devs did when they talked about MMR. The "entity displeased" is for grades, which is just for monthly rewards.
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@D4RK1 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202436#Comment_3202436
Relay info? like if Kindred was a global ability? Or do you mean like Voice Chat which isn't a part of the base game? Again, are you saying that Solo Queue should just be removed? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying and that's a pretty surefire way to kill the game. Or are you saying that people should just play killer if they don't want to be facecamped and tunneled from the beginning of a game? Because that would slow down queue time for killers quite a lot. I don't believe i ever said I want 100% uptime during a match as Survivor or that being on hook isn't part of the gameplay loop. But what I am saying is that maybe the game should do more to de-incentivize behaviors that put players off from the game.
And where does the game define 2k as a draw? Or even that killing survivors is winning? Last I checked, if you somehow knocked out all 4 survivors within the first 5 minutes of the game and sacrificed them all, you'd get a "The Entity Hungers" as a killer and probably lose Killer Stage progress for it. Maybe you can point out where the game officially defines winning?
Sounds like I'm suggesting ways to decrease volatility in the game and make it more inviting for new and old players alike, leaving the actual mechanics alone, but just adding incentive for healthy behaviors and de-incentivizing toxic behaviors. Meanwhile you're here insisting that only competitive play should exist? If you can't play Survivor well, don't even try until you get good? Something along those lines?
"relay info if you have the ability"
"if you have the ability"
Comms aren't part of the basegame, but you're still able to use them and they're widely used. Its silly to act like its not a major part of the SWF vs Solo gap and affects the game.
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@LordRegal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201021#Comment_3201021
That still hurts the situation that Apostrophe added in, where he likes using the instadown but not the "remove player from the game" mechanic. That being said, I still personally am most concerned by the fact that it makes Devour less fun even if its inherent power isn't lessened.
Give a different prompt for hooking then to instafice the survivor in that case, or hive a hook interaction to start it.
I'm not to concerned about the power level, at most its only slightly better/worse, if even that. I'm also concerned mainly with the spectacle being gone.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201107#Comment_3201107
yeah and OTR is the most ran perk right?
right?
Neither was BT before the patch. What's your point?
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@D4RK1 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201046#Comment_3201046
So i know you think you're making a valid point by likening these things, but you're really not for a number of reasons. The first and foremost reason is that a Killer will eventually find and chase at least 1 Survivor throughout the course of the game and whether or not that Survivor goes down, the Killer is playing throughout the game. Technically speaking, the Killer is still "playing" while Facecamping and/or Tunneling. On the other hand, a Survivor that gets Tunneled out or Facecamped is in fact NOT playing anymore and their time has just been wasted for something they cannot control.
On the subject of control, even if a full Survivor team is Genrushing/Gencamping the killer in fact has many options at their disposal. The first is to tighten their patrol path to easy to patrol Gens and keeping those from popping. There are several games as Killer where I've won because the Survivors decided they would do all the outer gens and leave the 3 easiest to patrol Gens for the end. There are also several games as Survivor where we're on 2 Gens and I 99 one of the easier Gens so that I can then finish one of the harder gens then pop it, but some other Survivor comes along and pops the 99'd gen and now the Killer has an easy time defending every one of the last 3 Gens at once.
