Maelstrom808
Maelstrom808
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- Maelstrom808
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Please don't be locked sets.
Please don't be locked sets.
Please don't be locked sets.
Please don't be locked sets.
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@Pulsar said:
I feel that a 90 second gen is completely fair. Like you've pointed out, situations where gens can take minutes or < 60 seconds should be ironed out.
Although, as an aside, I wonder how much of the fun of this game has been lost in our endless pursuit of balance.
I think all perks related to healing, moving, gens, etc. need caps on how fast/slow you can make it.
In regards to fun being sucked out for balance, a lot of the time when it comes to this kind of stuff, fun for one side means misery for the other.
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@Pulsar said:
Greatly depends on the pallet, the quality of Survivors and the state of my game.
This. Too many variables for one simple answer. I will say that if I have the time and it's feasible at that pallet, I will play the mind game just because it's fun.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558675#Comment_3558675
I would guess they remove those outliers along with DCs, at least, i would hope they would. If they don't, then it at least explains why they desire a 60% kill rate to consider something "balanced" instead of 50%.
The problem is you cannot have real world balance with a 60% kill rate. It sounds like it makes sense on the surface, but it doesn't work, at least not in any manner I've been able to figure out. 60% kill rate, means a 40% individual survivor escape or win rate. If this is balanced, then you need a 40% killer win rate (3k or better and the kill rate is not the same thing as win rate). To achieve those numbers, as far as I have been able to work out, you end up with an outcome distribution curve that looks nothing like reality, and an abysmal 20% survivor team win rate (3E or better).
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When survivors miss a normal skill check they get locked in a "head down in shame" animation for 5 seconds, then walk over to the nearest hook and throw themselves on it.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556193#Comment_3556193
I know what you are going to say next if I say "Yes", so before you say it, the table that @Maelstrom808 posted is wrong. The real average for the "AK per match" according to his data is 2.114545454545455 survivors killed per match. The best part is that those "AK per match" are not even accurate as they are individually ceiling rounded (if we take the data on the rest of the table, the real "AK per match" of Skull Merchant is 2.656 per match with a kill rate of 66.40%) and the overall kill rates is also wrong as the real average is 52.84393939393939% kill rate, making the real "Overall AK per Match" 2.113757575757576.
So, I don't know how he got that 2.25 "General AK per match" and that average kill rate but he got it wrong, as according to his table the real averages are 52.84% for kill rate and 2.11 for survivors killed per match if we round them correctly.
With this cleared, the answer to your question is "ON AVERAGE, yes, that would mean mostly 2K with rarely 3K". But I'm sure you are going to simply ignore everything that has being said about balancing, skill factor, some players doing more wins or losses than others and that number being an average yet again and ask me "then how it is possible that by the distribution of "3-4k" indicates that killers are winning 45.7% of their games, then?" or something like that proving, yet again, that you don't know what an average is and/or you just decided to ignore what has being already explained and keep going till you are "right".
So go ahead, have your false "Catch you, I win!" moment if that would make you to at least stop with your nonsense already.
Here's the full spread sheet as promised, sorry it took a bit longer that anticipated, work sucks.
So anyway, you don't need a 60% kill rate to achieve a balanced game. In fact, you realistically CAN'T achieve a reasonable balance with that as that sets the individual survivor's win rate at 40% which of course to be balanced, needs the killers win rate at 40%, which because of weighting of each outcome, means that 1) The survivor team win rate would be so low that it would be an awful experience and 2) getting anything in real world that looks like the curve you'd have to have would be impossible.
This is basically what the 60/40 curve looks like:
That is just not going to happen.
Even perfect balance isn't going to happen with just nerfs and buffs as you basically cannot have any 2k outcomes:
My initial thoughts on balance was just to balance the outcomes, so every outcome has the same probability, but you ened up with a pretty significant gap between the killer win rate, and the individual survivor win rate. so while it's balanced against the survivor team, playing survivor ends up being considerably easier to get an individual win than playing killer.
Really the Twins data here provides for one of the most balanced realistic curves I've seen, even beyond my own tinkering of trying find the most realistic balanced outcomes.
