D4RK1
D4RK1
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@fake said:
I am sorry if I offended you, as my words were not directed at you.
And I admit that I overreacted to the word toxic in the title and did not read your argument deeply enough, and I apologize. Again, I apologize. I am a fool.
Camping and tunneling (with the exception of the Bubba Faith camp right after the start) is legitimate in my opinion. But at the same time, I understand that survivors are frustrated.
It is only natural that both sides should be able to enjoy the game. But that seems to be a difficult question. I have heard that the developers are aiming for a 2kill-2escape line. The idea is that the killer should be satisfied with having executed half the survivors. In my opinion, if one of the reasons behind the dissatisfaction with camping and tunneling is that they are dying, then there will be survivors who will be dissatisfied even if it is 1kill-3escape.
If face camping is allowed, it is a hook after all 5 generators have been repaired. I would affirm that. Because there is nothing else to do. If camping were not allowed even under those circumstances, then I would say the words I just said. But I was mistaken. Sorry.
Let me get back to the point. I am in the position of considering them not TOXIC, but I agree with your suggestion because I think it is better if both parties can enjoy the game.
It makes sense to compensate the survivor who had them done to them in the form of Blood Points compensation.
In my opinion, to discourage camping and tunneling, I would rather have a system that encourages people not to do it, rather than the idea of punishing killers by base kit boro time, quick, etc.
There are actually a few PERKS that benefit from hooking evenly or staying off the hook. How about a base kit of those in smaller numbers? However, I would also like to see it not apply to S tier killers such as Nurse and Bright. Hard to think about this.
No worries, I definitely used Hyperbole in the title to get people's attention. I suppose the point I'm trying to get across is that early game facecamping and tunneling are pushing people away from playing Survivor.
I still believe that Facecamping and Tunneling and relatively toxic and sort of needs to be addressed because while it might not be personal or anything, after all having someone on hook to bait out other survivors and/or removing 1 survivor means less things that can be accomplished at once by the Survivors, in the end it's still removing a player from the game and I feel like it's bad manners when this is done early game and on purpose.
Honestly while my suggestions are mainly based around the Emblem system and Blood Points and I certainly believe the Emblem system should be tweaked, I would like to see a lot more game-impacting mechanics that encourage healthy behavior. Base kit BT honestly was a good decision IMO in fact, I wish they didn't reduce the time down to 5 seconds because that doesn't do much to deter many killers from Tunneling. In fact, most killer might just take the BT hit then pursue for the down. I also like the idea of base kit UB and would honestly like to see a base kit DS (especially considering the nerf down to 3 seconds) and even a base kit Reassurance.
On the other hand, I'd also like to see more base kit buffs for killers to shore up their issues. For example, maybe something like a base-kit Pop/Surveillance where whenever you hook a Survivor with the least number of hooks/tied for the least number of hooks, you get a token. For each token you have, all generators change hues to show their progression for 3 seconds. Additionally, the next time you kick a generator, that generator regresses 7% per token. The number of tokens resets if you hook a Survivor other than one with the least number of hooks/tied for the least number of hooks. Or built-in automatic Generator regression where a Generator that is untouched begins to regress at 20% of the normal rate which builds up to 100% regression over the next 15 Seconds.
The only issue with killer base kit changes is that the variance between effectiveness of killers is much higher than Survivors, but really the only issues I see that might pop up with changes like these is just to the strength of already oppressive killers, namely Nurse. In the end though, trust me when I say that for killers Generators seem as though they just don't pop at all or they just pop too fast and something to combat that a bit would be nice and would hopefully help with the issue of Killers feeling like they may need to camp/tunnel.
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@fake said:
The survivor has the right to escape and win, and the killer has the duty to entertain the survivor.
You are kidding, right?
I don't believe anything I said even comes close to this. Both sides should have a right to play and have fun. If your sense of having fun is just getting 3k/4k, then maybe you should consider just playing bots? Because I've had several games as Killer where I'd catch all 4 survivors in a very unfortunate place, down all 4 of them, then bring back the last one to pick up their friends so we can have a soft reset and actually have fun. Why? Because just instantly downing everyone and getting 4 kills isn't fun to me. The chasing, the mindgaming, the time management is what I find fun about the game.
If I was to throw your phrasing back at you, it'd be something along the lines of "So the Killer has the right to get 4k and the Survivor has the duty to just hang there on the hook? You're kidding, right?"
It also becomes very apparent that people haven't fully read nor understood the opening post when they say something like this because a killer CAN still do all this and be minimally affected if they don't care about Blood Points or Killer Stages (whether it be because they're already iridescent 1 or they just don't care), in which case most of the things I suggested really only affect the payout for these activities.
Additionally, a Killer should absolutely not get the same number of blood points as the best performing Survivors of a game if all they do is grab a Survivor, throw them on a hook, then sit there. At a certain point there's very little that Survivor can do if their team now decides to just concentrate on Generators because they realize the Killer is just camping. So in that case, the killer would get to "win", but pay out some of their blood points to the survivor for unsportsmanlike conduct and that's it.
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@FinestFantasyVI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205079#Comment_3205079
Yea and the MMR implementation certainly made it competitive and if killer tries to play nice or even friendly we just outright lose and get punished for it. Forcing us to play sweaty for the wins and be unhappy if we dont do well.
And honestly, I like the idea of the Emblem system being a bigger indication of winning or not, but I also want the system to be overhauled to encourage healthy behaviors. For example, Survivors can only get Iridescent Survival by not being put into the dying state even Once in the game and Gold if they escape. Honestly, I hate that because it discourages taking protection hits for Survivors who've been hooked more or just really terrible gameplay like hiding in lockers/the corner of the map to wait for hatch.
I'd also want the distribution of hooks for Killers to count more towards their emblems as opposed to just total number of hooks. And I don't mean just keep the number of hooks required the same, but also add on that they must be distributed, I mean a killer should get bonuses to points in the Devout category for hooking survivors with the least amount of hooks and a bonus for getting at least 1 hook on each survivor.
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@Starrseed said:
In light of the recent ub basekit reveal do you think your ideas still work out?
Especially the very hard penalty for killing a survivor without distributing the hooks evenly. Woulnd that make a survivor invincibile.? One surv could force himself on me and when he is on dead hook he can't die because I get punishment for killing him and I can't slug him
I absolutely do believe my ideas will still work out because there isn't a hard penalty for distributing hooks evenly, I believe I mentioned a reward incentive for distributing hooks evenly though.
If we're talking about the penalty I suggested for a Survivor dying on hook before at least 2 hooks have been made on other survivors, which can be just 2 hooks on 1 other survivor, I don't think it will really affect healthy gameplay with this update especially considering I already had the caveat of the penalties for this and camping to stop once the game is at 2 gens or less to power doors.
When it comes to a survivor that's been hooked twice take protection hits, honestly I don't really see this becoming a huge issue because, chances are at that point you're already down to 2 gens or less. If not, then honestly the killer has time to get hooks elsewhere/down the Survivor and continue after the other target.
