Laluzi
Laluzi
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I'm dreading it. Both of these killers are pub stompers. Plague genuinely is a strong killer even if survivors know how to counterplay her, so I can accept her needing minor nerfs, but I'm afraid she'll get the Skull Merchant treatment. And Pinhead is pure pub stomper. The only thing he has going for him outside of survivor noncommunication are a few nasty addon combos and box spawn memorization. His active power is extremely high skill floor, low yield.
OTOH, they buffed Pig despite her always having disproportionately high kill rates, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was because they knew how much backlash would come out of nerfing Pig, what with the longstanding meme.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800423#Comment_3800423
I think Spirit's nerfs were worse. She was a jump scare killer that was so silent that she could grab people off of generators… and BHVR gave her directional phasing audio, and later buffed this audio so it's no longer affected by audio occlusion. She was also heavily affected by the map reworks, because the increased line of sight breakers (combined with audio occlusion), made it much more difficult to hear survivors while phasing.
The problem is this game has fake tier lists, based on less than 0.0001% of the players, where Spirit is ranked really high, so people pretended the nerfs weren't impactful. But remember there used to be floods of complaints about Spirit on these forums every week, where she was constantly being complained about… and those complaints are mostly gone now. Obviously, the nerfs are much bigger than people are admitting.
The same applies to Nurse and Blight, which also caused constant complaints on these forums…. but notice those have mostly gone too.
BHVR absolutely has done the "let's nerf a killer over and over until most of the complaints stop" thing before.
I think my counter to this is that the nerfs in all of those cases were warranted. Those were all the strongest, hardest to counter, and, with MMR caveats for Nurse, the most commonly encountered killers once you factored out the killers that everyone has automatically unlocked. (Yes, Spirit fell off after her first nerf and people still acted like she was S-tier in a time where it was just the Nurse and Blight show, but she was S-tier once and Nurse and Blight remained top dog much longer than that.) The purpose of those nerfs was to kick those characters back to regular killer strength and pickrate - perhaps with the exception of Nurse, who's always existed in an area outside of DBD's game design and it feels like they were trying to make her more annoying to play than anything else. So, closer to what happened here.
Skull Merchant wasn't that strong, or common to face. Everyone just hated her, and not entirely rationally. She was nowhere near meta and they gutted her on the same level they gutted the meta killers, so instead of having an average or situational killer left over, you have a powerless one.
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I don't like this game mode at all and I'm really annoyed that they've added limited licensed content that forces me to play it. More than anything, it hurts my eyes… but it's frustrating to play from both sides, and it removes the best part of the game (the chase) in favor of jumpscares that get old very quickly. And it doesn't help that certain killers have crazy synergies with the mode so of course all my survivor games are against them.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800250#Comment_3800250
I agree that SM exceeds the norm give up rate and I also agree it's largely due to her rep. That said I still think it's wrong to completely gut as a solution to the problem esp since we don't have an ETA on when the rework will happen. My whole issue with the SM nerfs isn't that she being nerfed but she being nerfed as a way to stop ppl playing her so the devs can take their sweet time reworking her. I mentioned couple of times that if the devs was transparent and came out to say "We know SM is a flawed killer and needs a complete overhaul. So we decided to nerf her heavy for now but we have a rework for her in two or three patches from now." Then I wouldn't complain and angry.
But that's what is happening here, no where in the dev blog was mentioned they was going to rework, we as a community had to find out by one random dev comment on a reddit thread and Mandy saying something on Oh Tofu stream. On no official channel was it said they had plans to rework her. On top of that the only timeframe we got for this rework is that it be done later next year. Knowing BHVR that could mean up two years. Gutting a killer and keeping them useless for more than 6 months is wrong, and bad game development. SM, Freddy and Myers reworks all should be thier top priority not doing some small changes to a killer like plague or pinhead. Shoot I think those three killers reworks are more important than releasing a new killer or chapter.
Oh yeah, we're agreed there. "We don't know what to do so we're just soft killing Skull Merchant until we address her sometime in 2026 or whatever" is not a professional or fair solution. I'd accept it if they had a date for a rework lined up and it was in the near future, but if they did, they would have gladly announced it, and we already know they have a backlog of higher priority updates already - they've already shared their roadmap and this is as far as Skull Merchant went on it. So she could be left in this gutted state for a while. I guess I'm just saying that I understand why they're flailing. The usual solution didn't fix her.