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Kill rates are only a part of the picture when it comes to balance, and it seems most people don't really understand what they represent.
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I think it's fine, but i also don't play on controller. The only way I'd really change it would be to scrap the increased wiggle effect, and replace it with a Hindered effect on the killer but also a corresponding slow down on wiggle progress. The idea being the killer has the same chance to get to the hook as a normal carry, but it takes longer to get there, buying more time for gens, and opening up sabo plays for teammates.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556193#Comment_3556193
I know what you are going to say next if I say "Yes", so before you say it, the table that @Maelstrom808 posted is wrong. The real average for the "AK per match" according to his data is 2.114545454545455 survivors killed per match. The best part is that those "AK per match" are not even accurate as they are individually ceiling rounded (if we take the data on the rest of the table, the real "AK per match" of Skull Merchant is 2.656 per match with a kill rate of 66.40%) and the overall kill rates is also wrong as the real average is 52.84393939393939% kill rate, making the real "Overall AK per Match" 2.113757575757576.
So, I don't know how he got that 2.25 "General AK per match" and that average kill rate but he got it wrong, as according to his table the real averages are 52.84% for kill rate and 2.11 for survivors killed per match if we round them correctly.
With this cleared, the answer to your question is "ON AVERAGE, yes, that would mean mostly 2K with rarely 3K". But I'm sure you are going to simply ignore everything that has being said about balancing, skill factor, some players doing more wins or losses than others and that number being an average yet again and ask me "then how it is possible that by the distribution of "3-4k" indicates that killers are winning 45.7% of their games, then?" or something like that proving, yet again, that you don't know what an average is and/or you just decided to ignore what has being already explained and keep going till you are "right".
So go ahead, have your false "Catch you, I win!" moment if that would make you to at least stop with your nonsense already.
Hey thanks for at least looking through the work. Yes in the screenshot, the numbers in the "Ideal" are incorrect because I had set the kill rate to 60% to test some things elsewhere in the sheet. The screenshot was not to prove any numbers, just to show I'm not casually doing napkin math on this. The numbers have long been reverted to true calculations, and this had no effect on my conclusions.
As far as rounding, it does not matter if the AK per match was rounded to 2 decimal places for the sake of keeping it easily accessible visually. Largely because AK per match doesn't matter. It is simply another way of expressing kill rate and is a redundant stat that mostly serves to satisfy curiosity. That's also why it currently sits at the end of all the hidden calculation cells in the sheet.
When I get home from work I'll post functional shots of the whole sheet and go into depth a bit on my points on how this all works.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555423#Comment_3555423
Let me try it for the final last time in very short. I need you to read first, then post, since you completly ignored what i even said and you just repeated yourself. What you are saying is not crazy complicated science.
Your explanation on wins might be true, i am not denying that at all! The math might not be 100% correct, but the overall concept is for me very sound.
But. it. does. not. matter.
An imaginary "win" is completly irrelevant for the game and it is a tremendous mistake if the developers want to aim for that nonsense. Because in the end of the day, this game can only be balanced around 3 things:
- Hook count
- Killrate
- A mix between both of those
Your examples actually even prove my point. If 60% killrate is fine, it is only fine for the imaginary "winrate" on killer. What does a "win" in terms of ballancing even mean? Why should anybody care for winning 40%, drawing 20% and loosing 40% on average?
If killer perform with a 60% killrate (no matter how that resulted!!) they perform above average. If individual survivors escape 40% they escape below average. Thats it. No more, no less.
Kind regards
To address a couple points. You CAN increase the kill rate and have the win rate drop. You can see it in the spread sheet i added above. The thing is you can only do it a few percentage points before the natural distribution of kills gets so out of wack that you simply will not see it in normal gameplay.
Look at Onryo for example. She has the closest numbers to a 60% kill rate and 2.4 avg kills, but her winrate is around 57%. You'd have to bring down the win rate around 16% without dropping her kill rate more than a percentage point and that simply isn't going to happen.