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@FinestFantasyVI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200371#Comment_3200371
"So when it comes to sweaty swf bully squads, I don't often feel the need to camp them, even when they're being toxic and when I do, then the fixes I suggest already address the issue. If a bully squad is just about trying to bully the killer, that's honestly fine with me when I play killer because it means Gens aren't being done and all I have to do is switch up how I tackle the current situation. If they're popping gens like crazy, well then the penalties are removed towards late game and usually that's when I'd have to resort to camping (and when Camping really become the only objective for Killer anyways)."
Honestly depends on player level and map, when I was new during Halloween event, a flashlight gang bullied me on Coldwind, I was still new and relied on Lightborn, one time I didnt get it I was demolished and I played as toxic as possible by camping and all that and for a new player its worse when they dont do gens but just stay to harass you, honestly one of my most miserable games. Argubly I am better now. I am still not confident against 3 flashlighters. And the last time it happened was vs Legion. I decided "######### this #########, Im gonna farm" and I was right to recognize a swf with Head Ons and Flashlights, Im not a Legion main so Im not that skilled with them. I decided to not even sweat that match. When they thanked me post game for that, they asked why tho. I simply replied that I wasnt gonna deal with a triple flashlight and head on squad. They even sent me to their map. And yeah, best way to avoid bullies is to not even engage them the way they want you to
And really this "have fun/don't take it personally" mindset is something I believe the BP/Stage system should encourage. If you aren't going for a sweaty win streak or playing competition, it really isn't healthy to be unhappy just because you got out of a game with just 1 kill. While BHVR can't really address the competitive nature of people, they certainly can encourage people to just have respect for other people's time (like with the new update and everyone just being able to pick themselves back up/the finishing mori).
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3204342#Comment_3204342
-"So I'm a Killer main and I'm honestly not going to argue against most of your points because they're valid. But I believe my suggestions accommodate for the situations you have trouble with and, again my point isn't just that Camping and Tunneling should be 100% be eliminated from the game or even be punished if it was to be done at any and all point in the game."
Some of the maps in DBD are nearly impossible to win unless you play Nurse/Blight or have exactly the perfect killer+perk setup to defeat the cheese the SWF group plans to use. Thomspon House/Fractured Cow shed, Gas Heaven and Eyrie of crows are examples of maps that are just nearly a guaranteed loss vs "old school red rank" survivors playing with voice coms. It's ridiculous that you need to play Nurse/Blight to have a fair shot on maps such as these.
-"I do want to point out however, that if the majority of your games result in 3 Gens popping during your first chase, that this is likely a problem in skill"
Everyone is always so quick to say : you might be the problem. Yes there is a chance you are right but you're not when you consider the survivors I normally play against. The majority of people I am playing against are try hard 3 man SWFs. Most of them range from 2000-6000 hours but every now and then I will see someone with 10,000 hours or more. I'm not afraid to play against someone who has a high hour count; I am an experienced player who has also spent at least 1,000 hours watching people better than me play so I know far more tricks than I should.
Let me walk you through an example game where I play on a map like RPD. The central room and 3-4 connecting generators are the only part of the map you need to control. Typically I will harass to get a 2-4 hits and only commit to a chase I can end quickly. The goal is to hook someone in the middle hook of the main room without losing any of the close by generators. If you can do this and you have 3 close by generators the game is over - the other team just doesn't know it yet. If necessary I will camp the first person for 2-3 stages. If you lose the central hook you can use the hook at the top of the stairs and repeat the central defense dogma for the next victim.
This isn't some sort of punitive revenge strategy. It is a pro-active "I'm not in the mood for this map to be played any other way" strategy. Largely speaking this map isn't fair for the killer either. The only way to make it fair is to slow down the game. Survivors know they need to rescue and pressure gens but neither of those is an option if you play hit & run while someone is on the hook. The goal is a systematic destruction of resources around the main room that turns it into a de facto death trap. As long as you keep trading survivors and making sure they can't really break your three gen you will win as soon as you hook in the center room.
I'm 100% sure this is zero fun to play against. But as a killer I don't get a map veto option to abstain from unfair maps; nor do I get an option to play against solo players without voice coms. So I will play in whatever manner guarantees me the win - without resorting to cheating regardless of how it makes the other team feel. That being said I will usually lose 2-3 gens setting up the main room trap. Quite often every remaining generator is impossible to touch for longer than about 10 seconds
You can actually play quite a few of the maps this way if you want. And I do when the map is completely busted. As a result I get called a camper and a tunneler. But I have zero patience to try and play against SWFs who can regularly finish gens in 40 seconds as a pair (some can do it solo in about the same time with HF). It's been known for a long time that the killer objective take 6-9 minutes while the survivor objective takes 4-5 minutes. Better survivors make your objectives take longer while finishing theirs faster.
People sometimes laugh when I mention "tunneling gens" but it is 100% just the same as tunneling out survivors. People play the game in an efficient manner so they can win. It's not fun to have the killer chase you three times in a row so you die and miss most of the game. It's not fun as killer to one get to two to three hook stanges before all the gens are finished. What kind of game can you expect when you need to try and get four or five hook stages at the "end game"?
Tunneling is a two way street and it needs to be harder to complete generators when people play in a SWF. Deadlock should probably be base kit and it should have some kind of roll back so that two gens at 99% cannot both get completed by synchronized survivors so that one gen will always be locked at 99% completion instead of having a 0% generator be locked.
To emphasize the point clearly : SWFs absolutely break DBD and the devs refuse to make adjustments. I understand that many people would quit if SWFs got balanced fairly. But many killers regularly quit because the game pushes them to only play Nurse/Blight or not at all. It would be one thing if most of the killers had a MMR soft lock where they just couldn't play against high skill survivors. But survivors would not like that at all. In fact they hated it several months ago before MMR had the rules changed because the high skill players were only playing Nurse/Blight 9/10 games.
And all of these are valid points. I'm assuming you're in the 3k/4k as a win killer, 2k is a draw, and 1k is a loss? And my suggestions don't really impede on this if you REALLY want to play this way and prioritize "winning".
Personally, I play for fun and for Blood Points. The Blood Points are just to complete my roster of perks so I can try more weird and interesting combinations to have more fun.
In the end, i believe my suggestions just make it more fun in the long term for survivors without impeding the fun of Killers who just want to "win." If you're happy with just "winning," great, you're still going to be able to play as normal, you'll just get the Blood Point penalties. If you're unhappy with getting minimal Blood Points, well how is it fair that a Facecamped Survivor gets minimal Blood Points then?
If I genuinely wanted Tunneling/Camping removed from the game, then it'd just be easier to apply an increasing slow effect on killers when they stay near hook/hook the same Survivor multiple times within a short span of time and/or even increase ability/attacking cooldown.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203487#Comment_3203487
-"Sorry, but if one side's sense of fun is not wanting the other side to have fun (Early game Facecamping/Tunneling) then I don't believe that view of fun is valid"
I don't tunnel people so they are not having fun. I tunnel people out because when I play frame perfect loopers on survivor sided maps I usually lose 2-3 gens in the first chase. Before anyone says : that's a skill issue be aware it happens to all the big name streamers when they face a good team on a strong map with a non nurse/blight killer.