Also, what do you define as "winning" the game? 4 Kills? I mean after all can you call it a win if any ONE of your opponents leaves? In which case we should also remove Hatch because it's like catchup in a racing game, the Survivors are at a Disadvantage, but now suddenly they have an easy way to clutch the game! 3 Kills? Well that's a weird arbitrary number, how come it's a win when there are 4 Survivors total and you only got 3 of them? Shouldn't the Killer then be punished for letting any one of them live? Not to mention, the Survivors are in Co-Op and everything each Survivor does affects the whole team so all Survivors should benefit if ANY survivor survives, 'cause then the Survivors win! But in the end, if you believe 4k or 3k means you win, this doesn't affect any of that really. All it does is affect Blood Points and Stage progressions, so you can Tunnel and Camp all you want, you'll just get reduced BP and Stage Progression.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201124#Comment_3201124
I can tell you haven't read the post at all. The point made here is that Killers who do minimal work (Facecamping and Tunneling from the beginning of the game) should not be rewarded for doing so. Is it effective? Questionably, depending on the Survivors you're facing, but my post isn't really about whether or not it's effective. It's about actually letting Survivors have fun and incentivizing it/compensating players who get Facecamped/Tunneled early on for no reason. Sorry but it's pretty ridiculous when a Wraith hunts down a random Steve for the entirety of the game despite all other players trying to body block even while injured for said Steve and the Wraith just ignores the other players they've downed for... viability I guess?
Being on hook is part of the intended core survivor gameplay loop, just because you don't like that aspect it doesn't mean you're not playing the game while its happening. Especially if we're talking about "technically". You can look around, scout out the map, relay info if you have the ability, use hook perks ect. If you don't like it don't que up. If you want 100% uptime during the match play killer.
Part of a team based game, if you want your teammates to do a certain thing each time get a SWF.
Doesn't matter what I define as winning. The game defines winning as killing survivors, with a 2k being a draw so anything above that is a win. Camping and tunneling help you get kills, therefore they help you win.
So I know you think you're making a valid point, but you're really not.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200844#Comment_3200844
Yeah but its main use became basekit, its most likely gonna be like when BT had its effects become basekit its usage dropped quite a bit
Also if theyre going down directly under a pallet, 9/10 they could of simply dropped the pallet. Not to mention that for Unbreakable to actually have an effect here, some one else has to be around.
Its super situational, this really aint gonna be a problem
BT didn't get dropped just because it's basekit.
BT got dropped because Off The Record is better.
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@mizark3 said:
A Mercy or Mori prompt could fit that quite nicely. Mercy gives the Survivor Hatch (and all related BP/challenge/achievement rewards associated) and Mori just Moris them.
Edit: Plus I like alliteration so MERCY or MORI sounds cool.
not having to look for hatch on mothers dwelling and RPD if I want to mercy? Please.
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Yes please. Unless you're gonna let us mori all 4 survivors basekit, H:DH should keep the mori. Leave the instant sacrifice in as well honestly.
Rancor already exposed the obsession so they literally just removed an aspect of it.
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Gencampign and Rushing are not legitimate ways to play and toxic to the game.
Yeah no I don't agree with either statement. Doing the objective is doing the objective.
It's not toxic to try and win the game.
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@MrT1412 said:
This is technically a buff for most killers, since most moris take much longer than just hooking the survivor, but it is kinda sad that we're not gonna be able to do multiple moris in a match anymore.
Just make it do both. You can mori the survivor or hook them and instafice, best of both.
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@shiroo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3189654#Comment_3189654
"But if you're not going to listen to anyone besides those in your own echo chamber there's not much to say."
"I can easily say the people complaining about solo que are just entitled survivor mains that need to git gud if I want to be a brick wall.
There's no point in opening a conversation if you're only going to listen to the side that already agrees with you and discredit everyone else."
???
How ironic since that is exactly what you are doing 😂
Where?
I'm saying go out and find more examples and information like I did on top of my own experience and reasoning.
They discredited everyone, including me, by saying "anyone who thinks its fine is a killer main and doesn't know what they're talking about."
What's the point in even talking to someone with that attitude? They already made up their mind before the conversation even started.
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@ElodieSimp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3192435#Comment_3192435
But that's not what we're seeing.
Not what who's seeing where?
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a 50% overall kill rate doesn't work because low skill survivors, which is the majority, die way too much.
This is why the stats always show killers like Pig and Pinhead with super high kill rates.
So unless you want to have killer be unplayable at anything resembling skilled play, no we should not have a 50% overall Kill rate. It should be higher.