The other thing is "wins". I'm a big supporter of making up your own win conditions, but the reality is it comes down to what feels like a win to the average player in normal gameplay. For killer that's a 3k or better. Survivor is a little different depending on whether they play for the team or themselves. The game is aimed at them playing for themselves so that's the best approach to this, and what feels like a personal win to the average player is escaping via gate or hatch.
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I play all of them with the exception of a couple. Blight has never seen a public match, and Artist has only had a handful. Everyone else I play to some degree, whether it is a few I only play when I have a specific daily or tome challenge, or someone that I currently am enjoying a specific build on. Plague has most of my time, but lately I only play her when I want to stay sharp on her or for a challenge.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555368#Comment_3555368
And with enough people doing 0K and 4K, you will get an average of 40%. Seriously, I don't think the concept of an average is so complicated to be sp hard to understand.
And if getting too much 4K or 0K is not "an issue of balance", why are survivor non-stop asking for Nurse to be nerfed or killers asking for Trapper to be buffed? Maybe because of the balance and how they work they are able to get more or less kills?
And kill rates is a bad metric, if you only stick by the number without realizing the math and logic that explain why it need to be an specific number. Something that I already explained here, but all of you still try to deny with whatever comes up to your minds to do so.
Show me a distribution curve between 0-4k that results in 40% win rate for individual survivors and the killer, a 60% kill rate, and an average kill per match of 2.4, and I'll concede. I've been playing with this most of the day, and I don't think it works.
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Can you have a 40% win rate and a 60% kill rate? Yes, it is theoretically possible.
The problem is there is a natural inverted bell curve in the % of games that fall within the 5 outcomes for the killer. The highest amounts being 0k and 4k while the lowest is a 2k with 1k and 3k being in-between. This isn't an issue of balance, it's inherent within the current game design. There is no way that I've been able to work out to make a bell curve with 40% of the match results falling in 3k and 4k, while still maintaining a 60% kill rate.
The reality is what many have been saying forever - kill rates are a bad metric.
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I mean, if you simply look at the kill rates vs win rates you can see that they are way out of the 60/40 goal.
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If pre-dropped pallets is an issue getting downs, wraith has decent solutions through his addons. Also a hit and run using silent clapper and purple All-seeing.
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@GensByDaylight said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554013#Comment_3554013
Thats literally why I said "aside from slaughtering solo q more than SWF". Many people said that getting a down shouldn't be rewarded much more than the hook state and pressure. Pop completely violates what a decent size of the forums were saying.
Uh huh...and many people complain about the killer being rewarded for doing nothing (Ruin) and many people complain about the killer being rewarded for losing (NOED). Same thing if you flip the tables and look at survivor perks and complaints about them. The fact is people complain about strong perks, which Pop is, but it's not broken for reasons others have pointed out.
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@HugTechLover said:
Don’t let prestige fool you. I still have some p1-3 killers but I’ve got thousands of hours. Prestige does not indicate skill.
Same. 1700 hours, mostly killer, and my average killer prestige is 4-5. My highest is 12. High prestige means two things: someone wants to show they have high prestige, and/or they fish hard for addons, items, offerings, etc. That's it.
Edit: I'd also add that you are also more likely to see high prestige survivors because there isn't much need to play all the different survivors so your bp will likely get focused into a few characters as opposed to killer where you'll have people playing 30 different killers. I don't play survivor nearly as often as killer and my Ace is only two levels below my highest killer.
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Heh, my gamer tag is probably older than a large portion of the player base. At the time, it had a pretty dark origin as I felt it described me pretty well - drawing in and dragging down everything around me. 30 years later and I've changed considerably, but it's a good reminder of who I used to be.
Oh and the 808 comes from the drum machine as I've done electronic music on and off most of my life
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@Melinko said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552392#Comment_3552392
There is not many players that actually do this in game. I hope you actually do this but it's just interesting to read the forums were you'd believe every match was against a super oppressive SWF group and that killers don't tunnel on purpose.
But then there is the reality.
Every match for the past few weeks has been ultra sweaty, hard tunneling, killers. It's like people have never gotten a 4k before and are just super desperate for one.