You need to realize that having gens which are almost impossible to defend via coordination from voice coms makes the game extremely unpleasant as killer. Bully squads are probably part of the reason killers learn to "play hard." Once you get stomped by one one time for playing nice - most people I know immediately don't play nice ever again.
So I'm a Killer main and I'm honestly not going to argue against most of your points because they're valid. But I believe my suggestions accommodate for the situations you have trouble with and, again my point isn't just that Camping and Tunneling should be 100% be eliminated from the game or even be punished if it was to be done at any and all point in the game.
But I do want to bring up that it's a tough balance between SWFs of varying skill levels vs Solo Queue and these changes are meant to just improve quality of life for all groups of players. In fact, they're sort of oriented towards assisting newer players and Solo Queue since those tend to perform less well than SWFs, much less competitive SWFs.
The biggest points of my post are that if you're literally just tunneling out one player of the game from the beginning (hence, 1 player dying before at there are a total of at least 2 other hooks on any combination of players which can be just 1 other player) and just ignoring all other players (here's an example of both the kind of tunneling and facecamping I'm referring to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7FfYFnRqJQ&t=1070s), you should be penalized for it.
In your case, if 3 gens pop in your first chase, then I absolutely do believe you should start to do a bit of camping/tunneling to get the edge in the game and again, my suggestions accommodate for this. At 2 Gens or less, the penalties for Camping/Tunneling should deactivate.
I do want to point out however, that if the majority of your games result in 3 Gens popping during your first chase, that this is likely a problem in skill as in my experience as both Survivor and Killer, usually 1 Gen will pop during the first chase/unhook, a 50/50 if 2 Gens pop during this, and rarely will 3 Gens pop during the first chase (and this is usually just in the situation of the killer finding a REALLY good team or even just a REALLY good looper). If this isn't happening in the majority of your Killer games on the other hand, then great, what point is there to Facecamping and Tunneling at that point?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203502#Comment_3203502
Now saying something isn't toxic makes someone a bigot? Yikes. I guess you're also a bigot since you called it toxic.
Bigot: "a bigoted person
especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)"
I don't think that applies here just because you labeled something as toxic and I disagreed. Although you do like to try and use ad hominin attacks to try and discredit others it seems.
Again, your title is part of your post, its perfectly on point to discuss it on a discussion and feedback forum. You don't get to just chop off a piece of your post and say "that doesn't count, you can't talk about it". Like, why did you include it on your post in a discussion forum if you didn't want it to be open to discussion?
Your muddled, overly defensive, assumption filled, long winded post aren't proving much of anything as, again, you were mainly arguing against a stance I never had. If you didn't assume so much and weren't so defensive maybe we could've have an actual concise focused conversation.
You can be toxic and also try to win sure, but the act of trying to win itself isn't toxic inherently. Therefore, trying to use tunneling and camping to win isn't toxic unless you are purposely malicious while doing so.
Also again, just because it's unfun or you don't like it doesn't make it toxic. You don't seem to be separating the 2.
If your personal understanding of toxic is flawed and you think that someone just trying to win is toxic, then there's not much more to say. You're speaking from a flawed foundation.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigot
noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
Sorry at this point it's pretty clear you're just here as a troll for attention and there's really no intelligent or productive conversation to be had with you. You first take my words completely out of context and twist them to fit your means and get angry at me when I take your words in context and use them against you, then you accuse me of ad hominin right after you do so, "I thought you would be smart enough to not work against your argument".
@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203502#Comment_3203502
honestly at this point just change your title to "purposed solution to camping and tunneling" or something, rather than using it as an excuse to say something but then brush off anyone who disagrees because "that's not the post" even though it is part of it.
Your title can still be a statement.
I'm not the only one whose brought it up. If you don't want to discuss it don't include it in your post, title or otherwise.
I can't really spell it out further for you than the fact that I've been addressing each of your points and providing both a explanation and evidence each time and you've just been saying whatever you can to not be in the wrong. It's honestly a better use of my time to have a conversation with a brick wall, including when you've gone off topic and are attempting to say you're just arguing semantics when it feels more like a smokescreen than anything else. I've literally already directly addressed that "Trying to win is not toxic" is absolutely incorrect. In fact, you've already provided counter arguments to yourself by saying that t-bagging and notification spamming is toxic, considering that literally just trying to overload the killer with information or provoking them is (a toxic) strategy that can be employed to win on the Survivors' side.
If you really wanted to argue just semantics and the definition of "toxic" how come you haven't actually provided a definition you're using to actually further an argument? It's pretty clear you're just here to be contradictory and to try and gaslight people so I'm just going to do us both a favor, save my time and energy, and just stop attempting to actually have a productive conversation with you.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202922#Comment_3202922
You're the one with the misunderstanding, that's what I've been saying. Your title is part of your post, so its fair game to criticize. You read what I said and assumed that I was brushing off your entire argument and suggestions when the only thing I brought up was the toxic portion. That's on you buddy.
You took "hey this isn't toxic" and turned it into "wow you're disagreeing with my entire idea and saying this is perfectly fine to leave in the game as is".
Anything after that I was just responding to what you were saying.
The only way for your quote not to mean that, that means you are actually asking why they would change it if it wasn't toxic. This is counterproductive to your point as you're trying to argue it is. So either you're saying that they wouldn't if it wasn't toxic or you're working against your own argument.
I thought you would be smart enough to not work against your argument, so I guess thinking that was on me if you're saying that's what happened. Unless you can give me another reason why that question was included. As far as I see, it was either sarcastic or counterproductive to your argument.
At this point, in my opinion, it looks like you're being disingenuous to avoid any admission of fault on your side, or you just like to argue and be problematic, or you're being overly sensitive and taking any criticism as an attack against your entire post..
Well I'm sorry if that really was the entire point of your post and yes, you can certainly criticize that specific part. Though I have been making valid arguments that trying to win can indeed be toxic that you are continuing to brush aside to fit your own agenda. But honestly, in a suggestion forum if your main concern is just semantics, it seems pretty bigoted of you to post just for that. And I'm honestly not sure if you're trying to backtrack to get a one up or if you really are that bigoted.
Again, you might as well have posted "Well it's not" because it would've implied the same thing. Failure in communication includes all sides of the equation. Did I assume what you were saying? Yes. But I was also assuming you'd actually stay on topic. You CAN criticize the title's semantics, but the topic was a manner in which to fix early game facemping/tunneling. Again, this just makes you a bigot.
I like how you're working against your own argument, again that "Trying to win isn't toxic" and mentioning things like t-bagging and notification spamming which can be used to attempt to provoke the killer, but now you're somehow also now accusing me of arguing against my own points? Which I don't see how I would be? They're fixing these issues because it's Toxic in a manner that adversely affects gameplay and people's enjoyment of the game rather than being Toxic just because it's bad manners if you need it fully explained to you. And no, I never said they're fixing it JUST because it's toxic. Also I'm again pointing out that aspects of winning can certainly be toxic, which is what it seems your argument is about. Sorry I assumed you'd be smart enough to glean that from context.