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This is the kill rate form the same community where Pig and Pinhead dominate most of the players.
The kill rate is not indicative of people who are actually good at the game.
Survivor is fine. The vast majority of the killer roster still loses with good players in the match.
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@humanbeing1704 said:
matches that feel fair from the moment they begin
map offerings usually hamper this tbh
Map design in general hamper this.
Offerings just make it worse.
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I dislike any "in a single match" on either side. All or nothing tied to progression on a limited time thing just does not sit well with me.
As for my matches, idc. I just play the match, if you get your challenge done or not doesn't impact me, I don't even know if you're running it or not.
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Yeah they really shouldn't have added the outside to the maps. It really only got about 10-15% smaller taking those into account.
It's still way too big.
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"Does the game feel more balanced now?"
Yes.
Please keep in mind this takes into account all skill brackets, not just good players.
As we know bad players get killed, very easily. Mid and high tier gameplay need to balance it out.
The total kill rate should be decently higher than 50% to compensate for the slaughter that is low tier games.
Ideally we would get kill rate breakdowns for different skill brackets though.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3189684#Comment_3189684
Probably because it's not that important. SWFs arnt nearly that unstoppable as people make them out to be. Just because they're SWFs. Doesn't make everyone a god looper. You come across that VERY rarely.
The true strength and most important part of SWF, is weeding out weaker players and voicing coordination.
Its not that solo que is weak, because 4 good solos are really strong. Is that solo que means your at risk of getting bad teammates or teammates with bad game sense.
You can make up for bad game sense by telling them what to do, that option is not available in solo. You can choose to not play with weaker players in SWF, that option is not available in solo.
Built in pings/coms/icons can help the game sense issue, you can't really do anything about getting weak teammates every so often.
Overall, it might be fine, but there can be improvements.
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@Araphex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3189657#Comment_3189657
Well, when 3 teammates die while 4 to 3 gens still need to be done, it's kind of hard to win at that point. I'm mediocre at looping, which is harder to do on console with a controller. But still I manage to escape chases more often than going down. But I wish they'd let the hatch count as a win because I end up getting that more often then just giving up.
Yeah those games are really hard to win. My advice there would be to intentionally get chased to try and get as much time for your team as possible. Low Skill brackets means no Nurse/Blight so you should be able to loop a decent amount of time if not the entire match, especially with how many pallets and strong loops are in the recent maps + reworks.
You might have to improve your looping a bit. Being a good looper is, imo, the single most important skill in solo. Regardless of how bad your team is at looping, they can hold M1 on a gen while you have the killer's attention.
Sometimes, there's nothing you can do if you just get potatoes/babies to the point they don't even do gens, but that's something that can never be fixed from a game dev perspective.
Hatch being a "win" leads to problems. Like the corner crouching Claudette that didn't touch a gen all game shouldn't be getting seen as skillful and make it into higher MMR matches when she clearly cant play the game. That's a hard one to work around.
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@Araphex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3189596#Comment_3189596
They are, but they're also higher MMR. Mid and low MMR is a struggle. I play both sides equally and just gave up on survivor now because I'm tired of my teammates running around like chickens with their heads cut off every single match, throwing the game. None of them know how to loop the killer and just because I get hatch doesn't mean my MMR is increasing since it doesn't count as a win. I wish they'd make it count as a win, especially since there are perks dedicated to helping a survivor find the hatch. I think that'd help a lot for those of us who are decent or skilled players move up instead of being stuck in a never-ending cycle of bad games.
I play both sides and my solo matches are fine for the most part.
I really don't think I'm in high MMR.
Yes teammates can be bad, but that's part of any team based game. It doesn't mean the games unbalanced, it just means people are dumb or just not good at the game, which isn't news.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3189596#Comment_3189596
You mean youtubers, people who choose the matches they want to put online. Why would they just post matches where they're always losing?
youtube, twitch, livestreams, forums. Its all available. People win and lose all the time across the platforms, as is normal.