I understand it when there are tome challenges up and you see Clown after Clown going for the 4k to get the outfit, but right now there is nothing that makes it a need.
Saw another person type it after a match, and I've adopted it as well. No more "ggs" it is now "hey, congrats on your first 4k."
To clarify a couple points:
- I'm able to play this way because I carefully cultivate my MMR to stay in a range where I can play this way yet not go against complete potatoes. If ignore it and just let my MMR stack up, I quickly find myself in a range where I routinely face survivors that are too efficient in gens and looping for me to keep up and make interesting games most matches. Skill issue? Probably. I just make sure I stay where everyone can have fun.
- I'm not actually against people tunneling. I do soft tunnel on occasion when survivors leave me little other option, usually if they are bodyblocking or playing altruism squads. I just don't think like the whole "eliminate someone as quickly as possible" style of play. It's almost as boring as camping. I think that some changes need to be made to nudge play towards rotating hooks, but still allow for tunneling in the edge cases where it makes sense but still allows for engaging gameplay.
- Just my own personal advice, but don't reward toxicity with more toxicity. It's much better to show you are 100% unbothered. If I get tunneled out as survivor and stick around to watch the game, I just "gg" and move on. It helps that it doesn't really bother me all that much, but I can only speak for myself.
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Afraid of tunneling? No, not really. What I hate is turning it into a 3v1 before they've even finished a gen or two. Even accidently, which happens too often (you miss someone going to second stage on hook, or mix up similar cosmetics).
I know even if you discount the player base that actively hard tunnels from the start, the vast majority of the remaining killers would just shrug their shoulders and be glad for an easy win. Speaking for myself however, it only ruins the game. I like the challenge of a 12 hook game. That's why I hated DCs, still hate people who afk or give up on hook.
Often once I know the game is over and I have it in the bag, I'll just let the remaining survivors go. The challenge is gone at that point, I don't care about the actual "win". I know I won, which is good enough for me, and they can get their bp and challenges done and we can go on to the next game. When I accidently tunnel someone out at 4-5 gens to go, we basically hit that point early and playing out the rest of the game is just going through the motions. I'd rather just afk and browse on my phone or something.
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@Beatricks said:
Eh, I really don't like the idea of making it easier to tunnel, but I when I'm memeing, chilling or want to let someone live, it would be useful to know not to hook them. I really don't think there's a good solution for this.
Auditory warning when you down a survivor on death hook. Non-abusable and saves games from accidently tunnelling someone out early. The best compromise you can have.
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There are occasional days where I am just not up for dealing with it, so I'll pop on lightborn if I see more than a couple flashlights. Honestly though, most of the time when I see 3+ flashlights, ESPECIALLY when they do a last minute switch, I'm a happy boi because I'm about to have a cakewalk game. It's easy enough to deal with and because I know what they are out to do, I can take the gloves off and go to town.
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The cool thing about this game is what it means to "win" is entirely up to you. Change your game for a while. Give yourself some goofy goal to achieve in the game that's open ended but with the understanding that you are going lose by convetional standards.
For example, load up a jump scare Myers with a Lery's offering and see how many jump scares you can get. Don't chase or injure just scare em off the gen then start giving the "yeah MFer" nod. Let everyone out at the end. Do it again and see if you can get more. I like to load up Nurse with Anxious Gasp that makes survivors scream when you blink over them and see how long it takes before they realize you are just screwing with them (and of course I load up on every scream causing perk I can).
Retrain yourself on what it means to "win" and you'll find that you start taking your enjoyment from other aspects of the game.
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Again, if you all are so worried about tunneling with it, just give us an auditory cue when we pick up a survivor on death hook. Simple compromise with zero downside.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549158#Comment_3549158
No need. You're not dumb, but you may not be fully focused on the game, which happens to every single player. It's not a crime nor unusual. However, I admire the jump you made to that conclusion when I had earlier said not being able to keep up is due to other distractions.