I'm not being disingenuous at all, my line of logic has stayed constant. Sadly you're the one who is trying to pick and choose specific phrases, taking them out of context, twisting them to accommodate your argument, but also concurrently accusing others of doing the same when they're really not. Last I checked I did address the fact that I may have misunderstood your first post considering the context, but again I've pointed out how some aspects of attempting to win CAN be toxic. And again if you simply don't like the manner in which I've been using the word "toxic," then you absolutely are off topic as this discussion was never meant to be an argument on the definition of "toxic."
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@DBDVulture said:
Survivors tunnel generators and break the killer's three gen setup so the killer in turn is forced to tunnel out survivors.
Remove tunneling from both sides or there will be a problem.
This would definitely be a great argument if I was indeed arguing for Camping/Tunneling to be completely removed from the game, but I'm not. Even the changes I suggested state that the penalties and whatnot for doing so should be removed once there are 2 or less Gens left to be done. This is specifically to counter early game Facecampers/Tunnelers who do so because they can't earn bloodpoint or "win" as killers otherwise.
@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203276#Comment_3203276
Survivors want to remove generators from the game without ever being hooked.
It is hypocritical behavior to want the other side to play in a way that maximizes your fun when you don't consider their fun at all.
Tunneling out generators or survivors is efficient play.
So actually the reason for not wanting to be hooked also deals with the Emblem system because the only way to get the Survival Iridescent Emblem is to just not be hooked. And honestly, I think that should be changed because it discourages players from taking protection hits and trading on hook for one another.
Sorry, but if one side's sense of fun is not wanting the other side to have fun (Early game Facecamping/Tunneling) then I don't believe that view of fun is valid. Again all changes I suggested are to address Killer who jump into a game, grab a Survivor, then Facecamp them or Tunnel them out, usually before even 1 or 2 Gens are done.
Another thing is that Survivors don't always "Tunnel" out or Rush Generators. And if they do, they're usually good enough that these changes already accommodate the fact that late game will be reach relatively quickly. Now if you're arguing that Gens are done too quickly, honestly I don't often find it to be a problem when I play killer at all MOST of the time, but when it's clear a group is in a SWF, that changes sometime. But In those cases, when I finish a chase and 3 Gens are done at once, that's the late game and the penalties imposed by the suggested changes would stop. Though I do believe that there should be more built-in gen slow down so that killers don't have to bring at least 1 Gen slowdown perk if they want to be as efficient as possible in playing.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202788#Comment_3202788
EGC was to stop holding the game hostage not waiting at the gate. T-bagging is still here. Hook hitting is still here. Notification spamming is still here.
"As for t-bagging, it doesn't really affect gameplay now does it?"
Exactly, that's why its toxic.
"So how come they're doing this if trying to win isn't toxic?"
"I never said they did it because it was toxic"
Yeah you did. They wouldn't change it if it wasn't toxic according to you.
Define "fine".
its not toxic, I never said it wouldn't be better if it were gone.
That's been my main argument/point, its not toxic or "not valid". My post was "It's not toxic to try and win the game." That's my point. Its a valid strategy. Survivors don't find it fun. Alright but that's different.
You're the one who took it off topic and started talking about teammates and whatnot. Again, you're arguing against a point/stance I never expressed or brought up. You assume way too much and get carried away with it.
I don't see how in the context those separate quotes were taken from you somehow got that what I meant is that they wouldn't change things unless it was toxic? For someone who allegedly dislikes people putting words in their mouth and twisting their words, you honestly as the worst perpetrator of it. When I said "So how come they're doing this if trying to win isn't toxic?" I was questioning your main point/argument, you know the one I allegedly took off topic? "It's not toxic to try and win the game."? I was pointing out that yes, this aspect of "winning" IS toxic. So just because it's an objective towards winning doesn't automatically waive the fact that something is toxic.
I honestly fail to understand where you somehow derived what I've said to you as "They wouldn't change it if it wasn't toxic." Though I am certain a decent portion of the reason for the change includes toxicity, like wasting all the Survivors' time by just letting them all bleed out on the ground rather than hooking them. Not to mention, player enjoyability of the game is pretty important for the health of a game.
I'm sorry, but if you're really going to now say that the only reason you posted is semantics, I sort of wonder why you posted in the first place? Like if literally your only point was that you believed I was using the term "toxic" incorrectly, which is what it sounds like you're trying to say, then honestly I feel like the misunderstanding is on you and it also means that you already missed the whole point of the thread in the first place?
Considering the context of your post in this thread? I don't think I can really be blamed for the specific assumptions I made? Not to mention, I have been addressing your point of "It's not toxic to try and win the game." It also feels like you're contradicting yourself because provoking the Killer to chase you is very much so a legitimate Survivor strategy and it doesn't force the Killer into a situation where they cannot play the game. So now you're contradicting yourself by bringing up t-bagging, notification spamming, and hook hitting (which is really just a part of tunneling).
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@RonMan32 said:
I like a lot of these changes but this seems needlessly complex? I'd just remove hook grabs on healthy survivors and have basekit kindred "kick in" after the killer has been within' 20m of the hooked survivor for more than 15 seconds (with these 15 seconds counting back down after the killer leaves at the same rate, and back up if they enter it again) remaining for 5 seconds after the killer leaves the radius.
Maybe a few other changes could be made where if a killer stays within hooked survivors for WAY to long and often all survivors get a diet basekit boil over until the end of the match and this would be combined with basekit breakdown where maybe if a killer was within' a 20m radius of a hooked survivor for more than 30 seconds that survivors hook is now weakened and will break on unhook even if the killer leaves the radius for the rest of their time on hook.
And yeah getting camped/tunneled out of a game should somehow always at least grant a safety pip because that can happen to someone of any skill level really. (I know pips don't count towards MMR anymore it just sucks to lose one just because the killer didn't like the way you looked at him)
So the reason my suggestions especially deal with Stage Progression and Blood Points is because it feels like that's the biggest incentive for most killers who do it from the start of a game. It's also meant to essentially compensate the wasted time of a Survivor that was Tunneled/Facecamped out of the game by essentially making the Killer pay for it. It literally just feels bad when you actually do decently and loop a killer for a decent chunk of time, just to be caught and hooked, then facecamped to death and you get 5k BP whereas the killer is getting 15-25k BP.
I've definitely gotten camped out towards endgame before, but while I might initially be unhappy at the circumstances, I usually come to the realization that doors are powered and the killer has nothing else they can do. Not to mention, in these circumstances, I've already earned enough points to gain a Pip or maintain my Pips.