But if you're not going to listen to anyone besides those in your own echo chamber there's not much to say.
Like I said, that's the kill rate across the whole game. We know that in lower skill matches the kill rate is very very high. To balance it out, the kill rates for mid and high MMR have to be quite a bit lower.
If we want the game to be anywhere near balanced at higher brackets we need the kill rate higher than 50% because at low levels killers get 4ks all the time, skewing the % by a decent amount.
Ideally we'd get an MMR breakdown but that's not what we got.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3189560#Comment_3189560
Yea, the people doing "fine" in solo q, you mean the people on here with their post history showing they're killer mains? Those are doing just fine I'm sure
I mean, there's youtubers that play solo q doing fine that you can look up as we speak if you don't want to take anyone's word for it here.
I can easily say the people complaining about solo que are just entitled survivor mains that need to git gud if I want to be a brick wall.
There's no point in opening a conversation if you're only going to listen to the side that already agrees with you and discredit everyone else.
ex. I see a lot of complaints about que times but mine are fine and the stats show they went down on both sides. Clearly the forum is just full of entitled copium sniffing survivor mains just trying to get killers nerfed.
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Because those are stats for the entire game. If its 80% at low MMR and 40% at higher, that makes sense since survivors are still stronger than killers if they're actually good, but at lower brackets killers dominate.
@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3189421#Comment_3189421
Guess I'm trash at the game with more than 6 thousand hours then since my death rate is quite high in solo q.
Hours doesn't mean skill. I know people personally that play the 1 same game for years and are still in the lowest skill bracket.
So that's possible.
There's still people doing fine in solo que. Can't say for sure personally why you're doing poorly.
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@badrepo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3184586#Comment_3184586
Because killer queues have skyrocketed so people like me who just want to play killer have been forced to play solo q to earn BP in an acceptable time frame. More people are starting to understand the state Solo Q is in right now
My killer ques are still only a few seconds, I wouldn't call that "skyrocketed".
It really depends on a lot of factors how long your ques are.
@SuzuKR said:
Survivor queue time is like 20s and killer queue time is like 30s for me.
Roughly same.
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Yes.
Boons were a mistake. Of course I'm going to assume the character that has 2 boons and the strongest boon is using it.
The only basekit way to get around boons is to tunnel the booner out.
Same as not slugging a Bill and expecting Laurie to have DS.
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Good survivors and map design still roll most of the killer cast.
To me that's not balanced.
Solo que can be rough if you get bad teammates, but that's just how solo q works in any team based PvP game.
Solo needs to be brought closer to swf then survivors need to be nerfed again/killers buffed. But until that happens I'm mostly ok where the game is now.
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yes, and all 4 survivors should have to play perfectly for a 4E.
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I mean, I don't like those solutions but I don't see the point in keeping BM in the game if we can get a good solution.
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For the same reason survivors will pop 3 gens in the first chase, they're trying to win. They just choose camping as their avenue of choice, I don't think the number of gens left changes anything in that regard.
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I don't know if I'd say the dust has cleared not even a week in, but it seems like if you can time it, DH is still very very strong.
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Depends on what you mean by "issue".
Strong and uncounterable? Hell no.
Boring? Subjective. To me, I'm holding M1 and running in circles either way so idc. It's legion so at least I'm probably winning.
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I escape a little bit less often, but that was the point of the patch. It's more so my teammates just got a little worse rather than myself. Before they would have DH DS to bail them out so I guess they're going down more/quicker. I never ran those perks so I'm used to it already.
I don't count games where someone DCs, since I know that's a big thing right now just thought I'd fyi.
I'm sure things will stabilize once people adapt.
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@jayoshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3098262#Comment_3098262
I feel like you're also not understanding or listening to what I'm saying. But maybe add this?