Though they fumbled this one pretty bad. A lack of official-official transparency with some seemingly unsanctioned official transparency that confirmed what everyone suspected but they resolutely don't want to say out loud is… not the best look.
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Killers conceptually were probably meant to have abstract names, but I'd bet they ran into a few license holders who insisted on the iconic name and the rule eventually got slackened, hence killers like the Demogorgon, the Ghost Face, and the Good Guy existing alongside the Nightmare, the Mastermind, and the Shape.
No explanation for the Skull Merchant, though. That was just badly conceived on all levels.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800075#Comment_3800075
I don't know...as a legion main I see a decent number of survivors DCing or giving up against me.
Same with me and Plague. People give up against all three of those killers; they're some of the least popular to verse powers. The point I'm trying to make is that… hm. Let's say there's a baseline for quit rates, a certain percent of survivors who will bail against any killer they don't like, and certain killers that people don't like more than others, so they get more ragequits than others.
Skull Merchant exceeded that norm. She got people who did not normally quit games to immediately hit next, and that's not because her power was a normal kind of unfun to experience in DBD, it was PTSD over matches that took forever to end. Her original mass quit rates were something DBD had rarely seen before (and always signified something unplayably bad, like OG Legion), and while it got better after they reworked her, it never normalized to regular "I don't like this" levels. People still hated her and refused to even try to play against her. Hence her kill rate eclipsing that of the other disliked killers… and every other killer in the game.
If I play Plague, someone might DC at start or give up on first hook every 5 games. With Skull Merchant, it's a coin flip for me to have a game where all three of my teammates try to play the match. Worse odds, even. Maybe 60% someone quits within the first minute. Is this anecdotal evidence, yes, but her grossly inflated kill rates support it. Her reputation is through the floor and I don't know if it can be repaired without starting over.
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I had a really scary match with a Myers earlier today. It didn't help that there was an AFK Claudette he could farm to his heart's content, but no matter how much I swiveled, I could not see the guy stalking me… just the sound effect followed by an instadown lunging out of the dark. I've had a few Ghostface matches today, and even if you can't see him, you'll get the reveal noise if you keep the camera moving and you know to start running. Myers is silent.
Least scary killer is Vecna. The items give you so much information about where he is that it's halfway to playing a regular match.
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My thoughts echoed. I like the cypress mori basekit, and the system is way less disruptive than the original proposal. However, I dislike changing existing moris to bloodpoint offerings for three reasons.
One - we already have more than enough bloodpoint offerings and only like two or three out of the entire spread are worthwhile. Conditional bloodpoint offerings are a huge downgrade from puddings unless the reward is truly massive, like 100k bonus for getting the 4k. OP mentions the cypress mori and the reason why nobody uses it over the other two moris; why would you want to bring an offering you potentially can't use? It's not even a question of whether you'll win or not, because hatch turns the last kill into a coinflip.
Two - if the bonus is worth getting, then people are going to sweat for it, which means more slugging for the 4k and that's not fun.
Three - existing moris already had functionality that they are now losing. That functionality is minor, but I think it's worth preserving, especially when the alternative is another worthless BP offering. For some people, a mori is a situational counter to DS and saves. For others, it's a chance to show off their killer's animation to everyone and send every survivor off with a spicy finisher - this is particularly desirable on killers that are just released, when everyone wants to see the mori. And for other killers, Ghostface in particular, a mori is a chance to meme. Can't do funny moris, or get photobombed by a survivor with a lute, if they only work once everyone's dead.
Devour Hope will still exist, so none of this is entirely gone, but I just don't see the point in creating yet more bloodpoint offering clutter when there's nothing wrong with what moris already do.
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Mori changes were both unnecessary and unwanted. They're not nearly as bad as the previous iteration, and I'm happy we aren't getting the whole slug situation with ruined DH and Rancor again. But they're still pointless negative changes, and I don't get why mori offerings themselves are being changed into yet more bloodpoint offerings, which will be vastly inferior to puddings simply because they are conditional. A pudding is a guaranteed extra 20-35k - even when a killer performs badly, they'll score near 20k. If a killer nails the round, that'll be closer to the 40k ceiling. So if an offering is only going to give me bloodpoints if I get a 4k, it better be giving me double that.
Just scrap the offering changes and it'd be fine. Let me use an ebony to mori all four survivors, whether I want that because I want to deny DS and pallet saves, whether I want that to show off the new killer's mori to everyone, or whether I want that because I want a survivor to come play Bardic Inspiration while their teammate gets stabbed.