Your suggestions are definitely good as well! I'd honestly love to see a much bigger rework to help combat the problems of DbD, but my suggestions mainly focused on the rewards for the Match as opposed to the loop of the match itself because game balance is weird when taking into account the competitive scene vs the SWF scene vs the Solo Queue scene. But honestly there are tons of things I'd like to see like the removal of 99ing the doors or Hex: No One Escape Death being either destroyed or moved if a survivor is hooked within 20m of it (once had a huntress hook me with the NOED totem right next to me and then camped both, had to myself on hook to discourage the remaining 2 Survivors from coming for rescue.)
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202652#Comment_3202652
I disagree, you're putting words in my mouth.
They're not changing it because its toxic. They don't do changes because they're toxic otherwise t-bagging and waiting at the gate would be disabled/punished.
I never brushed off your entire suggestion, I just pointed out that these things aren't toxic or not valid as put in your title.
Again, unfun and toxic are 2 different things.
You're taking offense to something I never said.
Waiting outside gate WAS punished, they implemented the end game collapse for it? As for t-bagging, it doesn't really affect gameplay now does it? Not to mention, a killer can always do something about t-bagging, putting a survivor into the dying state, causing them to be knocked out of the gates or hooking them afterwards, is something they definitely have control of.
I never said they did it because it was toxic. But they are implementing a change to the base game because of problems players have experienced and expressed that deal with gameplay and enjoyment of the game. I don't really see the difference between that and the topic of this thread which is early game camping/tunneling being a problem for the overall health of the game.
I'm not taking offense, but brushing off the main subject IS what you're doing. Your argument this entire time has essentially just been "Well, it's a way of accomplishing the objective, so it's fine." Like it's self-explanatory. Meanwhile I've been pushing the subject of respecting players' time by making it worth their time to Queue in. If I recall correctly, your rebuttal to that was "then just don't queue in." Currently I've brought up an example that directly addresses the whole "Well it's accomplishing the objective" argument you have and you seem to be trying to deflect the subject to semantics. How else should I take it, other than you're just trying to be contradictory?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202567#Comment_3202567
You really like putting word in peoples mouth to try and twist their meaning huh?
No I didn't say any of that. My original comment just said trying to win isn't toxic with an example to compare.
Killing survivors is the win condition. The most efficient way to do that currently is tunneling. Camping preys on altruism to do the same. Trying to win isn't toxic, simple as that.
Saying you want to change something because it's unfun is different from calling it "toxic and not a valid way to play the game".
I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm trying to show you what you are implying by what you are saying.
Sorry, but just because something can be part of the win condition doesn't mean that it isn't toxic and unhealthy for the game and is a completely invalid argument considering that penalties and rules can be adjusted.
For example, Slugging is currently also a very effective strategy for killer, especially if they want a 4 kill and don't want hatch to spawn, the killer can just not hook and then take their time finding the last survivor, which they usually do before all other survivors die. BHVR's most recent update has stated that they're looking to put a stop to slugging by allowing all survivors to eventually fully recover. So how come they're doing this if trying to win isn't toxic? I mean eventually slugged survivors will die, so it clearly isn't toxic to slug down an entire Survivor team and leave them to bleed out on the floor because as killer you are fulfilling the win conditions. BHVR is also looking to implement a "Final Mori" system so killers can't just slug the entire team like this.
Again, I'm pointing out an issue with the game and you're trying to brush it off and leave it unaddressed for... whatever reason?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202492#Comment_3202492
"Meanwhile you're here insisting that only competitive play should exist? If you can't play Survivor well, don't even try until you get good? Something along those lines?"
I didn't say that at all. I said if you personally don't like it, go get a team. Otherwise you have to deal with random teammates because they're random.
Oh I see, so you're saying that an issue that pushes players away from the game should just... continue unaddressed? I mean you're saying that joining a full team will solve everything, but if a player gets singled out and Facecamped/Tunneled at 5 Gens, it seems like that problem is still a problem. Especially if we're dealing with a Facecamping Bubba.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201458#Comment_3201458
Being on hook is part of the intended core survivor gameplay loop, just because you don't like that aspect it doesn't mean you're not playing the game while its happening. Especially if we're talking about "technically". You can look around, scout out the map, relay info if you have the ability, use hook perks ect. If you don't like it don't que up. If you want 100% uptime during the match play killer.
Part of a team based game, if you want your teammates to do a certain thing each time get a SWF.
Doesn't matter what I define as winning. The game defines winning as killing survivors, with a 2k being a draw so anything above that is a win. Camping and tunneling help you get kills, therefore they help you win.
So I know you think you're making a valid point, but you're really not.
Relay info? like if Kindred was a global ability? Or do you mean like Voice Chat which isn't a part of the base game? Again, are you saying that Solo Queue should just be removed? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying and that's a pretty surefire way to kill the game. Or are you saying that people should just play killer if they don't want to be facecamped and tunneled from the beginning of a game? Because that would slow down queue time for killers quite a lot. I don't believe i ever said I want 100% uptime during a match as Survivor or that being on hook isn't part of the gameplay loop. But what I am saying is that maybe the game should do more to de-incentivize behaviors that put players off from the game.
And where does the game define 2k as a draw? Or even that killing survivors is winning? Last I checked, if you somehow knocked out all 4 survivors within the first 5 minutes of the game and sacrificed them all, you'd get a "The Entity Hungers" as a killer and probably lose Killer Stage progress for it. Maybe you can point out where the game officially defines winning?
Sounds like I'm suggesting ways to decrease volatility in the game and make it more inviting for new and old players alike, leaving the actual mechanics alone, but just adding incentive for healthy behaviors and de-incentivizing toxic behaviors. Meanwhile you're here insisting that only competitive play should exist? If you can't play Survivor well, don't even try until you get good? Something along those lines?
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@Whoudini said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201875#Comment_3201875
That's more of the point awarding system not being good than a camping/tunnelling issue. If for example the killer does not camp and tunnel but is not good at the game so he does not delay the game enough or get in enough good chases and hooks then survs get screwed in another way since as far as the game is concerned they did not do anything.
Typically turbo tunnelling at the wrong time will result in a loss since your only pressuring one guy and if it goes wrong you will in most cases lose. So its very easy to throw the game to tunnel or camp especially if you dont get an early down.
Even if people gained 0 points for camping, killers would still do it to secure their one kill or because they just hate that one guy. So making even a perfect point awarding system would still not stop a killer from doing it if they want to.
Cool, this isn't meant to stop all camping/turbo tunneling. It's meant to discourage it and to compensate a survivors whose time is wasted when someone does.
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@Whoudini said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201583#Comment_3201583
If a killer wants to tunnel, regardless of comp or not they are going to do it period. The best that can be done is to make them throw the match to do it (lose the match is what throw means fyi).
Sorry, but I don't think you got what I was trying to communicate. For the Tunneled player, how is it fair that their performance is now considered terrible just on the whim of the killer? Considering Stage progression and Blood Points?
On the other hand, a killer who Facecamps and Tunnels will very likely at least maintain Stage Progression and gain a moderate amount of Blood Points. In what manner is this considered throwing the match? Seems like Killers pretty much have a win-draw scenario here whereas Survivor pretty much have a lose-lose scenario. Again, Survivors won't be gaining boldness BP/Stage Progression due to lack of chases, same with Altruism considering the likely lack of heals/unhooks.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201583#Comment_3201583
What they mean is making camping and tunnelling more costly for the killer.