No, it's not distraction. When I'm online, with whatever game, I'm focused on the game almost to the point of it being problematic. Maybe it's no big deal for you, but for many of us, it's a problem and by association a problem for the survivors we play against.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549038#Comment_3549038
It's really not as complex as you make it. As with anything, the brain is processing many things at once. It's really impressive how much it can deal with and certainly all the examples you gave are there for the vast majority. The brain will retain what the most important bits of information are.
Counting hooks is rudimentary maths. It takes little use of the mind. You'd only not know if you weren't being aware (by that I mean that someone is distracted by something beyond the game mostly, like what to do later or not involved enough to care).
Well, I guess we can file it under an accessibility option for us dumb people. I can do rudimentary math and I can count hooks just fine. The problem is retaining that information in a flood of other information as well or remembering if the survivor you hooked was the Meg with the grey pants or the Meg with the same outfit but slightly darker grey pants.
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I have fun in both roles, but have always played more killer because I hate when someone else pays the price for my screwups. It makes survivor way more stressful for me.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
I wouldn't feel any changes are needed for seeing hook stages, since there is already a counter for overall hook stages and I presume most people playing will have a memory and the rudimentary knowledge of mathematics to keep track regardless.
It feels unnecessary to me, because all it would do at most is encourage a small handful of killers to target survivors. It doesn't really add anything more beneficial.
Basically, there are more pressing matters for BHVR to be pushing ahead with than something which will really do nothing overall.
Playing killer well, especially if your trying to rotate hooks means keeping track of:
- The locations and activities of each survivor.
- Which cosmetic model applies to each survivor.
- Suspected perk and item loadouts of each survivor.
- Status of each generator.
- Status of key environmental objects (God pallets, breakable walls.)
- Map layout for this particular game.
- Status and location of killer objects (totems, traps, etc.)
- and of course as is being discussed individual hook status of each survivor.
All while constantly re-evaluating your approach to the macro game as well as thinking through the micro game in chase.
It's a bit more taxing than just "rudimentary knowledge of mathmatics".
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I've said this before, if people are so concerned that showing hook stages to the killer would promote tunneling too much, at least implement some sort of obvious audio cue when you pick up a survivor that's on death hook. A music sting or something. This warns killers that are trying to rotate hooks that they are about to take someone out of the game. At the same time, it doesn't help tunneling killers at all because they were going to hook that person anyway.
Seeing hook stages would be way better so we aren't wasting time chasing that person in the first place, but an audio cue would at least be an acceptable compromise.
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I will usually ignore until they get lulled into a sense of security and they start getting a little too close. Then when i've got my hooks on the other survivors, suddenly turn on them when I'm in an advantageous position, like a dead zone.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/392098/why-should-killers-play-nice-and-fair
Change your win condition and you'll have a much better time with the game.
Here is what i do, and it works out great.
- If i'm doing tome, i focus on doing the challenge, getting the challenge done in a single game is a "win" to me
- At the start of the month on the 13th, i try hard to get to rank 1 as fast as possible (minus tome challenges as said above)
- After that, i do the following:
- Roleplay killer
- Use Rancor
- Attempt to hook every survivor 2 times without killing anyone. Sometimes you need to go out of your way to do this.
- After every survivor has been hooked, focus on maxing out your chase, brutality, and deviousness bloodpoints by hitting and downing survivors, but not hooking them.
- Once you max out your points, look for the obsession and "hang out" with them
- Once the gens are done, down the obsession with rancor, and kill them.
- Let the other 3 survivors escape.
This achieves a few things:
- You get your tome challenges done.
- You get around 36k bloodpoints
- The survivors generally get around 30k bloodpoints
- The survivors are usually happy that you let them go
- Your MMR goes down, making your following games more chill.
You keep doing this until your MMR gets low enough that you hit that sweet spot of "i can mess around and not immediately lose" and "the game is still interesting". Once the game gets boring, go tryhard a few games in a row, then switch back.
You'll have more fun. Trust me.
This is the way. Let this be both the path and guiding light, all praise to the entity.
Seriously though, if I hadn't switched to a similar style after a couple months of playing, I doubt I'd still be around.
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Most killers have maps that are rough and maps that are strong based on what they do and what might be good for one killer might be difficult for another. I don't see this as a bad thing. Personally I'd find it boring if every map was essentially equalized.