RIP to prop mori kills, sometimes survivors crawling under a table and getting dragged out or getting roasted over a fire barrel was what made the mori great.
Distortion was overnerfed. Changing it so that tokens recharge in chase would have fixed every actual problem with the perk - survivors religiously avoiding aggro all game. The fact that Distortion actually worked to counter aura perks was not a problem.
I don't mind DMS getting nerfed? I guess? Not sure how I feel about this one. Removes room for killer synergies, which is a shame, but at the same time, I won't really miss it.
The perk buffs mostly look good, and I'm excited to try the new Crowd Control in particular, but I don't really get what's going on with Blood Rush now. And Zanshin Tactics sounds overpowered. There's no cooldown on it? Just 10 seconds of wallhacks every time the survivor goes near a pallet? There are way too many killers nowadays who can hit over pallets that can use this info without any opportunity cost.
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While I don't think nerfing the killer into the ground was the right way to handle this… I do think the Skull Merchant presents an interesting problem that I can understand them not knowing how to tackle. Her stats indicated she was wildly overperforming, but everyone knew those stats weren't accurate because so many people were giving up against her. But I'd argue the stats are also inflated because between her changes and her second tl;dr power, many players didn't actually know what her power did, and would use the wrong counterplay (a big one being people thinking drones would detect you if you were sitting on a gen. It was very rare for me to play against SM without at least one teammate being afraid of gen drones, when loop drones were the actual threat.)
And she wasn't fun to play against, she was the most brainless type of antiloop killer with irritating stealth, but the droves of people hook suiciding on sight was a holdover from her Chess Merchant days. You don't see this kind of immediate and widespread refusal against other unpopular killers, like Pinhead or Plague or Legion, even though they are arguably more annoying to verse than current (pre-nerf) Skull Merchant. The extreme hate was a reaction to something that didn't really exist anymore… and I'm fairly sure that hate will continue as long as her identity persists.
I think reinventing her is the only way to go at this point, with entirely new mechanics that work in an entirely different way, maybe even a different visual for the power, so that nobody can mistake her for how she was before… and ideally it has to be with a power that's simpler than her second incarnation (because it was so complex and riddled with conditions that most people didn't understand it beyond Drones Bad.)
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@drsoontm said:
43% more than 15 seconds
24% more than 35 seconds
When I play killer, depending on the situation, I tend to slug.
In my book, the chance to hurt a survivor is better than hooking.
And you also have to compose with flashlights, flash-bangs, …
All this makes picking up immediately less than optimal.
Don't forget how common it is to get a down next to a pallet or a gen. Cleaning up after the down already adds a few seconds onto that 15s timer.
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A big part of it is selection bias, people remembering bad games much more strongly than they remember ordinary ones. I encounter a killer who bleeds everyone out and humps the slugs less than once every hundred matches, but I'll mald on that game more than the rest put together.
So while I distrust statements like "someone gets slugged every game" and take most of it as exaggeration… I also wouldn't be surprised if some people who are complaining about slugging every game had other factors going on. For instance, if you bring blinds or sabo, you're going to see more slugging than usual because that's part of the counterplay to your playstyle. Same if you're aggressive about finishing gens in a killer's face - if a killer downs someone nearby and you stick it out, they're going to abandon their down and go after you when normally they'd pick up the survivor. And a player who BMs will probably have a statistically above-average number of bleedouts or killers gloating over their body before they hook them.
And of course, killers like Twins, Plague, Oni, and Myers are going to slug because that's how their power is designed.
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@baharuto48 said:
Myers must be so difficult to use in this mode.
Double edged sword, in my experience. Hard to find people, but they can't see you stalking them if you do it right, and then you're an undetectable insta-down, which is pretty terrifying to verse. But then smart survivors will just hide in weird spots for the entirety of your tier 3, so realistically all you can do is proxy the hook of whoever you popped T3 on.
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And if I play Knight, Plague, Legion, Skull Merchant, Clown, Hag, Pinhead, Pig, Singularity, Alien, Wraith, Doctor, or Trapper, survivors tell me not to play with braindead unfun game mechanics. And if I play Bubba they tell me I'm camping. And if I play Ghostface or Myers they DC when I gen grab them. And if I play Trickster they tell me not to play cringe. And god forbid I play something like Nemesis or Deathslinger or Twins, then they tell me to play a normal killer. So what does that leave me?
The list of killers that survivors actually want to play against can be summed up by a chorus of crickets. Maybe Demogorgon on a good day.