If a survivor is near by, the hook progress is back to normal. So if a killer and a survivor are near a hook - the hook progress is the same. If a survivor is not near by but a killer is, then the hook progress pauses. If the killer is x meters away (again I don't know how far) then hook progress is back to normal. Then a survivor can go in for the save. I feel like that's a fair mechanic.
Or just up the amount of time it takes to stay on the hook now that gens take longer to finish. Or if you hook someone before the gates are powered - have the entity take a survivor to the furthest away hook right away, unless it's the basement.
There should also be something for tunneling but I don't know how to make that fair and fun for everyone. But moving the survivor to a hook far away would fix tunneling. Gives the survivor some breathing room. All I know right now is this: having to be camped and/or immediately tunneled off a hook is really unfun / unfair for a survivor playing in that situation. I mean can we at least agree on that part? I had multiple games last night while doing my survivor tomes where I was the first one hooked and then tunneled out right away. Very first game was a Wraith waiting while cloaked by a hook. I barely got to do anything. Unless my tome was "die within a few minutes and get less than 5K BPs while doing so" - getting my tomes done was a freakin' chore and I hated it.
Like I get it that camping and tunneling has always been a part of this game, no matter how many people complain about it - but with this latest update it just made it so much worse because before if you did camp and tunnel gens would get done kinda quick and you would get like a 1 or 2K. If you have good survivors then you would get a 0K. Now playing this way it's pretty much a given you will get 3 or 4K playing like that and you will get at least a 1K (I would argue) 99% of the time. So killers are doing it more and more and survivors have to suffer for it. Again, reason why there is a drought in survivor games and killer queues take a long time. It's not the only reason but I think it's a good chunk of the reason why.
I also play both sides js. Not that that matters at all but it makes people feel better I guess. I also agree that camping is a problem, its just finding a solution that's difficult and complicated. Also for the record, I don't camp or tunnel myself as I don't enjoy those playstyles.
Not coming for you, but nothing you brought up is new, these are the same "solutions" we see brought up, with the same problems that never get solved. The patch didn't change anything in that regard, all the problems are still there.
The chase buffs don't change the survivors forcing the killer into a situation where they have to defend, but if they do they get punished.
The base gen time changes only added ~ 20 seconds. 3 survs on the first 3 gens, +10, 2 on the last 2, +10, end result 20. Its actually less if survivors stack at all on the last 2.
There wasn't some massive buff to camping this patch. Not to say camping isn't an issue, but people are overreacting and treating the patch like it was doomsday and made everything horrible and killers OP. Camping still falls apart if the survivors stick their nose to gens like they should. Especially with the NoED nerf, since NoED was also a big factor in camping scenarios for getting an extra kill.
However, survivors play into camping way too much. That's a huge reason why its still happening. Because survivors feed into it. Thats not new, that has been true for a long time.
For the "survivor in range" point/addition, the question that never has a solution is "what range?". The only way for that type of system to potentially work is to make the survivor radius significantly larger than the killer radius. A killer can easily camp from ~ TR range, so that's already 32 meters, how big do we make the survivor range? Because anything significantly bigger tends to cut of an entire section of the map, making the whole system ineffective if anyone is on a gen or anything else on that entire side of the map. So then if you want to actually have the system stop the hook timer, the survivors need to 3 gen themselves. No matter what we choose its either too small, and the killer can still camp, or too big and entire sections of the map get closed off for the survivors.
Upping hook time will give survivors more time on gens before they have to worry about the unhook. We already discussed that being an issue and hurting those that don't camp as well. You can try to only compensate for the added gen time, but dividing the ~20 seconds added by the base gen change by 12 hook states, you're only adding ~ 2 seconds per hook state. Not really going to help.
Moving the survivor to the furthest hook also presents the problem that PH has where survivors get the save really really quickly if they're spread out, which good survivors will be, because someone will be nearby. Obviously the killer can't contest from across the map, so they just get a free save. Additionally the survivor can also just run away from their teammates to force their spawn near them when they do go down.
"There should also be something for tunneling but I don't know how to make that fair and fun for everyone."