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It is, and there are bug reports on it.
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When I play survivor, bleeding out doesn't bother me too much much, but being so desperate for the 4k as to waste my time bugs the hell out of me so I do what I can to turn it into a "I'm not trapped in here with you, you are trapped here with me" situation. They were expecting to waste a couple minutes of my time, I'm happy to waste twice that of their's just out of spite.
I mostly play killer and I'm happy to slug against an altruism squad or when I know they'll get picked up, usually because they are on death hook while the rest of the team still has plenty of hooks to go so I'm trying to give them a chance. If they don't get picked up in a minute or so, I'll usually go back and pick them up myself and let them wiggle off. I never slug for the 4k. At most I'll go after the other survivor if they are right there and able to be downed immediately. If I can't catch them within a couple seconds I break off and hook the downed survivor. If the other gets hatch, oh well, I still won.
I definitely support a self bleed out option after being on the ground for 60 seconds or so.
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Through the match it doesn't make a difference at all to me. I rotate my hooks and get everyone on death hook before I decide how many I'm going to kill and who they'll be. That is largely based on how they played and acted. If all is pretty equal then the P100s are probably closer to the top than the bottom of that list because yeah, you put the time in to stand out sooooo...yeah.
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@JoaoVanBlizzard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534522#Comment_3534522
Not that I find the Op nurse, but the way certain players use her is weird, it seems they even use some tracking hack because I dodge the first blink and she goes straight to where I am even if I run behind her in a space short of time, how can that?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying but when nurse blinks she can still see what's going on around her and change the direction she's facing in mid blink. This means she can see you dodge or juke the first blink while she's in the middle of it and set up to immediately use the second blink to go to where you dodged to.
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@LadyOwO said:
I don't mind playing against a xeno. The problem is tail strike hits all the way from Jupiter. Getting hit by tail strike whenever you are clear over a pallet or window is Dumb af. Plus the anti turret add-ons xenomorph can use make using turrets completely pointless.
That's the whole point of the tail whip. It wouldn't be very useful if it just was basically M1 range.
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Any bugs aside, and barring any abilities like haste or hinder, 4s is the difference between PTB and Live if you just make distance. It takes 13s on live to catch back up after the missed attack. It was 17s on PTB.
Survivor moves at 4.0m/s. Times 3 second cooldown, they move 12m.
Live killer moves at 2.0m/s. Times 3 second cooldown, they move 6m. After the cooldown, the survivor has gained 6m. Killer now moves at 4.6m/s. It takes 10s to recover the ground they lost.
PTB killer moves at 1.2m/s. Times 3 second cooldown, they move 3.6m. After the cooldown, the survivor has gained 8.4m. Killer now moves at 4.6m/s. It takes 14s to recover the ground they lost
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@Skittlesthehusky said:
i'm personally not bothered by them, i play the game as per normal despite being knocked out of crawler mode.
This. Sometimes they knock me out, sometimes I can destroy them or skirt them enough that they don't have time to knock me out. If I lose the power, it's not the end of the world, I'm decent enough of an M1 player that I can do alright.
I see xeno's main power as the tunnels. Between the speed, stealth, and footsteps info you get from them, I don't mind too much if I lose my tail whip for a bit as long as I have the ability to play around the turrets to some degree. At the moment, it feels like a good balance.
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Just needs more grass for traps but qside from that, it's pretty great.
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@Tsulan said:
How does the Queen fit into a tunnel?
Same way a 120lb dog can get through a gap the size of a softball in my fence, it just freaking does.
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Lethal Pursuer on Killer and unsurprisingly, Distortion on survivor.
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It should be able to distinguish between one person DCing/quiting vs the server going belly up and all players in the match being DC'd at the same time. This apparently isn't the case, but it should be. I know it can't tell if a player pulled the cord or legit got dropped but if everyone on the server drops at once or the game doesn't end in a natural way, that should be detectable.
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So a couple of things:
1) These discussions always devolve into
Survivors: "Stick!"