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Yeah, honestly. I'm only playing this because there's limited-time items in the tome. I appreciate the idea for Castlevania, and in theory it's a great idea for DBD, but Lights Out does not work with DBD's gameplay loop and so everyone cheeses it, which causes gameplay to be unfun for everyone. Survivors are encouraged to rush gens or hide because they're wildly disadvantaged and have virtually no protection from the first hit. Killers are encouraged to proxy camp because they have trouble finding anyone and will lose a survivor after a single pallet drop, so not hanging around a hooked survivor is risking letting everyone heal up, making the next down a struggle, and losing some gen pops to an unlucky search - which is a match-losing mistake. Chases are the heart of DBD gameplay and they sort of don't exist here, between the inability to get distance before that first hit and the inability for the killer to pursue the survivor after the hit. And powers are wildly unbalanced because of it, or even have more utility than they're meant to (looking at you, stalk killers and Dredge.)
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You can usually tell whether or not Mikey has a tombstone by how long it takes for him to reach tier 3 and how aggressively he stalks versus trying to hit you. But I think it's always worth getting in a locker until you've confirmed he doesn't have it.
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Let's please not encourage the dev philosophy of 'something is used, therefore it needs a nerf."
Windows is good but it doesn't do anything that isn't already in the games via comms or map memorization. There's nothing unhealthy about it. It's a perk that helps solos understand the state of the map first and foremost.
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Took them more than long enough. I never understood why people were so opposed to its inclusion. Whether you love it or hate it, it left a huge mark on the horror genre and it has the potential to bring in a lot of players to DBD, as well as a pretty cool map alongside the obvious killer. (Also, for everyone complaining that FNAF fans are kids… most of those kids are ten years older now than they were when they got into FNAF.)
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Hook suiciding to leave the game when it's barely started, and ruin the match for everyone left behind, is one of the most persistent nuisances in this game… but you can't seriously be complaining that the second last survivor dipping out to give their teammate a better shot at surviving. Like. Why should they waste 1-2 minutes of their own time just to sandbag their partner? What incentive do they have not to leave at that point?
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I'm concerned at the recent trend in map updates. There's a pattern where they're gravitating towards destroying strong resources and replacing them with very weak ones. Seems like every second story window has to have a drop right next to it, and we're getting loads of edge pallets that are so unsafe there's not only no way to run them, you can't even stun the killer with them because anyone with a brain will just walk around the side with absolutely no risk. Same with the new tiles they keep adding to generation, a good chunk of them are completely unusable and they come at the cost of a tile the survivor would have gotten value at.
Some loops are too strong and need to be removed, sure, I get why they removed double window house in Haddonfield and I agree… but survivors need actual resources they can play around.
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I am very, very guilty of trying to bodyblock for injured teammates, and instead bodyblocking them and getting them killed. I can feel the judgment as the Entity takes their souls away.
Also there was a game a bit ago where I was running blindly from an Oni and predropped a pallet. Turned out there was another teammate running behind me and I dropped the pallet in their face. Everyone stopped and stared at me and I had to go slow vault back to face the bonk of justice.
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Ehhh. I'd like to see these stats for myself, but I wouldn't like to see this for other players because I think any positive additions a performance report brings to the game would be drowned out by people grilling each other for being bad.
If DBD's occasional infodumps have taught us anything, it's that stats still aren't a good metric of what's actually happening in a match. Like, if I go down in chase in 8 seconds, my teammate might shittalk me for being a potato, but maybe I went down so fast because I was taking a hit for another player or diving for a hail mary unhook. If I used 10 pallets, but I had a 3-minute chase with those pallets, then I did great, but my teammates will kvetch that I used all the resources. Or maybe I don't have much repair time or unhooks because I spent a lot of that match running around while objectives were shifting and someone kept beating me to the unhook I was crossing the map for, or I was looking for a hex totem that was wrecking us. And killers are going to get slammed with all kinds of invectives now that there's mathematical proof that the killer tunneled or camped gens or whatever great evil they committed today.
I'm definitely curious, but I can't see this information being used for anything other than hurling accusations.