If camping/tunnelling results in a scenario where the killer can only secure one or two kills, ergo not 'win', they'll be less inclined to do it in general.
The fact that the one survivor getting tunnelled isn't having a good time is a moot point when the incidence rate of tunnelling in general decreases as a result.
Oh no, don't worry I caught that. But let's be real, especially in Solo Queue, you don't control the actions of your fellow Survivors. Sure you can stay on Gen, but you'll complete maybe 1 by the time the Survivor dies on hook with 1, maybe 2 teammates camping around the killer, hoping they leave. Killers who tend to Facecamp/Tunnel early game aren't going to be discouraged to doing it just because Gens pop, in fact many do it knowing they will, but don't care because they're still getting an equal number of blood points if not more than the Survivors.
Sorry, my point isn't that one survivor getting tunneled isn't having a good time. In fact it sort of feels like the arguments thrown so far are under the assumption that my argument is that Tunneling/Camping should just be completely eliminated when my argument is that everyone should be incentivized to let everyone just play the game. Camping/Tunneling are sometimes all the killer can do when up against a very good team, but that means Gens should be getting done. If Gens aren't being done, well then the killer will eventually "win" now won't they?
Furthermore, if we're talking objectives and gameplay, hook rescues ARE a Survivor objective. Sure you can call it a side objective, but having less Survivors makes pressuring the Killer significantly harder. Not to mention, gaining Survivor Stage Pips does rely a decent amount on hook rescues. Not only that, but ALL survivors literally get a penalty to their Stage Point gain whenever a Survivor is hooked, which is recovered when the survivor is unhooked. It simply isn't fair that killers can affect Survivors this much when doing minimal work.
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@Whoudini said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201458#Comment_3201458
If the killer wants to tunnel that steve they r going to do it, the best you can do is make them throw the match to do it.
Throw the match? what do you mean? Do survivors get a multiplier bonus for how many Survivors make it out? No. Does the Steve also get to "win" if the Survivors "win the match"? I'm sorry, but it seems like you're believing I'm talking about competitive play with some sort of cash payout for the winning team, but I'm just talking about playing the game. The reason Tunneling is toxic is because that Steve is not going to get to play and is not getting much BP out of the game and is probably losing a Pip for Survivor Stages.
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@MrPenguin said:
Gencampign and Rushing are not legitimate ways to play and toxic to the game.
Yeah no I don't agree with either statement. Doing the objective is doing the objective.
It's not toxic to try and win the game.
So i know you think you're making a valid point by likening these things, but you're really not for a number of reasons. The first and foremost reason is that a Killer will eventually find and chase at least 1 Survivor throughout the course of the game and whether or not that Survivor goes down, the Killer is playing throughout the game. Technically speaking, the Killer is still "playing" while Facecamping and/or Tunneling. On the other hand, a Survivor that gets Tunneled out or Facecamped is in fact NOT playing anymore and their time has just been wasted for something they cannot control.
On the subject of control, even if a full Survivor team is Genrushing/Gencamping the killer in fact has many options at their disposal. The first is to tighten their patrol path to easy to patrol Gens and keeping those from popping. There are several games as Killer where I've won because the Survivors decided they would do all the outer gens and leave the 3 easiest to patrol Gens for the end. There are also several games as Survivor where we're on 2 Gens and I 99 one of the easier Gens so that I can then finish one of the harder gens then pop it, but some other Survivor comes along and pops the 99'd gen and now the Killer has an easy time defending every one of the last 3 Gens at once.
Also, what do you define as "winning" the game? 4 Kills? I mean after all can you call it a win if any ONE of your opponents leaves? In which case we should also remove Hatch because it's like catchup in a racing game, the Survivors are at a Disadvantage, but now suddenly they have an easy way to clutch the game! 3 Kills? Well that's a weird arbitrary number, how come it's a win when there are 4 Survivors total and you only got 3 of them? Shouldn't the Killer then be punished for letting any one of them live? Not to mention, the Survivors are in Co-Op and everything each Survivor does affects the whole team so all Survivors should benefit if ANY survivor survives, 'cause then the Survivors win! But in the end, if you believe 4k or 3k means you win, this doesn't affect any of that really. All it does is affect Blood Points and Stage progressions, so you can Tunnel and Camp all you want, you'll just get reduced BP and Stage Progression.
@Whoudini said:
If they r so ineffective then why do people do it in comp as a viable stratergy?
I can tell you haven't read the post at all. The point made here is that Killers who do minimal work (Facecamping and Tunneling from the beginning of the game) should not be rewarded for doing so. Is it effective? Questionably, depending on the Survivors you're facing, but my post isn't really about whether or not it's effective. It's about actually letting Survivors have fun and incentivizing it/compensating players who get Facecamped/Tunneled early on for no reason. Sorry but it's pretty ridiculous when a Wraith hunts down a random Steve for the entirety of the game despite all other players trying to body block even while injured for said Steve and the Wraith just ignores the other players they've downed for... viability I guess?
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@Xord said:
I'll add that while tunneling is an "efficient" way to get 4 kills (and by efficient I mean a baby killer can easily get 4 kills by tunneling 4 experienced survivors), it is often compared to "survivors playing in an efficient way".
The main problem is that the killer's objective is to kill survivors, but the survivor's objectives aren't to kill the killer.
The point of balancing should be that both sides have fair chances to win, and fair chances to actually play the game. If you're being tunneled, you don't get to play the game really. In order for the game to stay healthy, tunneling need to be a sub optimal way to play. When killer queues will take 30 minutes and eventually no one will want to play the game, tunnelers will have all the opportunity to defend tunneling as a viable strategy, as the servers will be offline anyways and no one will care anymore.
I think your suggestions are too much based on bloodpoints, but I think many players would rather get 4 kills than lots of bloodpoints.
Personally, I would suggest those changes:
- Since Kindred has been confirmed not to be given baseline ever to survivors, they should add icons next to survivors. (I think behavior mentionned that a while ago but I'm not sure if it's officially being worked on). icons should show if survivors are being chased, working on generators, being close to a hooked survivor, healing, or being healed. They shouldn't know the position of other survivors, but they should have a good idea of what's going on.
- Remove unhook grabs, and reduce the huge delay that happens after an unhook, when both survivors can't move for a few seconds. I feel like unhook speed is a useless mechanic exactly because it doesn't reduce that anyway.
- Camping: Give survivors a generator repair speed bonus after X seconds of the killer staying close to the save. That speed should increase with time, and decrease with distance. The maximum value should be high enough to represent a major threat, and the distance shouldn't be too high. Ideally, this should be cancelled if the killer is in a chase. (to avoid survivors looping near the hoog and abusing reassurance)
- Tunneling: Give survivors a generator repair speed when a survivor is killed, based on their hook stage. Not sure about the values, but if a survivor is deleted while all others have never been hooked, the repair speed should be heavily increased (50 or even 100%)
- Decisive strike should be baseline, and/or the perk should be a major threat. Again, lots of possibilities here. Maybe a 3 second baseline and 6 with the perk. Maybe a 2 seconds baseline? Maybe nothing baseline but 6/7 seconds with the perk? Overall, a killer committing to tunnel should be punished.