Killers: "Carrot!"
Survivors: "Stick!"
Killers: "Carrot!"
You need both. Complex problems usually require complex solutions. A single silver bullet is not going to solve it.
2) Everybody's play experience is different. Different regions, different MMRs, different times and days, different perspectives and outlooks.
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I'm perfectly happy with xeno, and it was a good moment to go with some tried and true mechanics with a bit of a twist. They stepped out of the box with Singularity and SM and it didn't work out all that well so it's actually nice to have a bit of a return to basics, so to speak.
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Nah. MAYBE MFT, but it really doesn't bother me too much right now. The top perks right now on both sides are fine. If they want to bring down usage rates, they need to buff the useless and trash perks for more choices.
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Basekit DS doesn't remove the ability to tunnel, it just makes it considerably more painful to do so. You yourself said how prevalent tunneling is. You shouldn't have to basically go into matches with three perks just to stop from being tunneled. If it's that bad (and it is), it needs core gameplay changes to address it, not a bandaid perk.
On the camping thing, it's tough because a survivor shouldn't be able to get free unhooks by bombing the hook, and a Killer shouldn't be able to get free trades just by facecamping...and in the middle of all this is the guy stuck on the hook waiting for everyone to figure all this out.
Likewise as killer, I shouldn't be penalized because I hooked and went out to find another survivor who leads me back to the hook and now gets rewarded for doing so, even though I'm trying to play in a healthy way that doesn't involve camping and tunneling.
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@Biscuits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513315#Comment_3513315
Well get ready because they are currently working on a counter to camping and they are still brainstorming ways to reduce tunneling. The developers have at least awknowledge that they see the two tactics as troublesome.
I am not advocating to remove them entirely. I want it to be a gamble like I said before. I want it to be a risk for a killer to take, and think twice before doing it every game. It should be a last ditch effort move, not an all case effort move like it is now.
All they have to do is buff DS back to 5 seconds and add a similar perk for when a survivor is hit near a hook.
I'd be fine with a basekit 5 sec DS (still deactivating in EGC). Answers shouldn't be perks. Doesn't impact 95% of my gameplay. Something similar for hitting near a hook though, no thanks. Maybe after 30 seconds has elapsed from the time the survivor was hooked, but survivors ahouldn't be able to hook bomb for free the second you put a survivor up there.
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@Biscuits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513263#Comment_3513263
If everyone tunneled and camped, it would get fixed a lot sooner. Beacuse instead of the survivor population slowly dying like it is now, you would see it fall off a cliff. So yes, you should play as dirty as possible, because nothing gets fixed unless the devs see it as an issue.
I don't think people are just dicks to be dicks, they want to win and that means playing dirty. But it's a competative game, so dirty things should get patched way faster than it is currently getting fixed in DBD.
I think tunneling should be a gamble like it use to be with old DS. The killer shouldn't always feel compelled to tunnel like they do right now. There is no reason not to tunnel someone right now, so why would you expect them not to? There should be mechanics in the game that severely punishes tunneling if the killer plays poorly or the survivor plays well.
I think camping should be taken out back and shot however, it takes no skill and no one enjoys it. It's literally just bad game design.
I get what you are saying and in a few ways I agree. Hard tunneling and face camping at 5 gens is quite frankly boring as hell for me which is the biggest reason i don't. I do like having a game where both I and the survivors are having fun, but mostly playing like that just isn't fun. I like the macro play (which is why Plague is one of my favorites).
I'm against removing options so I don't like the idea of just making it impossible to tunnel or camp, and I think that they are fine in small tactical usage, but when it's your only strat, it's the most effective strat, and it's in play from the first second, that's a problem. I prefer an approach where they both nerf it and buff spreading hooks - to the point where it's more effective to spread hooks than it is to tunnel someone out straight away, but the option is still available for when it would make sense over spreading hooks (and those moments should be rare).
As far as tunneling and camping to push changes through, no thank you. I'd rather switch to survivor full time and face it than do it myself. That's not going to happen though because while I do like playing survivor occasionally, I'm not particularly hip on people relying on me or vice versa.