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@Royval said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772753#Comment_3772753
what do you mean people are too reliant if you make a build with the purpose of getting aura reading NO PERK should have the power to completely destroy a build you should have value no matter what I hope they gut distortion like they did STBFL eye for an eye
If you're going to claim that builds should always get value and hard counters are illegal, then Plague should pop out of existence whenever I run a healing build. Or Wraith, Billy, Blight, Nurse, and Wesker should vanish when I run Sprint Burst, Lithe, or Overcome because they can just ignore my speed boost and catch up instantly. If I have a sabo build or anti tunnel perks, I shouldn't be matched with Pyramid Head. If I'm Doctor, survivors can't bring Calm Spirit because my power is about making them scream, and Spirit should be exempt from survivors with Iron Will. If I have a locker build, I shouldn't go up against Iron Maiden. If I have a full hex build, I shouldn't get any survivors using Counterforce, Small Game, Detective's Hunch, or Overzealous, because any one of those will ruin my build. And if I bring a flashlight build, the killer can't have Lightborn or Franklins because I deserve to get value out of the build I brought. One perk shouldn't negate a whole build, right?
Sometimes people run things that your build isn't effective against. That's been a part of DBD since forever. It doesn't prevent you from winning, because perks are good, but they're only part of the tools in your arsenal at any given point. Distortion is not a flat counter against aura reading - if you have a full aura reading build, you will brute force through its tokens, and quickly. It's only a hard counter if you only have one source of aura reading that doesn't fire often, like Lethal Pursuer or Floods of Rage. And then it's just a perk against a perk, which is really not any different than Smash Hit vs Spirit Fury/Enduring or Autodidact vs Coulrophobia.
And I'm as annoyed about STBFL getting gutted as you are, it was one of my staple perks and they made it completely unusable on the killers I used it most on (Artist, Nemesis, Plague), but STBFL's nerf has nothing to do with Distortion and demanding reparations for some idea of equal suffering amongst the sides is a terrible way of achieving game balance, if that was even the intention.
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Right now, most players are playing 2v8 because it's time-limited and brand new, so 1v4 queues are bad. And everyone wants to play killer in 2v8, because that's the gameplay that's actually new and exciting, so 2v8 killer queues are awful even with the 400% BP bonus on survivor.
Basically it's just a bad time to play killer.
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It wasn't likely Knight would be on the roadmap because they just changed him. They don't have enough data to gauge his pick rate and performance, so they don't have a new direction they want to take him in yet.
The playerbase has made their thoughts on the changes extremely clear, but BHVR's silence on the matter sends an equally clear message that they're waiting for the data.
Knight will probably turn up on the roadmap around the same time from now as Billy and Skull Merchant's upcoming tweaks come from their last updates.
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My issue with Distortion isn't that it denies killer aura reading - people are too reliant on aura reading anyway, it's absolutely ubiquitous and most applications of it will chew through Distortion's stacks, so I see zero problem with limited denial of it. TR recharging isn't as good as people seem to think it is.
My issue with Distortion is that when people run it, they get their teammates killed faster because the killer's going to go after the people that show up on their radar. So if it needs a redesign, it's for that reason, not because it works.
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Oof. I'm glad to have the roadmap, but I'm really not happy to see the Finisher Mori system coming back (there are so many less disruptive ways to implement anti-griefing mechanics! Please don't ruin Devour Hope and slug races and mori photobombs again. I'm begging you guys.) And naturally the Plague tweak has me worried, since she performs well and it's probably a nerf. Good thing we're looking at Billy, Skull Merchant, and Twins, though? At least, I assume good thing because I'm assuming nerf, nerf, and QoL. If we're buffing the former two or nerfing the Twins, that's bad.
Though I think if Skull Merchant needs anything… her power is such an unreadable textwall and there's so much holdover sentiment from her old era that more often than not, my teammates don't actually know what she does. Some simplification would help immensely.
I like the perks up for change except Distortion - I don't use it, but I don't think it needs a nerf, I think it's just a symptom of how heavily we've leaned into aura reading everywhere. The issue isn't that it works, it's that pressure gets distributed too heavily onto non Distortion users.
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While I'm curious how detectable his new ambient sounds will be in the PTB, I don't think Dredge can ever be OP so long as locker placement remains inconsistent. A map like Swamp or Coldwind just gives him nothing to work with.
I don't think the remnant change will make him OP. He's still slower than the survivor - it's a 0.12 m/s increase. It'll make the remnant a viable game on a few more loops, but imo that just puts him next to a bunch of other killers who also have a power to make loops unsafe.
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I'm intrigued by this idea, because it's a built-in way to distribute lockers pretty evenly across any map. But my one reservation is that there would have to be safeguards so that a locker can never spawn directly next to a vault. Vaccuum lockers are evil, evil things.