Exactly, that's the problem for camping and tunneling. No one can come up with a good solution without something drastic like overhauling the entire hook system, which the devs would never go for. It is unfun I agree, but having a realistic solution seems neigh impossible without screwing over killers, being abusable, or having some caveat that makes the system ineffective.
You could effectively ban the killer form the hook like a lot of these changes purpose, but then you'd have to significantly increase gen times to be 12 hooks with instant saves viable. But survivors don't want that either because gens are also unfun.
Again, just to be clear, I want camping changed/gone, but we'd need an entire rework of the hook/kill system to fix it imo, which I'd be all for, I even have a potential idea. But that's not happening.
As long as the killer objective is tied to killing specific people one by one, they need to be able to protect their kills/hooks unless you want gens to take ages to compensate. Without changing that, these type of solutions fundamentally can't work.
There just aren't any good solutions at this time. The very foundation of the gameplay makes it pretty much impossible without massive drawbacks on either, if not both, sides to the point it does more harm than good. Asking for that foundation to change is very likely not happening. Thus the dilemma.
I really wish the situation were different. We can toss all the hook system reworks we want, but at the end it doesn't matter if its too much change that it wont even be considered. Working with the system we currently have however, seems to cause a problem no matter what we do.
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Something needs to make spreading out hooks more optimal than tunneling.
Otherwise people will always tunnel, we need to buff spread pressure.
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My survivor experience is mostly fine when my teammates aren't DCing 20-30 seconds in because they messed up and got downed.
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@jayoshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096941#Comment_3096941
I would argue what you said is killer entitlement. You're not entitled to a win just as much as a survivor isn't either. I think everyone is entitled to have an average enjoyable time playing a game they paid for. If you don't want a 0K in that situation, then don't camp. Move on and let the other person have a shot at playing the game they paid for. You have buffed base kit and perks now. Use them.
I would agree with your part saying it would be massively worse for every killer before this update. After this update it's not anymore. This update needs more balance IMO.
Now that the game has buffed gen pressure, a killer can easily move on after someone has been hooked. Go kick a gen with your buff base kit of 2.5% reg, faster kicking, and buff gen perks. Go hit someone and catch up to them now that they nerfed how long they have haste. Now because of the new update, they can camp and tunnel someone out and get a 4K a lot easier while survivors have to suffer trying to do nerfed gens and buffed killer perks. I play both about equally - I tend to play killer more. Before the update I sometimes felt like I had to proxy camp and tunnel to really win because gens would go off so quickly, but after the update I don't have to.
Right now I feel like it's very miserable for survivors (I know it is for me) and when camp/tunnel happens about 75% of the time now it really makes playing survivor a pain. Thus why it takes so long to play killer now because less people want to put up with that. Survivor queues are in a drought.
I would say try a few games of not camping and tunneling after this update. See how it goes. I still stand by what I think needs to happen with hook progress. Because how it is now, I'm not playing survivor - I'm mainly playing killer. Having to do survivor tomes is such a chore now.
You're not listening or you don't understand. It's not entitled to let the killer have a chance at winning. It is pretty entitled to say is to say the killer being forced into a lose-lose is fine, that's saying "survivors should win this situation every time".
Letting the survivors get a free unhook when you know they're right there and ready to save will lose you the game. Hence survivors will be ready for the save all the time, like the last time they tried that solution.
Its not solved by "JuSt DoNt CamP". Its not just camping, you're losing all pressure you built up immediately because otherwise you give the survivors infinite gen time since they no longer have to worry about saving until you let them. You are putting the killer in a position where either way they are losing the game, camp or not.
Letting survivors get instant saves every single hook will lose the game. Letting them get gen time will lose you the game. There is no way for a killer to win in your system without the survivors letting them.
Your "solution" does more harm than good unless you only care about survivors.