Overall, let's make tunneling never a viable option.
IF you're gonna say that those changes would make killers too difficult, then fine, let's work from there and buff killers if needed. I'm all for killer being more viable, I loved last patch in that regard. But it shouldn't mean that survivors have a terrible time playing.
So the reason why my suggestion is based off of BP and Stages is because I don't think a change in gameplay is necessary if the devs want to keep it as is for more competitive play. Certainly I do personally believe that mechanically speaking there should be more of a deterrent for Facecamping and Tunneling, but this would probably require a larger rebalance which would probably include some manner of inherent Gen slowdown other than just kicking atm.
@Gandor said:
Aura reading is quite strong. I would opt for something like a killer instinct, but slower (survivors "ping" there position once every let's say 3-5s). It will still notify of general position. But it will not provide detailed information (something even regular SWF don't have as there exists an information loss when speaking).
While I understand the concern of aura reading, honestly I feel as though having Kindred baseline will not be broken at all considering things like Fearmonger is a pretty often used perk for killers and that even with Kindred, while the aura reading is definitely nice, sometimes Survivors will still just do Gens despite seeing that everyone else is also on a Gen. This is definitely to weed out a camping killer, but also to just give a bit of information so Survivors can rescue off hook proficiently.
@Bran said:
1. Baseline kindred would have been better than basekit BT for sure. But since it'd have to be a perk, the killer ahra would be added on the perk probably.
2. Removing grabs is terrible. You should be able to punish a surv if they attempt to unhook in front of you without trading a hook.
3. Killer doesn't need to see the survivor.
4. That's just silly.
5. No actual comment.
6. That's also pretty silly.
Facecamping is boring, but shouldn't impose any penalty or reward.
Tunnelling should be used very specifically. The only real kind of tunnelling is if the killer is specifically targeting someone and not just punishing a bad unhook (or simply re-targeting them because they can).
Removing grabs from Hook saving is ABSOLUTELY not terrible. It sort of feels like you haven't been in a Hook Standoff. To clarify, a Hook Standoff is when a Healthy Survivor and a Killer are both in front of a Hooked Survivor with the Killer staring at the Survivor while the Survivor is staring at the Hooked Survivor and the Survivor is essentially Unhooking and Canceling in an attempt to trick the Killer into attacking so that the Healthy Survivor can trade on hook. Sorry, but this is extremely stupid "gameplay". Hatch Standoffs were stupid and so are Hook Stabndoffs.
I don't believe the suggestions are silly at all. They're meant to incentivize y'know... playing the game as opposed to doing minimal work? Facecamping is boring and it really isn't playing the game, especially in the early game (which is why I suggest the possible penalties be removed in the late game).
@FinestFantasyVI said:
The only time I actually camp is when Im faced with a sweaty swf bully squad who thows me in a heavily survivor sided map. And I get bodied by those guys sometimes because well if its obvious by my avatar, I play Trickster. So not someone who is even meant to camp. When gens fly and people click and tbag me. You bet Im gonna camp the fck out of that toxic survivor and hit them on hook. If they make me miserable, I make them.
Otherwise, camping to me is useless and I want to make a fun game for both survivor and killer, the best matches after all are those that are thrilling and close where the game can go any way. Its never fun if one side stomps the other. Thats why I dont want to play the meta killers like Nurse or Blight or even a happy camper like Bubba
So when it comes to sweaty swf bully squads, I don't often feel the need to camp them, even when they're being toxic and when I do, then the fixes I suggest already address the issue. If a bully squad is just about trying to bully the killer, that's honestly fine with me when I play killer because it means Gens aren't being done and all I have to do is switch up how I tackle the current situation. If they're popping gens like crazy, well then the penalties are removed towards late game and usually that's when I'd have to resort to camping (and when Camping really become the only objective for Killer anyways).
@BabyShrimp said:
Ngl your ideas to counter face camping sound not good. Why should survivors be rewarded for not timing their save? Hooking someone who hasn't been hooked is a very bad strategy for the killer, and I don't mean to tunnel I mean it's not good to prioritize someone who hasn't been hooked. Forcing hook states is a survivor strategy because the killer needs that pressure. Spreading the hooks out evenly shouldn't be encouraged on the killer's side.
My best suggestion is if a survivor is hooked for a certain amount of time and they die on that hook that's clearly not their fault and their grade progress should be paused. This means people who purposely die on hook still lose pips but also survivors aren't punished for being camped or having a bad team. It's also encourages the camped survivor to stay on the hook and do skill checks so their team can do gens which is the best way to counter camping.
So it feels like your commentary is very much so based on competitive play as opposed to actually playing the game. Certainly, Tunneling is definitely the better choice for the killer as removing opposing players means the Killer has less of an opposing force to deal with, but at what point should the killer stop doing something because it's not "viable"? And what about the Survivor side of things? Are you saying it's healthy for the game for killers to just Facecamp and Tunnel each of their games? Sure they might not get a 4k, but getting 1-2k usually means they'll get as much if not more BP than the Survivors for doing minimal work. As for viability, should killers all run meta perks and only play Nurse, Blight, and Spirit then? Sorry, but not being "viable" is not a good excuse for basically wasting someone else's time.
My suggestions already address Stage progression, but while this addresses the stage progression problem, it doesn't address the fact that if a Killer has facecamped this Survivor until dead, this Survivor who probably hasn't done anything wrong just didn't get to play the game because the Killer isn't good enough to actually play the game. Sorry, but I'm thinking about the health of the game as a whole. Not to mention, why does the number of kills for a killer before endgame have to be the standard to which a Killer "wins" the game? There are competitive groups out there that determine winning via the number of total hooks and honestly I feel that's a better (though not perfect) standard than kills.
@Deathstroke said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3199776#Comment_3199776
I had competive blight tunneling my teammate in less than 2 minutes in game at 5 gens. We tried help but he ignored us gave him free downs and tunneled wiggled out but he still went after him. After that he hard tunneled me out. There were 3 cakes in the game so it really sucked he has to play most scummy way possible. He wanted easy win at 5 gens I get it but he could done it more fair way when there were so many cakes. Well maybe there should be game mode survivors killing killer so we could get revenge.
Honestly the biggest problem I want to address is really the feeling that your time has been wasted in a game. Getting maybe 5k BP for a game and watching the endgame screen as the killer gets 15-25k BP for facecamping is the most disheartening thing ever and is extremely toxic to the health of the game. Honesty if BHVR is wondering why turnover rate of players in DbD is so high, it's because of Hackers and because of this. It's also probably why there's almost always more Killers than Survivors most of the time. As Killer you don't need to deal with Facecamping and Tunneling, in fact you can do it yourself and get more blood points than if you played survivor so....