Huntress in particular might also have issues with a locker in the middle of nowhere obstructing her throws where a low object like a chest wouldn't have blocked her angle, but I don't play enough Huntress to really gauge how much an issue the occasional high object in a loop is to her.
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@Mag1cian said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771908#Comment_3771908
No they woudn't, not everyone wants to hide their p100, otherwise people want to show it off and who doesn't can just swap to other character. The only players who benefit from this a new low prestige players which gonna make matches worse.
But that's why it was changed. As annoying as it is to have a baby player on your team, people seeing a P0 Meg and going 'oh hell no' was half the problem - and the killer seeing a P100 Meg and doing the same was the other half. Matchmaking gets borked when people leave the initial lobby it puts together, because to prevent longer wait times, it eschews MMR and just grabs whoever it can find to fill in the vacant spot.
I dodged baby teammates because the info was right there and solo queue is hard enough, but I've always held it was super bad for the game and it's for the best that we're removing avenues to lobby shop. That hypothetical baby Meg shouldn't have to wait 5 minutes to load into a match because all her prospective teammates saw she was brand new and walked out, and by the end of it, her lobby is a Frankensteined mess of players entering and leaving because "ew, a noob" or just frustration that this lobby is taking too long, so when the match finally starts, Baby Meg has a mismatched mishmash of teammates up against a sweatlord curveBilly who also shouldn't have been paired with a brand new player. And at that point, after getting her teeth kicked in, Baby Meg is probably thinking this game sucks. I'm not saying that's all that's wrong with the new player experience, it's a lot more than that, but it definitely isn't helping.
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@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772010#Comment_3772010
If 2v8 becomes permanent the only survivors left playing 1v4 will be 4-man swfs.
And me? Any survivor who likes flashlight saves or stealth builds or any kind of perk variety will choose 1v4. Any survivor who wants to play against a killer who isn't one of the OG 5 wants 1v4. Survivors who prefer a game where they have a better sense of what's going on and can feel safe knowing the killer is occupied prefer 1v4. Survivors who want to be able to loop without having a second killer show up and go 'lol no' need 1v4 - or survivors who don't want to have to dodge Huntress hatchets while looking out for Trapper traps at the same time, because 2v8 is chaos. Hell, I want 1v4 because 1v4 has Off The Record and it's way too easy to get juggled between the killers and forced out immediately in 2v8.
2v8 has draws, but there are things it does worse than the original mode, or just doesn't do at all. And I find that my teammates play differently when we're a huge swarm of survivors - from solo 1v4 to solo 2v8, people are way less altruistic in the new mode, or invested in keeping teammates alive as long as possible. There's less teamwork and more 'someone else will take care of that.' Also more sandbagging, part because there's just too many survivors not to run the killer into someone, but also part because Guides are always helpfully showing their auras to anyone who needs to ditch the killer.
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While I'd like 2v8 to become permanent, I think it's a fantastic add to DBD and I also think it wouldn't drown out 1v4 (while there are people who prefer 2v8, plenty of people are just playing it now because it's new and time-limited, it won't have this effect on 1v4 queues forever…) I think it should go away for a bit just so devs can cogitate on whatever data they gathered and make some adjustments to the roles, killer powers, map design and mechanics, etc. This is a very successful test drive, but it's still the test drive.
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
The worst part for me is that they openly acknowledge that Blast Mine has no other use than annoying other players, yet see no issue with that; wild take: don't put stuff into your game to purposefuly make it aggravating to play.
I run Blast Mine not because I want to annoy other players, but because it's a godsend for stun+blind challenges. It double counts and I don't have to provoke the killer in chase or scare them into picking Lightborn or Franklins in the lobby, and it doesn't become nearly impossible versus any killer that can hit over pallets (which is half the roster.)
But I've always thought Blast Mine was funnier to encounter than it was tilting, anyway. Love me a good old slow turn.
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It's really not. If killers got a 10% permanent haste buff and survivors got a 10% increase to Premonition, This Is Not Happening, and We'll Make It, killers got way more out of the exchange even though survivors got three times as many buffs.
Quality over quantity. Survivors got universal buffs to hook time and much less valuable buffs to meme perks. Killers got a universal buff via Scratch Marks and buffs to a few underused killers. It balances out.
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I'm super happy they're finally hiding prestiges in the lobby and buffing Dredge, especially making it quieter. The Blastmine, Wiretap, Flashbang, Diversion, and Mirrored Illusion changes are fun too. Deception might actually be annoying if it can be used multiple times in a single chase, but it's probably fine.