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@jayoshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096295#Comment_3096295
I'm okay with that. I would rather the killer gets 1K from only me so the other 3 can escape. Or they can at least come in for the save after all gens are done and both gates are 99. It's a lot better than waiting to die so the killer can do it to someone else. Someone doing that as killer will probably get bored with that fast and will probably either stop playing or play differently. Right now camping and tunneling is just not fun for survivors and the killer gets rewarded because ::insert meme of that one dev shrugging:: you didn't win unless you got a kill.
I'm not ok with forcing the killer into a lose-lose of give a free unhook or lose the entire game. Like you said, they can still save the person after and that'd be a 0K.
Killers are players too. Killers should be able to defend hooks against the survivors if they contest. You're basically saying you're ok with survivors winning every game by forcing the killer into this situation where either way the killer give the survivors massive value. Like they did the first time a similar idea was implemented.
It's "a lot better" for the survivors only, and massively worse for every killer, not just the the ones who want to camp, the ones just trying to defend against instant hook saves too.
That's some pretty big survivor entitlement if you actually think that's a good idea.
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@Phantom_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096488#Comment_3096488
Hmm, fair point. I caught myself looking at this subjectively, my bad! Ty for clarifying ^^
No worries, it happens to everyone, especially with the emotional highs going on right now. Props to you for being introspective.
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@Phantom_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096431#Comment_3096431
She's doing the last gen, wdym by the other 4 gens?
Right, "omg gens are so slow" while only showing 1 gen, in the worse case scenario, with survivors unhooking right in front of the killer, with no info perks in solo q, and no one stacking on gens.
They could have been blazing by before or other mistakes could have been made. To me this does not look like a gen speed issue, this is survivors misplaying and blaming it on gen speeds/regression perks.
Admittedly that wasn't the best way for me to present that point, but I hope this clarifies.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096391#Comment_3096391
"I believe a lot of survivors are just entitled and will DC just because they don't like something"
"A lot of survivors are upset they got nerfed"
"There's a big survivor tantrum going on"
literally what else could you have possibly meant 😭
Like come on, be serious lmfao
that a lot of survivors are upset they got nerfed and cant get away with making bad decisions as often as before? That's what I said, that's what you quoted.
I'm not saying all survivors are mad only at DH like you're making it out to be.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096438#Comment_3096438
It's not about being dumb. I just dont play SWF with people who want to do other things like open chests, totems and hide all game.
Ok?
That sounds like survivors being bad at the game and making bad decisions to me. What point are you trying to show with that?
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096423#Comment_3096423
No, according to you. You were the one who claimed that in your post, nowhere in mine I said anything related to it, so don't twist it.
I will disregard someone's experience when they say in the title solo q experience when in reality they were playing swf.
It's always people who play killer or swf who claim solo q is fine.
where did I say "all" solos are dumb?
I said some.
You said your solo teammates will not save and do gens. You can guarantee that is SWF.
Ergo "some" teammates are dumb.
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@Phantom_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096396#Comment_3096396
No, they weren't doing great, but what you can see though is that as soon as they unhook Claudette, Nea gets injured, and then after a moment both of them get downed and hooked, that's when Kate goes for the rescue. IDK if they were playing SWF, if they were then it truly is on them for having bad comms. But in SoloQ you'll see way too many of these cases. And the accumulation of it all makes the game really unfun.
we also don't see the other 4 gens and what happened there, this could easily be a cherry pick.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096270#Comment_3096270
yes, we all in solo q just have really low iq clearly /s
According to you, yes.
All your solo q teammates are bad at the game and make dumb decisions.
Also I said some. Not all. My solo games have been mostly ok. Others apparently haven't.
If I want to disregard everyone elsewise experience I'd just say you're all exaggerating because you can't accept your bad at the game and are scapegoating your loss on sOlO qUe.
But taking into account others statements, a lot of randoms, a lot of survivors, are just trash at the game. SWF just guarantees you filter them out. That doesn't mean you can't get good teammates without SWF who do well.