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I posted a subject on this a bit earlier here, https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/337716/a-newbs-opinion#latest, which I believe is honestly the best way to combat this situation.
Overall, the only real time I believe camping should be acceptable is once exit gates are powered and/or there are only 2 Survivors left just because there's real reason or way to discourage the killer otherwise during these times because of the obvious strategic advantage or not during these times. Tunneling I don't really view as a Killer problem necessarily because it's not really an advantage you can just take away without changing base mechanics.
In my opinion, the solution to this problem is just to create mechanics to discourage these types of behaviors and also to encourage other behaviors. Like for example, tunneling is a much larger problem in solo queue and lower MMR because taking protection hits isn't really encouraged except by a handful of BP so players tend to either to try to rush Generators instead or just hide and wait it out for Hatch or... just ide without a plan because they're scared of getting caught on Generator.
Honestly of the 2 issues you bring up, I feel like camping, particularly facecamping, is the bigger of the two issues. I've run into many games where killer would just hook 1 Survivor at a time and literally just be right next to them, watching them. Sadly while in Solo Queue I've had exactly 1 game so far where another Survivor actually worked with me to save a camped Survivor and sadly we still got out with only 2 Survivors that game. To put things in perspective, during a game where a killer is facecamping, if the Survivors are really good, they'll usually be able to get Gens done in time (unless it's a Killer like Pinhead whose box must be solved), but 1 usually 2 survivors will go down and 2 Survivors is a generous estimate because especially in Solo Queue there tend to be Survivors who go to go in solo to rescue a camped survivor and go down themselves which means Gens are slower which means that the Killer will usually actually get a 3-4k. In the situation where 1 Survivor got downed very early in the game and got fully camped out of the game followed by a second who just got unlucky and got caught afterwards, and the last 2 survivors successfully escaped via Exit Gates, the first Survivor got around 4k BP, the second around 6k BP. Meanwhile the Killer got 10k BP and the escaping Survivors got 15k BP. I'm sorry, but right now the game absolutely is not discouraging face camping because the two Survivors who got facecamped not only got screwed out of a game, but also out of BP whereas the Killer made a decent chunk of BP just sitting around for most of the game and then the Surviving Survivors got only 50% more BP than the Killer. Sadly Facecamping kinda punishes EVERYONE when it really should just punish the Killer because of how short the game is and the amount of BP really feasible to gain from such a gain (considering that a decent chunk of BP comes from Unhooking, Healing, and getting chased none of which really happens if the killer is just face camping Survivors).
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Just to add on to this thread to hopefully push action onto the devs, in a game where a Survivor either gets Tunneled out really early or just dies on hook early, that Survivor will earn somewhere from 4-6k BP. Meanwhile a survivor who hooks 2 survivors and face camps them will earn around 10k blood points. This is assuming they only get 2 survivors and they are very much more likely to get multiple in Solo Queue because of survivors not doing Gens and instead just sneaking around and literally just watching as their teammate dies on hook. So not only do the survivors that got face camped to death on hook not get to even play that round, but to add insult to injury they also get next to no BP while the killer actually gets a decent amount?
Honestly I believe the proposals I made would solve most of this and encourage players to play DbD in a much more healthy manner that would be more fun for everyone.
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@Onyx said:
Just wanna comment on your suggestion of "I also suggest merging the old and new systems". The old system is technically still there. If you get a character to P1 you unlock the tier 1 version of their perks on everybody. However, what a lot of people don't seem to realize is that, it also unlocks them for bloodwebs. That's right, after that first P1 you will be able to find tier 2 of the perks in bloodwebs and after that tier 3. So if you are the type to only level one character, just P1 everybody else then level up the perks for your favorite character.
I think a change that should happen, that nobody seems to have asked for but I think is necessary, would be to reduce the size of bloodwebs. Before you could level a character to level 40 and stop, since you'd unlock the teachabales anyway. Now you have to level up to 50 and then prestige. Those 10 extra levels are pretty hefty and add up. The solution would be to either change the level point from 50 to 40 or make all bloodwebs smaller so that when you do reach 50 you pretty much unlock just as many nodes as you did before when you only had to stop at 40.
So I actually did know this and did acknowledge it, but when I said merge the old and new system I kind of just meant when the shared perks were learned/gained which was around level 35-40 where you could already get all 3. The reason I wanted this is because in the old system you didn't need to prestige at all to get the perks you wanted unlocked for other characters so you could spend less blood points on a character and once you unlocked all the perks you wanted you could just level up your favorite character rather than having to prestige each character you wanted perks from.
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@Seraphor said:
I don't think the Anxiety effect would be all that fair.
Sometimes standing still doing nothing to evade the killer is the right thing to do.
Imagine you've been playing pretty stealthy so far so you've accrued a fair amount of Anxiety. Then suddenly the killer comes to patrol by you. You're forced to hide somewhere at that pointn but then you risk tiering up your Anxiety and ibstantly alerting the killer to your location.
Your other two ideas sound like good bases for some new survivor perks.
Mmm... while I understand the concern about the Anxiety suggestion, at the same time, I don't really see a situation where it would be unhealthy for the game considering the amount of time it would take to accrue a level of Anxiety. Like a Survivor can still be stealthy, but this pushes those survivors to actually DO things like Generators. If the Survivor is stealthily stalking the Killer to aid someone who is currently being chased by the killer, then chances are that Survivor is in the killer's Terror Radius. The only situation I see where a Survivor would be JUST stealthing and not helping with Gens or anything of that sort that i can think of is if they're just waiting for Hatch to open after the other Survivors die so they can escape themselves in which case I feel as though that is a behavior that isn't exactly healthy to the game.
@dugman said:
The devs have acknowledged they want to find an ingame mechanism to steer killers away from literal facecamping but haven’t found a system they like yet. The ones they experimented with so far apparently either weren’t effective or broke something else in the game. Maybe they’ll come up with something someday but I’m not holding my breath. 🤷♂️
As far as ideas people have suggested, the ones above seem a bit too complex. I think the idea I like best so far is to simply pause or greatly slow the hook timer when the killer is within X meters of the hook. By carefully choosing X you can entice the killer to be far enough away from the hook that a safe hook rescue is more likely but not be so large that the survivors feel no pressure to rescue the hooked player. Note also that this is in line with perks like Devour Hope, Make Your Choice and the new version of Monstrous Shrine which give incentives to move so many meters away from the hook. Basically if they make that type of incentive to move away from the hook or have the hook timer take a really long time to complete part of the base game it would directly impact face camping. (It still could happen hypothetically but it would be much easier for everybody who’s not hooked to escape.)
Hm... Idk, I feel as though even if there is more incentive to move away from hook, but no real punishment, Killers will still facecamp hooks. Like right now Blood Point gain is reduced for facecamping, yet we still have a decent number of killers that just facecamp. But honestly the reason why I suggested Buffs to Survivors for Unworthy levels is because it just addresses the problems that Survivors might face with a face camper in that they might just not be able to find Generators or something of the like and this just eliminates those factors and highly discourages the Killer from facecamping.