Not sure how I feel about Midwich, but I'll have to see how it looks in the PTB. And not very happy about the hook stage increase. It might be nothing, but honestly… tunneling is much more of a problem than camping, and camping is now only an issue on certain killers who can effectively proxy past the distance limit (Huntress, Deathslinger, Trickster, Billy, maybe Bubba.) I'm worried that it'll reduce killer pressure across the board instead of punishing proxy campers like it's meant to.
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Assuming P100s were bullies is why prestiges needed to be hidden in the first place. Players were dodging lobbies that got MMR matched to them because they assumed the other side was scarier than they actually were. And that meant the queue would then throw a random killer to the team next and it causes matchmaking to break down.
And on the other side, survivors would dodge low prestige teammates because they assumed they were bad players. I saw it, I did it myself when I saw P0 default survivors. Recently heard the tales of a Switch player who came to PC and ran a P0 Dwight for a while and got dodged more than half the time, and yeah. That's not something DBD wants to incentivize.
Showing prestige in the pregame lobby was always a bad idea and I'm glad we're finally doing away with it.
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I don't camp and I dislike campers, but I don't think the increase in hook time was the anti-camp buff anyone needed. I think it just makes hooks less urgent and decreases the survivor gen disruption that spreading hooks causes. It's not the end of the world for me, but I don't think it was a good change.
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@Neaxolotl said:
The only reason 2v8 works in current state is only because survivors are absolutely bad, full stacked 8 player squad would absolutely demolish any killers
I don't think bad is the right word to use here. It's just solo vs comms again. The comparative performance reduction of solos is made drastically worse because there's too many objectives to accurately gauge what your teammates are doing, regardless of icons - or what you should be doing, when normally you can rely on your own game sense no matter what. It's way too easy for several survivors to group up unnecessarily or for everyone to assume someone else is getting that guy in a cage across the map, because there's just too much going on you don't know about.
If survivors are on comms, efficiency spikes and gens will fly unless the killers are playing an insanely tight game.
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I don't really think that doubling up is the dominant strat, though. When two killers team up, unless they're both hyper-mobile like Wraith and Billy, what happens against non-confused survivors is that gens on the other side of the map fly at light speed. I've found two killers on opposite sides of the map, or two killers focusing on one side of the map and ending up with all remaining gens in a small area, have been what's worked best in my games.
If anything, the accusations I've seen that the mode is both horribly survivor-sided and horribly killer-sided suggest to me that it's decently well balanced. I don't think the roles themselves are balanced, Escapist > Guide = Scout > Medic, and Trapper needs help, but overall I think 2v8 is doing great for its first test run.
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I'm having a great time in both modes. Obviously killer is the preferred role, because it really adds a brand new change in how killer is played, where survivor is just added chaos. But even though I'm having games where both sides can dominate - one bad killer will really hamstring that team, but uncoordinated or not-interested-in-gens survivors are equally doomed - the flow of a match can change really quickly, where one side pulls victory from what looked like a strong start for the other, and I'm escaping more often than I normally do as survivor. And while I wish I could play more killer than the queues allow, the bloodpoints certainly don't hurt.
Maps seem pretty buggy, between the red fenceless tiles, invisible collision, and the hook bug (and why do totems still spawn?), Escapist is by far the best Survivor role and Trapper is by far the worst killer, but overall I'm surprised at how well balanced this mode is so far. And delighted that DBD did such a good job delivering what we've been asking for for so long. Everyone seems to be having a great time in the social media I follow and I'm having a blast with them.
My only complaint about the experience, and it's more of an observation than an actual complaint, is that survivor without comms is much worse than killer without comms in this mode. Two killers with basic game sense can effectively do their own thing and pressure survivors in different parts of the map, occasionally converging, but the info provided by survivor icons starts to fall apart when there's this many objectives. It's really common for swarms of survivors to go to the same hook, or for nobody to get the hook because they assume one of the other 6 players is dealing with it. I'm feeling that this is something that should be baked into the Medic role, some mini form of Bond or Kindred to help coordinate all the cross-map running.
(Also, because you can't take a hit when there are potentially two killers, altruism seems to go out the window once endgame's started. I've on several occasions had healthy people running in circles in an uncontested exit gate for 20-30 seconds while I was caged 15 meters away. Part of me wonders if survivor camaraderie is lessened when instead of having 3 teammates, you're just one of a swarm of players.)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768118#Comment_3768118
Can we have a checkbox to bypass the mandatory chapter video too? When I double click on the DBD icon, I just want to get directly to the main menu.
Please oh please oh please. I like watching the chapter video the first time, and then it's just a mandatory timewaster and extra click screen I have to wait for. (As memetic as it was to be called POOR by Vecna or be told that it wasn't programmed to harm the crew every time I booted up DBD…)
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I wouldn't mind getting this kind of awareness ad when it's released, but being asked to preorder it was a bit gauche. I wouldn't have really raised an eyebrow except for it feels DBD has gotten much more marketing-forward this past year or two; the FOMO cosmetics, the UI turning everything into the store, putting weekly freebies in the store so that people come and look, etc.
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Can't wait for them to add my mains. It's been an utter blast so far and I'd love to see this mode expanded.
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Mood. Experienced this a few times earlier.
I think a lot of people in 2v8 are just overwhelmed by all the stuff that's going on. Habits from 1v4 tell you to be wary of a terror radius when you really don't have to care in 2v8 until the killer is coming right at you, there's just too many targets for the killer to pursue. And the cages have everyone running all over the map without knowing who's going for the save. I find it very common that a horde of 2-4 survivors will be flocking to the same objective and wasting time.
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Gens go very fast when both killers aren't on two separate sides of the map bringing their A-game, but I've had plenty of games where killers dominated, and even in games they didn't, 3-5k was common. I think going from 3 to 2 hook stages is the wrong play - if anything needs to be changed about survivor, it's that Escapist needs to be nerfed a bit. Long chases are highly detrimental to this game mode and as it is, it's just way better than every other survivor role.
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I've found a lot of fat shame spots that the killer can't walk through.
Not sure why totems spawn in 2v8, and in some MacMillan maps hooks are spawning and causing problems - cages can spawn inside these hooks and be uninteractible.
Mostly I'm getting lots of lag spikes that are making it a little hard to play.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
the 2vs8 is 2 killer vs 8 survivors. regardless of what chase bonuses survivor gets, no loop is unfair in 2vs1. the strength of escapist is that it makes killer have to group up to down the single survivor but because you cannot have 8 escapist, you can chase all survivor with no escapist.
While this is technically true, going 2v1 against a single survivor is a losing strategy. It's only valid if there's several survivors in the same area or if it's the very end of the game. So having survivors balanced for that kind of pressure is not good for the mode.
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@scoser said:
It's too stressful and chaotic. I'd prefer they just bring back Chaos Shuffle instead.
Have you played both roles yet? Survivor is pure chaos but killer feels a lot more controlled, even if it's easy to get overwhelmed by survivor speed. I found it easier to identify what my objectives were as killer (protect this gen, commit vs patrol, let my teammate cook or help them out because there's four survivor auras running away from them), where for survivor I'm constantly getting yanked in twenty different directions.
Is lag a big problem for anyone else? I'm missing so many skill checks because my screen keeps freezing.
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I strongly recommend trying non-key hatch challenges in 2v8, by the way - old tome challenges do work in this mode. Hatch spawns at 2 survivors left and there are several (3?) hatches around the map.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Trapper should never have been added to this game mode. When maps are super big, and the optimal strategy is to zoom around the map to chase survivors, a killer whose entire power is "let's lock down a small area", is throwing the game.
Wraith is infinitely better than Trapper in this game mode, because at least Wraith can zoom around the map. Trapper would need major buffs to be useful in this game mode. Like, being able to remotely pick up traps, and trap setting times that are short enough to actually be useful in a chase. Nerfed Billy is even infinitely better than Trapper in this game mode, because he can at least zoom around the super big maps.
Yeah. I mean, he deserves to be here, he's the face of the game. And he can pull off some epic snowballs. But survivors have too much rapid pressure in this game for his playstyle to work, even without the issue the giant maps pose to him. They had the right idea giving Trapper more traps to start and a little speed boost while he sets traps, but it just takes too long for him to cross the map setting things up, and because the size of the map and number of survivors makes locking down an area near-impossible and you have to play the entire map, it's too easy for survivors to disarm his traps or for traps to go off in a part of the match he can't reach in time. He can provide a lot of assistance to the other killer, but they have to carry him for the first part of the match, and if they can't pick up his slack, the killers will be scrambling on the back foot for the entire game.
Should've made him start with all of his traps, maybe then he'd have a chance - but his lack of mobility and weakness to Double Pallets Everywhere is really noticeable.